Author Topic: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...  (Read 3318 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49033
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2020, 03:50:07 PM »
Nobody does.

Dave, is that you in your avatar, and if not, who is it?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 1591
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2020, 03:50:53 PM »
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49033
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2020, 03:59:06 PM »
Gotcha!
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline lordxizor

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4186
  • Gender: Male
  • and that is the truth.
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2020, 06:15:28 AM »
I am determined that my kids will understand money and basic financial stuff by the time they're on their own. We homeschool and I've bee using a financial curriculum I found to teach them the basics now. I'm stumbled my way through finances without screwing up too badly, but I'd certainly be in a lot stranger place if I knew when I first started out what I know now.

I am fully convinced that we are not taught about finances in school at more than a very basic level because our economy in completely dependent on people spending far more than they can afford to. The government doesn't want us to save 20%+ for retirement and paying off our credit cards every month.

Offline Grappler

  • Posts: 2019
  • Gender: Male
  • Victory, Illinois Varsity
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2020, 07:18:36 AM »
I don't agree with any idea of eliminating a person's debt just because life is hard.  Guess what?  I went to college nearly 20 years ago and when I graduated, the job market sucked too.  I had a tough time finding a job at first.  It took me those 20 years to make the salary that I do now.  I lived at home until I could afford to move out (at age 25).  I bought a small car with a 6 year loan just so I could have small monthly payments and while I lived at home, paid double each month to pay it off early. 

I was fortunate to not have student loans.  My wife had them.  She worked her ass off to pay them off early.  We skipped taking some vacations.  We didn't buy flat screen TV's right away.  We didn't have the very first smart phones.  Tax refunds ALWAYS went straight to bills or into savings.  We delayed having kids until we felt that we could afford it.  We lived in an affordable apartment.  We bought an affordable home, despite being approved for a higher mortgage.

Cram is so right - I had a friend that took out a second mortgage on their house just to finance a 2 weeks trip to Australia.  People don't understand sacrificing financially and feel the need to spend way more than they have.  Everything is about being able to have what you want right now and portray a certain lifestyle on social media.

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2020, 07:51:09 AM »
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2020, 07:58:38 AM »
Nobody does.

Dave, is that you in your avatar, and if not, who is it?

This fella:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Either/Or_(album)

And wearing a Hank Williams, Jr. t-shirt (I would hope not ironically). 

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2020, 08:16:39 AM »
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

I can't speak for the Grappler, but I know for me, that's not the mindset.  For all my curmudgeonness here, I relish and welcome the ways my kids have been able to alleviate stressors and hardship in their life.   I've busted nuggets to make sure that kids have a better life in every way possible.  My beef is about the general notion that someone is always going to rush in and save you if life happens to slip a mickey in your drink.  It's the marketing and sale of "abdication of responsibility" that I don't like, the notion that somehow this is a RIGHT to be free of not debt but bad decisions.   

That's really what this is about:  it's not about "freeing from debt", it's about "freeing from responsibility". 

(And to be clear:  I'm talking about the blanket wiping of debt; if there is a specific case of lending fraud or something like that, I don't have a problem with guv'mint stepping in and cracking down on that.  I just know that most of the debt we're talking about absolving is from arm's-length transactions with knowing, competent adults, and so isn't about wrong-doing.)

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2020, 08:24:24 AM »
And I can agree with that.

The issue, as some of us see it, specifically with this stuff (not all debt) is that the system is so unfair. So someone coming in to fix the system and helping some people screwed over by it is not the same as saying no one has any responsibility.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Grappler

  • Posts: 2019
  • Gender: Male
  • Victory, Illinois Varsity
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2020, 08:37:56 AM »
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

It's not that at all.  It's that people need to be financially responsible, period.  My life wasn't hard at all.  I learned that debt is generally manageable if you sacrifice, barring some catastrophic emergency.  I know that there are some people that do live frugally and are still burdened with debt.  But I also know that it's possible to manage it successfully, though it takes serious dedication and responsibility over time.  I don't see a younger generation handling that well, with the idea that life should be easy and handed to them on a silver platter. 

