Author Topic: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)  (Read 346617 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Glasser

  • Posts: 3737
  • Gender: Male
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3220 on: September 10, 2021, 07:00:42 PM »
Is anyone able to share if there will be another single this month?

Next Friday hopefully, likely Invisible Monster.

Transcending Time would be perfect!!!!

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12791
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3221 on: September 10, 2021, 07:40:08 PM »
That one and Awaken the Master were kind of sleepers for me.  But earlier today, I was REALLY enjoying both.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Glasser

  • Posts: 3737
  • Gender: Male
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3222 on: September 10, 2021, 08:11:09 PM »
That one and Awaken the Master were kind of sleepers for me.  But earlier today, I was REALLY enjoying both.


Releasing Transcending Time would answer a lot of questions about the album having such extreme melody.

Online TheBarstoolWarrior

  • PR permission
  • *
  • Posts: 1047
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3223 on: September 10, 2021, 08:18:03 PM »
That one and Awaken the Master were kind of sleepers for me.  But earlier today, I was REALLY enjoying both.


Releasing Transcending Time would answer a lot of questions about the album having such extreme melody.

Do you think there are any 'radio friendly' tracks on the album? I am thinking of Paralyzed, Along for the Ride, Build Me Up Break Me Down, etc.

Offline Glasser

  • Posts: 3737
  • Gender: Male
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3224 on: September 10, 2021, 08:31:18 PM »
That one and Awaken the Master were kind of sleepers for me.  But earlier today, I was REALLY enjoying both.


Releasing Transcending Time would answer a lot of questions about the album having such extreme melody.

Do you think there are any 'radio friendly' tracks on the album? I am thinking of Paralyzed, Along for the Ride, Build Me Up Break Me Down, etc.

Yes, Transcending Time in a HUGE way! Borderline arena rock chorus but not cheesy at all. Amazing verses and overall arrangement. This song could fit on AWAKE, DT, or somewhere on Disc 2 of SDOIT. Awesome!!!!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 08:39:04 PM by Glasser »

Online TheBarstoolWarrior

  • PR permission
  • *
  • Posts: 1047
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3225 on: September 10, 2021, 08:39:04 PM »
 :corn

Online evilasiojr

  • Posts: 182
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3226 on: September 10, 2021, 09:11:05 PM »
That one and Awaken the Master were kind of sleepers for me.  But earlier today, I was REALLY enjoying both.


Releasing Transcending Time would answer a lot of questions about the album having such extreme melody.

Do you think there are any 'radio friendly' tracks on the album? I am thinking of Paralyzed, Along for the Ride, Build Me Up Break Me Down, etc.

Yes, Transcending Time in a HUGE way! Borderline arena rock chorus but not cheesy at all. Amazing verses and overall arrangement. This song could fit on AWAKE, DT, or somewhere on Disc 2 of SDOIT. Awesome!!!!

Maaan, can't wait  ;D

Offline Kilgore Trout

  • Posts: 142
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3227 on: September 10, 2021, 11:43:51 PM »
Also, that wasn't really what I was talking about there. If we're just talking matters of complexity, that can be measured to some degree and I'd say that TA or ADToE are, on balance, more intricately composed than anything from the 90s as well.
I understood your first post. I just think you're completely wrong, but I don't have the time nor the will to show you why, so let's just say DT sucks and always has since you're adamant that ADToE is more intricately composed than I&W and SFAM, and that will be it.

Offline BeatriceNB

  • Posts: 137
  • Gender: Female
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3228 on: September 11, 2021, 12:34:13 AM »
[...]
I'm not knocking Mangini, he's clearly a spectacular drummer and maybe he is technically more proficient than Portnoy (I'm not a drummer; I wouldn't know how to measure that) but I know personally, I don't care for the style (particularly his use of the bass drum(s)) as much.   Whether Portnoy can "keep up" or not isn't really the point; the point is to make music that others can enjoy, repeatedly, over time, isn't it?  And for me, I love that "epic" style, that tension and resolution, and often that DOES include knowing - anticipating - exactly what is coming next.   As you said, it's all taste, but taste only goes so far.  I struggle with this idea of commenting on someone else's ability based largely on whether I get what I'm hoping to hear from a particular piece of music or not.

