DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[Enigmachine]

Did the band ever said why they went with a different artist for The Astonishing? I'd be interested to know what prompted this decision since they've been working with Hugh Syme for years and went back to work with him right after. It's a bit unfortunate because Jie Ma has some really cool work that fits with the sort of realistic surreal style that the band is going for. It would have been nice to see what they could have done for a regular album.

Also, just throwing this out there, I'm available if they're looking for a new artist...

I sorta wonder if there was a private falling out due to the packaging really not doing his art justice. I know I'd be pissed if I made this:



Not only did it not get into the booklet, but they ruined other great pieces with ugly fonts splattered over them and terrible formatting. It really can't be strongly stated enough how badly they skewered the art when, of all the amazing, intricate pieces he did, they went with this as their back cover:



A drab sky shot with a NOMAC awkwardly half in the frame and not even centred, the song titles not consistently formatted and the goddamned white on white credits. This must've been a bit of a gut punch to him, to say the least. Imagine seeing that this is how your art gets represented.

[CDrice]

I guess that's a possibility. That'd be unfortunate if it was the case though.

[fadetoblackdude7]

Hugh has indeed gotten lazy with the past few albums but I have no major problem with him. That being said, I think they should definitely go for someone else from here on out.

[Kotowboy]

Nope. Just way too cluttered for my liking. I like really simple but striking artwork like Mastodon's The Hunter or Metallica's St Anger.

[Kotowboy]

As soon as DT15 is mastered - they could release a single digitally and then the digital version of the album like a month later.

Then they could release the physical copies in September as planned.

It does seem a bit odd just sitting on an album for literally Half A Year

[Enigmachine]

Nope. Just way too cluttered for my liking. I like really simple but striking artwork like Mastodon's The Hunter or Metallica's St Anger.

I mean I dislike both of those (at least if the original Hunter cover is the one you mean), so I guess tastes and all. There's a time and a place for simple and straightforward covers but imo I want something I can lose myself in the detail of. His cover for Where Echoes Gather is something perhaps less cluttered looking but still very striking in its depth:

As soon as DT15 is mastered - they could release a single digitally and then the digital version of the album like a month later.

Then they could release the physical copies in September as planned.

It does seem a bit odd just sitting on an album for literally Half A Year

Yeah agreed. I get the standard 2/3 month promo cycle, but when it's potentially going to October for the purposes of leading up more smoothly to a touring schedule, that's just silly.

[nobloodyname]

It does seem a bit odd just sitting on an album for literally Half A Year

I dunno. Maiden have now been sitting on their new album for about 13 years.

(I agree with you!)

[Setlist Scotty]

Worth noting that the cover I posted is actually painted, not CGI.

Wow! Really? Could've sworn that it was CGI. That said, I don't have a problem with CGI if it's done in such a way as to look organic. As an example, the CGI used in the Lord of the Rings movies was very well done. If a cover had that kind of quality CGI (not speaking of the content), I'd be totally down with that. But that Helloween, while obviously an organic painting doesn't do anything for me either. I guess if it were to be a painting, I'd like something along the lines of Rush's Grace Under Pressure (my favorite cover of theirs) or even the original Vapor Trails.
 
 

In large part I think this is a product of convenience. Nowadays, stock images will be more widely accessible and easier to use for what he'd want to achieve wheras for the bulk of Rush's covers (remember only 3 Rush albums are in this century and only 1 is in the 2010s), they weren't even in an era where browsing through millions of stock images through the internet was even possible and therefore necessitated that more bespoke approach. I suspect if the tools had been there at the time, they would've been more in use. As for any more modern ones that don't rely on stock images, we can kinda take the simple explanation with this one and say that he didn't use stock images in those cases because he couldn't find ones relevant enough to justify using them, which I can easily see being the case with something like Rush's Clockwork Angels given its very unique aesthetic. I can also see it being the case for Octavarium, as he probably had a very specific look in mind and whatever stock image hosts were out there (I'm sure they weren't as ubiquitous in 2005 as they are now), nothing really cut it.