-------

Stadler nailed it for me.  It's a responsibility issue, not a financial one.  At some point, people have to grow up and become responsible adults, which includes figuring out how to manage your lifestyle and your debt.  In my case, that was via sacrificing things that all of my friends and extended family were doing.  I know others that worked two jobs - a full time career type job, plus a night retail/server job, just to have that extra spending money.

I have no problem with fixing the system, but the fix isn't that (student) debt should be wiped free.  What happens when that student wants to buy a house, has a mortgage, and then catastrophe happens?  Will they be prepared to handle the financial responsibility?  Or will they expect another bailout because life just got hard for them again?

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2020, 08:38:46 AM »
And I can agree with that.

The issue, as some of us see it, specifically with this stuff (not all debt) is that the system is so unfair. So someone coming in to fix the system and helping some people screwed over by it is not the same as saying no one has any responsibility.

To say that "taking out a student loan and having to pay it back" is "unfair" or "being screwed over".... you might as well be speaking in Hebrew while I'm speaking in Polish.   Does not compute.

I'm going to assume you mean the high cost of higher education here in the States, but we've already covered that.  Not every school is Harvard; the tuition at Southern Connecticut (one of the five state schools here in CT) is about $5,700 a semester, figure double that if you're living on campus.  When people are taking out loans for $50,000 cars, I don't see a $45,000 tuition bill (assuming that there is NO cash contribution or scholarships) is "unfair" or "being screwed over".   

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27759
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2020, 08:42:23 AM »
I think the system is broken, but I don't believe it is currently "unfair" No one forces you to sign a loan, although pressure from society may push you and that is one aspect that is broken IMO.

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2020, 08:45:09 AM »
And I can agree with that.

The issue, as some of us see it, specifically with this stuff (not all debt) is that the system is so unfair. So someone coming in to fix the system and helping some people screwed over by it is not the same as saying no one has any responsibility.

To say that "taking out a student loan and having to pay it back" is "unfair" or "being screwed over".... you might as well be speaking in Hebrew while I'm speaking in Polish.   Does not compute.

I'm going to assume you mean the high cost of higher education here in the States, but we've already covered that.  Not every school is Harvard; the tuition at Southern Connecticut (one of the five state schools here in CT) is about $5,700 a semester, figure double that if you're living on campus.  When people are taking out loans for $50,000 cars, I don't see a $45,000 tuition bill (assuming that there is NO cash contribution or scholarships) is "unfair" or "being screwed over".

אני לא מדבר פולני.

But yes, I meant the whole cost.

And again, I'm glad YOU and your ilk are able to find such affordable options. But what happens if every single student goes that route? Those schools can't take on that many students, they raise their prices, etc. So your plan works for some people, and it doesn't work for other people.

I don't think the system is unfair for people that everything works for, but the people who it doesn't work for are just as important as you and your family who do tons of research and live in an area where there are plenty of good options. Not everyone can do that though and you need to stop assuming it's a blanket solution. And that JUST applies to some basic undergrad work in very common subjects. I'm also referring to higher education beyond the Associates or Bachelor's level. There are no community grad schools that charge 4 grand a semester that I know of.

So yes, the whole education system is unfair currently. Maybe not to every single person who knows exactly what to do and has plenty of options, but to enough people that it can be changed.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2020, 08:50:27 AM »
And I can agree with that.

The issue, as some of us see it, specifically with this stuff (not all debt) is that the system is so unfair. So someone coming in to fix the system and helping some people screwed over by it is not the same as saying no one has any responsibility.

To say that "taking out a student loan and having to pay it back" is "unfair" or "being screwed over".... you might as well be speaking in Hebrew while I'm speaking in Polish.   Does not compute.

