2020 NFL Thread v. Tom Brady aging better than Mila Kunis

[dparrott]

Rams did it!!!       Defense is really stepping up lately.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Man, seeing how the Rams have played their last few possessions, it's astonishing to think this is the same team that somehow scored 24 points in the same game.

They got screwed badly on the play where Brady was hit in the end zone and fumbled. Refs blew it dead right away.

But dumb ass Goff just threw an awful pick and now it is tied.  Hard to take the Rams seriously as a top contender when that clown is their QB.

Clown???  LMFAO...  Both of Jarod's picks were not his fault.  #1... Henderson, instead of turning to get the ball he cut to the outside, leaving the spot where Goff delivered it.  #2 was PI where the defender was on Robert Woods back driving him to the ground.  Oh, and the fumble was on the Blythe.  I'll take that "Clown" over half the QB's in the league.


C/ATT   YDS   AVG   TD   INT   SACKS   QBR   RTG
Jared Goff   39/51   376   7.4   3   2   0-0   85.4   99.8

And that's with NO running game.  The Bucs dared the Rams to beat them with Jarod, and they did.  Also....  39 completions, one shy of the MNF record of 40.

[black_biff_stadler]

Y'all remember in 2017 when the majority of NFL pundits were anointing Wentz as the bonafide next D00D up?

I mean he was great in 2017. I don't know what the point of this is other than to say that time, injuries, and having a worse team overall generally don't bear well for any athletes.

The point was that it's dumb to crown someone that quickly. The only reason I'm on the Mahomes train (TOOT TOOT!!!) is because the dude has done nothing more than produce and win every step of the way and probably has accomplished more in his first 41 games than anyone else to ever play the game. Aside from his absurd career averages I cited in my earlier post, he's 33-8 which is the equivalent of winning 12.9 games per season. The title of Next D00D Up is unquestionably his until he proves us wrong imo.

Edit: After rereading your post I now realize when you said "the point" you might have been referring to what the point was for why you said what you did. My reply was clarifying what my point was with the Wentz comment cuz my initial reading of your reply made me think you were asking what the point of my comment was.

[Skeever]

I'm just kind of curious what "next dude up" means. there are plenty of players in this league who are great for two or three years and then fall off that's just how it goes. It's a team sport, and there difference in talent between players can be far more marginal than people give credit for. That's why a player can be great one year, and when they come back from a couple injuries only 90% of their former selves, they become atrocious. I think Carson Wentz can still be a starter in this league and he deserved nearly all the praise he got in 2017, but he has to start playing smarter. The entire rest of the eagles offense is second, third and fourth stringers at this point. Sure, a great quarterback could overcome this and make something happen, But Wentz merely breaking even in this situation is a testament to the fact that he is not as bad as many people are saying right now. if the eagles foolishly bench him and try to move him to another team he will be a serviceable starter somewhere else next year.

As far as Tom Brady goes, I don't remember anybody ever saying that he would be the next Tom Brady. Seems ridiculous to set Tom Brady as the standard for being considered a hype-worthy player.

[Stadler]

I'm still of the "cool it" on Mahomes bandwagon.

The dude's career stats extrapolated for a 16-game season are 4858 yards, 40 TD, and 8 INT with 66.4% completion percentage. He already has a ring, the second best statistical season ever for a QB, a regular season as well as Super Bowl MVP, basically had a SB appearance stolen from him by a teammate making a dumb penalty, and his team is 9-1 this year. Anyone sleeping on him with that body of work probably wouldn't give him credit if he cured cancer and solved world hunger.

Well, Stadler is a Brady fan, and many Brady fans (not all, but many) are weird about giving any other QB too much props. They did it with Peyton Manning, they moved over to Aaron Rodgers once Peyton retired, and now Mahomes is the target I guess.

Not really. It's not Brady; well, it's not JUST Brady.  On both sides of the ball I've had 40 years of hearing about the next greatest.   I'm from the Tri-state area, and I grew up with Parcell's "annointing" attitude (i.e. mocking it).   I've been clear; what he's done is amazing.   I just think people are still overboard on him.   To listen to the announcers, it's ridiculous.   I'm not looking for that level of praise of ANYONE, even Brady. I just like it when guys string together a career.   I've also been clear that if he does it, I'm more than willing to give props where props are due.  I just have two main criteria for athletes:   WIN, and SUSTAINED EXCELLENCE.  He's got one now, and we're working on the rest.

