2020 NFL Thread v. Tom Brady aging better than Mila Kunis

[Stadler]

I sort of am having trouble with the "guys around him" idea.   Kelly was blessed with Thurman Munson Thomas, and Andre Reed his entire career.   Rivers had LaDainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates.  Marino had Marks Clayton and Duper (I can't remember who his back was).

Among the luminaries who lined up in the backfield with Marino were Tony Nathan, Audra Franklin, Ron Davenport, Woody Bennett, Kenny Rogers, Garrett Limbrick, Sammie Smith, Bernie "Nobody Doesn't Like" Parmalee, Irving Spikes, James "Denim and Leather" Saxon, Keith Byars, Karim Abdul-Jabbar and Cecil Collins.  Seriously, I couldn't find anyone more notable.  And, while the Marks were good, the wide receiver list is only slightly more notable (an aging Nat Moore for a few years and O.J. McDuffie in the later years).

Brady?   He had Curtis Martin for two years.  He had Randy Moss for three.   I think that's the thing that separates Brady from the pack; with the exception of Gronk, he has no Jerry Rice.  He has no Thurman Munson.  He has no Marvin Harrison.   He's cycled, arguably, through at least four cycles of players, and STILL achieved excellence.  STILL won. 

I'd put guys like Deion Branch, Troy Brown, et al. on the same level as Duper and Clayton, and at least Brady had guys like Martin and Corey Dillon and Kevin Faulk.  Brady also had guys like Wes Welker, Julian Edelman and Danny Amendola.  At least there's an argument that Edelman is an HOF'er.

But I'm not sure why Brady's name got brought up.  No one's comparing Marino to Brady.  I thought the discussion was whether Philip Rivers was in the same class as Jim Kelly and Dan Marino.

He was brought up because the elephant in the room with all three - Marino, Kelly, and Rivers - is that they have five Super Bowl appearances between them, and not one ring.   The argument at some point goes to "look at all the weapons [insert Super Bowl winner] had, and I was simply trying to make the point that weapons aren't the be all and end all.  There IS a component that some big time athletes have that they have a knack for winning, regardless of what the circumstances are around them.

[Stadler]

I've been a big Edelman fan since I watched him play on O, D, and ST, and make a key stop on Anquon Bolden late in the AFC championship game. I think he was cut each of the next two years and resigned, before eventually becoming invaluable. Dude's the textbook Patriots player. He can do everything, and he's always clutch. He's not a Hall of Famer, though.

And the question then becomes, how much did TOM BRADY have to do with that blossoming into a text book player?  I've played enough sports (hockey up into college, baseball/softball up through returning to CT about six years ago) to know that you take one person out of a mix - even if it is a team sport - and drop someone else in with equivalent stats and you do NOT have an equivalent team.  Read any biography of Joe DiMaggio, and his teammates will tell you that he was a dick, he was not a friend, and he was as odd as the number 13, but we wouldn't have won nearly as many games if it wasn't for him, even when he was hurt and HIS numbers weren't great.  He had a way of making the people around him play out of their skin.   The 40's, 50's and even the early 60's Yankees were CHOCK FULL of guys like Edelman; prolly don't deserve the HoF but they did what they had to do when they had to do it.   

I've said this about bands, too.  This is why Mick Jagger's solo records blow chunks, and yet, in the Stones, he's written some of the most iconic songs in the history of modern rock.

[KevShmev]

IMO, being just a key player on a dynasty isn't enough to get in the Hall, otherwise Jay Novacek would be in the Hall, and he actually made pro bowls (5) and was All-Pro twice (1st team once, 2nd team once).   The next pro bowl Julian Edelman makes will be his first.  And it's not making the pro bowl is some great achievement now, as everybody makes it now since tons of guys drop out every year and 5th and 6th alternates end up making it, and yet Edelman has still never made it once.  I know, I know, stats are trash and who cares about the regular season, right?  Let's put David Tyree in while we're at it.

[King Postwhore]

Maybe it's his position that those who vote shuns apon.  Is there a slot receiver in the HOF?

