Author Topic: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...  (Read 3828 times)

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Online TAC

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College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« on: February 17, 2020, 09:15:00 AM »
So this is something I've been thinking about for a while now, especially after hearing things like "cancelling student debt". I read this article this morning and it convinced me to finally make this thread.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/personalfinance/dealerships-give-car-buyers-some-advice-just-stop-paying-your-loan/ar-BB102JDd?li=BBnbfcL

I'm not planning on really discussing the article, but more about discussing taking out auto loans that you cannot afford. I recently saw an ad where a dealership was giving out 7 or 8 year loans.  WTF??

But I also want to address the Student Debt issue as well.

To me, these are self inflicted wounds. If you graduate with 200k in student loans, isn't that your problem?

I'm sensitive to people who have lost their job unexpectedly or suffer an unforeseen illness, but don't people have some kind of control over their debt?

Again, I'm not disparaging anyone who runs up credit card debt while they are on hard times.

But honestly, when I hear people bitch about their student loans or auto loans, I don't have a ton of sympathy. It comes down to good choices. We have a family we are friends with and they are sending their daughter to an expensive college, for a degree that will likely take at least a decade and a half to pay off.



What are the answers, especially with student debt. Do we limit loan amounts based on income? Or potential income? Do we allow kids and family's to take out ridiculous loans? Where's the personal responsibility? Where's the legal responsibility? Is student lending predatory?


My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Online El Barto

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2020, 09:32:47 AM »
So this is something I've been thinking about for a while now, especially after hearing things like "cancelling student debt". I read this article this morning and it convinced me to finally make this thread.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/personalfinance/dealerships-give-car-buyers-some-advice-just-stop-paying-your-loan/ar-BB102JDd?li=BBnbfcL

I'm not planning on really discussing the article, but more about discussing taking out auto loans that you cannot afford. I recently saw an ad where a dealership was giving out 7 or 8 year loans.  WTF??

But I also want to address the Student Debt issue as well.

To me, these are self inflicted wounds. If you graduate with 200k in student loans, isn't that your problem?

I'm sensitive to people who have lost their job unexpectedly or suffer an unforeseen illness, but don't people have some kind of control over their debt?

Again, I'm not disparaging anyone who runs up credit card debt while they are on hard times.

But honestly, when I hear people bitch about their student loans or auto loans, I don't have a ton of sympathy. It comes down to good choices. We have a family we are friends with and they are sending their daughter to an expensive college, for a degree that will likely take at least a decade and a half to pay off.



What are the answers, especially with student debt. Do we limit loan amounts based on income? Or potential income? Do we allow kids and family's to take out ridiculous loans? Where's the personal responsibility? Where's the legal responsibility? Is student lending predatory?


My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Most lending is predatory by nature. Remember when you got your first credit card? I'll bet it wasn't the day after your 18th birthday. You had to establish some sort of credit, and you couldn't expect more than a pittance as your credit limit. I was 21 (Member Since 1991). Now they give cards away like they were nothing because it's far better to stick people with a cycle of debt and live off of the interest than own only responsible customers who pay their bills regularly. If you're Citibank who do you want as a customer, yourself or some 18 year old girl heading off to college for the first time? The truth is that some people are more responsible than others, and some people have a better grasp of economics than others. When you specifically look for the irresponsible dipshits because they'll make you more money, you're a predator.

Sticking with you, weren't you conditioned to the fact that if you didn't go to college you'd be a failure? Of course that's wrong, but wasn't it a recurring theme during your youth? Don't know if it's still the case, probably less so, but I suspect it's still commonplace. Also, keep in mind that college was cheap when we were out of highschool. Tuition has skyrocketed well past the standard rate of inflation.

Myself, I'm not interested in writing off student debt. There is some element of personal responsibility at play here, but mostly I just think it'd be unfair to the people who are paying or have already paid theirs off. I am interested in working out some kind of deal where college debt isn't crippling people and moving towards a system where advanced education becomes more affordable, though. And frankly, the lenders should be on the hook for a big chunk of it. If you make stupid and/or predatory loans you should be on the hook for it. That also falls under the umbrella of personal responsibility.
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2020, 09:42:21 AM »
I have a decent amount of student debt. Not nearly as much as many, and way more than others. It was all my choice. 100%.

But taking out the debt isn't really the problem, it's just how expensive education has become. I was fortunate enough to have been able to pay for my BA and both my MA's out of pocket. But my Doctorate cost me almost 200,000 dollars.

Is it a choice? Sure! But that's not a justification for the insane costs of education.

So the issue isn't necessarily the loans, it's how expensive education has become.

And yes, for some undergrad, there are ways to spend less. But those options are not as plentiful as people think. And scholarships/grants don't exist for most students. So a select few can get a good price or even a free ride, but most people have to pay full price.

And grad school has even less options for cutting cost unless you're in a field that pays you to go to school, many of which are not. So we can either become a country where only the rich and privileged are afforded education, creating an even more giant social class gap, or we can make it more affordable for ordinary people to get education beyond a trade school. We have plenty of kids doing trade schools or not going to college. Most Americans don't have a four year degree, so it's not like we're over saturating the education system. Less than 10% have a Masters, and I think something like 2-4% have a doctorate.

