DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[erwinrafael]

For two albums in a row, actually, DT played parts that sounded like something they would have played during the Falling Into Infinity era: S2N and the middle solos in The Alien.

[Kotowboy]

I'm loving the ' no ballads ' talk.. I'm not big on rock ballads as a whole. They have to be really good songs and not just 'we need some balance on this album'.

[Max Kuehnau]

which IIRC, is a first for any DT album to not feature any full on ballads

[emtee]

Not trying to change any minds. Just dropping in to say MP deserves all the accolades. I deposit this as evidence that he can do Bruford just 🙂

https://youtu.be/i7VQ7DHOzbM

[ReaperKK]

I'm loving the ' no ballads ' talk.. I'm not big on rock ballads as a whole. They have to be really good songs and not just 'we need some balance on this album'.

I'm with you on this. Rock ballads are usually pretty bad IMO. They come off as overly sappy, like "lets right the most minor thing possible".

[hunnus2000]

For two albums in a row, actually, DT played parts that sounded like something they would have played during the Falling Into Infinity era: S2N and the middle solos in The Alien.

FII? Now that's a hot sports opinion.

Not really hearing it at all especially the S2N and Alien reference.

[TAC]

For two albums in a row, actually, DT played parts that sounded like something they would have played during the Falling Into Infinity era: S2N and the middle solos in The Alien.

FII? Now that's a hot sports opinion.

Not really hearing it at all especially the S2N and Alien reference.

Yeah, I thought FII was void of all cool interesting and technical parts.

[Jinx]

I'm sure its already been mentioned but AVFTTOTW is only the 3rd album with a track the same as the album title after SDOIT and 8VM so its already in pretty decent company. I hope it lives up to that hype alone!

[Stadler]

Exactly. MP for the DT was, in addition to a great drummer, a driving force, a leader, lyricist, producer. A position worthy of respect, but it doesn't seem to be enough. He has to be made the great songwriter of the band. If not possible, in the master arranger.

The problem is that there is a portion of the fans who likes the MP so much that they want him to be a sort of Steven Wilson, Neal Morse, Gildenlöw. He isn't.

So what if they do?   Is anyone hurt by that?  In any event, not everyone is like that, but to generalize across anyone who likes Mike P's playing is no more valid or valuable than generalizing across Mike Mangini's "no groove" idea.   It's useless.    You either like him (either one) or you don't and I can't understand why that's not enough.  I can't understand why those that prefer Portnoy over Mangini - for any reasons:  groove, arranging, writing, because it's Sunday - can't just be "their opinion" and left alone.   And likewise to Mangini.  There are plenty of people here that gush over Mangini, and that's fine (he's a very talented drummer, anyone can see that) but as soon as someone gushes over Portnoy, as I sometimes do, they're labeled "apologists" and the very personal, subjective reasons why they gush are picked apart like facts on a trigonometry test when at the end of the day it really just boils down to "what do I like".  And I can't speak for anyone else, but "what I like" is not science.  I can see patterns in it, but honestly, I hear something/someone and I either like it or I don't.  It's really that simple. 

[TAC]

Here's what I know..

MP was the most exciting drummer to enter my musical universe since Neal Peart. Be backboned what would out of nowhere become my favorite band, one that I obsessed over like no other. Mike struck the perfect balance between ability and accessibility.

[emtee]

Here's what I know..

MP was the most exciting drummer to enter my musical universe since Neal Peart. Be backboned what would out of nowhere become my favorite band, one that I obsessed over like no other. Mike struck the perfect balance between ability and accessibility.

Indeed. Additionally, he was/is incredible in a live setting.

I love Mangini too, so I'm not here to argue with anyone. MP also has influenced 2 generations of drummers...maybe thousands.

[illusionist]

We are 11 years after MP left DT and MM took his place.
And STILL people can't get over the fact that DT have moved forward.
I guess we will be talking about MP vs MM for decades to come.

[TAC]

We are 11 years after MP left DT and MM took his place.
And STILL people can't get over the fact that DT have moved forward.
I guess we will be talking about MP vs MM for decades to come.

Well, I hope you didn't take from my post a couple posts ago. My point in posting what I did was to get away from the whole composer/arranger discussion.

I've personally never considered a MP vs MM angle. I do think it's interesting to note what, if any, effect that the change in drummers had on the band in a discussion.