Mangini is worlds, if not galaxies, ahead of Portnoy, technique and knowledge wise.
I heavily disagree with calling MP a technical drummer. He knows some time sigs (but can only play them as "4/4 shuffle"), and can play relatively fast; but those are elementary concepts, especially to someone who went to Berklee. Even in his peak, he was below Peart and Bruford (in case someone brings the zeitgeist argument).

I recommend watching his "duel" with Billy Rymer (https://youtube.com/watch?v=EtsB2mKWaPw), the difference in dynamics, limbs interdependence, rhythm tightness... speaks for itself.

That's what i'm getting at. His 'jamming" is still " how can I play this measure of 4/4 in 10 different ways " and not " oh this groove feels great ".


Like his version of just laying back and enjoying the groove *IS* to think of how many ways he can play the same time signature.

You're assuming that's how he improvises based on a composed (or semi composed, idk) solo spot in a song he didn't write. There's videos of MM improvising, he's good at it, and definitely not "playing 4/4 in 10 ways". And using metric modulation in a solo spot over a repeating riff/melody is not uncommon in Jazz, for example.
Improvisation is not just "laying back and enjoying the groove"; maybe you're thinking of jamming, and even then it's wrong.

That's what i'm getting at. His 'jamming" is still " how can I play this measure of 4/4 in 10 different ways " and not " oh this groove feels great ".


Not really. You still have to make the improvisation work (And feel). Saw the Mars Volta many moons ago and they were "improvising". Sounded like shit, no coherency, just a bunch of noise. King Crimson does a lot of improvs and they feel fine most of them anyway. I think Mangini would fit in a band like KC as well. All the players are very well versed in music theory and they make it work flawlessly most of the times.

I did watch The Grid DVD. I'm no drummer but it was fascinating how he improvises.

The Mars Volta being one of my favourite bands, and having listened to lots of their bootlegs from all their eras, I don't think they play incoherent noise (which I love, btw); their jams, while loose, are pretty well structured.
But the band is heavily influenced by Jazz (and Free Jazz) and Hardcore, so they're not going to be playing the same beat for 10 minutes with soloists taking turns. I would say their jams are more along the lines of early '70s Miles Davis (Bitches Brew, Lost Quintet, Live-Evil) and '70s Led Zeppelin (Song Remains The Same, How The West Was Won), though; Mahavishnu Orchestra too.
Around the Larks Tongue release, King Crimson would do really long improvs. Zoom Zoom (Zoom Club, 1972) is not away from The Mars Volta improvisations.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 12:39:52 AM by BeatriceNB »

Offline IDontNotDoThings

  • Posts: 3627
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3229 on: September 11, 2021, 12:47:44 AM »
I'm not sure I quite understand the implication of some in this thread that feeling a groove & playing complex rhythms are mutually exclusive. There are plenty of songs that are pretty complex rhythmically but groove pretty hard once you wrap your head around what's happening (my go-to example is TesseracT's Exile). I think MM does a great job of this in The Alien (especially in the 2nd verse & outro, as explained in the Shawn Crowder video), & as far as I'm aware it's one of the most complex drum parts he's done with the band.
ドリームシアターはあまり好きではありませんが、ペンと紙を持っていたので、なんてこった。

Offline Max Kuehnau

  • Emotionless Brainiac
  • Posts: 2447
  • Gender: Male
  • Doomed to be a man this world forgot
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3230 on: September 11, 2021, 01:04:47 AM »
I'm not sure I quite understand the implication of some in this thread that feeling a groove & playing complex rhythms are mutually exclusive. There are plenty of songs that are pretty complex rhythmically but groove pretty hard once you wrap your head around what's happening (my go-to example is TesseracT's Exile). I think MM does a great job of this in The Alien (especially in the 2nd verse & outro, as explained in the Shawn Crowder video), & as far as I'm aware it's one of the most complex drum parts he's done with the band.
to date? Yes, definitely among them. We'll have to see what the rest of the album will hold for us though, this is only song 1 remember. I'm expecting they will up the ante throughout the album and that everything will culminate in the title track.We'll see, I guess we shall see. (G minor suspended resolution)

"All my natural instincts are begging me to stop
But somehow I carry on, heading for the top
A physical absurdity, a tremendous mental game
Helping me understand exactly who I am"

Offline dream75

  • Posts: 171
  • Gender: Male
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3231 on: September 11, 2021, 01:32:00 AM »
Is anyone able to share if there will be another single this month?