[ProfessorPeart]

Speaking on the updated thread title, much respect to Philly Riv. He's one of those players that I just loved watching. I would go out of my way to catch the Chargers/Broncos games when it was Rivers vs. Cutler. Rivers just loved going at him with everything he had. Not to mention he was the king of clean trash talking. Much respect to him. Sad to see a guy I regularly leaned on in my fantasy days leave.

[Stadler]

IMO, being just a key player on a dynasty isn't enough to get in the Hall, otherwise Jay Novacek would be in the Hall, and he actually made pro bowls (5) and was All-Pro twice (1st team once, 2nd team once).   The next pro bowl Julian Edelman makes will be his first.  And it's not making the pro bowl is some great achievement now, as everybody makes it now since tons of guys drop out every year and 5th and 6th alternates end up making it, and yet Edelman has still never made it once.  I know, I know, stats are trash and who cares about the regular season, right?  Let's put David Tyree in while we're at it.

Two things:  one, the Pro Bowl is to recognize those players that aren't going deep into February with meaningful games.  I'm sure the vast majority of players, if given the choice to play in their Pro Bowls, or Edelman's Super Bowls, they're taking the latter.  Two, Tyree did it one play in one game.  Edelman has one or two a game, for several games a year for multiple years.  I STILL don't think he's in the Hall, but let's not underplay his accomplishments.

[KevShmev]

Two things:  one, the Pro Bowl is to recognize those players that aren't going deep into February with meaningful games.  I'm sure the vast majority of players, if given the choice to play in their Pro Bowls, or Edelman's Super Bowls, they're taking the latter.  Two, Tyree did it one play in one game.  Edelman has one or two a game, for several games a year for multiple years.  I STILL don't think he's in the Hall, but let's not underplay his accomplishments.

I'm not so sure about that.  Pro Bowls can mean more recognition and a bigger contract, rather than being a good role player on a Super Bowl-winning team might, and I would submit that, over the long haul, the vast majority of players will always take a lot more money over rings.

[TAC]

Calling Edelman a "role player" is disingenuous.

[KevShmev]

How so?  If you are not a star, you are essentially a role player, and that is what Edelman was. And he played the role very well, especially in the playoffs.  And I mean that as a compliment.  Heck, the Patriots were known for most of that dynasty for being a team absent of stars on offense except for Brady and Gronk, and of course Moss for a spell.  Wes Welker was for a while there as well.

[hefdaddy42]

Calling Edelman a "role player" is disingenuous.

No, it's accurate.

[King Postwhore]

He was the #1 reciever on the team for 6 years so for us Pats fans,  we don't look at him as a role player.  That is for the most part, catches, yards. 

[King Postwhore]

Gronkowski helped with that no doubt.

[hunnus2000]

So I guess Mahomes is a go for this weekend.

Was there any doubt? 

[KevShmev]

He was the #1 reciever on the team for 6 years so for us Pats fans,  we don't look at him as a role player.  That is for the most part, catches, yards.

Okay, but you can be a "team-name star,' while not being a star of the league at the same time.  I will go back to the Jay Novacek example.  As much as everyone remembers the triplets of that Cowboys dynasty, Novacek was a star in that offense at the time as well, but that didn't make him an NFL star or a Hall of Famer.  Therein lies the distinction.  Sorry, but if you are the number 1 receiver in an offense for six years and averaged less than 1,000 yards a season and not even 6 touchdown catches a season, you are not a star.  Stats do matter sometimes.

[Dream Team]

So I guess Mahomes is a go for this weekend.

Was there any doubt? 

Well for one thing for those that somehow missed this, he didn’t actually HAVE a concussion. But once you get put in the protocol you still have to go through the steps.

[King Postwhore]

He was the #1 reciever on the team for 6 years so for us Pats fans,  we don't look at him as a role player.  That is for the most part, catches, yards.

Okay, but you can be a "team-name star,' while not being a star of the league at the same time.  I will go back to the Jay Novacek example.  As much as everyone remembers the triplets of that Cowboys dynasty, Novacek was a star in that offense at the time as well, but that didn't make him an NFL star or a Hall of Famer.  Therein lies the distinction.  Sorry, but if you are the number 1 receiver in an offense for six years and averaged less than 1,000 yards a season and not even 6 touchdown catches a season, you are not a star.  Stats do matter sometimes.

Right so the use of the word "role player" seems to lesson what he accomplished.  Roll player to most is a "bit player"  he was more than that to the Pats.   