(And you're dead wrong on Manning and Rodgers, at least with me.   My only knock - unfounded now - on Manning was Super Bowls, and my knock on Rodgers isn't Rodgers, but on his team.)

[TheCountOfNYC]

I understand the idea of not wanting to anoint the next GOAT so early into their career, as a lot of quarterbacks have lit up the league in their first couple of seasons, only to be figured out by defenses and have turn into an average player. For me though, Mahomes feels different. He adapts to his opponent, not relying solely on his physical gifts but also leaning on a strong game plan and the talent around him to achieve success.

[Stadler]

I understand the idea of not wanting to anoint the next GOAT so early into their career, as a lot of quarterbacks have lit up the league in their first couple of seasons, only to be figured out by defenses and have turn into an average player. For me though, Mahomes feels different. He adapts to his opponent, not relying solely on his physical gifts but also leaning on a strong game plan and the talent around him to achieve success.

And we'll see the first time he CAN'T rely on his "physical gifts".   Peyton Manning is one of my favorite QBs in history now, because of that last Super Bowl.   I thought he WILLED that win and that to me is far more impressive than a twirling back flip off the wrong foot sideways shovel pass to Kelce for a TD.  It's fun to look at, sure, but admire it while you can. 

Ben is another one.  Does what he has to do. It's what I liked about Teddy Bridgewater when he filled in for Drew Brees.   It's what Cam - yes, I'm going to compliment him a little bit - is, I think, trying to do but just can't seem to get out of his own way. 

[Dream Team]

It was nice to see the refs resisting the chance to bail his old ass out one more time.

I think it’s pretty clear the NFL badly wants a KC-TB Super Bowl. It’s not exactly a secret. How many games in a row is TB on prime time?

[black_biff_stadler]

It was nice to see the refs resisting the chance to bail his old ass out one more time.

I think it’s pretty clear the NFL badly wants a KC-TB Super Bowl. It’s not exactly a secret. How many games in a row is TB on prime time?

Seems that way. And if they can't get TB in there then GB is a damn close second and if the dump truck full of bullshit flags we've seen thrown against GB's opponents the last 2 or 3 years (Lions game on MNF, anyone?) is anything to go on, I'd bet my life savings and take out loans for even more betting money that they'll do it to their opponents in the playoffs as well, especially the Saints.

[Skeever]

I think the secret to success is pretty simple, really. And has much less to do with superstar QB's than the following: does the team have a good coach? If a team has a coach and a QB, they'll be competitive more often than not.

Putting two all-timers - Brady and Belichick - on the same team created a force that dominated the league for over a decade. Then think of the other less - but still solid - QB/coach duos that have had prolonged success: Roethlisberger and Tomlin, Wilson and Carroll, and what Haurbaugh has gotten out of Flacco (who was, at least, break-even) and Jackson (who is very good). Payton and Brees. All these teams are competitive, year after year. Sure, they have some down years, sometimes several in a row, but that's just the nature of football. The only times the Lions were ever close to good for more than a few years in a row, Stafford had Caldwell. 

Looking forward, KC have a coach and a QB. Unless Mahomes gets severely injured, they'll be competitive for years to come, even if Mahomes doesn't reach the same heights of his first few years (which, I agree with Floyd, are enough to consider him a great player that we'll think about for the basis of those years alone decades from now). The Texans have a QB, but they don't have a coach. With Peterson and Wentz, it's unclear if they have a good coach and a good QB - perhaps both guys are barely good enough to succeed at their best - but unbelievably, Peterson's Eagles have been competitive every year. The Eagles would be foolish to abandon ship on either mid-season.

If you don't believe this theory, that a superstar QB will not have success without a good coach, then I invite you to participate in a simple thought exercise: imagine any starting current starting QB in the league having success playing under Adam Gase for the New York Jets. It is literally impossible to conceptualize.

[Dream Team]

For those of us who live in the real world and want to bask in Mahomes' unprecedented greatness, this is an excellent article at The Ringer:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/11/24/21612080/patrick-mahomes-michael-jordan-tom-brady-goat-debate

Get ready for some crazy stats.

[black_biff_stadler]

Imma read the article but I'm not a fan of how they drew him to look slightly hostile instead of how gregarious he usually looks plus the guy writing the article seems to think the Bulls beat the Pistons in the 1990 playoffs.

