Author Topic: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea  (Read 17774 times)

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #140 on: March 03, 2020, 05:02:03 PM »
I agree wholeheartedly with everything in both of Eric's posts.

I’m writing about this in my Diary.
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #141 on: March 03, 2020, 05:08:36 PM »
Yep.  Marriage is not easy.  It will always take work to keep it fulfilling.  But the rewards are worth the effort.  And there is no such thing as a perfect woman (or a perfect man).

You certainly don't need to settle.  But you should also be realistic and being realistic is not settling it's just realizing your range of choices based on the kind of person you are.

Basically, if you're a fat slob, don't expect a supermodel.  If you're a country bumpkin, don't expect a rocket scientist.

Dating a lot helped me figure out what my realistic range was.

And all of this is based on my own personal experience and is just my opinion.  But, I do have a successful marriage so that may carry a little weight.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #142 on: March 03, 2020, 05:27:40 PM »
Part of being responsible and living a full life is accepting that you do get to choose and you shouldn't let life make decisions for you. Hopefully that makes sense.

There are always choices, but there are also limits to what you can control and what you can't.  Most of us can improve ourselves, sure.  But how much do we invest in that?  And at what point do we stop?  (Edit: Actually, we should never stop trying to improve ourselves as persons, but know that this is only one of many factors in the big picture.)

There are some people who think I'm pretty cool (they've told me so; I swear I'm not making this up), some who might even consider me a prize, but I count them among the many I've fooled.  I'm an asshole.  It honestly amazes me that I ended up with someone who puts up with my shit, and will seemingly do so for as long as we're both alive.  I had choices, sure.  I could choose to marry the woman I'd been dating for seven years, or see if I can do better.  I wasn't "settling" for her.  If it's a given that there's no perfect match, but the one I was with came pretty damned close, then it didn't make sense not to propose.  So it depends on how you look at it, I suppose.  I had a choice, but in a sense, fate had also chosen for me, given me the choice in the first place.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 05:59:09 PM by Orbert »

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #143 on: March 03, 2020, 05:29:33 PM »
Thank God I married a woman who only loses it when I'm not pulling my weight around the house. I'm totally in the wrong.  Though her tactics. lol
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #144 on: March 04, 2020, 06:31:30 AM »
This is an interesting conversation. I'll throw in my two cents.

As for choosing the right person: there's never going to be a perfect person obviously. My wife was great for me in many ways, but wrong in some other ways. It was actually good for me that I saw that early on. I tended to idealize women and ignore their flaws in the past, leading to relationships lasting way past their shelf life or me not being able to move on when they ended since they were "perfect" for me. Ultimately, getting married is a leap of faith. I don't regret getting married for more than a fleeting moment here and there. My wife is awesome, but it hasn't always been easy meshing both our expectations and the realities of life.

I am both a hopeless romantic and a pretty logically minded guy, the combination of which hasn't always meshed together in a useful way in my marriage. The one thing I've been learning here recently in my 13 years of marriage is that your expectations need to be constantly adjusting. Life changes, you change, your spouse changes, and holding everyone to the same expectations despite changing circumstances is a recipe for disappointment. As much as I wish my wife could revert to the 25 year old version of herself that I married, that ain't happening. And frankly, it's been a struggle to let go of my expectations for her that I clung to for far too long. Really, the only expectation you should have is that things are going to change!

Offline Stadler

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #145 on: March 04, 2020, 07:38:07 AM »
Orbert can correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard him as saying that you should just find someone that you kinda get along with that rides along with you in life, and yeah maybe that person isn't your first choice but "they'll do." That's the mentality I buck up against. It could be that I completely misinterpreted him.

You definitely misinterpreted my meaning.  It's much closer to what Eric is saying.  There is no "perfect" match.  Even if you seem to agree on everything, get along fine, are compatible socially, politically, sexually, everything, that will change, because people change.  The odds of finding someone you're 100% happy with and will be for the next 50 years or however love you are together, are zero.  I'm not saying that you settle for the first babe that seems alright.  I'm saying that if you wait for the "perfect" match, you will die alone.  Therefore, adjust your expectations.
Ah, I see. Then it sounds like we are in an accord. :)

EDIT: Well....ugh, maybe we aren't in an accord. The one line from Orbert that really throws me off, just to clarify, is the "you don't get to choose unless you have multiple babes after you" bit. I guess I think that we're all roughly in the same boat, and we all do, in fact, get to choose.

