DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[Cool Chris]

I don't get this whole "marketing/promotion cycle" thing, but I am not the target of any of these marketing campaigns. If a new album comes out that I might be interested in, I hope someone here posts about it, cause otherwise I am probably not going to hear about it.

[Dream Team]

Because of the throwaway culture we live in (especially when it comes to how most people listen to music: “what’s today’s hit song I’m supposed to listen to and like?”) it’s important for a band like DT to NOT just throw this into the stream to get consumed and forgotten.

You just reminded me of something my 15 yr old brother actually said.

He was listening to Spotify pop or something and I said " why are you listening to that ? " and his response was along the lines of " Because it's new and trendy " and not " Because I like it "

and I was like " so you only listen to what Spotify tells you to ? " and he was like " ...yeah ? " . 

They'll never know the joy of actually loving a BAND and following their career and buying their CDs or Records and reading along whilst listening to the entire album in one go.

I weep.

[KevShmev]

I will say this: after recent listens of both Terminal Velocity and LTE3, both of which sound much better than any DT record since probably 6DOIT (talking about the mix, specifically), if DT15 doesn't sound similar to both in regards to mix and sound quality, I will be a little disappointed. Those albums show that Petrucci still knows how to make a record sound really good, so hopefully those two recent albums were reminders and we get a great-sounding DT record later this year.

[gzarruk]

I will say this: after recent listens of both Terminal Velocity and LTE3, both of which sound much better than any DT record since probably 6DOIT (talking about the mix, specifically), if DT15 doesn't sound similar to both in regards to mix and sound quality, I will be a little disappointed. Those albums show that Petrucci still knows how to make a record sound really good, so hopefully those two recent albums were reminders and we get a great-sounding DT record later this year.

If DT15 was mixed by Andy Sneap, which was sort of accidentally revealed a while ago, we could expect something very similar sounding to TV.

[Ben_Jamin]

Depends on how many layers of tracks are in each song that Andy has to mix.

With regards to both LTE 3 and TV, I do not think they had a lot of tracks to mix. Mainly just like 2-3 guitar, a simple drum mic setup, and keys (for LTE 3), and the bass (For LTE 3, you add more tracks if they have Levin's many fun instruments).

If they didn't decide to mess with any new types of production styles and go for a more refined D/T sound, I will be excited. D/T has a great mix for the MM era of DT.

Kind of a shame that the self-titled is full of experimental production choices, like that snare tone and the chocolate cake layers of guitar.

[KevShmev]

I will say this: after recent listens of both Terminal Velocity and LTE3, both of which sound much better than any DT record since probably 6DOIT (talking about the mix, specifically), if DT15 doesn't sound similar to both in regards to mix and sound quality, I will be a little disappointed. Those albums show that Petrucci still knows how to make a record sound really good, so hopefully those two recent albums were reminders and we get a great-sounding DT record later this year.

If DT15 was mixed by Andy Sneap, which was sort of accidentally revealed a while ago, we could expect something very similar sounding to TV.

That would be rad.

[Architeuthis]

If they didn't decide to mess with any new types of production styles and go for a more refined D/T sound, I will be excited. D/T has a great mix for the MM era of DT.

I hope they don't drown the vocals with too much chorus..   

[Raise the Drum]

The Christmas song they released sometime ago was pretty decent in terms of mixing.
I feel that maybe they'll come up with something like that for this album.

[Kotowboy]

The Christmas song they released sometime ago was pretty decent in terms of mixing.
I feel that maybe they'll come up with something like that for this album.

  if anything i'd say that was a bit too far on the dry side of the spectrum.

[nikatapi]

If they didn't decide to mess with any new types of production styles and go for a more refined D/T sound, I will be excited. D/T has a great mix for the MM era of DT.

I hope they don't drown the vocals with too much chorus..   

I'm afraid that's a given if we consider the inevitable decline in James' voice. But i would be pleasantly surprised if that's not the case in the upcoming album.