Next Friday hopefully, likely Invisible Monster.

I confirm 😉

Offline Enigmachine

  • Posts: 1331
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3232 on: September 11, 2021, 02:09:44 AM »
Also, that wasn't really what I was talking about there. If we're just talking matters of complexity, that can be measured to some degree and I'd say that TA or ADToE are, on balance, more intricately composed than anything from the 90s as well.
I understood your first post. I just think you're completely wrong, but I don't have the time nor the will to show you why, so let's just say DT sucks and always has since you're adamant that ADToE is more intricately composed than I&W and SFAM, and that will be it.

The main thing I'm curious about here is what's driving this sort of aggressive response. We're all here to discuss DT in (hopefully) a friendly and respectful manner and that's just what I'm trying to do. Personally, I'm not "adamant" that ADToE is more intricately composed than I&W and SfaM, it's just my perspective that I feel like I could back up with a fair degree of confidence, but am open to being convinced otherwise. I'm also not sure why you're still conflating all this with it invalidating those albums. If I ranked my favourite DT albums, it probably wouldn't be in order of complexity. I love Falling Into Infinity for instance, but I'd consider it far from the most complex. Same goes for songs like Pull Me Under, Caught in a Web and The Mirror. I'm not using intricacy as a measuring stick of quality because that's ultimately down to personal taste. Even a lot of the people who prefer the same albums you do often say that those albums being complex is not the draw, even often saying that they went too far in terms of technical showcasing and rhythmic wackiness later on. That's why the "simpler" comment took me by surprise.

It's also difficult for me to get that you understood my first post when you replied with such a dismissive comment that missed the point of what I was saying, which is why I might seem persistent here. If you say you don't have the time or will to respond in a more amicable manner, why respond at all, especially when it only seems to contribute negativity? I say this in the hope that you might reconsider the tone you've been adopting over the last few pages, because it feels like you really don't like it when people stick up for the music they enjoy. I'm not saying you have to love it as well, but being more respectful towards those with different opinions will go a long way (which I know from my own experiences of somtimes having been a bit hostile in the past). In that vein, I apologise for calling your judgement absurd, even if I still think the terms you used were needlessly inflammatory.

Offline jayvee3

  • Posts: 444
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3233 on: September 11, 2021, 03:19:26 AM »
Enigmachine - keep posting as normal mate. Your posts are always well thought out and respectful. Some of your most recent posts in this thread have been really thought-provoking (to me anyway)  :tup

Offline Kilgore Trout

  • Posts: 142
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3234 on: September 11, 2021, 04:03:26 AM »
It's also difficult for me to get that you understood my first post when you replied with such a dismissive comment that missed the point of what I was saying, which is why I might seem persistent here.
I understood your first post, your second and your third. I was being ironic. I never had any intention to further discuss the subject, so I answered with irony. "it feels like you really don't like it when people stick up for the music they enjoy"? Give me a break. Erwinrafael have been respectful in the last pages? He has been the opposite of that. And your very first act is taking two of my words out of context, calling my stance "absurd", and going on a rant which has nothing to do with my initial point. I think your attitude is manipulative and contemptuous. I kept it cool by answering with irony.
And "simplier" is an "inflammatory term" now? I should have shut it, got it.

Offline erwinrafael

  • Posts: 3436
  • Gender: Male
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3235 on: September 11, 2021, 04:15:27 AM »
I was being disrespectful because I pointed out that Mangini did not double bass the first verse of The Alien? It was...a statement of fact?

Offline Kilgore Trout

  • Posts: 142
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3236 on: September 11, 2021, 04:19:35 AM »
That is not what you did.

