Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea

[Adami]

Ok, I'd hate to be too much nosey, but


Is the faucet handle ok now?

[emtee]

Funny story.

Been married 33 years and we've compromised thousands of times but in this case I think the onus was on her to call.

Not sure I agree.  She felt like she did her due diligence.  Orbert wasn't satisfied with that (and he was ultimately correct) so the onus was on him to call.  I mean, if my old man didn't trust my judgment on something like that, I'd invite him to check it out for himself.  Or go run the errand by myself.

I mean, it's ok to take responsibility for doing what we ourselves think is correct in a given situation.  I don't mean be a dick about it.  Just if it is that important to you, take the bull by the horns.

He pointed out correctly though that many websites have not been updated. Given the lockdown, essential workers and businesses, etc., there was at least a 50% chance it was closed. Also, the local hardware store, the one that was open, was overruled by her in favor of the other place. I don't see this as a trusting judgement issue. I see it--albeit from a distance and not personally knowing her--as potential laziness

Anyways...Mars, Venus and all that

[Harmony]

Funny story.

Been married 33 years and we've compromised thousands of times but in this case I think the onus was on her to call.

Not sure I agree.  She felt like she did her due diligence.  Orbert wasn't satisfied with that (and he was ultimately correct) so the onus was on him to call.  I mean, if my old man didn't trust my judgment on something like that, I'd invite him to check it out for himself.  Or go run the errand by myself.

I mean, it's ok to take responsibility for doing what we ourselves think is correct in a given situation.  I don't mean be a dick about it.  Just if it is that important to you, take the bull by the horns.

He pointed out correctly though that many websites have not been updated. Given the lockdown, essential workers and businesses, etc., there was at least a 50% chance it was closed. Also, the local hardware store, the one that was open, was overruled by her in favor of the other place. I don't see this as a trusting judgement issue. I see it--albeit from a distance and not personally knowing her--as potential laziness

Anyways...Mars, Venus and all that

Well, I can see that.  But he was the one who wanted/needed to be sure the store was open.  It didn't seem like she cared enough to worry about it.  Certainly not enough to take the extra step of calling.

Back to the "being direct" point of my first post here - this is where the "Do you want to call or should I?" comes in.  If she clearly doesn't care to call and it clearly is his issue/concern, then he should be the one who calls.

[Orbert]

That's all true.  If I wanted to be absolutely sure, I still could have called.  But in the end, getting out of the house didn't seem like a bad idea anyway, and I had already wasted far too much time and energy on the issue.

Ok, I'd hate to be too much nosey, but


Is the faucet handle ok now?

Nope.

[Harmony]

That's all true.  If I wanted to be absolutely sure, I still could have called.  But in the end, getting out of the house didn't seem like a bad idea anyway, and I had already wasted far too much time and energy on the issue.

Just wondering..is it possible that was her goal all along?  Being direct works both ways.  Maybe she isn't being direct with you?  "Yeah honey, I may be wrong about that place being open.  But I'd really like us to get out of the house and go for a drive anyway.  You good with that?"

[Lethean]

It's funny that so many of us hate to call.  I certainly do.  TAC,  Stadler, as well.  And why?  It only takes a minute, no big deal, but I still hate doing it.

[Phoenix87x]

I can not stand calling either. Its like torture to me. I will hesitate for days even to make a doctor's appointment over the phone 

Checking info on an online site and making online appointments are a godsend 

[emtee]

I don't understand the shared distaste for calling. Why? Is this a generational thing?

Hello, are you open? Ok, thanks

Total elapsed time--25 seconds.

What am I missing?

[Cool Chris]

I have anxiety when it comes to talking on the phone. Always have. My phone rings, my heart beats faster. I will take all necessary steps to do anything I can before resorting to calling some (other than my immediate family) Still, I'd end up calling Orbert's faucet place without it stressing me out.

[Orbert]

That's all true.  If I wanted to be absolutely sure, I still could have called.  But in the end, getting out of the house didn't seem like a bad idea anyway, and I had already wasted far too much time and energy on the issue.