"You play the game, live your life, and you end up with someone" -- This sounds so very passive and, yeah, I'd have to be really defeated to accept something like this. But perhaps I misunderstand Orbert's meaning?

Just to clarify my stance to see who agrees or disagrees with me. You do get to choose. If you're not in a position to choose, you're in a position to improve yourself to get to a point where you are in a position to choose. If you're out of shape and thereby can't score chicks you really like, you can get in shape. If you have a crappy job or live in a crappy state and can't score chicks you really like, you can get a better job and move to a different state. If you dress poorly and can't score fashionable chicks, you get make yourself fashionable to thereby score said chicks. Etc, etc..

Part of being responsible and living a full life is accepting that you do get to choose and you shouldn't let life make decisions for you. Hopefully that makes sense.

I'm REALLY not following that last sentence.   I'm with you on the rest of the stuff - I'm a "tend your own garden" guy, for sure - but I extend that even to the notion of choice.   Isn't it, ultimately, their choice to let life make their decisions for them?  In a very real way, my going to law school (both the basic question of practicing law, and the details of my study) was life choosing for me.  I am perfectly fine with that, no regrets and no concerns. And of all the things we talk about here, I am one of those people that feels blessed on a daily basis; to say I feel I've lived a full life is an understatement.  With respect to 'responsibility', I would argue that being responsible is doing things when there IS no "passion" or driving need.  Part of being "responsible" in a relationship is modeling your behavior to the expectations of the relationship.  If your spouse values fidelity, being "responsible" is actually walking away from those moments that perhaps have "passion" but don't fit in the larger picture.

I generally push back on is this notion that everyone has to have "passion" to have meaning (and I would extend this to beyond relationships, to jobs, hobbies, etc.).   I think "passion" is an entirely overblown concept in the context of happiness, satisfaction, and responsibility. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #146 on: March 04, 2020, 07:39:46 AM »
Basically, if you're a fat slob, don't expect a supermodel.  If you're a country bumpkin, don't expect a rocket scientist.

I am living proof that this is not accurate.  :)

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #147 on: March 04, 2020, 07:55:33 AM »
Basically, if you're a fat slob, don't expect a supermodel.  If you're a country bumpkin, don't expect a rocket scientist.

I am living proof that this is not accurate.  :)

I mean, while I would agree that you're a supermodel rocket scientist, I would not be so quick to call your wife a fat slob country bumpkin. It's rude.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #148 on: March 04, 2020, 08:21:54 AM »
I agree wholeheartedly with everything in both of Eric's posts.

I’m writing about this in my Diary.

If you don't, we are not a match.
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Offline H2

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #149 on: March 04, 2020, 09:12:00 AM »
I generally push back on is this notion that everyone has to have "passion" to have meaning (and I would extend this to beyond relationships, to jobs, hobbies, etc.).   I think "passion" is an entirely overblown concept in the context of happiness, satisfaction, and responsibility.
I do agree with quite a bit of what you said, Stadler. I want to clarify that I do not think passion is commensurate with meaning. I don't think I need that premise to ground what I said before?

Anyway, good discussion. I guess I am just an anti-complacency idealistic youngling. I think about opportunities I had to "settle down" (I hate that phrase) and I look at people my age who are "settling down", and many times I think it is the wrong call. The person could have achieved more, traveled more, gotten more education, moved somewhere better, etc. etc. but now life's obligations (usually family) has shackled them in place.

There's a message I heard on the radio a few years ago that has really stuck with me (and I won't say where I heard it, for fear of the advice being pre-emptively dismissed, because the radio guy is not exactly a model citizen great guy even I want to be). The advice went like this: Don't give up your dreams. First live out your dreams, achieve what you need to achieve, get settled in your career, make the sizable family-supporting income first, then find someone to share your life with. But not before, because the minute you settle down and start knocking out kids, the dream is dead. Give it up. (With rare exceptions--so rare that you cannot count on the off chance that you are one of the exceptions.) And boy, does that advice seem true when I look around at my friends' lives who didn't follow it.

I am a fairly young guy (28), but am open to being convinced I am wrong. But damn I am scared of giving up my dreams by making a complacent safe decision, a decision that life has made for me. Hopefully this shows you guys where I'm coming from.