So again, it's already super selective. Making it damn near impossible for the non-wealthy to get educated is a very very bad idea.
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2020, 09:45:10 AM »
Sticking with you, weren't you conditioned to the fact that if you didn't go to college you'd be a failure? Of course that's wrong, but wasn't it a recurring theme during your youth? Don't know if it's still the case, probably less so, but I suspect it's still commonplace. Also, keep in mind that college was cheap when we were out of highschool. Tuition has skyrocketed well past the standard rate of inflation.

My father was adamant I went to a 4 year school.

We've seen the full range of college prices just on our tours so far. So we do know that (some) college is quite affordable.



Myself, I'm not interested in writing off student debt. There is some element of personal responsibility at play here, but mostly I just think it'd be unfair to the people who are paying or have already paid theirs off. I am interested in working out some kind of deal where college debt isn't crippling people and moving towards a system where advanced education becomes more affordable, though. And frankly, the lenders should be on the hook for a big chunk of it. If you make stupid and/or predatory loans you should be on the hook for it. That also falls under the umbrella of personal responsibility.

See, this is where I am. I'm on board with all of this. But I have a feeling that if there's a cap on how much can be borrowed, colleges will truly squeeze out these folks during their admission process, if they're not already.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2020, 09:46:24 AM »
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principal. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 09:53:44 AM by Chino »

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2020, 09:47:09 AM »
I have a decent amount of student debt. Not nearly as much as many, and way more than others. It was all my choice. 100%.

But taking out the debt isn't really the problem, it's just how expensive education has become. I was fortunate enough to have been able to pay for my BA and both my MA's out of pocket. But my Doctorate cost me almost 200,000 dollars.

Is it a choice? Sure! But that's not a justification for the insane costs of education.

So the issue isn't necessarily the loans, it's how expensive education has become.

And yes, for some undergrad, there are ways to spend less. But those options are not as plentiful as people think. And scholarships/grants don't exist for most students. So a select few can get a good price or even a free ride, but most people have to pay full price.

And grad school has even less options for cutting cost unless you're in a field that pays you to go to school, many of which are not. So we can either become a country where only the rich and privileged are afforded education, creating an even more giant social class gap, or we can make it more affordable for ordinary people to get education beyond a trade school. We have plenty of kids doing trade schools or not going to college. Most Americans don't have a four year degree, so it's not like we're over saturating the education system. Less than 10% have a Masters, and I think something like 2-4% have a doctorate.

So again, it's already super selective. Making it damn near impossible for the non-wealthy to get educated is a very very bad idea.


I agree. But as long as we can loan out to students, we can charge a ton. Seems a system change is in order. Which is why I placed this here in stead of GMD.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2020, 09:50:05 AM »
I'm actually with you 100% on this.   The discussion for me - especially about debt in general - really does border on "entitlement".   I know for me, I live in a very tough economic environment.  Blue state, with a former governor with national aspirations (we're deeply in a deficit, yet his last "State of the State" speech was almost entirely about identity politics, and the notion of "Connecticut Fair", which seemed to me to translate into "do what you want, and we'll pay for it!").  I travel to other parts of the country, and sometimes I go back to my hotel and weep at how much I pay for basic living expenses here in the northeast (I'm kidding.  Maybe.) 

I just had two kids go through the admissions process for post-high school education.   One opted for a trade - aesthetician/cosmetologist - and one opted for college - where she's a current freshman.   I know for me, it was about homework.  Doing the due diligence, and following through on the tens of scholarship and grant options that are out there.   The first student we will largely avoid any debt on.   There was some but it will be paid soon, and we're helping her with that (she couldn't do it on her own, but that's a function of her douchebag husband more than anything else, also her choice).   I might have a modicum of debt when the second is done, depending on how I play it.   No one is saying it's easy, or that it doesn't take effort.  It takes research, it takes phone calls, it takes getting involved, it takes reaching out to people who know more than you, and it takes hard conversations.   But it CAN be done, and I'm not sure why the entire country - well, we all know it's the "1% who has to pay their fair share" - has to bear  that burden.   

I have zero appetite for relieving consumer debt - our fetish, our mania for "shiny things" is ridiculous in the extreme - but even if we were to discuss relieving student debt burdens, I would at a minimum limit it to the best reasonable deal.  Let me explain:  I have a student with a x.xx GPA and a y,yyy SAT score, and that would put them in a tier.   For that tier, and a general BA or BS degree, given income brackets and what not, it could be assumed that through a combination of state schools, community colleges (if need be), etc. you would be burdened with a minimum of, say, $z,000 in tuition costs.   If you opt to go to the foo-foo boutique college - Elan is one, Salve Regina another, I'm sure there are 100's more across this great land - that's on you.  ANY relief that might be granted would be limited to $z,000, and the difference between that and your precious kid's status symbol would be on you.


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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2020, 09:50:14 AM »
My ex-GF/GF

Your ex girlfriend/girlfriend??

Don't derail the thread. :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Online Adami

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2020, 09:53:38 AM »
Oh I'd be totally good with that.

I think education and places like college or university play a very important role outside of being a job factory.

There are millions of kids out there who are going to be plumbers, or electricians, or car mechanics or what have you and can go to trade schools and already do.

There are tons of kids out there who are going to go into extremely profitable fields that will give them a ton of money but require higher education. So that's not the biggest issue.

