Kobe Bryant died

[Stadler]

As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.

Someone in the US is killed in a car accident every 14 minutes.

I design parts of helicopters as my job so that was a feeble attempt at a halfhearted joke. Should've probably posted it in green.

Car accidents are indeed way worse if we're talking mortality rates.

I think we should listen to El Barto on this; we're in his wheelhouse, so to speak, and there are far more variables in play here (volume of vehicle/helicopter traffic, impact of weather on same, level of risk of complicating factors, etc.). 

[cramx3]

Didn't the LAPD ground all their aircraft due to weather?  If so, I'm not entirely sure how the heli would be safer than driving in this case.  But what do I know, getting around the LA are via car certainly is a disaster itself.

[gmillerdrake]

As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.

More specifically, as long as you don't fly when everyone else says not to due to the weather.  It feels this could have been avoided which makes it so much worse.

I really hope he didn't demand the pilot to fly in that weather to get them to the game.

That's still on the pilot. And if I've got Koby Briant's money and I'm interviewing pilots, one of the first things I'm looking for is a willingness to tell me to fuck off if the situation commands it. I've seen nothing that leads me to believe the decision to fly was a mistake. While the fog certainly added complexity to the flight, a functioning nav system and good IFR skills should have made the flight reasonably safe.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7934407/amp/Helicopter-crashed-killing-Kobe-8-circled-15-minutes-Burbank.html

Seems the pilot was granted permission to fly despite the weather.

[El Barto]

The LAPD was simply working a policy decision. Plenty of other AC were flying IFR, and there's no reason Kobe couldn't. However, they're clearly flying VFR and the pilot clearly flew right into a fog bank. He might not have known it was coming, but it's still on the pilot. It looks like he was trying to fly around it, but if the fog blows W-E that's a pretty poor bet considering he's trying to fly SW (back to the 101).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=143&v=B0pQfgi9ZqU&feature=emb_title

Disregard the "you're too low!" that the media will sensationalize. The controller said he was too low for flight following. That's a very different thing.

[goo-goo]

I design parts of helicopters as my job so that was a feeble attempt at a halfhearted joke. Should've probably posted it in green.
.

I worked for a helicopter manufacturing company in the accident investigation department for a few years. It was a shock when I started working there since I got ALL the notifications including accidents, crashes and incidents from ALL helicopter manufacturers worldwide. I think the human factor on both the pilot and control towers (and possibly the company who owned the chopper) will be scrutinized a lot if there is no mechanical issue identified. And by human, I'm not talking about just the pilots and ATC, but I mean, the procedures that were set and followed, not followed, etc. for letting a chopper fly in that kind of weather.

[El Barto]

As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.

More specifically, as long as you don't fly when everyone else says not to due to the weather.  It feels this could have been avoided which makes it so much worse.

I really hope he didn't demand the pilot to fly in that weather to get them to the game.

That's still on the pilot. And if I've got Koby Briant's money and I'm interviewing pilots, one of the first things I'm looking for is a willingness to tell me to fuck off if the situation commands it. I've seen nothing that leads me to believe the decision to fly was a mistake. While the fog certainly added complexity to the flight, a functioning nav system and good IFR skills should have made the flight reasonably safe.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7934407/amp/Helicopter-crashed-killing-Kobe-8-circled-15-minutes-Burbank.html

Seems the pilot was granted permission to fly despite the weather.

That's not entirely accurate. He took off under VFR. There's no special permission required for that. He transitioned to SVFR while already in the air. Any way you slice it this will be on the pilot, though. Not necessarily for his decision to make the flight to begin with, again, it could have been done safely, but for flying VFR into a mountain. There will be some extenuating circumstances, though. Billionaire passenger in a hurry will certainly be one. Also, taking off VFR and then asking to transition to IFR is kind of seen as a dick move. If you've gotta do it then you've gotta do it, but controllers really don't like it. You're basically bypassing all of their neatly arranged organization and barging in once you've skipped the hard part.

[Stadler]

What's "VFR" and "IFR" (I didn't watch the video)?

[Lonk]

Visual Flight Rules (VFR), Instrument Flight Rules (IFR).

I don't remember much (and too lazy to look it up now) but I believe IFR is used when weather condition might limit your visibility to 2 miles or less (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

[El Barto]

What's "VFR" and "IFR" (I didn't watch the video)?