I'm going to assume you mean the high cost of higher education here in the States, but we've already covered that.  Not every school is Harvard; the tuition at Southern Connecticut (one of the five state schools here in CT) is about $5,700 a semester, figure double that if you're living on campus.  When people are taking out loans for $50,000 cars, I don't see a $45,000 tuition bill (assuming that there is NO cash contribution or scholarships) is "unfair" or "being screwed over".

אני לא מדבר פולני.

But yes, I meant the whole cost.

Can I repeat that in front of my kids?   :) :) :)

Speaking of which, my 12-year-old step son came home from school yesterday and told us that some kid called him a "See You Next Tuesday" in the stairwell.  I haven't felt that mixed a set of emotions in a long time.  Part of me wanted to laugh, part of me got angry (my son is on the spectrum and so takes that stuff very seriously in his way; he was really upset and predictably, didn't want to go to school today), and part of me was heartbroken that at 12 we're at that level.  He's supposed to be building models and playing basketball and watching funny dog videos and...  his favorite books are still Dog-man and the like.  Sorry to hi-jack the thread...

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9640
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2020, 08:55:49 AM »
Speaking of which, my 12-year-old step son came home from school yesterday and told us that some kid called him a "See You Next Tuesday" in the stairwell.  I haven't felt that mixed a set of emotions in a long time.  Part of me wanted to laugh, part of me got angry (my son is on the spectrum and so takes that stuff very seriously in his way; he was really upset and predictably, didn't want to go to school today), and part of me was heartbroken that at 12 we're at that level.  He's supposed to be building models and playing basketball and watching funny dog videos and...  his favorite books are still Dog-man and the like.  Sorry to hi-jack the thread...

Give him a dollar.  Give him fifty cents.  You can take it back if that ain't what you meant.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2020, 08:58:35 AM »
And I can agree with that.

The issue, as some of us see it, specifically with this stuff (not all debt) is that the system is so unfair. So someone coming in to fix the system and helping some people screwed over by it is not the same as saying no one has any responsibility.

To say that "taking out a student loan and having to pay it back" is "unfair" or "being screwed over".... you might as well be speaking in Hebrew while I'm speaking in Polish.   Does not compute.

I'm going to assume you mean the high cost of higher education here in the States, but we've already covered that.  Not every school is Harvard; the tuition at Southern Connecticut (one of the five state schools here in CT) is about $5,700 a semester, figure double that if you're living on campus.  When people are taking out loans for $50,000 cars, I don't see a $45,000 tuition bill (assuming that there is NO cash contribution or scholarships) is "unfair" or "being screwed over".

אני לא מדבר פולני.

But yes, I meant the whole cost.

Can I repeat that in front of my kids?   :) :) :)


If you can read it!

Just says I don't speak Polish.

Or do you mean my concerns with the cost of education? Yes. Please tell your kids. :)
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2020, 09:24:40 AM »
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

I can't speak for the Grappler, but I know for me, that's not the mindset.  For all my curmudgeonness here, I relish and welcome the ways my kids have been able to alleviate stressors and hardship in their life.   I've busted nuggets to make sure that kids have a better life in every way possible.  My beef is about the general notion that someone is always going to rush in and save you if life happens to slip a mickey in your drink.  It's the marketing and sale of "abdication of responsibility" that I don't like, the notion that somehow this is a RIGHT to be free of not debt but bad decisions.   

That's really what this is about:  it's not about "freeing from debt", it's about "freeing from responsibility". 

(And to be clear:  I'm talking about the blanket wiping of debt; if there is a specific case of lending fraud or something like that, I don't have a problem with guv'mint stepping in and cracking down on that.  I just know that most of the debt we're talking about absolving is from arm's-length transactions with knowing, competent adults, and so isn't about wrong-doing.)
I'm having a hard time linking responsibility to predation. We have laws in place to keep some people from being exploited. Arbitrary cutoff points where you're either a victim or a culpable dipshit. Just because you happen to be on the rotten side of one of those arbitrary markers shouldn't make you fair game for being duped, and I'm not real keen to tell people to suck it up and deal with it, just because when they were 18 they allowed themselves to be fleeced. That's not how civilized people should conduct themselves.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 1020
  • Gender: Male
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2020, 09:43:15 AM »
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along. 