However, there are also tons of kids who will become artists, writers, scholars, professors, psychologists (sup), scientists in non-profitable fields, etc that need college or university to 1) achieve those goals, and 2) Figure out what/who they want to be. We can't expect all 18 year olds to pick a life course and stick to it forever. If I were forced to do that, I'd be an audio engineer somewhere, miserable. But instead I used college to figure out who I am, and now love what I do, even if it doesn't pay a ton.

If we look at education only as a means of producing jobs to produce profit, then we're failing as a society. In my opinion. We're never going to run out of people who do that, but we also need the other folks. We need writers, and thinkers, and artists, and so forth to function as a healthy society/culture/civilization. And right now we're trying to cut a lot of that out and make it all about profit and production for profit.

But the cost is also not helping us. Right now, millionaires can easily send their kids to the best schools. They will, in turn, become the most powerful people in their fields by mere virtue of coming from money. While people who can't afford that never get the chance. It's not a system that can maintain. It will collapse.
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2020, 09:57:09 AM »

I have zero appetite for relieving consumer debt - our fetish, our mania for "shiny things" is ridiculous in the extreme - but even if we were to discuss relieving student debt burdens, I would at a minimum limit it to the best reasonable deal.  Let me explain:  I have a student with a x.xx GPA and a y,yyy SAT score, and that would put them in a tier.   For that tier, and a general BA or BS degree, given income brackets and what not, it could be assumed that through a combination of state schools, community colleges (if need be), etc. you would be burdened with a minimum of, say, $z,000 in tuition costs.   If you opt to go to the foo-foo boutique college - Elan is one, Salve Regina another, I'm sure there are 100's more across this great land - that's on you.  ANY relief that might be granted would be limited to $z,000, and the difference between that and your precious kid's status symbol would be on you.
This is along the lines of what I'd like, but there needs to be some retroactive relief involved. What you're suggesting would have forward effects, as it would change the decision making process. Yet when you've got people saddled with hundreds of grand in debt and no real means of paying it off, "you made your bed, now sleep in it" doesn't really help anybody. There should certainly be some of that, but keeping them in chains is counterproductive.
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2020, 09:58:37 AM »
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"

I can quibble with some of the things said here - at least undergrad, I think the options are FAR greater than people think, and I think that there ARE affordable options to get a four-year degree out there.  They just take work, research, homework and diligence to get.   But generally, we're not talking JUST about "devil corporations looking to fuck people over!".  Federal ParentPLUS loans are reasonable and affordable.  Basic math, basic economics, ought to be a part of a curriculum to get a high school degree.  Our society is more complicated, if we think that important, it ought to be part of what every kid learns.   

For me, the answer isn't the one that REDUCES personal responsibility, it's the one that makes it possible to take more informed personal responsibility.  Why does that seem to be such an anathema to some people?   I totally get it; if you get hit by a bus, or some other life-event changes the game transformationally, we can deal with that separately.  But just because you had an insatiable dream to be a Yalie or a Fighting Irish, doesn't entitle you to victim status down the road. 

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2020, 09:59:12 AM »
My ex-GF/GF

Your ex girlfriend/girlfriend??

Don't derail the thread. :lol

I caught that too, and went and got a box of popcorn.  :)

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2020, 10:00:12 AM »
My ex-GF/GF

Your ex girlfriend/girlfriend??

Don't derail the thread. :lol

I caught that too, and went and got a box of popcorn.  :)

My money's on twins.
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2020, 10:03:06 AM »
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"

I can quibble with some of the things said here - at least undergrad, I think the options are FAR greater than people think, and I think that there ARE affordable options to get a four-year degree out there.  They just take work, research, homework and diligence to get.   But generally, we're not talking JUST about "devil corporations looking to fuck people over!".  Federal ParentPLUS loans are reasonable and affordable.  Basic math, basic economics, ought to be a part of a curriculum to get a high school degree.  Our society is more complicated, if we think that important, it ought to be part of what every kid learns.   

For me, the answer isn't the one that REDUCES personal responsibility, it's the one that makes it possible to take more informed personal responsibility.  Why does that seem to be such an anathema to some people?   I totally get it; if you get hit by a bus, or some other life-event changes the game transformationally, we can deal with that separately.  But just because you had an insatiable dream to be a Yalie or a Fighting Irish, doesn't entitle you to victim status down the road.

Yes, "If you just did XYZ, you'd be fine!" makes sense, but like Bart says, it's not really helping anyone. Just telling everyone who didn't do the perfect thing to piss off.

We could easily say to all addicts "well, next time don't do drugs!" and tell them to piss off. I could tell all of my clients to just make better decisions, no therapy for them! But again....why?

Maybe it's the socialist in me disagreeing with the capitalist in you, but I have a strong desire to make life better for as many other people as possible, as opposed to strictly enforcing personal responsibility at the detriment of their well-being (within reason).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 10:15:38 AM by Adami »
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2020, 10:09:56 AM »
I regret my college choices. I bought into the crap about going to college right after high school even if you don't know what you want... I'd say a good 20% of my English courses the last year of high school were replaced with college lecturers coming in speaking about how great (and expensive) their school is, urging us to go there and look for as many loans as we could (because it is expensive). By the time I finished my associate's degree I had used up my scholarships, burnt out on my passion (what I supposedly thought I wanted to do for a career), and had no idea what I wanted to do with my life, I was more confused than ever. I have other friends who went to 4 year universities and are saddled with debt; some enjoy their jobs, some still haven't found jobs, some dropped out, some think their temporal and monetary investment was worth it, others don't, some didn't go to college at all and now have a big house and are making bank in trades...