Visual flight rules is when you hop in the family truckster and head to Hartford to catch a show. You're relying on your own ability to navigate there safely and you're doing your own thing. In aviation terms you're depending on having visual clues to fly by, specifically the ground and horizon, along with some visibility for other aircraft.  It's recommended that you file a flight plan so that if you don't show up somewhere in X amount of time they'll know where to look for the bodies, but you don't have to. Instrument flight rules are far more complex, and are at play when you won't be able to see the ground, horizon, traffic, etc. You'll file a flight plan and ATC will direct you on all legs of your flight. You'll follow set waypoints and maintain directed speed and altitude. You also have to be qualified to fly with no visual references. In training they actually put a visor of your head that restricts your view to nothing but the instruments. This is where JFK Jr. screwed the pooch. With no visual references it's easy to roll, climb, or dive without actually noticing until things turn catastrophic. In a modern aircraft the flight director will handle that for you, though. ATC tells you to turn this direction, climb to this altitude, and maintain this speed, and you just program it into the FD.

[Samsara]

El B - thanks for all the info. Helps understand it better.

[Stadler]

Yeah, I appreciate that very much.  Thank you.

SO IFR is NOT auto-pilot, then, but rather you're flying but relying on gauges and data instead of looking where you're going. 

[Harmony]

Just wondering what you all think about this.  I'm seeing some tweets that TMZ broke the story of Kobe's death before the family was officially notified.

Now I get it.  They are a gossip rag and it's their business to report on famous people.  But someone had to have leaked the manifest to them.  Isn't it the authorities job to inform the next-of-kin BEFORE the information is released?  Can any of you imagine finding out your spouse and child died on a news report?

I heard a rumor that one of Kobe's surviving children was rushed to the hospital after having a severe asthma attack upon hearing the unconfirmed news.    

[El Barto]

Yeah, I appreciate that very much.  Thank you.

SO IFR is NOT auto-pilot, then, but rather you're flying but relying on gauges and data instead of looking where you're going.

That's correct, but for the most part you'd use the AP in that situation*. See above about JFK Jr. But that's only part of it. There's an IFR qualification (instrument rating): can you do it. There's an IFR certification for the aircraft: is it properly equipped. Then there's the different role of ATC. In VFR they're content to leave you to your own devices. In an IFR flight they're assuming a great deal of responsibility for you.

I'm referring to IFR in general, and thus mostly fixed wing aircraft. Autopilots in helicopters aren't common, nor are they particularly advanced. I'm not certain, but I believe you're pretty much going to have to "hand fly" it, including when you're lost in the fog.

[wolfking]

great attitude for attacking life in general. 

That is an interesting (but unintentional, give that you don't really know his history) choice of words!

He raped a girl in 2003, and when she reported it, she was intimidated, bullied and traduced by his legal team out of testifying or continuing on with the criminal complaint (they publicized her name and sexual history, and Kobe/Laker fans made her life living hell).  They settled, he admitted it, and this case is why Colorado significantly strengthened their "rape shield" laws, protecting victims.

Yeah, I didn't know that.  Doesn't really change anything for me, not that I really had much thought about the whole subject anyway.  I'm sure he was a better man after that ordeal, seems that way.  It doesn't really matter now.

[El Barto]

Just wondering what you all think about this.  I'm seeing some tweets that TMZ broke the story of Kobe's death before the family was officially notified.

Now I get it.  They are a gossip rag and it's their business to report on famous people.  But someone had to have leaked the manifest to them.  Isn't it the authorities job to inform the next-of-kin BEFORE the information is released?  Can any of you imagine finding out your spouse and child died on a news report?

I heard a rumor that one of Kobe's surviving children was rushed to the hospital after having a severe asthma attack upon hearing the unconfirmed news.   

They're scumbags. I really hate TMZ. That said, they're filling a demand. Most of us here were sifting through the news looking for gory details as soon as Kev mentioned it. And the reality, in this case, is that the family was going to hear about it before Johnny made the trip out there anyway.

[KevShmev]

TMZ is a trashy gossip site, but I don't think there is a news site or channel in the world that would have sat on that info once it was in their hands and confirmed by their reliable sources.  It sucks, no one will ever accuse the media of caring about decency and respect in these situations; it's all about being the first to break the story.