Just wondering..is it possible that was her goal all along?  Being direct works both ways.  Maybe she isn't being direct with you?  "Yeah honey, I may be wrong about that place being open.  But I'd really like us to get out of the house and go for a drive anyway.  You good with that?"

It is possible.  She can be quite clever when it comes to manipulating me.  I fall for it most of the time, and only figure out later what happened, if at all.  Sometimes I can see it coming, and if I recognize it, I just shut it down.  I work the conversation back into the direction I'd prefer.  There's no point in calling it out ("You're just trying to manipulate me!") because she's successful at it often enough that it's still worth it to her to keep trying.

Love is blind, but mostly, love is stupid.

[The Walrus]

I have anxiety when it comes to talking on the phone. Always have. My phone rings, my heart beats faster. I will take all necessary steps to do anything I can before resorting to calling some (other than my immediate family) Still, I'd end up calling Orbert's faucet place without it stressing me out.

Precisely this. Using my phone as an actual phone (outside of my immediate family) fills me with dread. Phone calls are one of the least enjoyable things.

[Orbert]

Technology has turned many of us into isolationists.  I just made that up; I have no idea if it's a real word or anything.

But consider.  Most of us of a certain age grew up actually talking on the phone.  Now, most people just send a text.  Entire conversations take place by text.  There was a time when I absolutely hated that.  Just call the person and talk to them.  But with the "convenience" of texting, it has all but replaced real time conversation.  If someone is in the middle of something and can't answer right away, they'll get back to you when they can (usually).  I know, there are exceptions.  My kids freak out if they text someone and that person doesn't answer in 10 seconds.  But you know what I mean.

Same with website vs just calling them.  My position is that the website is only as accurate as the last time someone updated it, and that's only if they did that correctly.  But if I call and actually talk to someone, I can ask them what their hours are, or if I get a recording that says they're closed, I can still take that as more accurate and/or up-to-date than their website.  But at some point, actual real-time human interaction became the exception rather than the norm, and that trend is not likely to change.  People would rather get their information, conduct their business, without actually dealing with other humans interactively.

[Lethean]

I have anxiety when it comes to talking on the phone. Always have. My phone rings, my heart beats faster. I will take all necessary steps to do anything I can before resorting to calling some (other than my immediate family) Still, I'd end up calling Orbert's faucet place without it stressing me out.

Precisely this. Using my phone as an actual phone (outside of my immediate family) fills me with dread. Phone calls are one of the least enjoyable things.

I'm like that too! At least with my heart starting to beat a little faster.  And I completely agree with emtee that it takes a few seconds and it's no big deal. And yet, I just don't want to do it. I have no problem talking with friends on the phone, or even work calls - that's fine too. But otherwise, I really hate it. I call if I need to though - if I can't get the info I need online, I'll suck it up and do it.

[Indiscipline]

I have anxiety when it comes to talking on the phone. Always have. My phone rings, my heart beats faster. I will take all necessary steps to do anything I can before resorting to calling some (other than my immediate family) Still, I'd end up calling Orbert's faucet place without it stressing me out.

Precisely this. Using my phone as an actual phone (outside of my immediate family) fills me with dread. Phone calls are one of the least enjoyable things.

I have the exact opposite anxiety: I don't feel comfortable missing calls and consequent info/opportunities.

That's why I asked about the faucet; not to be a dick or a judgemental dick, but because a malfunctioning piece of house hardware would be a way bigger problem to me than making a call.

[The Walrus]

My thing is I like to multitask. I am always multitasking. Been like that my whole life. I struggle to multitask on the phone because it requires full engagement and I get restless; I would rather have that engagement face to face. But I'm also fairly, er, weird about in-person socialization. If it ain't a concert, I ain't talkin' to you.

[Harmony]

That's all true.  If I wanted to be absolutely sure, I still could have called.  But in the end, getting out of the house didn't seem like a bad idea anyway, and I had already wasted far too much time and energy on the issue.

