2020 NFL Thread v. Tom Brady aging better than Mila Kunis

[bosk1]

Redskins looking into changing team name.  Interesting how it took pressure from sponsors to prompt it.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29405011/redskins-undergo-thorough-review-nickname

About damn time. It's shameful that in 2020 we still have a sports team named after a racial slur.

I think for it to qualify as a "racial slur," it has to (1) be objectively demeaning, and (2) be objectively demeaning/offensive to the group in question.  So (1) referring only to the color of skin isn't.  (2) We aren't offended or demeaned.  But that said, if White folks think it is somehow offensive and want to change it, there's certainly no harm. 

[DragonAttack]

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a29318/redskin-name-update/

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a29445/true-redskins-meaning/

[El Barto]

That really doens't make much sense. Sports teams tend to be named after things that are brave, or scary, or noble. Seems a lot more plausible that they were going after the, perhaps incorrect, other interpretation of the expression; a slang term for Indians. That's why we have the Bears and Lions rather than the Pelts or the Furs. And the Cowboys instead of the Bounties (NOLA not withstanding). It's also why we have the Chiefs, the Braves, the Indians, and the Blackhawks.

Since the Redskins name seems to offend a tiny percentage of Indians (and a whole lot of bleeding hearts) then go ahead and change it. I couldn't care less. No need to go attributing alternative rationale to it, though.

[bosk1]

Yay, that age-old authority on all things Indian-related, Esquire Magazine, to the rescue! 

But in all seriousness, those articles are close to poster children for the flaws in trying to reason that it is a racial slur that I pointed to above.  Barto has it right. 

[pg1067]

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a29318/redskin-name-update/

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a29445/true-redskins-meaning/

The headline of the first linked article tells us that "a 'redskin' . . . [means] the scalped head of a native American, sold, like a pelt, for cash."  However, it starts with a photo of an 1863 news article that tells us that a "reward for dead Indians has been increased for $200 for every red-skin sent to Purgatory."  That article demonstrates exactly the opposite of what the headline claims since the notion of sending a "scalped head" to purgatory would make no sense at all since "scalped heads" do not go to purgatory -- only souls do.

When I was in law school, I took a trademark law case and read a handful of cases relating to efforts to cancel the "Redskins" trademark, and the evidence in those cases was fairly overwhelming that most American Indians didn't give much of a rip about the issue.  Of course, that's all 20+ year old information.

At the end of the day, however, I think exactly what El Barto wrote.

I'd also be willing to bet a dollar or two that, at the Washington Gerrymanderers' first game with fans, you will hear the loudest rendition of "Hail to the Redskins" that has ever been heard.

[hunnus2000]

I am not naïve enough to to think that this name change is caused by a "tiny percent of Indians" or "a lot of bleeding hearts" as much one other motivation - money.  Look what FedEx and Amazon have done along with other major companies. They had no other choice other than keeping the name and watching their brand sink.

If little Danny Snyder woke up and had an epiphany, it was his accountants bending over him telling him how much money the organization was about to lose.

[King Postwhore]

And those companies putting pressure were afraid of backlash if they didnt put pressure on the team. 

Feels like politics to me.

[Ben_Jamin]

I am not naïve enough to to think that this name change is caused by a "tiny percent of Indians" or "a lot of bleeding hearts" as much one other motivation - money.  Look what FedEx and Amazon have done along with other major companies. They had no other choice other than keeping the name and watching their brand sink.

If little Danny Snyder woke up and had an epiphany, it was his accountants bending over him telling him how much money the organization was about to lose.

So much this...


Look, I'm Native and I don't have a problem with the Redskins name. It's just a word, and a name of a FOOTBALL TEAM, that plays a GAME, to entertain you.

First off, I have to ask those that have a problem with it. Do you watch Football? If not, why do you care so much about something you have no interest in that many others do?

We as Native People have many other more important things to try and change than a freaking name.