[Harmony]

My question is how did they get the story?  Someone had to have leaked it.  Multiple witnesses saw the helicopter go down.  They wouldn't know who was on it.  The only possible way was that someone who looked at the manifest leaked it sold the info for cold, hard, cash.  THAT person needs to lose their job at the very least.

[Chino]

I don't blame a news organization for dumping that immediately. TMZ is getting a lot of shit for it because they're TMZ, but if it was CNN or Fox News that broke this story, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.   

[gmillerdrake]

I don't blame a news organization for dumping that immediately. TMZ is getting a lot of shit for it because they're TMZ, but if it was CNN or Fox News that broke this story, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

exactly. Which leads directly to Harmony's question. Someone knew that Kobe was on that helicopter and got that info out there pretty quick. I doubt that TMZ or CNN could call the airport and ask "who was on that flight that just crashed" and get an answer. Someone sold that info...or leaked it at best. It's that person(s) that would be the real dicks here.

[King Postwhore]

Problem is, TMZ has been getting these stories right while sites like ABC had all the kids passing away.

[Lonk]

My question is how did they get the story?  Someone had to have leaked it.  Multiple witnesses saw the helicopter go down.  They wouldn't know who was on it.  The only possible way was that someone who looked at the manifest leaked it sold the info for cold, hard, cash.  THAT person needs to lose their job at the very least.

I assume that once they saw a helicopter going down, it started spreading of a helicopter crash and in this case, sooner rather than later someone made the connection of who’s helicopter was it. I’m sure it was someone who knew Kobe took that helicopter before the crash that said “Crap I think that was Kobe” and from there it started spreading.

[TAC]

As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.

Someone in the US is killed in a car accident every 14 minutes.

I design parts of helicopters as my job

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[TAC]

You know what I was thinking last night...was what it must've been like for his poor wife to put her daughters to bed, even as she lost a child, and she couldn't even grieve for child's loss with her husband. I felt so bad for her.

[El Barto]

My question is how did they get the story?  Someone had to have leaked it.  Multiple witnesses saw the helicopter go down.  They wouldn't know who was on it.  The only possible way was that someone who looked at the manifest leaked it sold the info for cold, hard, cash.  THAT person needs to lose their job at the very least.

TMZ has built up enough of a reputation that they'll be the first people a witness calls. In this case, my money would be on an employee of the airport or the charter company.

[Chino]

Anyone can actively listen to police and emergency chatter through a number of applications. Is it possible that the helicopter's N-number was being broadcast?

[TAC]

Anyone can actively listen to police and emergency chatter through a number of applications. Is it possible that the helicopter's N-number was being broadcast?

Definitely. You know TMZ is listening to the scanners. Was this the helicopter he usually used, and was TMZ already familiar with it?

[El Barto]

Airport people knew the N number of the aircraft long before the first responders.  I doubt first responders had any idea who was aboard until well after the accident, and only after somebody told them. They care about numbers, not names. Also, as much as I despise TMZ, they're not sloppy. Like I said in the 3rd post, they don't bungle these things. They didn't report it until they had something solid. Not just "hey, wasn't 72EX Kobe's helicopter?" My guess is that when TRACON lost radar contact with them they queried the flight plan. That tipped off people at the departure airport and somebody there dropped a dime. Just a wild-ass guess, though.

[Stadler]

Remember too that TMZ - specifically, the correspondents that work for TMZ - is also interested in what a celebrity does and where, unlike ABC, CNN, or Fox, which only cares about a celebrity if and when something that is otherwise newsworthy (for them) happens.   So there may have been contact with TMZ, for other reasons, before there was even a crash.   TMZ doesn't get beaver shots of Britney Spears getting into Mercedes if they aren't aware of a celebrity's schedule independent of catastrophic events.   I don't know if it matters, but Harvey Levin also served in the California Air National Guard; there may be contacts there that play into this.

Speaking of, for all the critique of TMZ - warranted, I'm not going to try to defend them as I would Fox - Harvey Levin is a fascinating figure (I don't necessarily mean in a good way).  He also is the legal expert for the People's Court (I met him once in that capacity), and had a (seemingly) short run where he interviewed some big name celebrities; the conceit was that he would focus on one object or item that meant something to the celebrity, and build a profile around it.   He's an odd guy. 

