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I'm not knocking Mangini, he's clearly a spectacular drummer and maybe he is technically more proficient than Portnoy (I'm not a drummer; I wouldn't know how to measure that) but I know personally, I don't care for the style (particularly his use of the bass drum(s)) as much. Whether Portnoy can "keep up" or not isn't really the point; the point is to make music that others can enjoy, repeatedly, over time, isn't it? And for me, I love that "epic" style, that tension and resolution, and often that DOES include knowing - anticipating - exactly what is coming next. As you said, it's all taste, but taste only goes so far. I struggle with this idea of commenting on someone else's ability based largely on whether I get what I'm hoping to hear from a particular piece of music or not.
Mangini is worlds, if not galaxies, ahead of Portnoy, technique and knowledge wise.
I heavily disagree with calling MP a technical drummer. He knows some time sigs (but can only play them as "4/4 shuffle"), and can play relatively fast; but those are elementary concepts, especially to someone who went to Berklee. Even in his peak, he was below Peart and Bruford (in case someone brings the zeitgeist argument).
I recommend watching his "duel" with Billy Rymer (
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EtsB2mKWaPw), the difference in dynamics, limbs interdependence, rhythm tightness... speaks for itself.
That's what i'm getting at. His 'jamming" is still " how can I play this measure of 4/4 in 10 different ways " and not " oh this groove feels great ".
Like his version of just laying back and enjoying the groove *IS* to think of how many ways he can play the same time signature.
You're assuming that's how he improvises based on a composed (or semi composed, idk) solo spot in a song he didn't write. There's videos of MM improvising, he's good at it, and definitely not "playing 4/4 in 10 ways". And using metric modulation in a solo spot over a repeating riff/melody is not uncommon in Jazz, for example.
Improvisation is not just "laying back and enjoying the groove"; maybe you're thinking of jamming, and even then it's wrong.
That's what i'm getting at. His 'jamming" is still " how can I play this measure of 4/4 in 10 different ways " and not " oh this groove feels great ".
Not really. You still have to make the improvisation work (And feel). Saw the Mars Volta many moons ago and they were "improvising". Sounded like shit, no coherency, just a bunch of noise. King Crimson does a lot of improvs and they feel fine most of them anyway. I think Mangini would fit in a band like KC as well. All the players are very well versed in music theory and they make it work flawlessly most of the times.
I did watch The Grid DVD. I'm no drummer but it was fascinating how he improvises.
The Mars Volta being one of my favourite bands, and having listened to lots of their bootlegs from all their eras, I don't think they play incoherent noise (which I love, btw); their jams, while loose, are pretty well structured.
But the band is heavily influenced by Jazz (and Free Jazz) and Hardcore, so they're not going to be playing the same beat for 10 minutes with soloists taking turns. I would say their jams are more along the lines of early '70s Miles Davis (Bitches Brew, Lost Quintet, Live-Evil) and '70s Led Zeppelin (Song Remains The Same, How The West Was Won), though; Mahavishnu Orchestra too.
Around the Larks Tongue release, King Crimson would do really long improvs. Zoom Zoom (Zoom Club, 1972) is not away from The Mars Volta improvisations.