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #150 on: March 04, 2020, 09:52:27 AM »
I generally push back on is this notion that everyone has to have "passion" to have meaning (and I would extend this to beyond relationships, to jobs, hobbies, etc.).   I think "passion" is an entirely overblown concept in the context of happiness, satisfaction, and responsibility.
I do agree with quite a bit of what you said, Stadler. I want to clarify that I do not think passion is commensurate with meaning. I don't think I need that premise to ground what I said before?

Anyway, good discussion. I guess I am just an anti-complacency idealistic youngling. I think about opportunities I had to "settle down" (I hate that phrase) and I look at people my age who are "settling down", and many times I think it is the wrong call. The person could have achieved more, traveled more, gotten more education, moved somewhere better, etc. etc. but now life's obligations (usually family) has shackled them in place.

There's a message I heard on the radio a few years ago that has really stuck with me (and I won't say where I heard it, for fear of the advice being pre-emptively dismissed, because the radio guy is not exactly a model citizen great guy even I want to be). The advice went like this: Don't give up your dreams. First live out your dreams, achieve what you need to achieve, get settled in your career, make the sizable family-supporting income first, then find someone to share your life with. But not before, because the minute you settle down and start knocking out kids, the dream is dead. Give it up. (With rare exceptions--so rare that you cannot count on the off chance that you are one of the exceptions.) And boy, does that advice seem true when I look around at my friends' lives who didn't follow it.

I am a fairly young guy (28), but am open to being convinced I am wrong. But damn I am scared of giving up my dreams by making a complacent safe decision, a decision that life has made for me. Hopefully this shows you guys where I'm coming from.
I would say getting married doesn't necessarily kill the dream if you have a spouse willing to go along with you, but having kids definitely makes it more difficult. I have always thought that being married made it easier to take risks with my career because it wasn't all on me. My wife had an income as well, so if something doesn't pan out, I'm not out on the street. Dreams don't have to die when you have kids, it just becomes more difficult and demands more intentional effort to make them happen. And there's certainly more at risk if you fail.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #151 on: March 04, 2020, 10:11:59 AM »
I'm sorry, but maybe I missed it.  What exactly are the dreams that are killed off by having kids?  Granted my dreams of driving a Lambo and fucking hot waitresses, in between my backpacking stints across Europe while creating a billion dollar company might be dead......but the love and dreams gained by having kids and a family kind of even that out.  Plus the latter might be a tad easire to actually achieve.

So what dreams are actually killed by marrying and having kids?
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #152 on: March 04, 2020, 10:17:33 AM »
I'm sorry, but maybe I missed it.  What exactly are the dreams that are killed off by having kids?  Granted my dreams of driving a Lambo and fucking hot waitresses, in between my backpacking stints across Europe while creating a billion dollar company might be dead......but the love and dreams gained by having kids and a family kind of even that out.  Plus the latter might be a tad easire to actually achieve.

So what dreams are actually killed by marrying and having kids?
I have a dream of living on the road full time in an RV. Having 3 kids makes this extremely difficult, but not impossible. But yeah, one of my dreams was getting married and having kids, so that was achieved. It depends greatly on what the dream is. The reality is, most people weren't going to achieve their dreams for any number of reasons whether they got married and had kids or not.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #153 on: March 04, 2020, 10:19:40 AM »
There is some wisdom in what the radio guy said, and some that I disagree with.

When I was younger, I tended to think in a more linear fashion.  Do this, then once you've achieved it, you're ready for the next step, which is this.  When you get to a certain point, and only then, are you really prepared for that.  I thought that the traditional path (go to school, get a good job, find a girl, marry her, live happily ever after) sounded good, and was fully prepared to follow that path.

Here's the problem.  Life is not linear.  There are always multiple things going on at once, multiple things affecting what you do today and will do tomorrow.  Despite growing up believing in the traditional path as I understood it, by the time I was in my early 20's, I had completely abandoned it.  I was in a band, we were going to be superstars, and I had no intention of finishing college, let alone finding some boring office job and making a paltry six figures.  Clearly I was destined for greater things.  Then the band broke up, every one of us had quit our day jobs and were suddenly not only broke but in debt and with no income, and most of us crawled back home to Mom and Dad.  I'm just glad I had that option; not all of us did.

I returned to the kitchens.  I'd been a pretty good line cook in a couple of different restaurants, and knew I could do it again, so I did.  During the band years, I'd met a girl and we were still together, so that was cool.  At some point, she suggested maybe taking a few classes at the community college.  Not too expensive, and my parents even agreed to subsidize me.  Fine, I took a few classes.  Then a few more, because why not?  To shorten the story a little bit, I ended up with a Bachelor's and a couple of Associate's plus a teaching certificate, and my first "real" (salaried) job was in a field I would not have even considered back in high school.  Not only that, I enjoyed it and even turned out to be pretty good at it.