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2020, 09:46:38 AM »
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

I can't speak for the Grappler, but I know for me, that's not the mindset.  For all my curmudgeonness here, I relish and welcome the ways my kids have been able to alleviate stressors and hardship in their life.   I've busted nuggets to make sure that kids have a better life in every way possible.  My beef is about the general notion that someone is always going to rush in and save you if life happens to slip a mickey in your drink.  It's the marketing and sale of "abdication of responsibility" that I don't like, the notion that somehow this is a RIGHT to be free of not debt but bad decisions.   

That's really what this is about:  it's not about "freeing from debt", it's about "freeing from responsibility". 

(And to be clear:  I'm talking about the blanket wiping of debt; if there is a specific case of lending fraud or something like that, I don't have a problem with guv'mint stepping in and cracking down on that.  I just know that most of the debt we're talking about absolving is from arm's-length transactions with knowing, competent adults, and so isn't about wrong-doing.)
I'm having a hard time linking responsibility to predation. We have laws in place to keep some people from being exploited. Arbitrary cutoff points where you're either a victim or a culpable dipshit. Just because you happen to be on the rotten side of one of those arbitrary markers shouldn't make you fair game for being duped, and I'm not real keen to tell people to suck it up and deal with it, just because when they were 18 they allowed themselves to be fleeced. That's not how civilized people should conduct themselves.

This is the most important element of the discussion IMO. We're not talking about some 30 year old who took out a car loan they couldn't afford. We're talking about people that have been deemed by law to be too irresponsible to drink beer or smoke cigarettes, but we'll let them sign themselves up for a $50K+ loan with absolutely zero life experience of any kind. I get they could have just "done math", but there are variables that they can't work into the equation simply because they don't know they exist. When I was 18, I wasn't considering having to decide whether I should spend $6000 on replacing my house's sills or cutting down a tree that threatens to crush it. I've been a homeowner for over five years now and I'm still learning the hard way how hard keeping your finances predictable can be. In theory, saving up $5000 shouldn't be that hard given my salary, but when a few dozen things come up throughout the year that all cost $150+, you end up learning how expensive life truly is. An 18 year old simply has no clue or concept as to what $50K actually is, or how hard it can be to come up with that sum of money outside of the general cost of living.

I feel sorry for them. I really do. They were preyed on and had their inexperience taken advantage of.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2020, 10:52:00 AM »
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

I can't speak for the Grappler, but I know for me, that's not the mindset.  For all my curmudgeonness here, I relish and welcome the ways my kids have been able to alleviate stressors and hardship in their life.   I've busted nuggets to make sure that kids have a better life in every way possible.  My beef is about the general notion that someone is always going to rush in and save you if life happens to slip a mickey in your drink.  It's the marketing and sale of "abdication of responsibility" that I don't like, the notion that somehow this is a RIGHT to be free of not debt but bad decisions.   

That's really what this is about:  it's not about "freeing from debt", it's about "freeing from responsibility". 

(And to be clear:  I'm talking about the blanket wiping of debt; if there is a specific case of lending fraud or something like that, I don't have a problem with guv'mint stepping in and cracking down on that.  I just know that most of the debt we're talking about absolving is from arm's-length transactions with knowing, competent adults, and so isn't about wrong-doing.)
I'm having a hard time linking responsibility to predation. We have laws in place to keep some people from being exploited. Arbitrary cutoff points where you're either a victim or a culpable dipshit. Just because you happen to be on the rotten side of one of those arbitrary markers shouldn't make you fair game for being duped, and I'm not real keen to tell people to suck it up and deal with it, just because when they were 18 they allowed themselves to be fleeced. That's not how civilized people should conduct themselves.