[black_biff_stadler]

Alright, I read about half of it but the writer misrepresents a lot of things so I'm not inclined to read further. Stuff like wording it "5 straight playoff games scoring 31 in regulation" makes it seem like he's disqualifying another team for having scored their 31st point in OT. Or stuff like using Lebron James not winning a title in his first 8 seasons against him in a comparison against Mahomes while Lebron was playing with G League supporting casts and Mahomes is surrounded by pro bowlers. Lastly, trying to use Mahomes being six weeks younger than Montana when each won their first titles as some kind of angle to further his agenda is just ridiculous. Does that actually mean Mahomes did so in an earlier season? Nope. Both did so in their third season. He's literally using where Mahomes' birthday falls on the calendar to argue his superiority over someone else. Mahomes' resume is way too good for any writer to need to resort to exaggeration and twisting of data to make their point and this guy just can't seem to help himself.

[bosk1]

Dumb article.  Anyhow, how 'bout dem Saints?  With the '9ers all but out of it, this may be the year I root for Brees to win a second.

[splent]

I think Aaron Rodgers wins his third MVP

[black_biff_stadler]

I'm trying to keep my Saints excitement tempered until the end of the season since there are three other NFC teams who I'm terrified of the refs tampering on behalf of in order to advance the league's agenda: GB, TB, and LAR. The Wizard behind the curtain was exposed when GB got four fraudulent 4th quarter flags against the Lions on MNF last season and each one occurred on possession-changing downs. The L.A. agenda was completely exposed in the 2018 NFC CG. And TB has been getting possession-saving flags a lot this year on third down.

Goodell despises Payton so I expect a fuckover whenever the Saints play a darling franchise. Shit, even last season the wildcard game against MIN (a definite non-darling to NFL brass) ended on a pushoff that they refused to even review. You'd think with the PR nightmare that resulted from the 2018 NFC CG that the NFL would have at least an atom of CYA on their minds making them decide to make sure that if there's a questionable call on a game-deciding play against the team they fucked over more egregiously than any other team in its history that they'd review the play.

[Cool Chris]

I think it’s pretty clear the NFL badly wants a KC-TB Super Bowl. It’s not exactly a secret. How many games in a row is TB on prime time?

Does KC really have that much pull? Does the entire country want to see them in the SB? Genuinely curious. They have Mahomes, or course, but it is isn't a major market, they don't have any other big names, and their coach, while successful and likable, isn't exactly the most charismatic or interesting guy in the league.

[KevShmev]

Man, seeing how the Rams have played their last few possessions, it's astonishing to think this is the same team that somehow scored 24 points in the same game.

They got screwed badly on the play where Brady was hit in the end zone and fumbled. Refs blew it dead right away.

But dumb ass Goff just threw an awful pick and now it is tied.  Hard to take the Rams seriously as a top contender when that clown is their QB.

Clown???  LMFAO...  Both of Jarod's picks were not his fault.  #1... Henderson, instead of turning to get the ball he cut to the outside, leaving the spot where Goff delivered it.  #2 was PI where the defender was on Robert Woods back driving him to the ground.  Oh, and the fumble was on the Blythe.  I'll take that "Clown" over half the QB's in the league.


C/ATT   YDS   AVG   TD   INT   SACKS   QBR   RTG
Jared Goff   39/51   376   7.4   3   2   0-0   85.4   99.8

And that's with NO running game.  The Bucs dared the Rams to beat them with Jarod, and they did.  Also....  39 completions, one shy of the MNF record of 40.

Clown might have been a bit harsh on my part, but he's still not a QB I trust.  I think McVay coaches his butt off to get as much as he can out of the guy.  Shoot, on 3rd and 8 last night with under 2 to go, without a makeable FG attempt already guaranteed, McVay ran the ball.  I think that showed how much he doesn't trust Goff at times. 

[KevShmev]

I understand the idea of not wanting to anoint the next GOAT so early into their career, as a lot of quarterbacks have lit up the league in their first couple of seasons, only to be figured out by defenses and have turn into an average player. For me though, Mahomes feels different. He adapts to his opponent, not relying solely on his physical gifts but also leaning on a strong game plan and the talent around him to achieve success.