Just wondering..is it possible that was her goal all along?  Being direct works both ways.  Maybe she isn't being direct with you?  "Yeah honey, I may be wrong about that place being open.  But I'd really like us to get out of the house and go for a drive anyway.  You good with that?"

It is possible.  She can be quite clever when it comes to manipulating me.  I fall for it most of the time, and only figure out later what happened, if at all.  Sometimes I can see it coming, and if I recognize it, I just shut it down.  I work the conversation back into the direction I'd prefer.  There's no point in calling it out ("You're just trying to manipulate me!") because she's successful at it often enough that it's still worth it to her to keep trying.

Love is blind, but mostly, love is stupid.

Yes, you are right.  But you can be smarter about it with practice.

Obviously I don't know you and I don't know your whole situation so I'm just spit balling a bit here.  I have no desire to stick up for someone who is setting out to be manipulative.  I hate that shit.  But some people don't even realize they are doing it.  It is often a learned behavior from their own upbringing.  And if that changes it's on her, not YOU, to change it.  That said, instead of calling it out just be direct with her.  "I'd like you to call.  If you don't, I will."  And if this upsets her, then that's on her.  You are communicating what your need is and you are doing it directly.  If this becomes a consistent pattern with you, she'll either have to adjust to it or not.  At least you are being honest and fair and you aren't stuffing your own emotions.

Maybe this is part of a larger discussion that needs to be had between both of you.  "How can be both get our needs met without feeling hurt, mistrusted, or manipulated?  How can we make it a win/win when we have a disagreement?"

Believe me.  BELIEVE ME - I know this is easier said than done.  But maybe it's worth at least trying to have the discussion for your peace of mind.

Relationships are fucking hard work.

[Indiscipline]

My thing is I like to multitask. I am always multitasking. Been like that my whole life. I struggle to multitask on the phone because it requires full engagement and I get restless; I would rather have that engagement face to face. But I'm also fairly, er, weird about in-person socialization. If it ain't a concert, I ain't talkin' to you.

Then pretend we're at a concert and I'm talking to you: multitask whatever you're doing AND breathing, my friend. 

[Phoenix87x]

I have anxiety when it comes to talking on the phone. Always have. My phone rings, my heart beats faster. I will take all necessary steps to do anything I can before resorting to calling some (other than my immediate family) Still, I'd end up calling Orbert's faucet place without it stressing me out.

Precisely this. Using my phone as an actual phone (outside of my immediate family) fills me with dread. Phone calls are one of the least enjoyable things.

I'm like that too! At least with my heart starting to beat a little faster.  And I completely agree with emtee that it takes a few seconds and it's no big deal. And yet, I just don't want to do it. I have no problem talking with friends on the phone, or even work calls - that's fine too. But otherwise, I really hate it. I call if I need to though - if I can't get the info I need online, I'll suck it up and do it.

Me four all the way.

[Orbert]

That's all true.  If I wanted to be absolutely sure, I still could have called.  But in the end, getting out of the house didn't seem like a bad idea anyway, and I had already wasted far too much time and energy on the issue.

Just wondering..is it possible that was her goal all along?  Being direct works both ways.  Maybe she isn't being direct with you?  "Yeah honey, I may be wrong about that place being open.  But I'd really like us to get out of the house and go for a drive anyway.  You good with that?"

It is possible.  She can be quite clever when it comes to manipulating me.  I fall for it most of the time, and only figure out later what happened, if at all.  Sometimes I can see it coming, and if I recognize it, I just shut it down.  I work the conversation back into the direction I'd prefer.  There's no point in calling it out ("You're just trying to manipulate me!") because she's successful at it often enough that it's still worth it to her to keep trying.

Love is blind, but mostly, love is stupid.

Yes, you are right.  But you can be smarter about it with practice.