Offline erwinrafael

  • Posts: 3436
  • Gender: Male
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3237 on: September 11, 2021, 04:25:29 AM »
So what am I being disrespectful about? Trying to defend Mangini and DT for all these comments of being lazy, uninspired, uninteresting, or being called that they suck?

Everything I post in this forum, I can say to anybody's face because I stand by my position and how I say my position. Can you say to Dream Theater member's face all the comments you post about them? I don't think so.

Offline Kilgore Trout

  • Posts: 142
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3238 on: September 11, 2021, 04:36:32 AM »
So what am I being disrespectful about? Trying to defend Mangini and DT for all these comments of being lazy, uninspired, uninteresting, or being called that they suck?

You're being manipulative. "Lazy" is not a term I used, it's darkshade, and he phrased it like this : " I even think some stuff on recent albums is just
lazy (by DT standards)
". How dare did he!
I also didn't use the term "uninspired", I wrote "less inspired", which is a relative term.
Finally, I only talked about "uninteresting parts" after your first bullshit message ("As a drummer, all I can do is roll my eyes when I read claims that the drumming in 2010s DT is simpler." - while I wasn't even talking about drumming!).
You're rearraging the events to fit your narrative. I fucking roll my eyes at the bullshit you're spitting right now. You're just a hypocrite.

Everything I post in this forum, I can say to anybody's face because I stand by my position and how I say my position. Can you say to Dream Theater member's face all the comments you post about them? I don't think so.

And I'm the fucking one with a problem with other people's opinion?
As far as I know, DT members aren't lurking on this forum. It's okay to piss on people you're talking to, but to criticize the MUSIC of people who aren't even there is not?

PS: I'm very well aware I'll get banned for this, but I'll stand my ground in front of all these lies and bullshit.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 04:44:45 AM by Kilgore Trout »

Offline chwik

  • Posts: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Shadows of the Sun
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3239 on: September 11, 2021, 04:56:48 AM »
Also, that wasn't really what I was talking about there. If we're just talking matters of complexity, that can be measured to some degree and I'd say that TA or ADToE are, on balance, more intricately composed than anything from the 90s as well.
I understood your first post. I just think you're completely wrong, but I don't have the time nor the will to show you why, so let's just say DT sucks and always has since you're adamant that ADToE is more intricately composed than I&W and SFAM, and that will be it.

I know you are busy, but could you please direct me to the irony in this post…I am unable to identify it…

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52785
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3240 on: September 11, 2021, 04:59:02 AM »
PS: I'm very well aware I'll get banned for this, but I'll stand my ground in front of all these lies and bullshit.
Well, that doesn't seem like the smartest way to do things.

It is quite possible to argue your point vigorously, even passionately, without belittling other people or being an asshole. This is not Twitter or the YouTube comments section. Maintaining respect for the other members is key to a discussion forum like this. Don't be a jerk. This is your warning.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Enigmachine

  • Posts: 1331
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3241 on: September 11, 2021, 05:11:37 AM »
I understood your first post, your second and your third. I was being ironic. I never had any intention to further discuss the subject, so I answered with irony. "it feels like you really don't like it when people stick up for the music they enjoy"? Give me a break. Erwinrafael have been respectful in the last pages? He has been the opposite of that. And your very first act is taking two of my words out of context, calling my stance "absurd", and going on a rant which has nothing to do with my initial point. I think your attitude is manipulative and contemptuous. I kept it cool by answering with irony.
And "simplier" is an "inflammatory term" now? I should have shut it, got it.

Hey, I literally apologised for calling it absurd in the same paragraph. I also apologise for misrepresenting "less inspired" as "uninpsired", although my point still stands otherwise. If my post is otherwise manipulative, I don't understand how you could gather that. I directly countered the point about the newer material being simpler. Speaking of which, I didn't call that an inflammatory term, I was referring to things like "less inspired", "so let's just say DT sucks and always has" and "But I totally understand why a drummer would not have any desire to take the time to learn such uninteresting parts." which came across as needlessly dismissive and disrespectful. Again, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear from what I wrote. If you want to help correct what I said and have a productive conversation, I'm happy to do so. From the sounds of it though, you seem unwilling to do so without passive aggressive "irony" or outright hostility. In my experience, most people here are comfortable with polite corrections and clarifications, so there's no need for the aggression here.