I wish secondary education was more affordable, and I wish everybody would stop pushing it on everybody. Not everyone needs to go to college. I wish it was more affordable and easier for someone like me to go back because I desperately want to do something with computers and programming or networking, things I could be good at. I am simply not good with my hands and tools and doing manual labor - my brain is not wired for it, and I've tried very hard to do those things. I have no doubt that if I had affordable education and/or training in those things that I could be a very good worker in those fields.

I wish it was like my college professors' old days. They always talked about being able to work a standard job over the summer and be able to pay for a whole year of college with that money. I couldn't even do that with my community college these days.
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2020, 10:13:55 AM »
Oh I'd be totally good with that.

I think education and places like college or university play a very important role outside of being a job factory.

There are millions of kids out there who are going to be plumbers, or electricians, or car mechanics or what have you and can go to trade schools and already do.

There are tons of kids out there who are going to go into extremely profitable fields that will give them a ton of money but require higher education. So that's not the biggest issue.

However, there are also tons of kids who will become artists, writers, scholars, professors, psychologists (sup), scientists in non-profitable fields, etc that need college or university to 1) achieve those goals, and 2) Figure out what/who they want to be. We can't expect all 18 year olds to pick a life course and stick to it forever. If I were forced to do that, I'd be an audio engineer somewhere, miserable. But instead I used college to figure out who I am, and now love what I do, even if it doesn't pay a ton.

If we look at education only as a means of producing jobs to produce profit, then we're failing as a society. In my opinion. We're never going to run out of people who do that, but we also need the other folks. We need writers, and thinkers, and artists, and so forth to function as a healthy society/culture/civilization. And right now we're trying to cut a lot of that out and make it all about profit and production for profit.

I love all of this.  My wife - love her madly, but...  - doesn't have a college degree, and neither does anyone in her immediate family (not counting trade schools).   She has bought into the "it's for rich kids and not necessary" idea.  I've personally got more degrees than everyone in my immediate family combined (brothers, parents, kids), but I also make a multiple of everyone in my immediate family combined.   And we argued about this, but my thought was (for the aethetician) to go to a school for a year.   Live in a dorm with people that don't live in your town, county, state.  Stay up late, sit in the hall and talk the meaning of life until 4 am.  Go to class hungover and see what happens.  Meet people, see what the world has to offer.   I got shot down on that - she got married instead and hates her life and what it's become - but I maintain that college is more than "learning to be a corporate douchebag".   I grew up more in that five years (switched majors; finished the entire engineering curriculum in three years) than in the entire rest of my life combined. 

But then you write:

Quote
But the cost is also not helping us. Right now, millionaires can easily send their kids to the best schools. They will, in turn, become the most powerful people in their fields by mere virtue of coming from money. While people who can't afford that never get the chance. It's not a system that can maintain. It will collapse.

I don't disagree that it's TRENDING to a point where it can't be maintained and will collapse, but we're not there yet.   There are 100 colleges/universities within reasonable driving distance to me here in Connecticut that are eminently affordable, and many of them actually assess tuition on a sliding scale based on need.   Now, we can quibble about that scale and how it applies, but it's there.   My kid's first choice was an Ivy League school, and while I probably wouldn't have gotten the break that some would, they were CRYSTAL CLEAR in their entry pitch:  money will NOT be the reason a qualified student will not get a degree from this university.  They did the FAFSA bullshit, found out what you were eligible for in terms of student loans, and they pretty much RELIEVED that from the tuition.   Granted, other schools, one famous Jesuit school in the northeast, was less forgiving.   But the options are out there. 

This goes back to other things, though.   For many, high schools are turning into a joke (a cousin of my wife's graduated from high school about five years ago; HE CANNOT READ) and not preparing many of our kids for the next step.   I know TAC wrote a couple months ago about how our kids are better and brighter than we give them credit for - one of the best posts I've ever read here on DTF, by the way - and that's true, but I also think the divide is getting greater as well.   In my high school - grad. class of 285 - there were maybe 25 kids that were going wherever they wanted, and another 15 or 20 kids that would be lucky to be ditchdiggers, with everyone else somewhere in between.  I don't think those numbers hold today.  I think that "middle group" is a lot smaller, and that bottom group is a lot bigger.    That's not a tuition problem, that's not a college problem.  That's something else entirely. 

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2020, 10:18:55 AM »
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"

I can quibble with some of the things said here - at least undergrad, I think the options are FAR greater than people think, and I think that there ARE affordable options to get a four-year degree out there.  They just take work, research, homework and diligence to get.   But generally, we're not talking JUST about "devil corporations looking to fuck people over!".  Federal ParentPLUS loans are reasonable and affordable.  Basic math, basic economics, ought to be a part of a curriculum to get a high school degree.  Our society is more complicated, if we think that important, it ought to be part of what every kid learns.   