Anyway, the point is that life happens.  I thought I had it figured out, but opportunities came up, so I left the path.  That detour eventually ended, and I had to find another path.  You can't plan everything; you can only choose what to do next when something unexpected (or even something expected) happens.  She was with me the whole time, and I credit her for convincing me to go back to school.  In that sense, she is as responsible for my success as I am.  Yeah, I did all the work, but I wouldn't have done it, wouldn't have even considered it, had she not suggested taking a few classes at the community college.

"Don't give up on your dreams" sounds really good, until you realize that for most of us, they are exactly that: dreams.  At some point, I realized that I was never going to be a rock star, or professional musician of any type.  I probably could have worked my ass off, studied, practiced, studied, practiced, studied, and practiced some more, and maybe had some success.  Or I could have done all that for years, and still end up like 99.9% of aspiring professional musicians, which is not being a professional musician.  It made a hell of a lot more sense to do something else.  Did I give up on my dreams?  I guess you could say that.  I prefer to see it as waking up.

Offline H2

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #154 on: March 04, 2020, 10:30:58 AM »
I'm sorry, but maybe I missed it.  What exactly are the dreams that are killed off by having kids?  Granted my dreams of driving a Lambo and fucking hot waitresses, in between my backpacking stints across Europe while creating a billion dollar company might be dead......but the love and dreams gained by having kids and a family kind of even that out.  Plus the latter might be a tad easire to actually achieve.

So what dreams are actually killed by marrying and having kids?
I guess it depends on the person and the dreams in question. Maybe for people who never want to move away who have small dreams, it's not a problem. For me, I would like to work at a big tech company like Google, which necessitates first self-educating in computer science while working, then moving across the country from where I'm currently at to an expensive city where I'd like to (i) invest plenty of quality time into the work (50-60 hr/wk), (ii) have plenty of time to continue my education on the side (10-20 hr/wk), and (iii) live with roommates to drive COL down. Time and money are finite, and family puts a strain on both. If I had a family, it is likely that something in that equation would not work.

There are all sorts of ways a family would get in the way of achieving one's dream. For others, it could involve become a doctor, lawyer, banker, or actor. I looked into law as a possible career path at one point, and I know Big Law folks pour 80-100 hr/wk into their jobs. Can you justify that if you've got a family? Can you morally justify being away from your family for that long? And what if your spouse doesn't want to move to NYC? Or what if you could have afforded it if you were single, because you could put up with a crappy apartment for a few years, but now that you have kids, you've got to live in the suburbs and commute two hours to work every day?  Or consider medicine, which is almost 10 years of incessantly being away from home at the hospital for med school and residency, plus moving from state to state until you land somewhere?

No family = you call 100% of the shots. You can unanimously decide what sacrifices you're going to make to get where you want to go. With a spouse, you've got to compromise with their job and their interests. With children, you've got a moral responsibility to be there for them and provide them a certain kind of lifestyle. You cannot fly if you have roots. I do think family can be a dream-killer.

Sorry, I'll get off my soap box. I just feel a need to respond when challenged.

EDIT: Orbert, it's helpful to see where you're coming from. I am glad things have turned out pretty well for you. I am sorry, but something in me just cannot accept what you say here:
"Don't give up on your dreams" sounds really good, until you realize that for most of us, they are exactly that: dreams.  At some point, I realized that I was never going to be a rock star, or professional musician of any type.  I probably could have worked my ass off, studied, practiced, studied, practiced, studied, and practiced some more, and maybe had some success.  Or I could have done all that for years, and still end up like 99.9% of aspiring professional musicians, which is not being a professional musician.  It made a hell of a lot more sense to do something else.  Did I give up on my dreams?  I guess you could say that.  I prefer to see it as waking up.
I think it's our fundamental point of disagreement.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 10:39:13 AM by H2 »