Obviously I don't know you and I don't know your whole situation so I'm just spit balling a bit here.  I have no desire to stick up for someone who is setting out to be manipulative.  I hate that shit.  But some people don't even realize they are doing it.  It is often a learned behavior from their own upbringing.  And if that changes it's on her, not YOU, to change it.  That said, instead of calling it out just be direct with her.  "I'd like you to call.  If you don't, I will."  And if this upsets her, then that's on her.  You are communicating what your need is and you are doing it directly.  If this becomes a consistent pattern with you, she'll either have to adjust to it or not.  At least you are being honest and fair and you aren't stuffing your own emotions.

Maybe this is part of a larger discussion that needs to be had between both of you.  "How can be both get our needs met without feeling hurt, mistrusted, or manipulated?  How can we make it a win/win when we have a disagreement?"

Believe me.  BELIEVE ME - I know this is easier said than done.  But maybe it's worth at least trying to have the discussion for your peace of mind.

Relationships are fucking hard work.

It may be conscious manipulation, and it may be subconscious.  It may even be manipulation, but she does it without it even occurring to her that it's wrong.  ("How can I get him to <do something>?  I know, I'll just <say something slightly related>, and then he'll think about it, and do it.")  And it works, because among the things that I place a high value on are (1) doing the right thing, and (2) making my wife happy.  So ultimately, I am doing it for the right reasons, kinda, but it took a somewhat less than completely honest approach on her part to get there.

As far as changing it, having the discussion... I don't know.  We've been married over 30 years.  People do continue to change, but honestly, I've come to accept our relationship for the imperfect thing that it is.  In some ways, I feel like I've gotten the better end of our arrangement, and in others, not so much.  I'm pretty sure she feels the same way (though I've never actually asked her).  It's give and take on both sides.  Yes, it makes sense to want to address things that one feels are wrong and which can be fixed.  But there comes the question of how much effort is involved, how much potential upside there is to it, and how much potential downside there is from stirring things up that aren't really that bad.  I come on DTF with my horror stories, but mostly I'm just venting.  I have guy friends, but we've never been the type to sit around and bitch about our wives.  It's just not part of the vibe.  Mostly, when we get together, we get stoned and/or make music together.

By the way, Thank You for your perspective.  I haven't actually done the math, but for every guy here telling me to just talk to her, there are probably ten who already know how it's gonna go and would tell me not to kick the hornet's nest.  But a genuine female perspective is rare for me.  I don't have female friends who I can talk about this stuff with, and I appreciate your input without judgement.

[TAC]

I just don't want to be that guy asking the dumb questions.

Clerk: "Hello."

Me: "Um..are you open?"

Clerk (rolling his eyes thinking I answered the fucking phone didn't I?): "Yes we are."

Me: "OK just checking."

Clerk: "Ok bye." (thinking...asshole!)

[Harmony]

To Orbert - You are welcome.  And you are right too.  Sometimes it's just better to take the high road and let the small stuff slide.  I get it.  After nearly 30 years of marriage, I bite my tongue at least once every day.   

I just don't want to be that guy asking the dumb questions.

Clerk: "Hello."

Me: "Um..are you open?"

Clerk (rolling his eyes thinking I answered the fucking phone didn't I?): "Yes we are."

Me: "OK just checking."

Clerk: "Ok bye." (thinking...asshole!)

Ok but why do you care what some store clerk fucking thinks about you?!?      I mean it's not like you are going to walk into that store and he's going to point at you, laugh, and loudly say "Hey look everybody!  It's the asshole who called to see if we were open!" 

Plus he's getting minimum wage to answer questions from assholes who call in anyway.  It's his job!   

[Orbert]

I just don't want to be that guy asking the dumb questions.

Clerk: "Hello."

Me: "Um..are you open?"

Clerk (rolling his eyes thinking I answered the fucking phone didn't I?): "Yes we are."

Me: "OK just checking."

Clerk: "Ok bye." (thinking...asshole!)

I know that feel.  I specifically phrase my response in the form of a hopefully non-stupid question.