Honestly, I probably agree that it'd be preferable for him to go that more bespoke approach for each album but I can understand the reasoning for not going that route. It's why I don't think Hugh is the best artist for DT because he strikes me as an artist who sort of takes the path of least resistance that, to get a more substantial piece out of him, you would have to be  particular in your specification. John Petrucci doesn't strike me as a particularly confrontational or pushy person so that more relaxed character might not be getting the best out of Syme in this environment. That's just speculation, though. Maybe they went through numerous iterations of that skull and hand piece that we don't know about, but I kind of doubt it.

Oh there's no doubt it's a matter of convenience, and if used to a limited degree or heavily modified, that's fine. But yeah, at least for the cover art, it would be better to use original images/elements rather than just downloading something, which somebody else could also do.

As for JP's relationship with Hugh (and MP before him) - I think you're pretty spot on about them not being confrontational or pushy with what they want for imagery. From the times I spoke with MP about it, I always got the impression they put their full trust him unless it was something that was way off the mark.
 
 

Did the band ever said why they went with a different artist for The Astonishing? I'd be interested to know what prompted this decision since they've been working with Hugh Syme for years and went back to work with him right after.

If I'm not mistaken, actually Hugh passed on doing the art for TA when JP explained what he wanted, because it was really beyond Hugh's element. But they've always been happy with Hugh's art and packaging, which is why they went back to him for d/t.
 
 

I like really simple but striking artwork like Mastodon's The Hunter or Metallica's St Anger.

The Hunter is cool, but St. Anger? No thanks! Horrible artwork. Can't believe that's what Pushead came up with after all the art he had done for Metallica previously.

[darkshade]

If you follow the news even poorly, you have to wonder if we'll be talking about DT16 and whether or not there will be touring to support it.

[Kotowboy]

If I'm not mistaken, actually Hugh passed on doing the art for TA when JP explained what he wanted, because it was really beyond Hugh's element.

He couldn't google " Futuristic City with orbiting spheres Stock images " ? 

[Enigmachine]

That's... pretty fortunate actually. I guess at least he knows when to decline a commission.

Admittedly, me posting Eliran Kantor is mainly just that he's to my taste. He probably doesn't suit Dream Theater as much as more extreme bands (other than the more fantastical vibe of the Helloween painting). Some others could be Blacklake (who did all Haken albums onwards from The Mountain as well as both Headspace albums) and Corey Meyers (did Leprous' Malina). However, I suspect that they'll stick with Hugh Syme due to them probably being friends at this point. That point about how MP interacts with Hugh seems pretty on the mark to what I'd expect.

[JediKnight1969]

Call George Grie for the graphic art

http://neosurrealismart.com/

[Enigmachine]

Oh yeah that's some excellent stuff, kinda reminds me of what Carlos Fides did for Evergrey on The Storm Within, which is another artist I feel would fit DT's vibe.

[Lupton]

Regarding the lyrics in TA booklet. I've come to consider the white font on light white/blue background as a throwback to the 1st WDaDU CD pressing (an import I bought way back in the day), where you can't read any of the lyrics to several of the songs for much the same reason. 

[Enigmachine]

I presume you mean this:



To be fair, it's not actually as bad at the TA credits for legibility, but yeah it's still pretty badly formatted. Speaking of the TA back cover though, I actually did my own version of the back cover to try and improve on what we got, using another one of Jie Ma's pieces:

[Lupton]

I presume you mean this:



To be fair, it's not actually as bad at the TA credits for legibility, but yeah it's still pretty badly formatted. Speaking of the TA back cover though, I actually did my own version of the back cover to try and improve on what we got, using another one of Jie Ma's pieces:

Yep. That's the one. I'm really more so referencing the lyric booklets for both records. I must have spent hours squinting my eyes trying to follow along with the story in The Killing Hand. It's also just as hard to read on The Ones Who Help Set the Sun & Only A Matter of Time. 

BTW, it's cool the way you managed to encorporate Heaven's Cove (I think?) into your own creation there. IMO It ties the artwork more specifically to something in the story.

[Ben_Jamin]

I presume you mean this:


To be fair, it's not actually as bad at the TA credits for legibility, but yeah it's still pretty badly formatted. Speaking of the TA back cover though, I actually did my own version of the back cover to try and improve on what we got, using another one of Jie Ma's pieces:

I would've like that used with the Original Cloud background. Would've made it look more....Uniform. But I see why he used that as the back cover, due to Consistency with the front cover.