What I am worried about it is how The Owner was forced to have to change his name. He still holds his ground. And is only succumbing to the name change because, it was either: You change the name or no football team. Being demanded by people that aren't even Native American to begin with and probably don't even watch Football.

[hunnus2000]

And those companies putting pressure were afraid of backlash if they didnt put pressure on the team. 

Feels like politics to me.

Not as much politics as economics. The corporations live and breath on data along with brand recognition.  I would bet a paycheck that they ran the numbers, reports and such and decided it was in their best interest to change course. Now if you see Trump getting involved with a tweet, then it would be politics.

[El Barto]

I am not naïve enough to to think that this name change is caused by a "tiny percent of Indians" or "a lot of bleeding hearts" as much one other motivation - money.  Look what FedEx and Amazon have done along with other major companies. They had no other choice other than keeping the name and watching their brand sink.

If little Danny Snyder woke up and had an epiphany, it was his accountants bending over him telling him how much money the organization was about to lose.

It was "a whole lot" of bleeding hearts, and they are the ones responsible. The only people who care least of all about this are FedEX and Amazon. It's nothing to them, and nor should it be. Those bleeding hearts who are outraged on behalf of the Indians add up, though, and FedEX is damn sure afraid of them.

[lordxizor]

Huh... I had no idea that most Indians aren't offended by the Redskins name. I figured most would at least think "yeah, it's degrading, but I've got bigger fish to fry." I still think it's one of those things that needed to change, but it's a shame that it was clearly about the money and not about being decent to the people who were here before us.

[hunnus2000]

I am not naïve enough to to think that this name change is caused by a "tiny percent of Indians" or "a lot of bleeding hearts" as much one other motivation - money.  Look what FedEx and Amazon have done along with other major companies. They had no other choice other than keeping the name and watching their brand sink.

If little Danny Snyder woke up and had an epiphany, it was his accountants bending over him telling him how much money the organization was about to lose.

It was "a whole lot" of bleeding hearts, and they are the ones responsible. The only people who care least of all about this are FedEX and Amazon. It's nothing to them, and nor should it be. Those bleeding hearts who are outraged on behalf of the Indians add up, though, and FedEX is damn sure afraid of them.

If FedEx didn't care then why did they ask the organization to change the name of the stadium  that has their name on it? And why was Amazon going to stop selling jerseys and paraphernalia?

I'm not surer if you know this but "the whole lot of bleeding hearts" have been trying to get the name changed for decades, always falling on deaf ears with little Danny Snyder saying "over my dead body". Maybe we should check to see if he's still alive?

[King Postwhore]

And those companies putting pressure were afraid of backlash if they didnt put pressure on the team. 

Feels like politics to me.

Not as much politics as economics. The corporations live and breath on data along with brand recognition.  I would bet a paycheck that they ran the numbers, reports and such and decided it was in their best interest to change course. Now if you see Trump getting involved with a tweet, then it would be politics.

I'm talking money. They were getting hit in the wallet.  Money forced the change.

[El Barto]

I am not naïve enough to to think that this name change is caused by a "tiny percent of Indians" or "a lot of bleeding hearts" as much one other motivation - money.  Look what FedEx and Amazon have done along with other major companies. They had no other choice other than keeping the name and watching their brand sink.

If little Danny Snyder woke up and had an epiphany, it was his accountants bending over him telling him how much money the organization was about to lose.

It was "a whole lot" of bleeding hearts, and they are the ones responsible. The only people who care least of all about this are FedEX and Amazon. It's nothing to them, and nor should it be. Those bleeding hearts who are outraged on behalf of the Indians add up, though, and FedEX is damn sure afraid of them.

If FedEx didn't care then why did they ask the organization to change the name of the stadium  that has their name on it? And why was Amazon going to stop selling jerseys and paraphernalia?

I'm not surer if you know this but "the whole lot of bleeding hearts" have been trying to get the name changed for decades, always falling on deaf ears with little Danny Snyder saying "over my dead body". Maybe we should check to see if he's still alive?