But unless you think lending generally is "predatory", I'm not sure we're on opposite sides of the equation here.  My ParentPLUS loan wasn't predatory in any sense of the word.   I can't even imagine a scenario where I should benefit from absolution of that loan.  I'll take it, of course, and I make a living out of constructing arguments where none exist, but I'm at a loss here.  I got nothing. 

It seems, to me, similar to the weed argument; we're okay letting 18 year olds do a whole ton of things that can (and do) ruin their lives, but now that money is involved, it's a problem?   And I say that, because I think that's a key part of this:  money IS involved, and now it DOES become a problem because it's a tool to foment the class warfare that is increasingly being a tool of political candidates.   

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2020, 10:55:03 AM »
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 1020
  • Gender: Male
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2020, 11:01:14 AM »
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2020, 11:29:50 AM »
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

I can't speak for the Grappler, but I know for me, that's not the mindset.  For all my curmudgeonness here, I relish and welcome the ways my kids have been able to alleviate stressors and hardship in their life.   I've busted nuggets to make sure that kids have a better life in every way possible.  My beef is about the general notion that someone is always going to rush in and save you if life happens to slip a mickey in your drink.  It's the marketing and sale of "abdication of responsibility" that I don't like, the notion that somehow this is a RIGHT to be free of not debt but bad decisions.   

That's really what this is about:  it's not about "freeing from debt", it's about "freeing from responsibility". 

(And to be clear:  I'm talking about the blanket wiping of debt; if there is a specific case of lending fraud or something like that, I don't have a problem with guv'mint stepping in and cracking down on that.  I just know that most of the debt we're talking about absolving is from arm's-length transactions with knowing, competent adults, and so isn't about wrong-doing.)
I'm having a hard time linking responsibility to predation. We have laws in place to keep some people from being exploited. Arbitrary cutoff points where you're either a victim or a culpable dipshit. Just because you happen to be on the rotten side of one of those arbitrary markers shouldn't make you fair game for being duped, and I'm not real keen to tell people to suck it up and deal with it, just because when they were 18 they allowed themselves to be fleeced. That's not how civilized people should conduct themselves.

But unless you think lending generally is "predatory", I'm not sure we're on opposite sides of the equation here.  My ParentPLUS loan wasn't predatory in any sense of the word.   I can't even imagine a scenario where I should benefit from absolution of that loan.  I'll take it, of course, and I make a living out of constructing arguments where none exist, but I'm at a loss here.  I got nothing. 
I think much of it is. It's not binary. Not all lenders are predatory. I have 3 credit cards, and I've taken out a couple of small personal loans in my time. I don't consider those predatory. Yet there's a reason why I don't pass any payday lenders on my drive to work, yet they're ubiquitous 3 miles South of me. Smarter and more informed people don't agree to such ridiculous terms. There's a reason why car salesmen would rather whip out the four square than just tell you what the price is. There's a reason Citi and Chase will send credit apps to high school kids. It goes on and on. And yes, I think there are a lot of student loans that are absolutely predatory in nature. And given a hundred years of conditioning that college is crucial it's even wider than merely the finer points of the loans.

Quote
It seems, to me, similar to the weed argument; we're okay letting 18 year olds do a whole ton of things that can (and do) ruin their lives, but now that money is involved, it's a problem?   And I say that, because I think that's a key part of this:  money IS involved, and now it DOES become a problem because it's a tool to foment the class warfare that is increasingly being a tool of political candidates. 
I'd suggest that were OK letting them, and prohibiting them, based on whether or not it benefits the people making the decisions, frankly.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2020, 11:44:44 AM »
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

No, I know you are, but that's not to say you might not be familiar with it.  I think to some degree this issue is clouded with, if not "misinformation" (Fake News!) but maybe, lack of familiarity.  That's not a dig at you; you wouldn't know if you didn't actually involve yourself in it. I have. And I had to give volumes of information as part of that process.  They know whether I have money or not.  Many schools set their obligation based on that data.  So the notion that you go on a website, see that "Stadler University" charges $10,000 in tuition and $60,000 in room and board (for the experience!) and assume that only beyonaires can afford this is not accurate.   If you go down the hallway at my daughter's school, I'll be you there are 10 or more different actual amounts being paid.  Not every kid pays the same, and a large part of that difference is based on ability to pay.   