[Setlist Scotty]

Regarding the lyrics in TA booklet. I've come to consider the white font on light white/blue background as a throwback to the 1st WDaDU CD pressing (an import I bought way back in the day), where you can't read any of the lyrics to several of the songs for much the same reason. 

Not sure how serious you are, but I think it's pretty safe to say that was not the intention of whoever designed the packaging for TA or who OK'd it. WDaDU was done on a shoe-string budget as the debut album for a band on a label who dropped the ball on all the promises they made to promote it. Not to mention it is something that JP would probably rather leave in the distant past. TA was quite the opposite on all fronts.

[Enigmachine]

Yep. That's the one. I'm really more so referencing the lyric booklets for both records. I must have spent hours squinting my eyes trying to follow along with the story in The Killing Hand. It's also just as hard to read on The Ones Who Help Set the Sun & Only A Matter of Time. 

BTW, it's cool the way you managed to encorporate Heaven's Cove (I think?) into your own creation there. IMO It ties the artwork more specifically to something in the story.

Yeah if it's anything like on the back of the WDaDU back cover on that right side, I can assume that it's nigh on incomprehensible. Both sets of packaging reek of something that was clearly rushed out the door and didn't have anyone suggesting that maybe there should be a second draft.

Also yep, that's Heaven's Cove alright. I remember something like that being the backdrop for the original TA website, so I aimed to emulate that vibe to some degree. Honestly, I was kinda shocked that not only is the actual back cover a waste of a perfectly good oppurtunity to include a location like that, but Heaven's Cove isn't anywhere in the booklet, unless you count the backdrop to Faythe. I honestly don't know what the designer was thinking there. Weirdly, Jie Ma's name is also printed as "Jiema".

I would've like that used with the Original Cloud background. Would've made it look more....Uniform. But I see why he used that as the back cover, due to Consistency with the front cover.

I mean, I don't know. I think for an album with a world as dynamic as that, it seems such a shame to just fill the back cover with a bland sky texture, especially given that there's not much else in the packaging either in regards to the booklet. I'd prefer a contrast, as DT's back covers often have anyway. To be honest though, if I could find that background without the text on it, I probably would've given it a go.

[gzarruk]

I sorta wonder if there was a private falling out due to the packaging really not doing his art justice. I know I'd be pissed if I made this:



Not only did it not get into the booklet...

To be fair, that picture wasn't made for DT/TA. Jie Ma's Behance profile lists that one on a folder (album?) called "Whalefall City" (https://www.behance.net/gallery/33058543/Whalefall-City).

IIRC, the band (most likely JP or Jordan) saw that illustration online and thought something with that style would work perfectly for the album, so they reached out to Jie Ma to work on the artwork for TA.

Here's the folder with all the artwork he did for TA: https://www.behance.net/gallery/33454637/Dream-Theater-2016-new-album-The-Astonishing-artwork

Did the band ever said why they went with a different artist for The Astonishing? I'd be interested to know what prompted this decision since they've been working with Hugh Syme for years and went back to work with him right after.

If I'm not mistaken, actually Hugh passed on doing the art for TA when JP explained what he wanted, because it was really beyond Hugh's element. But they've always been happy with Hugh's art and packaging, which is why they went back to him for d/t.

Wow, I didn't know Hugh passed on that, but it makes total sense. That's probably when they started looking for artists that would fit the project.

[Cool Chris]

If I'm not mistaken, actually Hugh passed on doing the art for TA when JP explained what he wanted, because it was really beyond Hugh's element.

He couldn't google " Futuristic City with orbiting spheres Stock images " ? 

 

[geeeemo]

The DT 15 thread has almost as many pages as the Astonishing (5 years) thread..   

[Lupton]

Not sure how serious you are, but I think it's pretty safe to say that was not the intention of whoever designed the packaging for TA or who OK'd it. WDaDU was done on a shoe-string budget as the debut album for a band on a label who dropped the ball on all the promises they made to promote it. Not to mention it is something that JP would probably rather leave in the distant past. TA was quite the opposite on all fronts.