Also, while I'm not a mod, I feel like it'd be prudent for me to refer to rule 12:

"Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it is constructive and does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."

Offline Kilgore Trout

  • Posts: 142
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3242 on: September 11, 2021, 05:39:06 AM »
It is quite possible to argue your point vigorously, even passionately, without belittling other people or being an asshole.

Where the fuck did I argue my point vigorously?
My initial point was : "Sure, Portnoy regressed, but how could he not keep with the DT of today, which is a simplier and less inspired version of the DT of the past?" (read the fucking context)
The answers were: "all I can do is roll my eyes when I read claims that the drumming in 2010s DT is simpler." and "The notion of modern DT being "simpler and less inspired" feels a tad absurd to me." (Enigmachine later apologized). And I am the one belitting people? I'm the one being belittled. I fucking earned the right to be an asshole to the assholes in this thread.
 
Just admit that there are opinions that are not welcome here, in any form. Portnoy is regularly trashed, and no one bats an eye, but when someone criticize Mangini (WHICH I NEVER FUCKING DID), he's a jerk or an asshole.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 05:52:52 AM by Kilgore Trout »

Offline Kilgore Trout

  • Posts: 142
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3243 on: September 11, 2021, 05:41:40 AM »
Also, while I'm not a mod, I feel like it'd be prudent for me to refer to rule 12:

"Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it is constructive and does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."

And where, exactly, did I insult or bash any band members? People have trashed Portnoy several times in this thread. Why aren't you calling that rule on THEM? He's a former band member.
You're just a bunch of hypocrites. You're doing exactly what you're criticize others for.

Now ban me so you can all go back to sucking each other dicks.

Offline Kilgore Trout

  • Posts: 142
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3244 on: September 11, 2021, 05:51:38 AM »
Speaking of which, I didn't call that an inflammatory term, I was referring to things like "less inspired", "so let's just say DT sucks and always has" and "But I totally understand why a drummer would not have any desire to take the time to learn such uninteresting parts." which came across as needlessly dismissive and disrespectful. Again, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear from what I wrote.
You wrote:" In that vein, I apologise for calling your judgement absurd, even if I still think the terms you used were needlessly inflammatory."

What you call absurd was the statement "simpler and less inspired". I'm not in your fucking mind and I can't guess your talking about something else entirely. You don't get to play nice guy after fucking with people. You're not sorry. You're manipulative.

Offline chwik

  • Posts: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Shadows of the Sun
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3245 on: September 11, 2021, 05:59:01 AM »
Also, while I'm not a mod, I feel like it'd be prudent for me to refer to rule 12:

"Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it is constructive and does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."

And where, exactly, did I insult or bash any band members? People have trashed Portnoy several times in this thread. Why aren't you calling that rule on THEM? He's a former band member.
You're just a bunch of hypocrites. You're doing exactly what you're criticize others for.

Now ban me so you can all go back to sucking each other dicks.

Geeez…somebody needs a hug!

Offline TempusVox

  • Descendant of Primus
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5503
  • Gender: Male
You don't HAVE a soul.You ARE a soul.You HAVE a body.
"I came here to drink milk and kick ass; and I just finished my milk."

Offline Enigmachine

  • Posts: 1331
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3247 on: September 11, 2021, 06:09:39 AM »
And where, exactly, did I insult or bash any band members? People have trashed Portnoy several times in this thread. Why aren't you calling that rule on THEM? He's a former band member.
You're just a bunch of hypocrites. You're doing exactly what you're criticize others for.

Now ban me so you can all go back to sucking each other dicks.