I'm not sure how much more progressive we can get on this.  What more "reform" is possible? 

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2020, 11:50:23 AM »
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

No, I know you are, but that's not to say you might not be familiar with it.  I think to some degree this issue is clouded with, if not "misinformation" (Fake News!) but maybe, lack of familiarity.  That's not a dig at you; you wouldn't know if you didn't actually involve yourself in it. I have. And I had to give volumes of information as part of that process.  They know whether I have money or not.  Many schools set their obligation based on that data.  So the notion that you go on a website, see that "Stadler University" charges $10,000 in tuition and $60,000 in room and board (for the experience!) and assume that only beyonaires can afford this is not accurate.   If you go down the hallway at my daughter's school, I'll be you there are 10 or more different actual amounts being paid.  Not every kid pays the same, and a large part of that difference is based on ability to pay.   

I'm not sure how much more progressive we can get on this.  What more "reform" is possible?

Trade schools and associate degrees cost students the same amount that grades K-12 cost them?


Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 1020
  • Gender: Male
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2020, 11:53:33 AM »
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

No, I know you are, but that's not to say you might not be familiar with it.  I think to some degree this issue is clouded with, if not "misinformation" (Fake News!) but maybe, lack of familiarity.  That's not a dig at you; you wouldn't know if you didn't actually involve yourself in it. I have. And I had to give volumes of information as part of that process.  They know whether I have money or not.  Many schools set their obligation based on that data.  So the notion that you go on a website, see that "Stadler University" charges $10,000 in tuition and $60,000 in room and board (for the experience!) and assume that only beyonaires can afford this is not accurate.   If you go down the hallway at my daughter's school, I'll be you there are 10 or more different actual amounts being paid.  Not every kid pays the same, and a large part of that difference is based on ability to pay.   

I'm not sure how much more progressive we can get on this.  What more "reform" is possible?

I don't know if I'm saying the same thing you are and I'm not familiar with how it works in the US but here I believe (I could be wrong because I don't have a lot of experience) a school has set tuition fees they charge and when you apply for financial aid the amount is based on how much you (or usually your parents) can afford to pay.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2020, 11:57:28 AM »
But unless you think lending generally is "predatory", I'm not sure we're on opposite sides of the equation here.  My ParentPLUS loan wasn't predatory in any sense of the word.   I can't even imagine a scenario where I should benefit from absolution of that loan.  I'll take it, of course, and I make a living out of constructing arguments where none exist, but I'm at a loss here.  I got nothing. 
I think much of it is. It's not binary. Not all lenders are predatory. I have 3 credit cards, and I've taken out a couple of small personal loans in my time. I don't consider those predatory. Yet there's a reason why I don't pass any payday lenders on my drive to work, yet they're ubiquitous 3 miles South of me. Smarter and more informed people don't agree to such ridiculous terms. There's a reason why car salesmen would rather whip out the four square than just tell you what the price is. There's a reason Citi and Chase will send credit apps to high school kids. It goes on and on. And yes, I think there are a lot of student loans that are absolutely predatory in nature. And given a hundred years of conditioning that college is crucial it's even wider than merely the finer points of the loans.

I don't think it's binary either; on that we agree.  But I think the credible student loan issuers - the Feds, the Sallie Mae's - are FAR from "pay day loan" territory.