Oh I was really just having a laugh. Still... I remember that 1st attempt to follow along with the TA story I kept thinking "Hmmm. Something about this experience is a bit reminiscent?"

[lucasembarbosa]

What if DT launch Lost Not Forgotten Archives in the near future to keep us busy till the album release in October?

[Enigmachine]

In all fairness, Jordan said October in a pretty off the cuff way so it's very possible that he may have overshot whatever date it ends up being. I do suspect that it'll probably end up being in that late September / October / November (?) range, but I think probably closer to the former. My guess is that they're being a bit cautious just because the album isn't fully done yet and they want to manage expectations in case something goes wrong. I do hope we get at least something by early May though, like an announcement, a snippet, or even a more concrete hint at what the album is or what it contains. Apparently they're planning to document this album a bit more heavily so it'll be interesting to see how that works out, too.

[CDrice]

I do hope we get at least something by early May though, like an announcement, a snippet, or even a more concrete hint at what the album is or what it contains.

Or the smile of dawn

Did the band ever said why they went with a different artist for The Astonishing? I'd be interested to know what prompted this decision since they've been working with Hugh Syme for years and went back to work with him right after.

If I'm not mistaken, actually Hugh passed on doing the art for TA when JP explained what he wanted, because it was really beyond Hugh's element. But they've always been happy with Hugh's art and packaging, which is why they went back to him for d/t.

Oh that's nice to know! Thanks for the info 

[MirrorMask]

I do hope we get at least something by early May though, like an announcement, a snippet, or even a more concrete hint at what the album is or what it contains.

Or the smile of dawn

 

[Enigmachine]

ah yes

On another note, it'll be interesting to see if we'll get any more hints in Jordan's upcoming chat (tomorrow, as a matter of fact) with Jimmy T on his YT channel. I kind of doubt it and at most it'll probably just be more along the lines of what's been said already, but still.

[dream75]

As soon as DT15 is mastered - they could release a single digitally and then the digital version of the album like a month later.

Then they could release the physical copies in September as planned.

It does seem a bit odd just sitting on an album for literally Half A Year

D / T was mastered in September 2018 and was released at the end of February 2019...

[jonny108]

As soon as DT15 is mastered - they could release a single digitally and then the digital version of the album like a month later.

Then they could release the physical copies in September as planned.

It does seem a bit odd just sitting on an album for literally Half A Year

D / T was mastered in September 2018 and was released at the end of February 2019...

They didn't finish recording until September 2018 so I'm not sure it was mastered then was it?

[Enigmachine]

D / T was mastered in September 2018 and was released at the end of February 2019...

Well, recording finished in that month, I'm not sure about mastering, given that I've seen articles of mixing lasting until about late October. That aside, from the end of recording to release, D/T was about 5 months while DT15 would be 7, if it does end up getting released in October. Now that I compare them actually, it's not as drastic as I would've thought. InsideOut seem to have a more relaxed pace to releasing DT albums and the pandemic really only seems to have offset things by a couple months at most, which definitely isn't as bad as it could've been. Considering that there's probably much more music to mix master than the 61 minutes of D/T as well, the extra delay to what there would usually be probably isn't that much.

[Kotowboy]

I find that once recording is DONE - mixing & mastering combined takes about another month - then another three months til release.

But i think it will seem quicker as news will trickle in and they'll be promoting it and singles / videos will happen etc etc...

[dream75]

As soon as DT15 is mastered - they could release a single digitally and then the digital version of the album like a month later.

Then they could release the physical copies in September as planned.

It does seem a bit odd just sitting on an album for literally Half A Year

D / T was mastered in September 2018 and was released at the end of February 2019...

They didn't finish recording until September 2018 so I'm not sure it was mastered then was it?

Maybe October but album was released at least 4 months later

[dream75]

I find that once recording is DONE - mixing & mastering combined takes about another month - then another three months til release.

But i think it will seem quicker as news will trickle in and they'll be promoting it and singles / videos will happen etc etc...

I think snippet and tracklist in June, first single in July and album at September

[Enigmachine]

That's my hunch too actually, my estimate being 24th of September for the release, 9th of July (11 weeks from release, just like D/T) for the single and 11th of June for the full announcement (15 weeks from release, just like D/T).