[Dream Team]

If they didn't decide to mess with any new types of production styles and go for a more refined D/T sound, I will be excited. D/T has a great mix for the MM era of DT.

I hope they don't drown the vocals with too much chorus..   

I'm afraid that's a given if we consider the inevitable decline in James' voice. But i would be pleasantly surprised if that's not the case in the upcoming album.

Yeah, unfortunately James’ raw voice often has an unusual timbre that is not always pleasant. Maybe some quiet sections of songs in certain keys he would be ok in, but for belting probably not.

[kirksnosehair]

For me the drums have been the biggest disappointment in terms of the mix since Portnoy left.  Not the playing so much as the way the kit sounds, especially the snare and bass drums.  I'd really prefer a more organic/acoustic drum sound this time. 

[Kotowboy]

That's partly MMs fault as he plays every hit at the same velocity on purpose. He sounds like a drum machine. Plus he's obsessed with playing smack bang on the grid.

He says that playing smack bang on the beat with every hit has just as much feel as someone like MP or Lars Ulrich or Gavin Harrison who ebb and flow with the music.

I disagree but i'm obsessed with groove and feel and less so about being technical.

[Peter Mc]

If you’re obsessed with groove and feel and not technical drumming why on Earth would you listen to Mike Portnoy?  He’s literally the poster child for ridiculous, self-indulgent, technical drumming, about as far from a “feel and groove” guy as you can get.  Don’t get me wrong, I love his work but even I acknowledge that he overplays on his ridiculously sized drum kit.

[Dream Team]

Right. It all comes down to personal preference.

[KevShmev]

I have noticed that about Mangini, his knack for bashing the crap out of every single hit, when there are times where a lighter touch is necessary and/or more fitting.  Go watch the live version of Speak to Me from the 5 Years in a LiveTime.  Portnoy's cymbal work during the verses is very simple and understated, yet fits the song perfectly.  I never get that "lighter touch" feel from Mangini's playing.  It's like the volume of everything he hits is at 11.

[nikatapi]

I've said that in the past and i'll say it again. The biggest issue mangini has is the production of his drum sound, as having seen him live (outside of a DT show) changed my perspective.
He's definitely way behind MP in terms of making his drums sound great. And it shows with how inconsistent his sound has been throughout the albums he's been a part of.

But, i can't believe that someone hears this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqojyUeTc8 and says that Mike has no dynamics or whatever.

[Kotowboy]

If you’re obsessed with groove and feel and not technical drumming why on Earth would you listen to Mike Portnoy?  He’s literally the poster child for ridiculous, self-indulgent, technical drumming, about as far from a “feel and groove” guy as you can get.  Don’t get me wrong, I love his work but even I acknowledge that he overplays on his ridiculously sized drum kit.

I meant dynamics. MP clearly plays for the song with ups and downs whilst MM plays for the time signature.

I have noticed that about Mangini, his knack for bashing the crap out of every single hit, when there are times where a lighter touch is necessary and/or more fitting.  Go watch the live version of Speak to Me from the 5 Years in a LiveTime.  Portnoy's cymbal work during the verses is very simple and understated, yet fits the song perfectly.  I never get that "lighter touch" feel from Mangini's playing.  It's like the volume of everything he hits is at 11.

Exactly. He's taught himself to literally play everything at the exact same volume constantly. I've seen a lot of pro shot solos of his on YouTube and every single one is incredibly boring.

I saw a Simon Phillips drum solo too and he was doing the same kind of playing. One of those solos where it's all about rudiments and being technical and musically they're unbearably tedious.

And any time they start playing a groove - it lasts for approximately 4 bars then they go back to "look how independent I am!" and avoiding the snare on any downbeat or 2 and 4 like the PLAGUE.

[Dream Team]

Mangini is definitely playing softer during the first half of the Breaking All Illusions solo. I've noticed it on all live versions and the studio version.

[KevShmev]

I've said that in the past and i'll say it again. The biggest issue mangini has is the production of his drum sound, as having seen him live (outside of a DT show) changed my perspective.
He's definitely way behind MP in terms of making his drums sound great. And it shows with how inconsistent his sound has been throughout the albums he's been a part of.