I'm indifferent on the "conditioning" argument; it's not without merit, so it's more complicated than that.  These are getting to be old numbers now (but they inform those that have student loans now).   Presumably, and doing the math for time-value of money, yadda yadda yadda, by this measure, college is a bargain.  And again, doing the math for time-value of money, yadda yadda yadda, unless your payments are astronomical per year, you're ahead on average.  Finally, even if you're in the minor percentage where this doesn't work according to Hoyle, you're almost exactly twice as likely to have a job if you have a college degree than if you don't.   Which puts us in that famous place we always seem to end up in:  forcing 260 million people to pony up and bear the burden for about 60 million people, tops.  The ACA:  We put out and inconvenienced 150 million plus to pander to what, 15 million people?   Not to suggest AT ALL that we not help these people, but let's do it with a little more precision, and a little more scrupulousness, instead of swinging the blunt edge "vote hammer" and making it a sales pitch.   

Side bar question:  would you outlaw pay day loans?  (I don't believe they are legal in my state, for example.)

Quote
Quote
It seems, to me, similar to the weed argument; we're okay letting 18 year olds do a whole ton of things that can (and do) ruin their lives, but now that money is involved, it's a problem?   And I say that, because I think that's a key part of this:  money IS involved, and now it DOES become a problem because it's a tool to foment the class warfare that is increasingly being a tool of political candidates. 
I'd suggest that were OK letting them, and prohibiting them, based on whether or not it benefits the people making the decisions, frankly.

Can't really argue that.   

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2020, 12:07:18 PM »
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

No, I know you are, but that's not to say you might not be familiar with it.  I think to some degree this issue is clouded with, if not "misinformation" (Fake News!) but maybe, lack of familiarity.  That's not a dig at you; you wouldn't know if you didn't actually involve yourself in it. I have. And I had to give volumes of information as part of that process.  They know whether I have money or not.  Many schools set their obligation based on that data.  So the notion that you go on a website, see that "Stadler University" charges $10,000 in tuition and $60,000 in room and board (for the experience!) and assume that only beyonaires can afford this is not accurate.   If you go down the hallway at my daughter's school, I'll be you there are 10 or more different actual amounts being paid.  Not every kid pays the same, and a large part of that difference is based on ability to pay.   

I'm not sure how much more progressive we can get on this.  What more "reform" is possible?

Trade schools and associate degrees cost students the same amount that grades K-12 cost them?

I would argue it does.

My town: total budget of roughly $138M.  Board of education budget:  $72M, or 52%.   My property taxes last year?  Roughly $8,700, 52% of which is $4,500.     Asnuntuck, a community college/trade school near me, has an annual tuition of about $4,400.    It's just paid differently. 

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2020, 12:16:06 PM »
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

No, I know you are, but that's not to say you might not be familiar with it.  I think to some degree this issue is clouded with, if not "misinformation" (Fake News!) but maybe, lack of familiarity.  That's not a dig at you; you wouldn't know if you didn't actually involve yourself in it. I have. And I had to give volumes of information as part of that process.  They know whether I have money or not.  Many schools set their obligation based on that data.  So the notion that you go on a website, see that "Stadler University" charges $10,000 in tuition and $60,000 in room and board (for the experience!) and assume that only beyonaires can afford this is not accurate.   If you go down the hallway at my daughter's school, I'll be you there are 10 or more different actual amounts being paid.  Not every kid pays the same, and a large part of that difference is based on ability to pay.   

I'm not sure how much more progressive we can get on this.  What more "reform" is possible?

Trade schools and associate degrees cost students the same amount that grades K-12 cost them?

I would argue it does.

My town: total budget of roughly $138M.  Board of education budget:  $72M, or 52%.   My property taxes last year?  Roughly $8,700, 52% of which is $4,500.     Asnuntuck, a community college/trade school near me, has an annual tuition of about $4,400.    It's just paid differently.

What if you have more than one kid that wants an education beyond high school? I feel like your math only works if you have one kid that wants to go to that school. And even then, I don't think the argument really flies. That kid went to K-12 for no money out of their pocket.