Well again, "less inspired", "You know what? You're right: DT have been producing mediocre and uninspired music for 20 years now. The discussion is closed.", "so let's just say DT sucks and always has" (the irony wasn't exactly clear here), and "But I totally understand why a drummer would not have any desire to take the time to learn such uninteresting parts." come across as belittling and disrespectful and especially your tone at the moment. As my apologies and clarifications have hopefully made clear, I'm also willing to correct my behaviour if I'm being hypocritical in any way. I'm not doing this to attack, after all. I think you'd also be surprised at the amount of people who are ambivalent towards the MM era or even dislike it, but manage to express their thoughts around it in a way that is far less hostile.

I should also note that I didn't quote you initially because I didn't want my post to really be a rebuttal, but more of a statement on what I see more generally, using some of what you said as something of a reference point for that. I didn't intend for it to be a personal attack.

You wrote:" In that vein, I apologise for calling your judgement absurd, even if I still think the terms you used were needlessly inflammatory."

What you call absurd was the statement "simpler and less inspired". I'm not in your fucking mind and I can't guess your talking about something else entirely. You don't get to play nice guy after fucking with people. You're not sorry. You're manipulative.

If you can't read my mind, then you should know that you also can't assume that I was being manipulative. You're making character attacks on me after an admitted mistake. I also still maintain that "less inspired" is inflammatory, with the package of the initial statement. Essentailly, "simpler and less inspired" as a whole was a bit much, but just "simpler" would be fine (if incorrect imo) and "less inspired" would essentially carry the same weight as what you said. I'm not being manipulative, because this has essentially boiled down to a game of semantics that you seem to be getting incredibly heated over. I made some errors, but none of it was done with the intent to mislead and I still don't think much of what I said constitutes "fucking with people". It can sometimes be difficult to gather my thoughts properly, especially in a moment of tension like this. The substance of what I said still applies and I don't think I ever contradicted that. If I was manipulating you, I don't think I would be as willing to admit where I slipped up and continue to in some ways.

This is all beside the point of you being, again, needlessly hostile. I called your opinion (which was phrased as an assertion of facts, mind you) absurd and later regretted the wording, then pulled out a number of examples to prove your rather aggressive behaviour, even if I slipped it in a context that didn't fit because, to be blunt, this is the kind of conversation that's hard to maintain my cool with. I hope others can see that I've at least tried to conduct myself in good faith and try and clarify things the best I can, because manipulation has never been my intention, especially in the context of music discussion, of all things. That's the last trait that I'd want associated with me. I just want to make clear that my apologies are genuine and if I sometimes come across as unclear, misleading or needlessly confrontational, I want to own up to that.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 06:23:43 AM by Enigmachine »

Offline IDontNotDoThings

  • Posts: 3627
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3248 on: September 11, 2021, 06:17:29 AM »
For what it's worth, Enigma, I don't think you were in the wrong at all, but it's really cool that you're still being civil beyond the point where I would've definitely lost my cool. Sorry all that happened. :hug:
ドリームシアターはあまり好きではありませんが、ペンと紙を持っていたので、なんてこった。

Offline chwik

  • Posts: 304
  • Gender: Male
  • Shadows of the Sun
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3249 on: September 11, 2021, 06:25:53 AM »
Yeah Enigma, you kept it respectful. Just let it go now, it was clear that the Trout was just here to create a provocation, he/she is not worth the time or energy.

Offline Max Kuehnau

  • Emotionless Brainiac
  • Posts: 2447
  • Gender: Male
  • Doomed to be a man this world forgot
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3250 on: September 11, 2021, 06:30:33 AM »
and go on we will: Who is excited for next Friday? :D
"All my natural instincts are begging me to stop
But somehow I carry on, heading for the top
A physical absurdity, a tremendous mental game
Helping me understand exactly who I am"

Offline Enigmachine

  • Posts: 1331
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3251 on: September 11, 2021, 06:39:59 AM »
Hyped for Friday for sure. Looking back at some of the previous comments, it's also interesting to see the descriptions of Transcending Time. It does confirm my suspicion that it'd be one of the more accessible and succinct tracks, judging from its length. My expectation is kind of in the vein of Surrender to Reason or Barstool Warrior. That kind of stadium prog vibe.

Yeah Enigma, you kept it respectful. Just let it go now, it was clear that the Trout was just here to create a provocation, he/she is not worth the time or energy.

For what it's worth, Enigma, I don't think you were in the wrong at all, but it's really cool that you're still being civil beyond the point where I would've definitely lost my cool. Sorry all that happened. :hug:

Thanks both. I do think it'd be better next time for me to just report in private and not spend my energy as much on this sort of thing, because it's definitely draining and was probably unnecessary.

Offline IDontNotDoThings

  • Posts: 3627
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3252 on: September 11, 2021, 06:41:53 AM »
and go on we will: Who is excited for next Friday? :D

I am :D

On one hand I considered not listening to a new single until the album comes out, but on the other hand, October 22 is too damn far away & I'd rather hear a new DT song sooner than later. I'm guessing the next one will be a bit more straightforward (although not to the degree of something like Along For The Ride or Paralysed), so I'm interested to hear how it'll differ but also fit in with The Alien.
ドリームシアターはあまり好きではありませんが、ペンと紙を持っていたので、なんてこった。

Offline darkshade

  • Posts: 4251
  • Gender: Male
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3253 on: September 11, 2021, 07:04:28 AM »
No doubt Portnoy plateaued during the Six Degrees/Train of Thought era, but to call Portnoy's playing 'leagues' below the likes of Bruford, Peart, and Mangini is a little ignorant. What MP lacks in technical prowess, he makes up for with creativity, but MP in his peak was one of the best rock drummers in the world. What make Bruford and Peart less mechanical sounding like Mangini is their sense of groove and of course jazz influence, which I hear none from MM. Portnoy has that in him a little (as do Petrucci/Myung/Rudess)

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)
« Reply #3254 on: September 11, 2021, 07:47:03 AM »

A master arranger?  Have you actually been in the studio to see what it is that he actually contributes?

Seems to me that, by your logic, all the great songs by DT/TA/NM are due to Portnoy’s masterful arrangements but the lacklustre material he’s put out in other bands is not his fault as the talent is not there.  You give him so much of the credit for the good stuff but none of the bad stuff is his fault?  You can’t have it both ways. 

The simple fact is that MP is a drummer and his stuff with talented players sounds good because he’s playing with talented players and writers.  His stuff with less talented players sounds bad because they’re not great songwriters.  He is not the reason the good bands sound good or the lesser bands don’t, he’s just the drummer in good and not so good projects.

DT have not fallen apart without his masterful arranging skills, they’ve moved on and barely missed a beat (pardon the pun, if that is a pun) putting out high quality album after high quality album.  Are they the absolute pinnacle albums of their career? I’d say no but none of the MP albums after SFAM are either imo.  That stretch from SDOIT to BC&SL are my least favourite DT albums and things picked up when Mangini joined.  Likewise, if Neal Morse switched drummers tomorrow, it would likely have very little impact on how his albums will sound.  The Spock’s Beard albums sound just fine with a different drummer.

What’s abundantly clear to me on these BTS making of album videos is just how little he contributes to the writing of those records.  The others all turn up with loads of demos and ideas and he turns up with zero.

I agree with pretty much all of this.  As many hats as he tries to wear now, drumming is still the thing Portnoy does best.  And there is no shame in that considering he is still a great drummer (despite his admitted lack of care in improving anymore).  But he's probably lucky that all of the bands he's been in don't have the Fleetwood Mac rule where the person who had the original idea for the song gets all of the songwriting credit, otherwise he might be able to count his total songwriting credits on one hand (or none :lol).  Aside from him supposedly coming up with the riff for A Rite of Passage, which is basically the Misunderstood riff slightly tweaked (IIRC), I cannot think of a single song where I've seen him or the band talk about how it started from an idea he had or melody he wrote.  Maybe there is an example or two of which I am unaware, which I am sure someone will correct me if that is the case :P. but I think y'all get my point.

Back to the arranging thing, calling him a master arranger seems odd to me, too.  I am sure he makes great suggestions, but DT's arranging has been just fine without him (better in fact in the 10's than it was in the 00's), and Neal Morse's arranging was just fine back in the Spock's days when Portnoy was not around.