But, i can't believe that someone hears this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqojyUeTc8 and says that Mike has no dynamics or whatever.

True, and I know he has said that it was out of his control, but now I am not no sure. Both JP's solo album and LTE3 sound terrific, in overall sound and in the drum sound, so it's not like John Petrucci has forgotten how to get an album to sound good.  Perhaps there is something in the way Mangini records his drums that makes them difficult to mix well with the other instruments or something to that effect. 

[nikatapi]

I've said that in the past and i'll say it again. The biggest issue mangini has is the production of his drum sound, as having seen him live (outside of a DT show) changed my perspective.
He's definitely way behind MP in terms of making his drums sound great. And it shows with how inconsistent his sound has been throughout the albums he's been a part of.

But, i can't believe that someone hears this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqojyUeTc8 and says that Mike has no dynamics or whatever.

True, and I know he has said that it was out of his control, but now I am not no sure. Both JP's solo album and LTE3 sound terrific, in overall sound and in the drum sound, so it's not like John Petrucci has forgotten how to get an album to sound good.  Perhaps there is something in the way Mangini records his drums that makes them difficult to mix well with the other instruments or something to that effect.

I can't imagine MP letting JP call all the shots on the drum sound on both JP's solo and LTE3 to be honest.

[Setlist Scotty]

I've said that in the past and i'll say it again. The biggest issue mangini has is the production of his drum sound, as having seen him live (outside of a DT show) changed my perspective.
He's definitely way behind MP in terms of making his drums sound great. And it shows with how inconsistent his sound has been throughout the albums he's been a part of.

But, i can't believe that someone hears this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqojyUeTc8 and says that Mike has no dynamics or whatever.

True, and I know he has said that it was out of his control, but now I am not no sure. Both JP's solo album and LTE3 sound terrific, in overall sound and in the drum sound, so it's not like John Petrucci has forgotten how to get an album to sound good.  Perhaps there is something in the way Mangini records his drums that makes them difficult to mix well with the other instruments or something to that effect.

I can't imagine MP letting JP call all the shots on the drum sound on both JP's solo and LTE3 to be honest.

Maybe not on LTE3, but on JP's solo album? Absolutely! MP was just a session guy, even if he is JP's friend and former bandmate. JP was in full control of his solo album. I can only imagine that JP may have asked for MP's input, but given that JP's worked without MP for over 10 years now, I have my doubts about that. Plus JP has always been the one more focused on the sound and sonic presentation - not MP. It was JP who wanted SFaM to be remixed by Kevin Shirley - MP was fine with David Bottrill's mixes.

[goo-goo]

I've said that in the past and i'll say it again. The biggest issue mangini has is the production of his drum sound, as having seen him live (outside of a DT show) changed my perspective.
He's definitely way behind MP in terms of making his drums sound great. And it shows with how inconsistent his sound has been throughout the albums he's been a part of.

But, i can't believe that someone hears this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqojyUeTc8 and says that Mike has no dynamics or whatever.

True, and I know he has said that it was out of his control, but now I am not no sure. Both JP's solo album and LTE3 sound terrific, in overall sound and in the drum sound, so it's not like John Petrucci has forgotten how to get an album to sound good.  Perhaps there is something in the way Mangini records his drums that makes them difficult to mix well with the other instruments or something to that effect.

I can't imagine MP letting JP call all the shots on the drum sound on both JP's solo and LTE3 to be honest.

Maybe not on LTE3, but on JP's solo album? Absolutely! MP was just a session guy, even if he is JP's friend and former bandmate. JP was in full control of his solo album. I can only imagine that JP may have asked for MP's input, but given that JP's worked without MP for over 10 years now, I have my doubts about that. Plus JP has always been the one more focused on the sound and sonic presentation - not MP. It was JP who wanted SFaM to be remixed by Kevin Shirley - MP was fine with David Bottrill's mixes.