For me, the answer isn't the one that REDUCES personal responsibility, it's the one that makes it possible to take more informed personal responsibility.  Why does that seem to be such an anathema to some people?   I totally get it; if you get hit by a bus, or some other life-event changes the game transformationally, we can deal with that separately.  But just because you had an insatiable dream to be a Yalie or a Fighting Irish, doesn't entitle you to victim status down the road.

Yes, "If you just did XYZ, you'd be fine!" makes sense, but like Bart says, it's not really helping anyone. Just telling everyone who didn't do the perfect thing to piss off.

We could easily say to all addicts "well, next time don't do drugs!" and tell them to piss off. I could tell all of my clients to just make better decisions, no therapy for them! But again....why?

That's not at all what I'm saying.   Not even close.   If you want to use a drug analogy, I'm more saying "don't implement a war on drugs; that's just closing the barn door after the horse has left".   I'm not expecting "perfect", but I am expecting hat we not just expect "perfect" to fall in our lap from the great savior "government".  Do SOMETHING about mitigating your exposure.   We're not even TALKING about the other variables; find me one debate, one speech, one appearance by ANY Democratic candidate (I say Democratic, because they are the party largely pushing the "free tuition" idea) that addresses ANY of the other issues we've mentioned here besides "tuition relief".   They're not talking about the cost of education except as a reason to push "tuition relief".  They're not talking about beefing up the state school systems across the country.  They're not talking about revamping high school curricula to make it possible to make better - read: more informed - decisions.   

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2020, 10:19:37 AM »
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"
The same reason the answer is always "you made your decisions, now live with them." It's a simple way to dump blame in a complex situation.
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2020, 10:23:36 AM »
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"
The same reason the answer is always "you made your decisions, now live with them." It's a simple way to dump blame in a complex situation.

I suppose; the two sides aren't equal though. It's not like a football game with two teams of relatively equal strength.   

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2020, 10:32:05 AM »
find me one debate, one speech, one appearance by ANY Democratic candidate (I say Democratic, because they are the party largely pushing the "free tuition" idea) that addresses ANY of the other issues we've mentioned here besides "tuition relief".   They're not talking about the cost of education except as a reason to push "tuition relief".  They're not talking about beefing up the state school systems across the country.  They're not talking about revamping high school curricula to make it possible to make better - read: more informed - decisions.   

Pete Buttigieg’s Position on Student Loan Debt

Pete’s plan can be broken down into two categories: helping incoming students graduate without debt and helping people with existing debt qualify for forgiveness.
What is Buttigieg’s Stance on Student Debt?

Buttigieg seems passionate about helping low-income families graduate from college without going into debt, because he believes a college education can help lift people out of poverty.

If elected, he plans to create a partnership between the federal and state governments to make public higher education more affordable for everyone. What’s more, under his plan, tuition at public institutions will be free for low- and middle-income families.

Buttigieg’s plan will further contribute $25 billion to Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) and Minority-Serving institutions (MSIs) to make it more feasible for minority students to earn their degrees. A number of HBCUs and MSIs are private institutions, so minority students would have the option to attend a private university at a low cost, if not for free.

He also wants to increase the amount of money available for Pell Grants, which are federal gift aid for undergraduate students in financial need. These grants can be used not just to cover tuition, but also for expenses like textbooks and room and board.

Buttigieg believes Pell Grant awards should keep up with inflation. In recent years, the amount available for Pell Grants has increased annually, but it hasn’t always kept up with the rate of inflation.

Now let’s look at debt cancelation and forgiveness. If elected, Buttigieg plans to cancel student debt for borrowers who were targets of “low-quality, overwhelmingly for-profit programs”—specifically, colleges that failed to meet the Gainful Employment Rule standards.

Such schools may have charged graduates too much for tuition relative to how much money they can reasonably make in their profession, or they failed to adequately prepare students for the career field. In this case, Buttigieg believes that canceling student debt is the right thing to do.

He also has a plan to get more graduates enrolled in the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program, which is currently notorious for rejecting applicants . He plans to create more positions for AmeriCorps and the Peace Corps, as well as create new jobs in other public service fields.

Buttigieg has a plan to get a total of 250,000 people involved in public service in the near future, with a goal of 1 million by 2026. These participants may be eligible to enroll in PSLF.



He's attacking it from both fronts, and is not talking about erasing all student debt.
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2020, 10:42:35 AM »
I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income.

I see the opposite, I see articles about how millenials don't have money and yet are living like they do.  Vacations they can't afford, car leases that are outrageous, all to maintain a social media lifestyle to impress others while having crippling credit card debt. 

That's not to say you are wrong or anything, there's definitely plenty of people who are responsible about their debt and still can't get out of it.

I just think it comes down to people not being educated and falling victim to loans and lifestyles that aren't good decisions.

My parents are not good with debt.  My father has terrible credit and I'm glad I learned not to take my dad's lessons on money and credit cards.  Not everyone is going to reject their parent's advice though.  Having a class in high school about "paying for your life" would be very beneficial to teach people about interest rates and loans.  How credit scores work, is college worth it? Mortgages, car loans... things everyone will need to experience in life and yet no one ever teaches you how to deal with these to make the best financial decisions on your first attempt.