[KevShmev]

Right so the use of the word "role player" seems to lesson what he accomplished.  Roll player to most is a "bit player"  he was more than that to the Pats.

I get it, but that still doesn't make him a star.  Plenty of players are more to their team than meets the eye.  And hey, I get defending the guys on your team that helped you win.  23 years ago, I would have been beating that drum for Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey, both of whom were integral to the Broncos winning back to back championships, but they weren't Hall of Famers.

[King Postwhore]

Totally understand.   I still look at Edelman as better than McCaffrey.  Ed had 1 season over 100 receptions and second highest is 71.  His arch is smaller than the 6 year arch of Julian. Julian has 4 years of 6 over 92 receptions and his playoff stats put him higher than a bit player.

[TAC]

Trollshmoll

[KevShmev]

Totally understand.   I still look at Edelman as better than McCaffrey.  Ed had 1 season over 100 receptions and second highest is 71.  His arch is smaller than the 6 year arch of Julian. Julian has 4 years of 6 over 92 receptions and his playoff stats put him higher than a bit player.

I can't say one was better than the other, because for one, they played totally different styles and were very different players.  Edelman plays in an era where you can't touch a WR and plays out of the slot and catches tons of balls close to the line of scrimmage, while McCaffrey played in the Shanahan style of the West Coast offense which emphasized running the ball and taking deep shots when they did throw.  The Broncos from 1995-1998 were not a team throwing short passes to the WR's or Shannon Sharpe.  When they threw it to those guys, they were looking for chunk plays.  And while McCaffrey wasn't the beast that Rod Smith was in the running game when it came to blocking (Rod Smith is the best blocking WR I have ever seen), he was still pretty darn good.  That Broncos offense was a well oiled machine.

Also, it is worth noting that McCaffrey did make a pro bowl and was All-Pro 2nd team once (two things Edelman has never achieved).  Just saying...

[KevShmev]

Also, and I have been beating this drum for a long time, so it has nada to do with Edelman, catches is the most overrated stat in football. Nowadays, everybody catches a ton of balls.  Case in point: Jason Witten, probably the most overrated skill position player of my NFL watching lifetime, is 4th all time in catches. BFD. 

[King Postwhore]

Edelman never took a hit?  Dude. Come on.

You want to blame receivers not being touched blame Polian after we ruffed up his dainty receivers in 2004.  Lol

Also, and I have been beating this drum for a long time, so it has nada to do with Edelman, catches is the most overrated stat in football. Nowadays, everybody catches a ton of balls.  Case in point: Jason Witten, probably the most overrated skill position player of my NFL watching lifetime, is 4th all time in catches. BFD. 

If you can't see the huge catches in the biggest of games for Edelman over Witten's regular season games then I can't help you.  The man is beyond clutch in multiple Superbowls. 

[TAC]

He's beyond clutch, period.

[KevShmev]

Edelman never took a hit?  Dude. Come on.

I never said that.

You want to blame receivers not being touched blame Polian after we ruffed up his dainty receivers in 2004.  Lol

Agreed.

If you can't see the huge catches in the biggest of games for Edelman over Witten's regular season games then I can't help you. The man is beyond clutch in multiple Superbowls.

That's not what I was saying or even suggesting. I think your fandom is causing you to think I am making arguments that I am not, sir.

[King Postwhore]

I agree he is probably not HOF material.   

I'm banging the gong on the "Role" title. Players can be more but just shy of HOF material. 

His playoff play absolutely hells but still.....


Besides, Mccaffery?  How dare you.

[KevShmev]

Getting back to Rivers and the HoF, I have seen/read some good arguments for and against him this week in regards to the Hall, and I came away thinking I could see totally see both points of view.  If he gets in, I am good with it.  If he doesn't, I will understand why.  It's a tough call. 

I will add this, though: many seem to think Frank Gore is now a HoF lock because of his overall rushing yardage total (biggest compiler ever, due to being so durable), and if Gore gets in, then Rivers has to get in as well, because IMO, Rivers was a better QB than Gore was a RB. 

[King Postwhore]

Rivers is a weird one.  He's borderline for me and leaning towards the not getting in side.  Though tough as nails, gritty.  Things I love in players.