And this is what bums me out about JP...TV sounded gorgeous but then DT12 and ADTOE to some extent, the sound quality is subpar. The Astonishing was a bit better and D/T was leagues above the Mangini era albums but all of them, imo, are still subpar compared to Terminal Velocity.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Mangini is definitely playing softer during the first half of the Breaking All Illusions solo. I've noticed it on all live versions and the studio version.

Mangini is extremely dynamic in his playing, but definitey in a very nuanced and sometimes not-obvious way like Portnoy is (not taking anything from MP, whose style I admire greatly of course).

Also, remember when the overall criticism to MM’s sound in the ADTOE era was that he wasn’t hitting his drums hard enough? Lol

[Ben_Jamin]

I've said that in the past and i'll say it again. The biggest issue mangini has is the production of his drum sound, as having seen him live (outside of a DT show) changed my perspective.
He's definitely way behind MP in terms of making his drums sound great. And it shows with how inconsistent his sound has been throughout the albums he's been a part of.

But, i can't believe that someone hears this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqojyUeTc8 and says that Mike has no dynamics or whatever.

MP was also the producer when he was in the band. So of course his drum sound is going to sound good.

I think the main reason is the way a kit is built and structured. It makes a big difference in how it's going to be recorded and sound.

Mangini has an odd structure for a drum kit and recording it is quite a challenge for the techs, getting each sound without any bleed from any other drums or cymbals. Using the right mics for that certain snap or warmness, where the mics are placed. And also how the drums are tuned. Then those drum tracks have to fight with any other tracks the other band members want to add to the sonic space.

I am now wondering if that sonic space is why Mangini had to down tune his snare. As certain sonic qualities and sounds were impacting what JP wanted from the entire sonic spectrum.

Or it just could've been a, let's try this and see how it sounds.

[gzarruk]

Mike said the snare sound for the self-titled was worked by JP, Eric (drum tech) and Rich Chycki, and that is was a production choice by JP.

[RMGadelha]

Double post, sorry. 

[RMGadelha]

This is coming from someone who knows zilch about music theory and drums, but Mangini to me was like one of those songs you don't really enjoy or understand at first listen, but once you do, they become one of your favourites. When I first heard MP, I instantly liked what I was listening to. With MM it was different. I was like "meh", but once I listened to the recent albums more and more, I REALLY loved all of the little details of his playing and started to love the fact that he was DT's drummer.

[Dream Team]

Mangini is definitely playing softer during the first half of the Breaking All Illusions solo. I've noticed it on all live versions and the studio version.

Mangini is extremely dynamic in his playing, but definitey in a very nuanced and sometimes not-obvious way like Portnoy is (not taking anything from MP, whose style I admire greatly of course).

Also, remember when the overall criticism to MM’s sound in the ADTOE era was that he wasn’t hitting his drums hard enough? Lol

Yup I remember.

[evilasiojr]

If you don't like any of Mangini's drum sound on any DT record, it seems unfair to me to blame him, as he has already stated several times: he has next to zero saying on how the drums are recorded and mixed/produced. His control goes up until the tuning of the drums most times, because in DT12 even the snare tuning was decided by the production team without him there.

Now if it's the playing, that's another thing.

[gzarruk]

The biggest issue a lot of fans seem to have with MM is that he isn't MP and that he doesn't sound like MP. And that would've happened to anyone who came in to replace MP after being the only drummer in the band for 25 years...

I'm convinced DT could've brought Neil Peart in to replace MP and people would've still complained

[nikatapi]

The biggest issue a lot of fans seem to have with MM is that he isn't MP and that he doesn't sound like MP. And that would've happened to anyone who came in to replace MP after being the only drummer in the band for 25 years...

I'm convinced DT could've brought Neil Peart in to replace MP and people would've still complained

Well there's also that.
We can't deny that MP apart from being an incredibly influential and creative drummer (up until SDOIT at least, he started sound the same after that) is also a genius in marketing. His drum cam videos, his constant interaction with the fans has created a huge following, and presented his ability and creativity on many different aspects of the band.