Look, we're mostly in agreement here. You said money and of course you're correct. The difference is that the bleeding hearts actually care about the cause, misguided though they may be. They're offended by it, for some reason. Corporations don't care about anything other than shareholder profits. To that end they're making the move the public demands. It's strictly a business decision, based on the fact that an increasing number of people do seem to care about it. If the climate isn't such as it is today, FedEX and Amazon would be just as happy to ignore the thing. Let's also keep in mind that Amazon stands to make a minor fortune from this. Lil Danny gets stuck with the massive expense of this name change* while Amazon sells out of all of the old, now collectable, logo stuff, and then sells several metric shit-tons of new logo stuff.

*Think of how many things will have to be redone. Every single thing in that stadium has the logo on it. The beer cups. The trash cans. The napkins. The menus. The coolers the hawkers carry around. All of the signage. The ticket stock. All of the online stuff. Company letterhead. I'll bet Lil Danny's G-IV has a Redskins livery. The carpet in the locker room, not to mention the lockers themselves. Five years from now they'll still be finding Redskins logos in places nobody ever thought to look.

[pg1067]

I am not naïve enough to to think that this name change is caused by a "tiny percent of Indians" or "a lot of bleeding hearts" as much one other motivation - money.  Look what FedEx and Amazon have done along with other major companies. They had no other choice other than keeping the name and watching their brand sink.

If little Danny Snyder woke up and had an epiphany, it was his accountants bending over him telling him how much money the organization was about to lose.

It was "a whole lot" of bleeding hearts, and they are the ones responsible. The only people who care least of all about this are FedEX and Amazon. It's nothing to them, and nor should it be. Those bleeding hearts who are outraged on behalf of the Indians add up, though, and FedEX is damn sure afraid of them.

If FedEx didn't care then why did they ask the organization to change the name of the stadium  that has their name on it? And why was Amazon going to stop selling jerseys and paraphernalia?

I'm not surer if you know this but "the whole lot of bleeding hearts" have been trying to get the name changed for decades, always falling on deaf ears with little Danny Snyder saying "over my dead body". Maybe we should check to see if he's still alive?

Fedex doesn't care about the name of the team or how any person or group of people feel about the name.  Fedex cares about money, and the "bleeding hearts" got sufficiently organized that Fedex became concerned about an impact on its bottom line.  THAT is why Fedex put pressure on Snyder.

Also, FYI, the folks who have been seeking to have the name changed have been doing so a lot longer than Dan Snyder's 1999 acquisition of the franchise.  The Cooke family didn't give any more fucks than does Snyder.

Let's also keep in mind that Amazon stands to make a minor fortune from this. Lil Danny gets stuck with the massive expense of this name change* while Amazon sells out of all of the old, now collectable, logo stuff, and then sells several metric shit-tons of new logo stuff.

To say nothing of marking UP the prices on the old stuff because it's "vintage."

[Ben_Jamin]

Huh... I had no idea that most Indians aren't offended by the Redskins name. I figured most would at least think "yeah, it's degrading, but I've got bigger fish to fry." I still think it's one of those things that needed to change, but it's a shame that it was clearly about the money and not about being decent to the people who were here before us.

It is what you exactly said. We understand it's a term that was used in a derogatory way. It all comes down to, it's just a Football game in the end, and doing this won't make a dent.

Now contrast this move to what the Supreme Court ruled in Oklahoma. That is way way bigger and more important to celebrate and has a much long lasting impact than a name.

[Ben_Jamin]

It's ironic though, many natives here in New Mexico like the Dallas Cowboys.

[DragonAttack]

Ok, a better source

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/02/04/native-mascots-survey/

I wrote back on July 6th in regards to this topic.  I included a caveat.  So, from all this, I'm grouped into the 'bleeding heart liberal' category as well

To think that Snyder will make a lot more $$$$$$$$ by the end of this.  The first time his franchise has had any relevancy since Griffin hurt his knee. 

[hunnus2000]

It's ironic though, many natives here in New Mexico like the Dallas Cowboys.