[hunnus2000]

The great Peter King thinks Rivers is HOF worthy but the problem he'll run into is the 5 years from now is he'll be eligible at the same time Drew Brees is eligible and then after that he'll have to deal with Tom Brady so he may have to wait awhile.

I just seem to remember Rivers as a guy that did well during the regular season but fell far short during post-season, kind of like this past season for the Colts.

[KevShmev]

Nah, Brady is a cyborg and won't retire till probably 2035, so Rivers shouldn't have to worry about him in that regard.

[axeman90210]

If Eli gets in then I think Rivers needs to. I don't think Eli deserves to get in, but Rivers has a better case.

[bosk1]

Gore vs. Rivers:  I disagree with the comparison.  And, yes, that is a bit of my fandom speaking.  But that aside, I think if you make top 3 all time in the primary thing your position is designed to accomplish (in Gore's case, pick up yards on the ground), I think that puts you in, pretty much regardless of anything else. 

Eli vs. Rivers:  I don't think either should get in.  But Eli getting in shouldn't really impact whether Rivers gets in either.  I'm going to speak out of both sides of my mouth for a minute here, but...while I don't think "winning the big one" should be the be-all stat, it does count for something.  And while I don't think Eli is HOF material, if others feel he is close, and that the wins push him over the top, I cannot overly disagree.  They do count for something, especially for a guy who, despite his shortcomings, was the leader of his team for those two wins, and who had to battle for those wins (it wasn't a case where the talent in their conference was severely lacking and they had a cakewalk through the playoffs the years they won it). 

In any case, while I don't have strong feelings one way or the other (I don't have strong feelings about the HOF in general), my opinion is that Rivers doesn't quite make the cut, despite having a great career and being a great leader on his teams.

*Edit:  I'll also chime in to back TAC and King on Edelman being more than what we typically refer to as a "role player."  I agree with the general sentiment that he is not HOF material, but his contribution being sold short by relegating him to "role player" status.  I mean, I get that maybe he "technically" fits that description.  But when I think of that description, it generally isn't used to describe someone who has a sustained role as one of a team's key players.

[hunnus2000]

A comment about the HOF - I really think it's overkill to hold a yearly vote and that they should consider maybe installing players every other year. That way, it would make the HOF that much more special.

The fact the Drew Pearson is still not in and that Lynn Swann was inducted is a travesty that hopefully will be fixed this year. 

[lordxizor]

Honestly I think if a player is not a consensus first ballot inductee, they're probably not good enough to get in. I think it should be reserved for that caliber of player.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Honestly I think if a player is not a consensus first ballot inductee, they're probably not good enough to get in. I think it should be reserved for that caliber of player.

I think there’s a flaw in this thinking. The way the Hall of Fame induction process works is that no less than four or no more than eight players can get in every year. This could lead to situations where a deserving player has to wait (say what you want about his attitude, but based off of his actual playing career Terrell Owens deserved to go in his first year of eligibility) or a scenario where a less deserving player gets in due to being from an era with less great players who retired around the same time as him (Lynn Swann comes to mind). The NFL should take a cue from the MLB, where as many or few players can get in as the voting committee pleases (in 2016 only two players made it in: Ken Griffey Jr. and Mike Piazza). This would lead to less players getting snubbed for being part of a strong retirement class and less examples of non-deserving players getting in.

[DragonAttack]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pro_Football_Hall_of_Fame_inductees

Add six years from their last season to induction for those who made it on their first ballot.

Otto Graham, Kellen Winslow, Doak Walker, Bob Griese, Ted Hendricks, Paul Hornung, Crazy Legs Hirsch, Doug Atkins, Lem Barney, Buck Buchanon, Curley Culp (I'm just cherry picking here).....and dozens more, not in on the first ballot.  I cannot think of one from watching or reading about that is undeserving.

And, how are Jerry Jones and Al Davis in, but not Art Modell? Oh, that's right......'politics' and power of those who get to pick. 

The yearly limitations don't make sense to me.  Also, do remember that when a Canton newspaper came up with the idea of hosting the site, there were only twelve NFL teams.  By the time their proposal was accepted and then the building opened in '63, there were fourteen.  And most did not consider the AFL as a professional league.