MM on the other hand is slowly starting to be more upfront with the lessons, drum cam videos and all that, and due to his more laid-back approach has been in the shadow of MP for a long time. MP has had a great sound forever and on most of the albums he's been a part of, while MM was more focused on getting the drum kit he envisioned, but not making it sound incredible on recordings.

He personally told me that he wasn't satisfied with his sound on ADTOE when i interviewed him, as he felt it was sounding like it was recorded with only two microphones in the room. I guess not wanting to shake things up too much and being the "new guy", he trusted JP for the sonic direction of the album.

Overall, i think it took a while, but now it seems that both MM and JP have gotten to a point where they can get the drums to sound "right" (maybe more familiar to what we are used to in DT), and i'm hopeful that the new album will be an improvement on D/T. It's a pity though for MM because the things he plays are really different and unique, might not be the super tight hi-hat sounds and tricks with the splashes that MP does, but it's on another level and very musical. Only it's a bit hidden by the wall of guitar especially on ADTOE which is in my opinion one of the most muffled sounds on DT's catalog.

[Lax]

I guess it's not the right channel to discuss mp vs mm again but I wanted to participate to this interesting convo.

1) The drumkit sound is the main issue, for real, too matte, no color in toms sounds, etc, it's not fear factory, it's dream theater !
The first thing that jumps to my ears is that previous drumkits had merged sounds of a powerful kit as a base and lots of tones around, from cymbals making crazy sounds to toms+secondary snare making sounds from the percussion world (I mean with south-equatorial vibes).
The early MM era drumkit sounds like a drum xylophone, everything sounds the same but with the full scale covered :/

2) The play style, it's way more personnal, if you ignore the drumkit sound, I always loved how portnoy followed melodies with toms and cymbals.
On the other hand MM is awesome so I can listen to both.
There could have been a bigger difference between them, since if you really think about it, MP isn't fearless flyers' drummer and MM isn't a grindcore drummer...

BTW it makes me think of joey jordisson and jay wenberg in slipknot, it's kind of the same story !

[darkshade]

My issue with MM isn't so much his style or his technique, it's the recordings themselves, which isn't necessarily his fault.

But the biggest issue I've had with Mangini-era DT is that a lot of the compositions sound like they were created BECAUSE MM is so technically proficient, but just because you can play something with incredibly odd timing or throw in these extra notes or bars to a section, doesn't mean it's going to flow well, or sound good. I noticed this type of thing started happening on BC&SL, so it isn't just because MM is behind the kit, but MP would make those little parts flow better with his style. With MM, it sounds tighter, but still comes off as complexity for the sake of it, which does nothing for me, and I'm a musician.

So many examples in the last 4 albums, I can't think of one off the top of my head, but think of that short section in The Count of Tuscany that leads into the ambient section, where the arpeggio sounding part have that one extra count added in between each rep. MP makes it sound more natural, with MM, something like that they try to make it sound as insane as possible, but to my ears it sounds overly complex for the sake of it, and doesn't flow, as MP's style keeps a thread going underneath while all the complex stuff happens above, if that makes any sense.

[Ben_Jamin]

The biggest issue a lot of fans seem to have with MM is that he isn't MP and that he doesn't sound like MP. And that would've happened to anyone who came in to replace MP after being the only drummer in the band for 25 years...

I'm convinced DT could've brought Neil Peart in to replace MP and people would've still complained

Out of all the drummers that auditioned, Marco Minneman is the one that I feel is the closest to Mike Portnoy.

Mangini is an entirely unique drummer though. He doesn't think like your normal drummer. He thinks in numbers and that seems like it's his personality and how he himself actually thinks. He's fascinated by numbers, math, and patterns and incorporates the interest into his life and hobbies. I mean, his song is based on a guy obsessed with numbers, he wore a math jersey on Distant Memories, and how he incorporates number patterns into his composing.

I personally think a lot of people miss the cymbal work of Portnoy and how he made a complex time signature easily accessible by adjusting his drum patterns to make it feel more smooth.