Ironic? I think it makes sense when you consider the history of Cowboys. (And I'm not talking about the football team)

[Stadler]

Washington Gerrymanderers'

Nicely done.   That's classic. 

[Stadler]

Ok, a better source

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/02/04/native-mascots-survey/

I wrote back on July 6th in regards to this topic.  I included a caveat.  So, from all this, I'm grouped into the 'bleeding heart liberal' category as well

To think that Snyder will make a lot more $$$$$$$$ by the end of this.  The first time his franchise has had any relevancy since Griffin hurt his knee.

Look, I'm parked firmly with El Barto on this; I think he's got it 100% correct, and I (I think he said) couldn't give a rat's ass either way as to whether they change anything (Daniel Snyder is still there, ergo, they're still going to suck), but I read the article here, and this is key:

"Of those polled for the study, 57% who strongly identify with being Native American and 67% of those who frequently engage in tribal cultural practices were found to be deeply insulted by caricatures of Native American culture."

This assumes that ALL of those people agree that the use of the Redskins name and logo is, in fact, a "caricature of Native American culture".  This is the very definition of "begging the question".   I think it's foolish to try to put numbers on this; I know I live close to two Indian reservations, and know a couple people well-placed in their governmental organization.  One, a friend from college is a senior official in one of the organizations (which runs a large casino in I think three states).  I remember being in a conversation with him on this and when asked if it bothered him he answered something to the effect of "as long as people bet on the team, I don't care what the name is."  He was, of course, joking, but I think this is a big issue for a small number of people.  I can't imagine even one mind being changed by this.   

[Chino]

The Redskins should have kept their name the same and just changed their logo to a potato.

[pg1067]

The Redskins should have kept their name the same and just changed their logo to a potato.

That's a win!

[El Barto]

To think that Snyder will make a lot more $$$$$$$$ by the end of this.  The first time his franchise has had any relevancy since Griffin hurt his knee.

Snyder is going to take a bath on this. As I pointed out yesterday, the cost of changing the thing over will be massive. And more importantly, the people who are up in arms about the team name don't give a shit about football. When Washington next take the field all of the bleeding hearts will be out picketing Arbys or something, and definitely not watching the game. He'll get zero new fans out of this, and he'll probably lose a few Trumpers. The talking heads will make a big deal out of it their first home game, but that won't get him anything.

I wonder what will happen the first time somebody wears their vintage Art Monk jersey to a game. Will he be denied entry? Pelted with beer and popcorn? Forced to turn his jersey inside out?

[hunnus2000]

To think that Snyder will make a lot more $$$$$$$$ by the end of this.  The first time his franchise has had any relevancy since Griffin hurt his knee.

Snyder is going to take a bath on this. As I pointed out yesterday, the cost of changing the thing over will be massive. And more importantly, the people who are up in arms about the team name don't give a shit about football. When Washington next take the field all of the bleeding hearts will be out picketing Arbys or something, and definitely not watching the game. He'll get zero new fans out of this, and he'll probably lose a few Trumpers. The talking heads will make a big deal out of it their first home game, but that won't get him anything.

I wonder what will happen the first time somebody wears their vintage Art Monk jersey to a game. Will he be denied entry? Pelted with beer and popcorn? Forced to turn his jersey inside out?

And I will say again, this has nothing to do with the "bleeding hearts" effecting change.

[Dublagent66]

Ok, a better source

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/02/04/native-mascots-survey/

I wrote back on July 6th in regards to this topic.  I included a caveat.  So, from all this, I'm grouped into the 'bleeding heart liberal' category as well

To think that Snyder will make a lot more $$$$$$$$ by the end of this.  The first time his franchise has had any relevancy since Griffin hurt his knee.

Look, I'm parked firmly with El Barto on this; I think he's got it 100% correct, and I (I think he said) couldn't give a rat's ass either way as to whether they change anything (Daniel Snyder is still there, ergo, they're still going to suck), but I read the article here, and this is key:

"Of those polled for the study, 57% who strongly identify with being Native American and 67% of those who frequently engage in tribal cultural practices were found to be deeply insulted by caricatures of Native American culture."