For some people, DT without MP is less appealing, and that's OK. People don't have to "move on".
And as much as MP was an appealing part of the DT experience for me...I am more than happy with the way things have turned out. They really couldn't have gotten a better and more engaging person in his place.

[KevShmev]

Exactly. MP for the DT was, in addition to a great drummer, a driving force, a leader, lyricist, producer. A position worthy of respect, but it doesn't seem to be enough. He has to be made the great songwriter of the band. If not possible, in the master arranger.

The problem is that there is a portion of the fans who likes the MP so much that they want him to be a sort of Steven Wilson, Neal Morse, Gildenlöw. He isn't.

So what if they do?   Is anyone hurt by that?  In any event, not everyone is like that, but to generalize across anyone who likes Mike P's playing is no more valid or valuable than generalizing across Mike Mangini's "no groove" idea.   It's useless.    You either like him (either one) or you don't and I can't understand why that's not enough.  I can't understand why those that prefer Portnoy over Mangini - for any reasons:  groove, arranging, writing, because it's Sunday - can't just be "their opinion" and left alone.   And likewise to Mangini.  There are plenty of people here that gush over Mangini, and that's fine (he's a very talented drummer, anyone can see that) but as soon as someone gushes over Portnoy, as I sometimes do, they're labeled "apologists" and the very personal, subjective reasons why they gush are picked apart like facts on a trigonometry test when at the end of the day it really just boils down to "what do I like".  And I can't speak for anyone else, but "what I like" is not science.  I can see patterns in it, but honestly, I hear something/someone and I either like it or I don't.  It's really that simple.

I hear ya.  Aside from calling out his predictability at times (and what player after 30+ years isn't a lot predictable in their playing), I don't think I ever go at Portnoy for his drumming.  I always applaud his drumming skills, and I find the "Portnoy could never play the newer DT"-type posts laughable, since I am sure he could.  He would adjust the songs to his style. 

As for the first part of your post, no, no one is hurt by anyone thinking that Portnoy is a Neal Morse or Steven Wilson, but it's not reality.  That is where I push back, on the extra credit he seems to get in regards to songwriting.  As I said before, collaboration, where he seems to excel, is great, and is the hallmark of popular music, just don't tell me he is a Neal Morse or John Lennon or Steven Wilson or Paul McCartney, because he is not. And there is nothing wrong with that.  Songwriters like those guys are a rare breed.

[jammindude]

I think this has been discussed before, but weren’t we just recently talking about how this lineup has now existed for a longer period of time than the SFAM lineup? That just blows my mind.

[Enigmachine]

So what if they do?   Is anyone hurt by that?  In any event, not everyone is like that, but to generalize across anyone who likes Mike P's playing is no more valid or valuable than generalizing across Mike Mangini's "no groove" idea.   It's useless.    You either like him (either one) or you don't and I can't understand why that's not enough.  I can't understand why those that prefer Portnoy over Mangini - for any reasons:  groove, arranging, writing, because it's Sunday - can't just be "their opinion" and left alone.   And likewise to Mangini.  There are plenty of people here that gush over Mangini, and that's fine (he's a very talented drummer, anyone can see that) but as soon as someone gushes over Portnoy, as I sometimes do, they're labeled "apologists" and the very personal, subjective reasons why they gush are picked apart like facts on a trigonometry test when at the end of the day it really just boils down to "what do I like".  And I can't speak for anyone else, but "what I like" is not science.  I can see patterns in it, but honestly, I hear something/someone and I either like it or I don't.  It's really that simple.

I think this is missing the point to some degree. Yes, it's fine for someone to prefer MP over MM. The implicit problem imo is that a lot of people seem to (at risk of possible exaggeration) catastrophise about how DT have lost their internal driving force in terms of this kind of singular genius who carried the weight of all these different aspects with terms like "master arranger", which sort of goes beyond an opinion into an assumption of internal band dynamics (going from the subjective into the objective) in a way that supports their own bias. Again, there's no question that he still contributed a lot to that field, but it's not as if the band have gone "shit, where's the arranger? I don't know how to handle this" ever since MP went (not saying that you implied that btw). Meanwhile, with MM there's only really his own drumming to talk about and it's acknowledged that it's the role he mainly plays, outside of the odd thing here and there like lessons, some musicial credits (such as the Paralyzed riff) and the very rare lyrical credit. When people gush over MM, it's kind of hard to exaggerate, while because of MP's (rather impressive, if evidently not sustainable) juggling of responsibilities, there's a bit more potential for things to be stretched into factually questionable territory I think.