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #155 on: March 04, 2020, 11:16:04 AM »
H2, I agree with you...if the plans you have are that narrow.  if being successful in X career that takes all your time and energy is your dream....more power to you.  Just do yourself a favor and listen to the advice from some old fogeys that have been there.
1) First.... I say go for your dreams 100%  That being said....
2) Life gets in the way, and many do not achieve certain lofty career goals for a variety of reasons.  Be ready to adapt.
3) Many of those career successful people are incredibly unhappy and lonely with their one dimensional lives.  Don't be surprised if reaching those goals leaves you unfulfilled.  Not saying that will happen to you, but it easily can....be ready to adapt.
4) Balance and variety in life can't be overstated.  There are many other loves, goal, dreams, and aspirations you will come across in your life.  Don't deny them, embrace them, and try to find some balance where you can feel fulfilled with success in many areas of life.  Adapt.
5) Shit goes sideways.  Careers become obsolete.  You can have health issues.  You can fall in love, and out of love.  Be ready to adapt.
6) Learn to Adapt.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #156 on: March 04, 2020, 11:27:19 AM »
I agree wholeheartedly with everything in both of Eric's posts.
I haven't been able to accurately process anything in this thread since reading this.
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #157 on: March 04, 2020, 11:38:38 AM »
H2, I agree with you...if the plans you have are that narrow.  if being successful in X career that takes all your time and energy is your dream....more power to you.  Just do yourself a favor and listen to the advice from some old fogeys that have been there.
1) First.... I say go for your dreams 100%  That being said....
2) Life gets in the way, and many do not achieve certain lofty career goals for a variety of reasons.  Be ready to adapt.
3) Many of those career successful people are incredibly unhappy and lonely with their one dimensional lives.  Don't be surprised if reaching those goals leaves you unfulfilled.  Not saying that will happen to you, but it easily can....be ready to adapt.
4) Balance and variety in life can't be overstated.  There are many other loves, goal, dreams, and aspirations you will come across in your life.  Don't deny them, embrace them, and try to find some balance where you can feel fulfilled with success in many areas of life.  Adapt.
5) Shit goes sideways.  Careers become obsolete.  You can have health issues.  You can fall in love, and out of love.  Be ready to adapt.
6) Learn to Adapt.

Couldn't have said it better myself.  My dreams have changed multiple times depending on what stage of life I'm in.  But I can say this, even though my dreams have changed and some have certainly gone unfulfilled, I wouldn't change my life journey for anything.  including all the bumps along the way.

20 years ago, I would have never guessed that I would become an IT guy, married with 7 children.  I also wouldn't have guessed that I would become legally blind and beat a 20 year long battle with depression.

I wanted to own my own business.  It never worked out.
I wanted to be an architect.  It never worked out.
I wanted to visit Jerusalem.  I did that one.
I wanted to get married.  I did that one.
I wanted to have kids.  I did that one.
I wanted to run for local office.  And I'm still working on that one.

H2,  I think this is all folks here are trying to say.  Have your dreams, that is a really good thing.  But just be OK if some of them change along the way.

All I really want now is to live a happy life, grow old with my woman, enjoy grand kids someday, all the while listening to Dream Theater.  Enjoy the journey man!   :corn
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #158 on: March 04, 2020, 12:19:08 PM »
Basically, if you're a fat slob, don't expect a supermodel.  If you're a country bumpkin, don't expect a rocket scientist.

I am living proof that this is not accurate.  :)

I mean, while I would agree that you're a supermodel rocket scientist, I would not be so quick to call your wife a fat slob country bumpkin. It's rude.

She's not here, though.  So it didn't happen.
 
Right?  Right?

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #159 on: March 04, 2020, 12:26:38 PM »
I agree wholeheartedly with everything in both of Eric's posts.
I haven't been able to accurately process anything in this thread since reading this.

It just proves you can be married and have kids and still reach your loftiest of goals.

Married with kids - check.
Bosk1’s approval - check.
Banging hot waitresses in my Lambo - temporarily on hold.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #160 on: March 04, 2020, 12:43:13 PM »
Praying for you, pal.   :tup
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #161 on: March 04, 2020, 12:45:24 PM »
Praying for you, pal.   :tup

Is one allowed to pray that I get to bang hot babes in a Lambo?
Thank you, your support is appreciated.
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rumborak

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #162 on: March 04, 2020, 12:48:03 PM »
I generally push back on is this notion that everyone has to have "passion" to have meaning (and I would extend this to beyond relationships, to jobs, hobbies, etc.).   I think "passion" is an entirely overblown concept in the context of happiness, satisfaction, and responsibility.
I do agree with quite a bit of what you said, Stadler. I want to clarify that I do not think passion is commensurate with meaning. I don't think I need that premise to ground what I said before?