Anyway, about car loans.  I was thinking about how sleezy car salesman can be.  When I bought my car last year, after agreeing on a price.  It then came down to the discussion of how to pay for it.  So you talk to the finance guy (I wanted to buy, not lease) and he asks how much do you want to pay a month.  I say no more than $300 and I don't want it more than 5 years.  He comes back and has me at $300 for 4 years after agreeing on the downpayment.  As we go through the details.... turns out he added a bunch of warranties and extras to make it 300 without telling me until I asked further about the break down.  He took my number and shoved extras in to make it look like it was a good deal for me, but it wasn't what I wanted.  Removed all the extras and agreed to $250 a month for 4 years (where I actually pay 300 anyway because that's what I was always comfortable with paying).

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2020, 10:46:24 AM »
@Stads...too many long quotes, so I'm not quoting them.

We don't all live where you do. The rest of the country doesn't have your life, and your life can't be used as an objective standard against which to judge the decisions of others.

And I didn't mention the government in my stuff. At least i don't think I did. If you have arguments against other people..cool....but if you're replying to me, just reply to my arguments. It makes talking to you impossible when I'm speaking to you, and you're speaking to millions of other people instead of me. JUST LOVE ME DAMMIT!

I think the education system is in trouble. I'm not asking the government to just go in and magically fix everything. But, and I work with college students every day, we really are moving toward education just being a job factory. If the country becomes almost entirely based on profit generation, we're not going to last. We need to change how higher education is viewed. That's not a government thing. It's a society thing.
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2020, 10:48:53 AM »
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"


Is it knee-jerk at this point though? I mean, I now regularly socialize with people who have been out of college for nearly a decade now and still have more than half of their loans to go.   I'm not suggesting "blame someone else". Put all of the blame on the students. I don't care. The fact of the matter is, this is spelling disaster for an entire generation regardless of who we can't agree on is at fault.   

Quote
I can quibble with some of the things said here - at least undergrad, I think the options are FAR greater than people think, and I think that there ARE affordable options to get a four-year degree out there.  They just take work, research, homework and diligence to get.  But generally, we're not talking JUST about "devil corporations looking to fuck people over!".  Federal ParentPLUS loans are reasonable and affordable.  Basic math, basic economics, ought to be a part of a curriculum to get a high school degree.  Our society is more complicated, if we think that important, it ought to be part of what every kid learns.   

No disagreement there, and I think a lot of students today are taking these things into account, which is a great thing. When I was looking at schools though, that certainly wasn't the mindset. Like at all. And that comes from our upbringing and the school environment. Kids don't know what they don't know, and if the entire generation above them was pushing them to pursue higher education in the way we did, can you really blame us? Even today, I trust my fathers advice more than just about anyone else's regardless of topic, and I'm sure terrible advice out there from other dads lead to these kinds of loans.

Quote
For me, the answer isn't the one that REDUCES personal responsibility, it's the one that makes it possible to take more informed personal responsibility.  Why does that seem to be such an anathema to some people?   I totally get it; if you get hit by a bus, or some other life-event changes the game transformationally, we can deal with that separately.  But just because you had an insatiable dream to be a Yalie or a Fighting Irish, doesn't entitle you to victim status down the road.

I don't see how blowing away the interest would reduce one's personal responsibility. They still have a hefty loan to pay back. And not for nothing, everyone I know who's still in serious debt from school didn't go to Yale. Hell, they didn't even go to UCONN. You can still come out of state schools over your head in debt, especially if the job market isn't what you thought it'd be.

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2020, 06:59:50 PM »
@Stads...too many long quotes, so I'm not quoting them.

We don't all live where you do. The rest of the country doesn't have your life, and your life can't be used as an objective standard against which to judge the decisions of others.

And I didn't mention the government in my stuff. At least i don't think I did. If you have arguments against other people..cool....but if you're replying to me, just reply to my arguments. It makes talking to you impossible when I'm speaking to you, and you're speaking to millions of other people instead of me. JUST LOVE ME DAMMIT!

I think the education system is in trouble. I'm not asking the government to just go in and magically fix everything. But, and I work with college students every day, we really are moving toward education just being a job factory. If the country becomes almost entirely based on profit generation, we're not going to last. We need to change how higher education is viewed. That's not a government thing. It's a society thing.

I'm not sure "what my life" has to do with it.  I'm not of wealth, and in terms of immediate family, there's not a lot of entitlement here.  My dad is handicapped, so the pot of gold at the rainbow's end isn't there, and my brother's a cop who has worked himself into two divorces now. My stepson is spending a year in Afghanistan, in part to afford a better shot for his kid than he got from his dad.  No victim here, no crying the blues; I am blessed in many ways that I would not trade for a trust fund.  I only mentioned what I did to be fair and to be upfront, and to counter this notion that college is a waste of time and never pays off.  If anything, I'm at a DISADVANTAGE, not an advantage.   I pay more than many do - my choice, in terms of where I live, and I accept that - and yet few of these programs will benefit me or those around me.

It's hard for me to just direct at the one comment because for me none of these issues are limited to one variable.  In fact, that's - in my opinion - precisely why we have many of the problems we do because we (collective) seem to want to insist on solving them with quippy, soundbite solutions that lend themselves to laws that have quippy soundbite names.   I'm all in favor of minimizing the for-profit focus of institutions.  I'm a big fan of the state school systems (my alma mater is now considered a "public Ivy" because of the investments made there and some of the advancements in the student body.  Tuition-wise it's still reasonable, and serves as a safety school for many kids in my state).   