This assumes that ALL of those people agree that the use of the Redskins name and logo is, in fact, a "caricature of Native American culture".  This is the very definition of "begging the question".   I think it's foolish to try to put numbers on this; I know I live close to two Indian reservations, and know a couple people well-placed in their governmental organization.  One, a friend from college is a senior official in one of the organizations (which runs a large casino in I think three states).  I remember being in a conversation with him on this and when asked if it bothered him he answered something to the effect of "as long as people bet on the team, I don't care what the name is."  He was, of course, joking, but I think this is a big issue for a small number of people.  I can't imagine even one mind being changed by this.   

Agreed.  The majority just aren't buying into it.  Although, what Mike Huckabee said on Fox News yesterday was pretty funny.  "I don't care what the Redskins call themselves, as long as they lose to the Dallas Cowboys." 

[dparrott]

the evidence in those cases was fairly overwhelming that most American Indians didn't give much of a rip about the issue.  Of course, that's all 20+ year old information.

Yea well most people didn't let things bother them 20 years ago.  Now everyone's butthurt about somethin.

[Anguyen92]

The Redskins should have kept their name the same and just changed their logo to a potato.

I think it's been said already, but let's just rather call themselves the Red Potatoes and let their new mascot be a giant Red Potato with a face on it with stringy arms and legs coming out of it.

[Ben_Jamin]

Some Native Americans speak on what the Washington bRedskins & name mean to them

https://www.facebook.com/113407830067537/posts/298966071511711/

[TAC]

That's interesting.

[hunnus2000]

I think Washington should change their name to the Washington Wind Talkers. That should allow them to keep their logo.

[El Barto]

I think Washington should change their name to the Washington Wind Talkers. That should allow them to keep their logo.

As would the Warriors. That seems like the obvious choice to me. The injun on their logo is a pretty dignified guy. I'd certainly be trying to salvage that.

[Ben_Jamin]

I think Washington should change their name to the Washington Wind Talkers. That should allow them to keep their logo.

As would the Warriors. That seems like the obvious choice to me. The injun on their logo is a pretty dignified guy. I'd certainly be trying to salvage that.

Can you believe they are also upset about the logo. I literally Facepalmed when someone I know, who is an active native activist, mentioned that.

She also confirmed, it's mainly the younger generation that are upset. That shows a lot to me, because we are told to listen and respect our elders. Many, would likely agree, it's just a blip in the larger war.

The Wind Talkers is a great one, and I'd rather prefer that if they want to also, show military respect. This shows how Natives were vastly important during Americas fight in WWII.

[hunnus2000]

I think Washington should change their name to the Washington Wind Talkers. That should allow them to keep their logo.

As would the Warriors. That seems like the obvious choice to me. The injun on their logo is a pretty dignified guy. I'd certainly be trying to salvage that.

Can you believe they are also upset about the logo. I literally Facepalmed when someone I know, who is an active native activist, mentioned that.

She also confirmed, it's mainly the younger generation that are upset. That shows a lot to me, because we are told to listen and respect our elders. Many, would likely agree, it's just a blip in the larger war.

The Wind Talkers is a great one, and I'd rather prefer that if they want to also, show military respect. This shows how Natives were vastly important during Americas fight in WWII.

Well, I don't have a problem with the logo but I do think it's in Washington's best interest to get this right THE FIRST TIME so I think going with the Warriors is not a good idea, even though I have no problem with it. Little Danny Snyder has run that franchise into the ground and naming them the Warriors would seem like a half assed attempt to appease those that are offended. Going with Wind Talkers, would be a slam dunk. No one would argue and it would give no one pause to challenge it which is what little Danny Snyder needs right now. Why?

Because word on the street has it that there's shit coming down that implicates Washington and little Danny Snyder in some scandal that it could cause the NFL to take his franchise away from him.

[hefdaddy42]

There is.  Sexual harassment.