Anyway, good discussion. I guess I am just an anti-complacency idealistic youngling. I think about opportunities I had to "settle down" (I hate that phrase) and I look at people my age who are "settling down", and many times I think it is the wrong call. The person could have achieved more, traveled more, gotten more education, moved somewhere better, etc. etc. but now life's obligations (usually family) has shackled them in place.

Here's the breakdown, though.  This is all a subjective value judgement.   I have - as I said before - been blessed.  I've done both.  I have the means to do more of those former things.  I get FAR more enjoyment now out of what I bring to and/or get out of family.   I'm not dead, I'm not out to pasture, and there's things I want to see (Egypt, Eastern Europe) but I don't at all see "settling down" as "settling down", but rather shifting priorities, and that's never a bad thing.  That's GROWTH in my view. 

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There's a message I heard on the radio a few years ago that has really stuck with me (and I won't say where I heard it, for fear of the advice being pre-emptively dismissed, because the radio guy is not exactly a model citizen great guy even I want to be). The advice went like this: Don't give up your dreams. First live out your dreams, achieve what you need to achieve, get settled in your career, make the sizable family-supporting income first, then find someone to share your life with. But not before, because the minute you settle down and start knocking out kids, the dream is dead. Give it up. (With rare exceptions--so rare that you cannot count on the off chance that you are one of the exceptions.) And boy, does that advice seem true when I look around at my friends' lives who didn't follow it.

Man plans, and God laughs.   That's all I can say to that.  If that worked for that guy, so be it, but there are no rules.  My wife got pregnant at 18, and at this point she's living her best life (more or less; man plans, god laughs).   Sure, some things are easier/better when you're single, but other things are easier/better when you're in a committed relationship.  Pick your lane. 

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I am a fairly young guy (28), but am open to being convinced I am wrong. But damn I am scared of giving up my dreams by making a complacent safe decision, a decision that life has made for me. Hopefully this shows you guys where I'm coming from.

To paraphrase Yoda, there is no wrong, only open mind.  I fully get where you're coming from and would never tell you you're wrong.  If that's your strategy, stick with it, just know there's no right answer, only the answer that's right FOR YOU.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #163 on: March 04, 2020, 12:57:24 PM »
I'm sorry, but maybe I missed it.  What exactly are the dreams that are killed off by having kids?  Granted my dreams of driving a Lambo and fucking hot waitresses, in between my backpacking stints across Europe while creating a billion dollar company might be dead......but the love and dreams gained by having kids and a family kind of even that out.  Plus the latter might be a tad easire to actually achieve.

So what dreams are actually killed by marrying and having kids?
I guess it depends on the person and the dreams in question. Maybe for people who never want to move away who have small dreams, it's not a problem. For me, I would like to work at a big tech company like Google, which necessitates first self-educating in computer science while working, then moving across the country from where I'm currently at to an expensive city where I'd like to (i) invest plenty of quality time into the work (50-60 hr/wk), (ii) have plenty of time to continue my education on the side (10-20 hr/wk), and (iii) live with roommates to drive COL down. Time and money are finite, and family puts a strain on both. If I had a family, it is likely that something in that equation would not work.

There are all sorts of ways a family would get in the way of achieving one's dream. For others, it could involve become a doctor, lawyer, banker, or actor. I looked into law as a possible career path at one point, and I know Big Law folks pour 80-100 hr/wk into their jobs. Can you justify that if you've got a family? Can you morally justify being away from your family for that long? And what if your spouse doesn't want to move to NYC? Or what if you could have afforded it if you were single, because you could put up with a crappy apartment for a few years, but now that you have kids, you've got to live in the suburbs and commute two hours to work every day?  Or consider medicine, which is almost 10 years of incessantly being away from home at the hospital for med school and residency, plus moving from state to state until you land somewhere?

No family = you call 100% of the shots. You can unanimously decide what sacrifices you're going to make to get where you want to go. With a spouse, you've got to compromise with their job and their interests. With children, you've got a moral responsibility to be there for them and provide them a certain kind of lifestyle. You cannot fly if you have roots. I do think family can be a dream-killer.

Sorry, I'll get off my soap box. I just feel a need to respond when challenged.