And of course, it goes without saying I love you.  :)  :-*

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2020, 07:13:05 PM »

Is it knee-jerk at this point though? I mean, I now regularly socialize with people who have been out of college for nearly a decade now and still have more than half of their loans to go.   I'm not suggesting "blame someone else". Put all of the blame on the students. I don't care. The fact of the matter is, this is spelling disaster for an entire generation regardless of who we can't agree on is at fault. 

Well, I think what I mean here is that it seems to be turning into one of those political footballs that obscure the real solution, and we get instead "Obamacare" or any of 100 environmental laws which sound great, but don't actually solve the problem, or, more importantly, stop it from continuing to happen.   

I really just find it ironic that we're dealing with a question of "education", and in part blaming it on a lack of "education", and not focusing primarily on strengthening that "education".   Understanding how loans works is not complicated algebra.  It's basic multiplication for the most part.  I guess there's an exponent in there, but we can handle that, I think.

Quote
No disagreement there, and I think a lot of students today are taking these things into account, which is a great thing. When I was looking at schools though, that certainly wasn't the mindset. Like at all. And that comes from our upbringing and the school environment. Kids don't know what they don't know, and if the entire generation above them was pushing them to pursue higher education in the way we did, can you really blame us? Even today, I trust my fathers advice more than just about anyone else's regardless of topic, and I'm sure terrible advice out there from other dads lead to these kinds of loans.

I just thought of that commercial: "Dad, should I consolidate my credit cards into one loan?"  "Dear, a wise man once said, 'The richest camel has the biggest hump!'".    :)   

I don't disagree.   If we can solve that, again, without it being a lottery win for a bunch of people that just happened to be at the right place at the right time (i.e. this point in our political life) then I'm all for it.   I'm not saying anything nearly as one-note as "suck it up, butter cup".   I'm all for programs that alleviate financial burden.  I just don't support blanket entitlement programs, especially ones that don't do squat to prevent the problem from recurring.

 

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I don't see how blowing away the interest would reduce one's personal responsibility. They still have a hefty loan to pay back. And not for nothing, everyone I know who's still in serious debt from school didn't go to Yale. Hell, they didn't even go to UCONN. You can still come out of state schools over your head in debt, especially if the job market isn't what you thought it'd be.

Well, I'm nominally in favor of that, but it can't be reducing it to zero without some recompense.  Like it or not, lending is a business.  It doesn't have to be preditory, or usury in nature.   But if we go too far down this road of upending the financial basis for how some institutions make their money (and offset other, more risky loans that many of us need to get into homes or businesses) you will see a retraction in the economy, much like we did in 2008 when businesses puckered at the trifecta of radical healthcare changes, drastically increased environmental controls, and drastically increased regulation of Wall Street.   "Stock prices" are a measure, at base level, of "future earnings".  If we remove "interest" from the $1.5 trillion of student debt out there, there will be repurcussions.

Online Adami

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2020, 07:15:10 PM »
I said the thing about your life, not because I think you come from some privilege, but because you repeatedly point out anecdotes from your life as proof that you're correct. Your circumstances support your perspectives, but other people have lived other lives (nothing to do with privilege) which disqualify them from being so directly comparable to what you have done.


And for my 2nd point, I dunno. You find yourself often being told the exact same thing by people here and often feel you're being misunderstood. Part of that might be because you're replying to us, AND everyone on CNN, AND everyone on random comments sections AND everyone on FB and other people as well. It just makes the conversation so difficult to have because we have to keep either ignoring parts of what you say, or moving so far away from what we're trying to say to address your points that we all lose focus as to what we're even talking about.

So if I say X, and lots of other people not on DTF say X+Z+Y, doesn't mean you can bring up Y and Z to me. I never said those things and I don't want to defend those things.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2020, 07:26:03 PM »

And for my 2nd point, I dunno. You find yourself often being told the exact same thing by people here and often feel you're being misunderstood. Part of that might be because you're replying to us, AND everyone on CNN, AND everyone on random comments sections AND everyone on FB and other people as well. It just makes the conversation so difficult to have because we have to keep either ignoring parts of what you say, or moving so far away from what we're trying to say to address your points that we all lose focus as to what we're even talking about.

So if I say X, and lots of other people not on DTF say X+Z+Y, doesn't mean you can bring up Y and Z to me. I never said those things and I don't want to defend those things.

yes, very well said this is a big part of why he keeps running into trouble here and elsewhere.  Now I'll be the first admit that I've often been very uncharitable, unfair and downright dickish in my interpretations so of course it's a two way street and now I either don't respond at all or try to be mindful.

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2020, 07:29:46 PM »
I said the thing about your life, not because I think you come from some privilege, but because you repeatedly point out anecdotes from your life as proof that you're correct. Your circumstances support your perspectives, but other people have lived other lives (nothing to do with privilege) which disqualify them from being so directly comparable to what you have done.

I'm sorry if you take it that way.  It's meant not to say "I'm correct", but to counter the weight of the general perception.  It's an example of a reasonable alternative.   I am very well aware - in fact I wrote this in PM to a person here earlier this morning - that I am but one of 325 million stories.  I don't expect anyone to agree with me, or to do it my way, or any of that, and I'm sorry if that's the message received.   