And we'll see the first time he CAN'T rely on his "physical gifts".   Peyton Manning is one of my favorite QBs in history now, because of that last Super Bowl.   I thought he WILLED that win and that to me is far more impressive than a twirling back flip off the wrong foot sideways shovel pass to Kelce for a TD.  It's fun to look at, sure, but admire it while you can. 

Ben is another one.  Does what he has to do. It's what I liked about Teddy Bridgewater when he filled in for Drew Brees.   It's what Cam - yes, I'm going to compliment him a little bit - is, I think, trying to do but just can't seem to get out of his own way.

I don't think Mahomes relies on his physical gifts as much as you think he does.  He could run around like Cam Newton if he wanted to, but he doesn't.  He could sling the ball down field 70 yards eight times a game if he wanted to ala Jeff George, but he doesn't.  He plays smart. 

[Skeever]

Yeah that's a really strange observation to make about Mahomes' cerebral game. I wonder why people will say that about a player like Mahomes or Watson years before they say it about a player like Wentz. 

Going back to my theory - the QB's job is to execute the strategy that the coach decides and often calls. The problem is not so much that there aren't enough athletes who can do this (though some are capable of overcompensating for bad strategy), but that coaching is an infinitely harder job, and most NFL head coaches simply don't have what it takes.

[TAC]

I understand the idea of not wanting to anoint the next GOAT so early into their career, as a lot of quarterbacks have lit up the league in their first couple of seasons, only to be figured out by defenses and have turn into an average player. For me though, Mahomes feels different. He adapts to his opponent, not relying solely on his physical gifts but also leaning on a strong game plan and the talent around him to achieve success.

And we'll see the first time he CAN'T rely on his "physical gifts".   Peyton Manning is one of my favorite QBs in history now, because of that last Super Bowl.   I thought he WILLED that win and that to me is far more impressive than a twirling back flip off the wrong foot sideways shovel pass to Kelce for a TD.  It's fun to look at, sure, but admire it while you can. 

Ben is another one.  Does what he has to do. It's what I liked about Teddy Bridgewater when he filled in for Drew Brees.   It's what Cam - yes, I'm going to compliment him a little bit - is, I think, trying to do but just can't seem to get out of his own way.

Stadler, I think you are selling Mahomes way short. He sees the field much better than you are giving him credit for.


And saying Ben does what he has to do... you're selling him short too.


Stadler, Greg Bedard was on Felger & Mazz today talking about all of the offensive rankings that the Pats were better than the Bucs. Interesting.

[black_biff_stadler]

Yeah that's a really strange observation to make about Mahomes' cerebral game. I wonder why people will say that about a player like Mahomes or Watson years before they say it about a player like Wentz.

What I'm about to say is solely in regard to the media and sports fans in general, not anyone in this thread who may have made comments about certain QBs relying on their athletic skills. I think there are still A LOT of people that either sincerely think black QBs lack the mental capacity to be a traditional QB or they don't even bother thinking about it and just choose to believe that they lack those skills. Basically the same bullshit that sent Warren Moon's ass to the CFL to "prove" himself despite the fact that he was probably at least a top 15 NFL QB right out of college, if not top 10.

[Skeever]

Totally agree with the above 

It's pretty funny too because I would put Watson and Mahomes among the smartest QBs in the league. Meanwhile shitty QBs of a more caucasian complexion get the title "game manager" when they suck, even though a lot of times, they're the ones who most seem to have absolutely nothing going on upstairs. Wouldn't that be the most important thing for a "game manager"?

[King Postwhore]

Boy did Houston waste Watson's early career.  That ownership needs to get their act together.

[Dream Team]

Wow Steelers get screwed again because another team is careless with protocols. Unbelievable.

[KevShmev]

It sucks for fans as well since that was the only game worth a damn on the slate tomorrow.

[El Barto]

It sucks for fans as well since that was the only game worth a damn on the slate tomorrow.

This. The other games will both suck terribly, and I don't see how it hurts Pitt. They'll get a few more practices and BAL likely won't. Since when is not playing a Thursday game a bad thing?

[Dream Team]

Hopefully some of you guys know of Mike Tanier, who's been the best and funniest football writer for a long time. This week's preview is amazing:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2020/walkthrough-all-buccaneers-are-brothers

So what I'm hoping for most Sunday (besides a Steeler win) is for Mahomes to go in dry on the Bucs and not stop until the clock reads 0:00, and then refuse to shake Brady's hand after. That would be epic, but it won't happen because Mahomes isn't an asshole.

[King Postwhore]

Hopefully some of you guys know of Mike Tanier, who's been the best and funniest football writer for a long time. This week's preview is amazing:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2020/walkthrough-all-buccaneers-are-brothers

So what I'm hoping for most Sunday (besides a Steeler win) is for Mahomes to go in dry on the Bucs and not stop until the clock reads 0:00, and then refuse to shake Brady's hand after. That would be epic, but it won't happen because Mahomes isn't an asshole.

This makes me giggle.  Brady is so in your head that you are rooting for a team that is the only team stopping you from having the #1 seed which is so damn important.

You should be rooting for Tampa.  Call me crazy....

[KevShmev]

Hopefully some of you guys know of Mike Tanier, who's been the best and funniest football writer for a long time. This week's preview is amazing:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2020/walkthrough-all-buccaneers-are-brothers

So what I'm hoping for most Sunday (besides a Steeler win) is for Mahomes to go in dry on the Bucs and not stop until the clock reads 0:00, and then refuse to shake Brady's hand after. That would be epic, but it won't happen because Mahomes isn't an asshole.

This makes me giggle.  Brady is so in your head that you are rooting for a team that is the only team stopping you from having the #1 seed which is so damn important.

You should be rooting for Tampa.  Call me crazy....

Exactly.  Granted, I get some Steelers fans feeling that way since Tom Brady made their team is personal whipping boy for most of his tenure in New England, but still, if you're a Steelers fan, how are you rooting for the Chiefs this weekend? This is one of the few games left on their schedule that they could realistically lose.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

Call me crazy, but I don't think today's games will be terrible just because the teams have terrible records. The only thing missing from the Texans/Lions game is any stakes. I'll watch any DeShaun Watson game that I can .

As for the late game. The winner leaves with first place of the absolutely wretched NFC East. But Alex Smith is a great story and if it's anywhere near as entertaining as last week's Dallas/Minnesota game, then we're in for a treat, records be damned.

[hunnus2000]

Call me crazy, but I don't think today's games will be terrible just because the teams have terrible records. The only thing missing from the Texans/Lions game is any stakes. I'll watch any DeShaun Watson game that I can .

As for the late game. The winner leaves with first place of the absolutely wretched NFC East. But Alex Smith is a great story and if it's anywhere near as entertaining as last week's Dallas/Minnesota game, then we're in for a treat, records be damned.

Your not crazy at all! Ya'll know I am a Cowboys fan but we have MUCHO respect for Alex Smith! What he went through to get to this point is unreal! The Boy is inspirational but I will always cringe every time he takes the field.

[KevShmev]

To touch a little more on the Steelers/Ravens thing a little more, the Steelers bitching about this need to shut their mouths and grasp a little perspective.  We are dealing with a pandemic and people are dying, and they are crying about having to wait a few extra days to play their football game for which they get paid millions of dollars. Cry me a freaking river.

[Stadler]

For those of us who live in the real world and want to bask in Mahomes' unprecedented greatness, this is an excellent article at The Ringer:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/11/24/21612080/patrick-mahomes-michael-jordan-tom-brady-goat-debate

Get ready for some crazy stats.

Apparently "real world" means something different to you. 

[Stadler]

Yeah that's a really strange observation to make about Mahomes' cerebral game. I wonder why people will say that about a player like Mahomes or Watson years before they say it about a player like Wentz. 

Going back to my theory - the QB's job is to execute the strategy that the coach decides and often calls. The problem is not so much that there aren't enough athletes who can do this (though some are capable of overcompensating for bad strategy), but that coaching is an infinitely harder job, and most NFL head coaches simply don't have what it takes.

I do think this is truth.  Coaching is complex, and the best - long term success - have always combined people skills (such that they are), professional/personnel development,  X's and O's (scheming), and real-time game management.    There are hundreds of guys who are good at one or two of these, and fewer still who are good at three.  There is an elite group that is good at all four, and we all know their names.

I'm a huge fan of the Peter principle; there are just some guys that aren't head coach material simply because they can generate a game plan.  Wade Phillips is one of the best coordinators in the history of the league (That Denver Super Bowl season...) but I wouldn't hire him as a head coach.   I'm of that mind with Josh McDaniels, as well.   Steve Spagnola.  Jason Garrett.   Great football minds, but not head coach super stars.