[cramx3]

I don't really fault TMZ, it's not a pleasant business and I don't really "like" TMZ by any means, but someone's going to report it first, if not them, it will be someone else.  Doesn't make it right to hear it from the news before an official notification to the family, but as a Celebrity family, it is probably normal for them to be hit with news about them from the news.  Not a fun life style, but our country has a celebrity culture that makes it all what it is to begin with.  It's just a reflection of ourselves in a way.  How many of us clicked on TMZ's link when the news broke? 

[Dublagent66]

It seems like women who dare mention it on Twitter are getting threatened.  Because of course they fucking are.    There are some outlets that are broaching it head-on, some that glancingly acknowledge it (in such a way to downplay it), and some engaged in full-on hagiography.  That whole shitshow was a significant contributor to why women don't report (especially when a rich/famous/powerful man is involved).  Redemption is a weird thing in all of this...he has done a lot of good since then, but what he did (and what his lawyers did on his behalf) was horrifying.  I think we just have to hold both thoughts at the same time...he did some great things, some terrible things, he was a complex human being.  Neither side can or should be erased, and both should be fully acknowledged.  Every time an outlet glosses over or ignores the sexual assault, it's further erasure of victims, and a further entrenchment of the idea that a rich/powerful man can make anything go away, even in death.

While I agree in spirit, it hasn't even been 24 hours.  I don't think it's the right time to bring it up.  Heck, I was never a fan of his at all, but it just feels like having that conversation while his body is still warm is a bit unseemly, especially since 8 others lost their lives as well.  Maybe I am wrong.

Besides, Twitter is a sewer.

I sort of understand the reflex to say it's not the right time, but that raises the question of when the right time is?

The right time has already come and gone.  Prior to the crash, you had 17 years to talk about it.  Don't dredge up dirt on a guy who's just been tragically killed.

[Grappler]

The right time has already come and gone.  Prior to the crash, you had 17 years to talk about it.  Don't dredge up dirt on a guy who's just been tragically killed.

People have a right to like, dislike, or talk about a person's history at any time, regardless of the circumstances of their death.

I had completely forgotten about Kobe's legal troubles, simply because I never paid attention to the guy or watched pro basketball, and I was in my early 20's and focused on other things at the time.  But that doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to have an opinion on it just because he tragically died.  I do appreciate Samsara's summary in this thread, as it gives some additional perspective on how he may have changed as a person since then, which is commendable.  But it will always be a part of his history and deserves just as much consideration in conversation as his playing does. 

Someone can revere the guy for his on-court skills just as much as they can continue to dislike him for his off-court issues.

[cramx3]

The right time has already come and gone.  Prior to the crash, you had 17 years to talk about it.  Don't dredge up dirt on a guy who's just been tragically killed.

I disagree.  None of us are at his funeral where this should not be talked about, it's a discussion board and if he's not a squeaky clean as the media is currently showing him to be, it should be discussed.  Life is never so perfect and neither was his, it's within reason to discuss his ups and downs in the time of his passing.  By most accounts, he recovered and lived a better life.  It should be talked about how you can overcome your own bad actions instead of just glossing them over.

[El Barto]

My guess is that when TRACON lost radar contact with them they queried the flight plan. That tipped off people at the departure airport and somebody there dropped a dime. Just a wild-ass guess, though.

And of course my wild-ass guess was completely wrong. According to Levin a friend in LA law enforcement called him up and he confirmed it with Kobe's people. If he's telling the truth here then it suggests they didn't find out as quickly as it appears, and also that Kobe's family should have already been informed.

[bosk1]

Anyone can actively listen to police and emergency chatter through a number of applications. Is it possible that the helicopter's N-number was being broadcast?

Definitely. You know TMZ is listening to the scanners. Was this the helicopter he usually used, and was TMZ already familiar with it?

I heard a personal friend of his on radio this morning talking about that, and here's what she described:  Kobe completely lived for his daughters and did everything he could to be as involved in their lives as humanly possible, including coaching and being at all the games.  After he either missed or was late to one of their games (I think it was Gigi's, but not sure) because he was stuck in L.A. area traffic, he vowed to never let that happen again, and bought a helicopter so he could make that 1-2 hour commute between L.A. and Orange County in 15 minutes.  So, long story short: it was his personal helicopter, if that story is correct.

[TAC]

Yeah, there's audio that surfaced yesterday from an interview a year or so ago, where he talked about using the helicopter so he could drop off AND pick his kids up from school when he was home. Honestly, I think that's great.