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And for my 2nd point, I dunno. You find yourself often being told the exact same thing by people here and often feel you're being misunderstood. Part of that might be because you're replying to us, AND everyone on CNN, AND everyone on random comments sections AND everyone on FB and other people as well. It just makes the conversation so difficult to have because we have to keep either ignoring parts of what you say, or moving so far away from what we're trying to say to address your points that we all lose focus as to what we're even talking about.

So if I say X, and lots of other people not on DTF say X+Z+Y, doesn't mean you can bring up Y and Z to me. I never said those things and I don't want to defend those things.

Fair enough; I'll do my best.  It's at best a compromise though.  I write enough here that anyone really interested knows where I'm coming from more or less.  For me, it's all tied together. 

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2020, 07:34:16 PM »

And for my 2nd point, I dunno. You find yourself often being told the exact same thing by people here and often feel you're being misunderstood. Part of that might be because you're replying to us, AND everyone on CNN, AND everyone on random comments sections AND everyone on FB and other people as well. It just makes the conversation so difficult to have because we have to keep either ignoring parts of what you say, or moving so far away from what we're trying to say to address your points that we all lose focus as to what we're even talking about.

So if I say X, and lots of other people not on DTF say X+Z+Y, doesn't mean you can bring up Y and Z to me. I never said those things and I don't want to defend those things.

yes, very well said this is a big part of why he keeps running into trouble here and elsewhere.  Now I'll be the first admit that I've often been very uncharitable, unfair and downright dickish in my interpretations so of course it's a two way street and now I either don't respond at all or try to be mindful.

"he keeps running into trouble here and elsewhere"?  Really?   

Look, whether any one person "says that" or not isn't really the point.  We don't get to pick and choose our arguments, or the variables that impact our positions. I can't help that we're talking about an issue that is of tremendous magnitude ($1.5 trillion; by contrast the mortgage market is $10 trillion, and the entire GDP of the country is $20 trillion).  It's a big issue.   If you don't want to discuss certain aspects, I'm not sure why I'm the one that has to edit the conversation.

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2020, 07:35:30 PM »
And I get that, and I think there are ways to argue against the non-DTF things without mixing it in with what we're saying. That's all.

If people on youtube or Sean Hannity or whatever (I'm not even sure who that is) is saying Y and Z and you have a LOT to say about that, awesome. Let it rip. Just don't mix it in with a reply to someone else' argument because it makes the conversation extremely difficult for many of us. And we want to argue with you. We want to destroy you. We want to rape your soul. But you're making that difficult! Just lay down and take it!
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Online Stadler

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2020, 07:37:49 PM »
And I get that, and I think there are ways to argue against the non-DTF things without mixing it in with what we're saying. That's all.

If people on youtube or Sean Hannity or whatever (I'm not even sure who that is) is saying Y and Z and you have a LOT to say about that, awesome. Let it rip. Just don't mix it in with a reply to someone else' argument because it makes the conversation extremely difficult for many of us. And we want to argue with you. We want to destroy you. We want to rape your soul. But you're making that difficult! Just lay down and take it!

I'm not NEARLY going that far.   To talk about "student loan" (many administered by government funded entities), "student loan forgiveness" (by politicians) and the candidates themselves for the highest government office in the land, and then to suppose we can have a conversation without mentioning government, I'm not sure I even know how to do that.   

But since you put it that way, my safe word is "Rapunzel". 

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2020, 03:26:46 PM »
Just stumbled upon this and it's relevant to this discussion

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/a-new-report-finds-only-16-of-millennials-qualify-at-financially-literate-195635534.html

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1) Suppose you had $100 in a savings account, and the interest rate was 2% per year. After 5 years, how much do you think you would have in the account if you left the money to grow? Answers: a) More than $102; b) Exactly $102; c) Less than $102; d) Do not know; e) Refuse to answer.

2) Imagine that the interest rate on your savings account was 1% per year and inflation was 2% per year. After 1 year, how much would you be able to buy with the money in this account? Answers: a) More than today; b) Exactly the same; c) Less than today; d) Do not know; e) Refuse to answer.

3) Please tell me whether this statement is true or false. “Buying a single company’s stock usually provides a safer return than a stock mutual fund.” Answers: a) True; b) False; c) Do not know; d) Refuse to answer.

Only 16% of millenials answered all three correctly. 

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The lack of financial literacy intersects directly with the student loan crisis; statistics show Americans have $1.6 trillion in outstanding debt, working out to $29,200 per borrower.

According to the TIAA report, 43% of millennials have a loan. And of those that are currently working off their loan, 47% of respondents reported that they did not look into what their monthly loan repayment bill would be at the time they decided to accept a loan.

The challenge is getting young people educated and then out of debt and on the path to savings while they still have time for the money to grow. As Hasler says, she often tell her students "compound interest even works when we’re asleep.

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2020, 03:45:16 PM »
Interesting, but it's not like we (my generation) had training in this kind of thing either.


I don't think that 29k in College debt is that bad, considering some of the schools we've been looking at.

I graduated college in 1990 with about 16k in loans. $153.70 a month for 10 years, plus another $30 a month for the 5 years.


You just hope these kids have some guidance, because honestly, no kid entering college is really equipped to make these decisions.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2020, 03:45:59 PM »
What's with the refuse to answer?

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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2020, 03:49:19 PM »
Nobody does.
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