[TAC]

The implicit problem imo is that a lot of people seem to (at risk of possible exaggeration) catastrophise about how DT have lost their internal driving force in terms of this kind of singular genius who carried the weight of all these different aspects with terms like "master arranger", which sort of goes beyond an opinion into an assumption of internal band dynamics (going from the subjective into the objective) in a way that supports their own bias.

At the risk of exaggeration? 

[jayvee3]

Exactly. MP for the DT was, in addition to a great drummer, a driving force, a leader, lyricist, producer. A position worthy of respect, but it doesn't seem to be enough. He has to be made the great songwriter of the band. If not possible, in the master arranger.

The problem is that there is a portion of the fans who likes the MP so much that they want him to be a sort of Steven Wilson, Neal Morse, Gildenlöw. He isn't.

So what if they do?   Is anyone hurt by that?  In any event, not everyone is like that, but to generalize across anyone who likes Mike P's playing is no more valid or valuable than generalizing across Mike Mangini's "no groove" idea.   It's useless.    You either like him (either one) or you don't and I can't understand why that's not enough.  I can't understand why those that prefer Portnoy over Mangini - for any reasons:  groove, arranging, writing, because it's Sunday - can't just be "their opinion" and left alone.   And likewise to Mangini.  There are plenty of people here that gush over Mangini, and that's fine (he's a very talented drummer, anyone can see that) but as soon as someone gushes over Portnoy, as I sometimes do, they're labeled "apologists" and the very personal, subjective reasons why they gush are picked apart like facts on a trigonometry test when at the end of the day it really just boils down to "what do I like".  And I can't speak for anyone else, but "what I like" is not science.  I can see patterns in it, but honestly, I hear something/someone and I either like it or I don't.  It's really that simple.

I'd say simply because the very nature of a message board is to discuss things. Sometimes those discussions can get repetitive, but as long as things are kept respectful, I can't see any issue in people extrapolating on their opinions either.

We have a forum full of musicians, non musicians, drummers, non-drummers and everything in between. I personally really enjoy hearing differing opinions from some of those that understand the instruments far better and like the technicalities, and I also enjoy hearing opinions from those who aren't musicians and where sometimes it's just a far more simple, but not any less valuable opinion. It's all just pretty good fun to me..

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Portnoy would in fact NOT be able to play a lot of Mangini-era DT without stripping the parts down to fit what he can do now. It's not really a question. MM is a far more technical drummer and obviously that is showing up in his playing. It's like expecting Clapton to be able to play John Petrucci's guitar parts; he's a hell of a player, but this is just a more technical style.

Has nothing to do with enjoying the music less or more, but it's just a big difference between the two. I personally enjoy both and think the lineup change was for the best because I love the more technical drums in DT and I think MP's projects are great.

I'll echo what another poster said: there is a reason why you are seeing very few, if any, exact covers of MM's songs on YouTube. A lot of drummers are playing the songs but just simplifying parts here and there.

[Stadler]

Here's what I know..

MP was the most exciting drummer to enter my musical universe since Neal Peart. Be backboned what would out of nowhere become my favorite band, one that I obsessed over like no other. Mike struck the perfect balance between ability and accessibility.

Agreed. 

[darkshade]

I'm not saying Portnoy is a prog composer like Neal Morse or Steven Wilson, and I'll be the first to admit he probably can't write a song by himself. He needs others to bring in ideas, then he has something to work with.

I'm also not saying JP and JR can't write music without MP, but I think there's a certain "IT" factor that comes into play when they collaborate with MP.
JP and JR's composing skills don't impress me much outside of the DT albums with MP, though they almost came close with ADTOE, there are some surprises in there, and even a couple of 'jazzy' moments, ala old school DT. I can't say I listen to their solo albums anywhere near as much as DT. 99/100 times I'll listen to Neal Morse's worst prog album over JP or JR's best work without MP.

[Kotowboy]

I think this has been discussed before, but weren’t we just recently talking about how this lineup has now existed for a longer period of time than the SFAM lineup? That just blows my mind.

Funny that MP didn't get on with LaBrie and - allegedly - Myung - and now they've both been in the band longer than he was. In 3 years - Rudess will equal his 25 years.

[KevShmev]

Portnoy would in fact NOT be able to play a lot of Mangini-era DT without stripping the parts down to fit what he can do now. It's not really a question. MM is a far more technical drummer and obviously that is showing up in his playing. It's like expecting Clapton to be able to play John Petrucci's guitar parts; he's a hell of a player, but this is just a more technical style.

Has nothing to do with enjoying the music less or more, but it's just a big difference between the two. I personally enjoy both and think the lineup change was for the best because I love the more technical drums in DT and I think MP's projects are great.

I'll echo what another poster said: there is a reason why you are seeing very few, if any, exact covers of MM's songs on YouTube. A lot of drummers are playing the songs but just simplifying parts here and there.

Okay, but more technical does not automatically mean better.  There is no doubt in my mind that Portnoy could take any song DT has done since his departure and adjust it to his style and it would still sound good. 

[Kotowboy]

Yeah mangini makes the parts technical because he can. If Portnoy had never left and all the albums were the same - he'd just have written / arranged the parts his way.

[Ben_Jamin]

I noticed on Black Clouds and Silver Linings, Portnoy was becoming stale in his drumming. You could hear and predict his fills, and even their solo sections were becoming predictable with the MP fills included.

Mangini, actually composes drum parts and uses his technical skills to come up with some interesting drumming. I enjoy his drumming a lot...

Mike Portnoy has his style and sticks to it, sort of like Steve Harris.

[Stadler]

I noticed on Black Clouds and Silver Linings, Portnoy was becoming stale in his drumming. You could hear and predict his fills, and even their solo sections were becoming predictable with the MP fills included.

Mangini, actually composes drum parts and uses his technical skills to come up with some interesting drumming. I enjoy his drumming a lot...

Mike Portnoy has his style and sticks to it, sort of like Steve Harris.

And both Mike Portnoy and Steve Harris are recently on two of the best albums I've heard in a LONG time (Innocence & Danger, and Senjutsu). 

[hunnus2000]

I'm not saying Portnoy is a prog composer like Neal Morse or Steven Wilson, and I'll be the first to admit he probably can't write a song by himself. He needs others to bring in ideas, then he has something to work with.

I'm also not saying JP and JR can't write music without MP, but I think there's a certain "IT" factor that comes into play when they collaborate with MP.
JP and JR's composing skills don't impress me much outside of the DT albums with MP, though they almost came close with ADTOE, there are some surprises in there, and even a couple of 'jazzy' moments, ala old school DT. I can't say I listen to their solo albums anywhere near as much as DT. 99/100 times I'll listen to Neal Morse's worst prog album over JP or JR's best work without MP.

I dunno, MP is pretty darned musical on the guitar so I have no doubt that he could put out an album where he wrote and played on all of the instruments.  As for keyboards, no clue on that.

JP's solo albums confirm that he and JR are the melody makers of the group and on the subject of MP playing MM parts, I think he could do it with a little practice. For JP's solo album MP said that JP pushed him in certain areas out of his comfort zone and I can't remember the song but I do remember thinking, hey that's an MM riff. 16th notes on the ride I think but some of the players can correct me.

[erwinrafael]

For two albums in a row, actually, DT played parts that sounded like something they would have played during the Falling Into Infinity era: S2N and the middle solos in The Alien.

FII? Now that's a hot sports opinion.

Not really hearing it at all especially the S2N and Alien reference.

Try listening to Lines in the Sand and Just Let Me Breathe, then follow that with S2N and JP's middle guitar solo in The Alien.

[Enigmachine]

At the risk of exaggeration? 

In my defence, I've seen plenty of people who've adopted the most extreme version of the argument. Still, they're mostly within the domain of youtube comments and other such places. I see the subtler version of it a bit more regularly, I think. Dunno, maybe it's just me. One of the issues with me making a post like that is that it implies that I think MP is overrated or something like that. While I do think that some people seem to stretch the extent to what he did within DT, I won't deny that he's probably the most important and influential drummer within progressive metal and that his reputation on the whole is absolutely justified imo. I'll also say that I don't really see the decline of his drumming like some others do. I still really like his work on Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds. He settled into similar patterns, but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing if it works for the music (which it evidently did for a lot of people).

I'm not saying Portnoy is a prog composer like Neal Morse or Steven Wilson, and I'll be the first to admit he probably can't write a song by himself. He needs others to bring in ideas, then he has something to work with.