EDIT: Orbert, it's helpful to see where you're coming from. I am glad things have turned out pretty well for you. I am sorry, but something in me just cannot accept what you say here:
"Don't give up on your dreams" sounds really good, until you realize that for most of us, they are exactly that: dreams.  At some point, I realized that I was never going to be a rock star, or professional musician of any type.  I probably could have worked my ass off, studied, practiced, studied, practiced, studied, and practiced some more, and maybe had some success.  Or I could have done all that for years, and still end up like 99.9% of aspiring professional musicians, which is not being a professional musician.  It made a hell of a lot more sense to do something else.  Did I give up on my dreams?  I guess you could say that.  I prefer to see it as waking up.
I think it's our fundamental point of disagreement.

First, it might be more helpful to call them "goals" than "dreams", for reasons related to Orbert's post.  But second, you're talking CHOICES.    Ask President Obama if "family got in the way".  Jack Welch.  Sammy Hagar.  Mike Portnoy. 

Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #164 on: March 04, 2020, 01:25:47 PM »
Praying for you, pal.   :tup

Is one allowed to pray that I get to bang hot babes in a Lambo?
Thank you, your support is appreciated.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #165 on: March 04, 2020, 05:20:28 PM »
Praying for you, pal.   :tup

Is one allowed to pray that I get to bang hot babes in a Lambo?
Thank you, your support is appreciated.

If Hef had this power I would have laid both hands on him and prayed to the all mighty.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #166 on: March 05, 2020, 07:31:35 AM »
Praying for you, pal.   :tup

Is one allowed to pray that I get to bang hot babes in a Lambo?
Thank you, your support is appreciated.
I got you fam
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #167 on: March 05, 2020, 08:45:51 AM »
It looks like this is turning into a good ol' fashioned religious revival!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 01:57:39 PM by Northern Lion »
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #168 on: March 05, 2020, 09:28:43 AM »
It looks like this is turning into a good ol' fashioned religious revival.  Let's erect a tent, grab some oil and start laying hands on everyone!

You want to......Erect.....grab oil.....lay hands.....

I’m out.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline bosk1

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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #170 on: March 05, 2020, 01:58:37 PM »
It looks like this is turning into a good ol' fashioned religious revival.  Let's erect a tent, grab some oil and start laying hands on everyone!

You want to......Erect.....grab oil.....lay hands.....

I’m out.
Yeah... I decided to just take that part out of my post and pretend it never happened.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #171 on: March 05, 2020, 02:08:12 PM »
I agree wholeheartedly with everything in both of Eric's posts.
I haven't been able to accurately process anything in this thread since reading this.

It just proves you can be married and have kids and still reach your loftiest of goals.

Married with kids - check.
Bosk1’s approval - check.
Banging hot waitresses in my Lambo - temporarily on hold.

Most of my lofty goals have already been achieved.

Not married - check
No future ex-wife - check
No kids - check
No alimony or child support payments - check
Unborn kids contributing to early retirement fund - check and ongoing
They're good kids - check

:neverusethis:
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Offline H2

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #172 on: March 05, 2020, 08:56:03 PM »
Most of my lofty goals have already been achieved.

Not married - check
No future ex-wife - check
No kids - check
No alimony or child support payments - check
Unborn kids contributing to early retirement fund - check and ongoing
They're good kids - check

:neverusethis:
:lol

Offline cramx3

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #173 on: March 06, 2020, 09:34:42 AM »
Most of my lofty goals have already been achieved.

Not married - check
No future ex-wife - check
No kids - check
No alimony or child support payments - check
Unborn kids contributing to early retirement fund - check and ongoing
They're good kids - check

:neverusethis:
:lol

 :lol I've got all those check marks as well although 10 years ago I expected to be married with kids, so back to that point about dreams and adapting them over time...  I feel I once not only wanted but expected to build a family.  At 35, I feel pretty happy actually that I haven't settled down because I am living more freely now than I ever had before and honestly, I have a lot of fun with that freedom.  Eventually I think my dreams will need to adapt again and eventually I will settle down, but I kind of don't have that goal at all anymore.  If it happens, it happens, but no point in forcing that and therefore making it some sort of achievement. 

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Men are from Mars, Women I have no f*$%ing idea
« Reply #174 on: March 06, 2020, 10:02:33 AM »
I'll be 54 in May so I've past the point of no return.  My gf just turned 55 and she has 2 grown kids with families of their own.  I haven't completely ruled out marriage, but at this point I'm so set in my ways that it is highly unlikely.
"Two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein
"There's not a pill you can take.  There's not a class you can go to.  Stupid is foreva."  -Ron White