"Hi, how late are you open today?" is a fave.  Obviously they're open if they answered the phone, but customers don't necessarily memorize their hours.  If they say something like "We're open 9 to 9 every day" with a tone that implies that I should've known that, well fuck them, I didn't know.  If I'd known, I wouldn't have called.  That way I can at least feel like they were the asshole, not me.



ETA: As Harmony says, they're the minimum wage shmuck whose job it is to answer my questions.  I gave him something to do.  He should be grateful!

[The Walrus]

I just don't want to be that guy asking the dumb questions.

Clerk: "Hello."

Me: "Um..are you open?"

Clerk (rolling his eyes thinking I answered the fucking phone didn't I?): "Yes we are."

Me: "OK just checking."

Clerk: "Ok bye." (thinking...asshole!)

I am that asshole clerk regularly. Sorryyyy 

[TAC]

I just don't want to be that guy asking the dumb questions.

Clerk: "Hello."

Me: "Um..are you open?"

Clerk (rolling his eyes thinking I answered the fucking phone didn't I?): "Yes we are."

Me: "OK just checking."

Clerk: "Ok bye." (thinking...asshole!)

Ok but why do you care what some store clerk fucking thinks about you?!?      

Oh I don't care what they think of me. But I care what I think of me, and I don't want to put myself in the position of embarrassing myself for asking a dumb question. I have way more pride than that. I would rather drive to a store that's closed than to call and see if they're open.

[Harmony]

I just don't want to be that guy asking the dumb questions.

Clerk: "Hello."

Me: "Um..are you open?"

Clerk (rolling his eyes thinking I answered the fucking phone didn't I?): "Yes we are."

Me: "OK just checking."

Clerk: "Ok bye." (thinking...asshole!)

Ok but why do you care what some store clerk fucking thinks about you?!?      

Oh I don't care what they think of me. But I care what I think of me, and I don't want to put myself in the position of embarrassing myself for asking a dumb question. I have way more pride than that. I would rather drive to a store that's closed than to call and see if they're open.

And yet you don't care what we are all thinking about you.  You know we are all judging you now.    

[TAC]

Not at all. DTF is like being with your friends at recess.

[Phoenix87x]

Has anyone read the book Men are from mars, women are from Venus?

Orbert, I think you would enjoy the read. I got it when my last relationship was starting to fall apart and it was a fascinating read.

[Orbert]

Where do you think I got the title of this thread?

But to answer your question, No.  I did skim through a copy at the bookstore one time.  That bookstore is now out of business.  Draw your own conclusions.

[Stadler]

Ok but why do you care what some store clerk fucking thinks about you?!?      I mean it's not like you are going to walk into that store and he's going to point at you, laugh, and loudly say "Hey look everybody!  It's the asshole who called to see if we were open!" 

Plus he's getting minimum wage to answer questions from assholes who call in anyway.  It's his job!   

Not picking on you here, because you're right as rain in the cold light of day, but... if it was only that easy.  I don't know if "change" is the right word, because I don't feel like I have changed, but when I was in college, I was so self-conscious about people that if my class started and I wasn't in the room, I would turn around and go back to the dorm rather than walk in.   When I did my senior thesis presentation, in front of the entire engineering school, I blacked out a little, in the sense that I don't remember ANY of it.  I did it, we did a good job (presenting a parking lot design on campus - that ultimately got built, by the way!) but I don't remember even a second of it.   I must've heard Gene Simmons say 1,000 times something to the effect of, "just go up and talk to them (women). The worst they can do is say "no", and you move on to the next one.  You only need one "yes"."   Now, I'm still self-conscious about certain things, but I have no problem initiating conversations.   And one of those things that I'm self-conscious about is that notion of "what are they thinking?"   

It's hard for me, because I don't want to be oblivious.  There's something I value about being self-aware, and while I certainly think I'm the cat's meow (kidding, sort of) I also think we're all flawed, myself included.  I want to be as realistic as I can, and sometimes that means being overly critical about things that don't really matter in the long run.  Leaving a wake of "holy FUCK is that guy an idiot" is one of those things. 

Odd tangent, but I watched a four-hour bio on Garth Brooks the other night.  And there's a lot to make fun of about him.  He's not shy, and he's clearly insecure in the way that many celebrities are, and yet there's... well, there's a whiff of insincerity about him.  He got choked up like 2,000 times in the doc, and I'm like "you're Garth friggin' Brooks.  Gimme a break."  But I realized about 3 and a half hours in, that that's who he is.  He's an emotional raw nerve, and it feeds everything he does.  He has this need to be loved and liked and admired (some of his record sales records are... gamed, for lack of a better word), and while it's easy for me to be judgemental from a distance, there's not ONE PERSON that was interviewed - including ex-wives, his kids, ex-bandmates, people who should have or could have had a grudge - who took a shot at him.  They were honest - the ex was up front about what he did or didn't do as a husband or a dad - but every one of them at one point or another said the same thing:   he cares, maybe too much, and it's what makes him "Garth Brooks^TM".   I'm not Garth Brooks, and yet, I think there's something to that idea of wanting to be better at every opportunity.   

[Harmony]

Hey, I'm the last one to make fun of anyone's insecurities and I was just giving folks shit.  I mean, at one point in my life I WAS that pimply faced store clerk telling assholes that yes, we are open.  Maybe I'd roll my eyes sometimes, but whatever made the shift go by faster, you know?

Social anxiety is a thing.  I've had my bouts with it at times, especially when I was hormonal after having one of my kids.  I remember sitting in a parking lot at a bank shaking at the thought of having to go in and face a bank teller.  I actually didn't make it in at all IIRC.  So my ribbing here is meant to be just in fun.  Not to judge people with legit anxieties.

And I have had this conversation with my kids who absolutely hate talking on the phone.  It impacts the way people date now and I find it all very sad.  Young people don't get enough practice with one on one conversations or phone calls.  And watching their anxiety when confronted with having to talk in small groups or have a talk with their professor is excruciating as a parent. 

[cramx3]

Add me to the group of people who don't like using the phone.  I mean, in this scenario it's not a big deal to make that call, but in general, I will try to avoid talking on the phone as much as possible.  I think it's the introvert in me, for some reason I always struggled with this.  My college roommate would always make the calls for me on things like this example.  I don't know why I'm like this.

[eric42434224]

I agree with this.  Along with sports of course, we make sure our daughters take part in a lot of school activities like Drama, Debate, Elocution, Honor Society, and evening Spelling Bee..... all have components of public speaking and verbal communication.  I share your worry about society’s lack of interpersonal interaction these days. ( as I type this on a phone to a message board lol)

[Cool Chris]

I've read articles where people have posited that requiring students to engage in public speaking activities/lessons was unfair to those who have anxiety.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/09/teens-think-they-shouldnt-have-to-speak-in-front-of-the-class/570061/

On principle, I don't like the idea of not requiring kids to do something because they are afraid to do it, or because they find it difficult. That doesn't seem like a good way to prepare kids for life. And I say that as someone who would have benefited from never speaking in front of the class. In retrospect, I wish I was made to do more of it, I might be more comfortable now in certain situations. We can't function as a society if we can only communicate with others via Instagram.

[King Postwhore]

I agree with this.  Along with sports of course, we make sure our daughters take part in a lot of school activities like Drama, Debate, Elocution, Honor Society, and evening Spelling Bee..... all have components of public speaking and verbal communication.  I share your worry about society’s lack of interpersonal interaction these days. ( as I type this on a phone to a message board lol)

I completely agree.  Let's add to this.  I call my nephews & Nieces and they don't pick up.  I text and they respond right away.  It's permeating throughout our culture.

[lordxizor]

I find it amusing that the trend these days is to watch a video on something rather than read about it. But to write your communication with friends rather than speak live. Seems like those trends move in the complete opposite direction.