I'm also not saying JP and JR can't write music without MP, but I think there's a certain "IT" factor that comes into play when they collaborate with MP.
JP and JR's composing skills don't impress me much outside of the DT albums with MP, though they almost came close with ADTOE, there are some surprises in there, and even a couple of 'jazzy' moments, ala old school DT. I can't say I listen to their solo albums anywhere near as much as DT. 99/100 times I'll listen to Neal Morse's worst prog album over JP or JR's best work without MP.

I guess the issue is that, while you're acknowledging that it's your own opinion now (which is fair enough), you seemed to have stated it as a matter of fact before. Stuff like "he is also a master arranger", "because that element is missing", "MP had the vision that only the best bands have" and "JP is not the best composer out there". Not to mention, "but putting them together without MP it is obvious why DT cannot sound like they did in the 90s or 2000s" makes it sound like people who don't agree with you just don't get that obvious point. I don't really like to tone police, but there's a reason I try not to phrase my opinions like this, which is essentially a string of affirmative statements.

Other than that, that "IT" factor something that's clearly unquantifiable and subjective, particularly in the context of other people preferring DT's arrangements and overall music in the MM era (not that you'd necessarily disagree). I could just as easily argue that the shift in band dynamics created a different "IT" factor that's just as effective (again, not that you'd argue that it couldn't be done).

Okay, but more technical does not automatically mean better.  There is no doubt in my mind that Portnoy could take any song DT has done since his departure and adjust it to his style and it would still sound good. 

To be fair, I don't think this was the point of what TheBarstoolWarrior was saying.

Yeah mangini makes the parts technical because he can.

[Citation Needed]

[Elite]

Not trying to change any minds. Just dropping in to say MP deserves all the accolades. I deposit this as evidence that he can do Bruford just 🙂

https://youtu.be/i7VQ7DHOzbM

Ah yes, the bonus disc that was actually far better than the album it was part of

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Portnoy would in fact NOT be able to play a lot of Mangini-era DT without stripping the parts down to fit what he can do now. It's not really a question. MM is a far more technical drummer and obviously that is showing up in his playing. It's like expecting Clapton to be able to play John Petrucci's guitar parts; he's a hell of a player, but this is just a more technical style.

Has nothing to do with enjoying the music less or more, but it's just a big difference between the two. I personally enjoy both and think the lineup change was for the best because I love the more technical drums in DT and I think MP's projects are great.

I'll echo what another poster said: there is a reason why you are seeing very few, if any, exact covers of MM's songs on YouTube. A lot of drummers are playing the songs but just simplifying parts here and there.

Okay, but more technical does not automatically mean better.  There is no doubt in my mind that Portnoy could take any song DT has done since his departure and adjust it to his style and it would still sound good.

Agreed it doesn't mean one style is better than the other. I personally prefer MM's style in DT a bit more, but I think I might prefer MP in a Winery Dogs context.

MP had some great stuff in the earlier days of DT. I think it just got a little stale as the years and albums passed. He might even be the first to admit that things were just getting a little tired. I think MM just infused a whole new set of possibilities into the band because of that more technical style, which is what everyone else in DT is known for.

[Elite]

I dunno, MP is pretty darned musical on the guitar

Is he?

 

I have no doubt that he could put out an album where he wrote and played on all of the instruments.

There's a difference between 'playing an instrument' (the thing that people do when they copy others) and, you know, playing an instrument.

[Ben_Jamin]

For two albums in a row, actually, DT played parts that sounded like something they would have played during the Falling Into Infinity era: S2N and the middle solos in The Alien.

FII? Now that's a hot sports opinion.

Not really hearing it at all especially the S2N and Alien reference.

Try listening to Lines in the Sand and Just Let Me Breathe, then follow that with S2N and JP's middle guitar solo in The Alien.

It's actually the Bass tone in S2N that made me instantly think of JLMB.

[hunnus2000]

For two albums in a row, actually, DT played parts that sounded like something they would have played during the Falling Into Infinity era: S2N and the middle solos in The Alien.

FII? Now that's a hot sports opinion.

Not really hearing it at all especially the S2N and Alien reference.

Try listening to Lines in the Sand and Just Let Me Breathe, then follow that with S2N and JP's middle guitar solo in The Alien.

I'll listen and report back.

[hunnus2000]

I dunno, MP is pretty darned musical on the guitar

Is he?

 

I have no doubt that he could put out an album where he wrote and played on all of the instruments.

There's a difference between 'playing an instrument' (the thing that people do when they copy others) and, you know, playing an instrument.

Look, I'm not saying that a MP album would be techy or proggy but I think he could pull it off. Whether not people like it or not......