What about the kids whose parents aren't paying that annual $4400 for them? When they get out of school, they'll be paying off that $4400 in addition to that 52% of their property tax.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2020, 12:27:33 PM »
Well, no, it's not meant to be dollar for dollar.  The point was to respectfully and vociferously push back on this notion that they went to school "with no money out of pocket".   That's the misconception.   NONE OF THIS is "no money out of pocket".   If anything, K-12 is MORE expensive, because you have suckers like me paying the $4500 each year for the school system while my kid went to a private school 30 miles away (not only would I do it again, but we're advocating with my stepson's father that we need to be doing the same thing with him).   

(To further complicate matters, Asnuntuck gets money from the state as well, so we're actually subsidizing that already with our state income taxes; add to that about 65% of Asnuntuck students get grant money - that is, money that is NOT a loan and does NOT have to be paid back - and I ask again:  how much more progressive do we have to make this?)

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2020, 12:32:04 PM »
Let me be clear here; if we all collectively decide that "education", like "healthcare", is a "basic human right" (I would disagree, but for arguments sake, let's say), then so be it.  Eyes wide open, let's do this.  I'm more pushing back on some of the misconceptions of the discussion, and primarily the notion that it's a "rigged system" with no clear solution for the Everyman.   

I think candidates like Bernie are throwing around $20, $30 TRILLION numbers without a lot of transparency or clarity and that's dangerous. 

Offline Phoenix87x

  • From the ashes
  • Posts: 7591
  • The Phoenix shall rise
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2020, 11:52:25 AM »
Student loan interest is on hold for a while if I'm reading this right

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/13/what-to-do-now-that-trump-suspended-student-loan-interest-payments.html


Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2020, 12:26:17 PM »
In the car during lunch today I was listening to a history professor talking about her book on cheating. She mentioned numerous letters Thomas Jefferson wrote to comrades about how to rip off the Red Man and take his land. Basically, Tom was encouraging the people running trading outposts, governmentally owned at the time, to encourage overspending. Since Tonto barely got the concept of a barter system, or ownership of land, and understood credit even less, it'd be a simple matter to get him massively into debt and seize his land as repayment. Is this acceptable? Is it the White Man's fault that the Indians don't really understand the terms of their agreements? It seems to me that pert near everybody would describe this as fucking disgraceful, but only because we're sympathetic to the Indians. Do it to a white guy and sympathy is replaced by "next time read the contract, dumbass." What's the difference?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 15804
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2020, 12:35:48 PM »
In the car during lunch today I was listening to a history professor talking about her book on cheating. She mentioned numerous letters Thomas Jefferson wrote to comrades about how to rip off the Red Man and take his land. Basically, Tom was encouraging the people running trading outposts, governmentally owned at the time, to encourage overspending. Since Tonto barely got the concept of a barter system, or ownership of land, and understood credit even less, it'd be a simple matter to get him massively into debt and seize his land as repayment. Is this acceptable? Is it the White Man's fault that the Indians don't really understand the terms of their agreements? It seems to me that pert near everybody would describe this as fucking disgraceful, but only because we're sympathetic to the Indians. Do it to a white guy and sympathy is replaced by "next time read the contract, dumbass." What's the difference?

I don't think there's any 'good' way to look at what was done to the Native American Indians. It's pretty horrific actually. Absolutely nothing to be 'proud' of. I think it's just chalked up in history as in the age of conquest the Indians just 'lost'. 'Our' tactics were unfair and predatory and brutal but at the same time in that period of history it was still 'acceptable' to obtain land by all means necessary. It's a simplistic and brutal way to look at it and I in no way thing that what we did to 'win' was right....but, it happened and here we are.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 15804
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2020, 12:38:42 PM »
Piggy backing off that topic......I often wonder what this continent would look like had the Europeans never shown up. The Native American's were brutal towards each other....we know that, but....at the same time that culture and way of life was so much more in tune with the Natural World. Much more appreciation and respect shown to the land, animals and nature in general.

I wonder how the culture and civilization would have evolved? Where would it be now?
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind