DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[kirksnosehair]

That's partly MMs fault as he plays every hit at the same velocity on purpose. He sounds like a drum machine. Plus he's obsessed with playing smack bang on the grid.

He says that playing smack bang on the beat with every hit has just as much feel as someone like MP or Lars Ulrich or Gavin Harrison who ebb and flow with the music.

I disagree but i'm obsessed with groove and feel and less so about being technical.

That's not what I'm talking about though.  I'm talking about how the drums sound, not how they're played or the velocity of the sticks.    I don't like the sound of his snare drum and I don't like the sound of his bass drums, they're too bright, both of them.  They need to warm up the tone of that kit's sound.  I always thought Portnoy was too loud on most of the studio albums, but I didn't mind it so much because his kit always sounded warm and organic.  It's got nothing to do with style and everything to do with mixing.

[KevShmev]

He personally told me that he wasn't satisfied with his sound on ADTOE when i interviewed him, as he felt it was sounding like it was recorded with only two microphones in the room. I guess not wanting to shake things up too much and being the "new guy", he trusted JP for the sonic direction of the album.

Overall, i think it took a while, but now it seems that both MM and JP have gotten to a point where they can get the drums to sound "right" (maybe more familiar to what we are used to in DT), and i'm hopeful that the new album will be an improvement on D/T. It's a pity though for MM because the things he plays are really different and unique, might not be the super tight hi-hat sounds and tricks with the splashes that MP does, but it's on another level and very musical. Only it's a bit hidden by the wall of guitar especially on ADTOE which is in my opinion one of the most muffled sounds on DT's catalog.

Totally agree.  I never listen to ADTOE anymore, and the muffled mix and poor drum sound is a big reason why.  It's like listening to an album with a blanket over the speakers (when it rocks, the lighter moments mostly sound very good).

I think Mangini has been too passive in his approach. It's almost like he was so star struck to join the band that he was just thrilled to be there and let them do whatever they wanted with his drum sounds and then he realized what they were doing with it wasn't to his liking.

[Dedalus]

The biggest issue a lot of fans seem to have with MM is that he isn't MP and that he doesn't sound like MP. And that would've happened to anyone who came in to replace MP after being the only drummer in the band for 25 years...

I'm convinced DT could've brought Neil Peart in to replace MP and people would've still complained

Yes and this is completely evident.

The band has already gone through more drastic changes in terms of composition/sound/technique: KM -> DS -> JR, but fans behave as if the band's big musical change was the absence of MP, which doesn't make any sense logical and rational.

That's what I always say, it's not about music.

[Dedalus]

He personally told me that he wasn't satisfied with his sound on ADTOE when i interviewed him, as he felt it was sounding like it was recorded with only two microphones in the room. I guess not wanting to shake things up too much and being the "new guy", he trusted JP for the sonic direction of the album.

Overall, i think it took a while, but now it seems that both MM and JP have gotten to a point where they can get the drums to sound "right" (maybe more familiar to what we are used to in DT), and i'm hopeful that the new album will be an improvement on D/T. It's a pity though for MM because the things he plays are really different and unique, might not be the super tight hi-hat sounds and tricks with the splashes that MP does, but it's on another level and very musical. Only it's a bit hidden by the wall of guitar especially on ADTOE which is in my opinion one of the most muffled sounds on DT's catalog.

Totally agree.  I never listen to ADTOE anymore, and the muffled mix and poor drum sound is a big reason why.  It's like listening to an album with a blanket over the speakers (when it rocks, the lighter moments mostly sound very good).

I think Mangini has been too passive in his approach. It's almost like he was so star struck to join the band that he was just thrilled to be there and let them do whatever they wanted with his drum sounds and then he realized what they were doing with it wasn't to his liking.

Maybe he's JMX type 

And speaking of sound/mixing/etc: my favorite instrument is the bass and there is no instrument that suffers more than the bass in the mix process. If I were to stop listening to all the heavy metal bands with a bass sound/mix that I dislike, I think I could cut out at least 70% of the bands I like.

[Kotowboy]

Out of all the drummers that auditioned, Marco Minneman is the one that I feel is the closest to Mike Portnoy.

No way. Thomas Lang has the same kind of feel and charisma of MP with the god like technicality of MM. TL is one of my fave drummers at the moment.

I think he would have been the perfect fit. But apparently he figured out early on that it was just for the documentary and not really about finding the best drummer so he played along

but never really wanted the gig. He just did it for the exposure. Which lends some weight to the theory some people had that they wanted MM all along but

they decided to make up this documentary about looking for a new band member as Dream theater publicity.

[Setlist Scotty]

The biggest issue a lot of fans seem to have with MM is that he isn't MP and that he doesn't sound like MP. And that would've happened to anyone who came in to replace MP after being the only drummer in the band for 25 years...
I'm convinced DT could've brought Neil Peart in to replace MP and people would've still complained

Yes and this is completely evident.

The band has already gone through more drastic changes in terms of composition/sound/technique: KM -> DS -> JR, but fans behave as if the band's big musical change was the absence of MP, which doesn't make any sense logical and rational.

I disagree - while it may be true that there are some who are complaining just because it's someone other than MP at the drum kit, just look at some of the individuals who are posting in this thread that have a problem with MM's sound. For example, both Kotowboy and KevShmev. Both of these guys has been very critical of MP and have welcomed MM with open arms into DT, yet they still are taking issue with the sound of MM's drums.

So it's not about MP not being in the band. It's about how MM's drums have been mixed, pure and simple.

[Dedalus]

I disagree - while it may be true that there are some who are complaining just because it's someone other than MP at the drum kit, just look at some of the individuals who are posting in this thread that have a problem with MM's sound. For example, both Kotowboy and KevShmev. Both of these guys has been very critical of MP and have welcomed MM with open arms into DT, yet they still are taking issue with the sound of MM's drums.

So it's not about MP not being in the band. It's about how MM's drums have been mixed, pure and simple.

Yes, of course there are folks with genuinely negative opinions  about drum sound, mixing, etc. But that's not my point. My point is the recurrence of the discussion.

I'll illustrate it this way: DT releases a new album and there are some negative comments about how the bass have been mixed: "gosh, it's too low in the mix / I can't hear the bass!". How many times has this happened? It's not unusual, right? But doesn't this matter take on this proportion? It doesn't generate as much engagement and it doesn't last that long.
Overall, it will be virtually no commented until the next album.

Is it the same with the discussions regarding drum sound/drum in the mix? Not fucking way! How many times have I followed a discussion about "the drum sound on the DT" since MP quit? 100 times? 200? 300 maybe? I don't know, but enough.

Why the difference?

Two possibilities, in my view:

1) Bass ranks last in the "instruments I really care" list.
2) The former drummer's name is Mike Portnoy.

Possibly a drum sound that doesn't please bother you more than a bass sound that doesn't.

It is common for this to happen.
I wasn't satisfied with Dave LaRue's bass sound on JP's solo record or Tony Levin's bass sound on LT3.
Was there an argument here and there? Yes.
Lots of? Don't.
Has it passed? Already.
Discussions about bass sound, in general, are always like this, ephemeral and dispassionate. 

Personally I believe that ignoring  number 2 is a lot of innocence. The fact that MP left DT completely altered the fans' relationship with the band, on all levels. To me this is clear as water. And I have no doubt that this is fundamental for the discussion "drums on the DT" to come back every other day.

In general, it is not about music.

[TAC]

I disagree - while it may be true that there are some who are complaining just because it's someone other than MP at the drum kit, just look at some of the individuals who are posting in this thread that have a problem with MM's sound. For example, both Kotowboy and KevShmev. Both of these guys has been very critical of MP and have welcomed MM with open arms into DT, yet they still are taking issue with the sound of MM's drums.

So it's not about MP not being in the band. It's about how MM's drums have been mixed, pure and simple.

Yes, of course there are folks with genuinely negative opinions  about drum sound, mixing, etc. But that's not my point. My point is the recurrence of the discussion.

I'll illustrate it this way: DT releases a new album and there are some negative comments about how the bass have been mixed: "gosh, it's too low in the mix / I can't hear the bass!". How many times has this happened? It's not unusual, right? But doesn't this matter take on this proportion? It doesn't generate as much engagement and it doesn't last that long.
Overall, it will be virtually no commented until the next album.

Is it the same with the discussions regarding drum sound/drum in the mix? Not fucking way! How many times have I followed a discussion about "the drum sound on the DT" since MP quit? 100 times? 200? 300 maybe? I don't know, but enough.

Why the difference?

Two possibilities, in my view:

1) Bass ranks last in the "instruments I really care" list.
2) The former drummer's name is Mike Portnoy.

Possibly a drum sound that doesn't please bother you more than a bass sound that doesn't.

It is common for this to happen.
I wasn't satisfied with Dave LaRue's bass sound on JP's solo record or Tony Levin's bass sound on LT3.
Was there an argument here and there? Yes.
Lots of? Don't.
Has it passed? Already.
Discussions about bass sound, in general, are always like this, ephemeral and dispassionate. 

Personally I believe that ignoring  number 2 is a lot of innocence. The fact that MP left DT completely altered the fans' relationship with the band, on all levels. To me this is clear as water. And I have no doubt that this is fundamental for the discussion "drums on the DT" to come back every other day.

In general, it is not about music.

I don't know. I just think that it's more to the fact that there are two drummers, with vibrant personalities, with differing styles, and differing sounds from differing eras that gives us all a lot to chew on. I don't think that it's "MP" has a lot to do with it. I think there's a finite things to discuss, and the drums allows a lot of conversation in comparisons alone. I think that's why there's more juice.

Oh, and  yes, the bass is way down on points of interest.

[Setlist Scotty]

Dedalus, I see what you're saying, but to a degree, I think your comparison with the bass is a false equivalent, because aside from WDaDU, I don't think that the bass has *ever* been prominent in the mix, so as much as it's a bit of an irritation to fans who would like JMX higher in the mix, it's the status quo for DT albums. The same is not the case for the drums. And the change in the sound of the drums only happened after MP left. The fact that some who have been overly critical of MP are among those who have a problem with MM's drums shows that it's not a MP-fanboy issue, but that there's an actual objective difference in the sound of the drums between MP and MM-era releases.

[Ben_Jamin]

The biggest issue a lot of fans seem to have with MM is that he isn't MP and that he doesn't sound like MP. And that would've happened to anyone who came in to replace MP after being the only drummer in the band for 25 years...
I'm convinced DT could've brought Neil Peart in to replace MP and people would've still complained

Yes and this is completely evident.

The band has already gone through more drastic changes in terms of composition/sound/technique: KM -> DS -> JR, but fans behave as if the band's big musical change was the absence of MP, which doesn't make any sense logical and rational.

I disagree - while it may be true that there are some who are complaining just because it's someone other than MP at the drum kit, just look at some of the individuals who are posting in this thread that have a problem with MM's sound. For example, both Kotowboy and KevShmev. Both of these guys has been very critical of MP and have welcomed MM with open arms into DT, yet they still are taking issue with the sound of MM's drums.

So it's not about MP not being in the band. It's about how MM's drums have been mixed, pure and simple.

I myself, have issues with Mangini's drum mix as well. But, not enough for me to say much about it. To me, his best mix has been D/T and Distant Memories.

And JP being an only producer and his first album going solo being ADTOE, it doesn't surprise me how JP pretty much took control over everything in the album. To get a feel for what he can handle and what he can't. And already having a set of demos to go right away after choosing the new drummer, helped a lot I think. Even if the drums on the demos were done by JP. The drums recorded for ADTOE are all Mangini, adding his flair and personality to those programmed drums.

It didn't help the next album suffered in the drum department due to JP's odd decision to down tune the snare that low. Mangini had a problem with it, but what could he do, he is not the producer, and doing that may be stepping over that position of Producer.

The next album was a concept album so the mix was vastly different to compensate for the vocals being high in the mix. I actually think the drums sound great on this, and what suffered was more of the lower end, in order for the higher treble of the vocals, guitars, keys, orchestra, and choir to be included.

D/T is the album where Mangini could finally let loose, and it does show with his drumming. It's really great and sounds fantastic. I have the Untethered Angel Stem Tracks and his drums sound neat in that song. (I actually should try mixing them).


As you can see, Mangini hasn't really had an opportunity to really let loose. From what we are hearing by the band members, it is looking to sound like the next step above D/T.

 

[Dedalus]

Dedalus, I see what you're saying, but to a degree, I think your comparison with the bass is a false equivalent, because aside from WDaDU, I don't think that the bass has *ever* been prominent in the mix, so as much as it's a bit of an irritation to fans who would like JMX higher in the mix, it's the status quo for DT albums. The same is not the case for the drums. And the change in the sound of the drums only happened after MP left. The fact that some who have been overly critical of MP are among those who have a problem with MM's drums shows that it's not a MP-fanboy issue, but that there's an actual objective difference in the sound of the drums between MP and MM-era releases.

About the bass: not all records have the bass completely buried in the mix. I&W and Awake have decent bass sounds. ToT too (by the way, the second thing I like about that record - the other is Vacant ). There is a difference between the albums. What there isn't is the discussion about. 

Certainly, you have a fair point. Fans were used to the standard MP drum sound. OK, it's true. But didn't we have time to understand the new status quo? How many more years will we need? My guess is that this will never cease to be discussed regularly, as long as the band lasts with MM.

I see the "MP issue" similar in several other bands. It's the same affective mechanism that drives fans in love with Blackmore to the true horror of Steve Morse. It isn't unusual.

[Dedalus]

I don't know. I just think that it's more to the fact that there are two drummers, with vibrant personalities, with differing styles, and differing sounds from differing eras that gives us all a lot to chew on. I don't think that it's "MP" has a lot to do with it. I think there's a finite things to discuss, and the drums allows a lot of conversation in comparisons alone. I think that's why there's more juice.

Oh, and  yes, the bass is way down on points of interest.

But the same can be said about the differences between keyboard players.
But in reality we stopped discussing KM years ago. DS is just a scene from a memory.   

Anyway ...

[TAC]

Some people never stop discussing Kevin Moore.

[KevShmev]

As someone who is being referred to as being "overly critical" of Portnoy, my criticism of him is rarely about his drumming, but more about the man himself and some of his behavior over the years, most of which I stand by.  He is one of my favorite drummers of all time, but I never call him one of my favorite musicians because I am not a fan of him as a person.  Just wanted to clarify that.

[Setlist Scotty]

As someone who is being referred to as being "overly critical" of Portnoy, my criticism of him is rarely about his drumming, but more about the man himself and some of his behavior over the years, most of which I stand by.  He is one of my favorite drummers of all time, but I never call him one of my favorite musicians because I am not a fan of him as a person.  Just wanted to clarify that.

I didn't mean it in an overly negative way, but just that you aren't a biased MP-fanboy. 

[Pettor]

In regards to drumming, I think D/T was a much needed album. Mixing has been an issue, specially the drumming. But that isn't the only big issue with the drumming. It has been said millions of times but Portnoy was so melodic in his play style and for me who doesn't care about drumming in a technical sense, Mangini was a hard fit. Mixing can't save that.

However, D/T is just a pleasure. Not sure if they told Mangini to play more melodic or their new way of composing changed it, but I have only good things to say about the drums on that album. I really hope they understood something from D/T and keep all that for next album.

I also think moment like the insane drum intro of PBD was needed. Like this very clear beast moment that simple minded people like me can say "holy damn" at, even if the technical drummer fans can argue how that's in theory an easy part and that super incredible polyrhythm hidden somewhere is much harder etc. A show of part basically 👍

[Kotowboy]

I miss bands putting In The Studio DVDs out with their new CDs. If bands can't afford it anymore - then why not just upload it directly to YouTube? No Manufacturing costs AT ALL.

The last really good one i got was Mastodon's one for Crack The Skye which was 90 minutes.

They did do one for Emperor of Sand but it was in bits and uploaded to YouTube every now and then with the full film arriving much much later.

[KevShmev]

As someone who is being referred to as being "overly critical" of Portnoy, my criticism of him is rarely about his drumming, but more about the man himself and some of his behavior over the years, most of which I stand by.  He is one of my favorite drummers of all time, but I never call him one of my favorite musicians because I am not a fan of him as a person.  Just wanted to clarify that.

I didn't mean it in an overly negative way, but just that you aren't a biased MP-fanboy. 

You've got that covered.

[gzarruk]

I miss bands putting In The Studio DVDs out with their new CDs. If bands can't afford it anymore - then why not just upload it directly to YouTube? No Manufacturing costs AT ALL.

They'd sill need to pay someone to compile and edit the whole thing, tho. (unless they do that themselves)

[Ben_Jamin]

I miss bands putting In The Studio DVDs out with their new CDs. If bands can't afford it anymore - then why not just upload it directly to YouTube? No Manufacturing costs AT ALL.

The last really good one i got was Mastodon's one for Crack The Skye which was 90 minutes.

They did do one for Emperor of Sand but it was in bits and uploaded to YouTube every now and then with the full film arriving much much later.

Before a band puts In The Studio footage on YouTube, they need to hire people to record them, and then to edit that footage into a video first. That's manufacturing costs.

[kirksnosehair]

The biggest issue a lot of fans seem to have with MM is that he isn't MP and that he doesn't sound like MP. And that would've happened to anyone who came in to replace MP after being the only drummer in the band for 25 years...
I'm convinced DT could've brought Neil Peart in to replace MP and people would've still complained

Yes and this is completely evident.

The band has already gone through more drastic changes in terms of composition/sound/technique: KM -> DS -> JR, but fans behave as if the band's big musical change was the absence of MP, which doesn't make any sense logical and rational.

I disagree - while it may be true that there are some who are complaining just because it's someone other than MP at the drum kit, just look at some of the individuals who are posting in this thread that have a problem with MM's sound. For example, both Kotowboy and KevShmev. Both of these guys has been very critical of MP and have welcomed MM with open arms into DT, yet they still are taking issue with the sound of MM's drums.

So it's not about MP not being in the band. It's about how MM's drums have been mixed, pure and simple.

On the money.  My critique has nothing to do with Portnoy no longer being in the band and it's not about wanting Portnoy back.  MM wasn't my first pick when they were auditioning drummers, I was hoping they'd pick the other MM, but they went with Mangini.  The only album they've done with Mangini that I ever listen to is ADTOE.  I really have very little use for everything else they've released with him.   I think his playing is a bit on the robotic side, but that probably wouldn't be such a big deal if the drums on all the albums after ADTOE sound far too bright and inorganic. 


But if you asked me "what's the last thing Dream Theater needs right now?" my answer would be "Mike Portnoy" I miss how his drums were mixed, but other than that, meh. I get more than enough of a Portnoy fix from Neal Morse and Transatlantic.

[gzarruk]

One more month to go and we'll finally get some real updates about the new album. It's getting hard to wait
Hoping for a big info dump next month and that the September-ish release wasn't moved to October or later.

Something that could be happening is that if this new album is mostly about long songs, they could probably only have a couple shorter tracks (something similar to BC&SL in format, not style), so they can only release two of those, one fast and one slow, as pre-album singles, hence the usual 3 month IO marketing campaign wouldn't really work here and they're going for a shorter promotional run this time (all speculation, of course).

[Sebastián Pratesi]

I'm also wondering whether they plan to include "The Holiday Spirit Carries On" as a bonus track on the album.

[noxon]

I miss bands putting In The Studio DVDs out with their new CDs. If bands can't afford it anymore - then why not just upload it directly to YouTube? No Manufacturing costs AT ALL.

They are making a proper making of video for this new album. It's been said in interviews, one of which I did on my YouTube channel...

[Kotowboy]

I miss bands putting In The Studio DVDs out with their new CDs. If bands can't afford it anymore - then why not just upload it directly to YouTube? No Manufacturing costs AT ALL.

The last really good one i got was Mastodon's one for Crack The Skye which was 90 minutes.

They did do one for Emperor of Sand but it was in bits and uploaded to YouTube every now and then with the full film arriving much much later.

Before a band puts In The Studio footage on YouTube, they need to hire people to record them, and then to edit that footage into a video first. That's manufacturing costs.

Or they could do it themselves. I'm sure between the 5 / 6 of them they could figure out how to use a "computer" . . . 

[nikatapi]

I miss bands putting In The Studio DVDs out with their new CDs. If bands can't afford it anymore - then why not just upload it directly to YouTube? No Manufacturing costs AT ALL.

They are making a proper making of video for this new album. It's been said in interviews, one of which I did on my YouTube channel...

That's great. Hopefully it will be better than the one we got for DT12 which was a few shots from inside the studio and the usual "it's great" quotes.
Kind of miss JR's updates as well, probably he decided he'll give more attention to patreon, which gives him money, can't blame him.

[Mladen]

I miss bands putting In The Studio DVDs out with their new CDs. If bands can't afford it anymore - then why not just upload it directly to YouTube? No Manufacturing costs AT ALL.

They are making a proper making of video for this new album. It's been said in interviews, one of which I did on my YouTube channel...

I've been waiting for this one since Systematic chaos. 

[Ben_Jamin]

I miss bands putting In The Studio DVDs out with their new CDs. If bands can't afford it anymore - then why not just upload it directly to YouTube? No Manufacturing costs AT ALL.

The last really good one i got was Mastodon's one for Crack The Skye which was 90 minutes.

They did do one for Emperor of Sand but it was in bits and uploaded to YouTube every now and then with the full film arriving much much later.

Before a band puts In The Studio footage on YouTube, they need to hire people to record them, and then to edit that footage into a video first. That's manufacturing costs.

Or they could do it themselves. I'm sure between the 5 / 6 of them they could figure out how to use a "computer" . . .

The only one who actually went out of their way to record stuff was Mike Portnoy, and likely due to him being a film buff and a wannabe director.

And also, they're not video editors, or video producers. That takes time and it'll take away the time from them focusing on band stuff.

Mike Portnoy went out of his way, to the point of exhaustion, just so fans can get these "benefits" like Making ofs, and the recording of Ytsejam material. It was his DAT they used to record on. That's why I will always say, Portnoy spoiled Dream Theater fans by going out of his way for stuff fans want.

[darkshade]

The only DT album where I have trouble hearing the bass most of the time is BC&SL. Upgrade your speakers. 

[jonny108]

Cryptic video posted on Dream Theater World Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/TheDreamTheaterWorld/posts/5788515877890372

[Mladen]

Wait a minute, I'm still exhausted trying to figure out what Iron Maiden is up to. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Those look like track times.

And also some artwork where things are missing, like the Girl in the Images and Words screenshot.

I actually like how it's a viewfinder.

Lots to look into with that vid and I am ready for more.

[Max Kuehnau]

The bits not taken from former front covers do point to Hugh Syme having done the cover art again: https://www.facebook.com/TheDreamTheaterWorld/posts/5788515877890372

[devieira73]

19 songs with total running time of 126:18?!

[Another_Won]

What could this mean at the end?

TA 09:32. ATC 07:35