Kobe Bryant died

[El Barto]

He'd been using the helicopter for quite some time, including traveling to and from home games, as I understand it. I'm pretty sure he didn't own it, though. It would have been a lease thing from an agency. I saw an interview with one of his pilots that referred go 72EX as his preferred chopper due to it being newer and more comfortable, but not the only one he used.

[bosk1]

Yeah, that's a good clarification.  I don't know if he owned it outright or leased it.  So I may very well have misspoken when I said "bought."  But in any case, it was his, and was one he had been using for awhile.

[Chino]

He'd been using the helicopter for quite some time, including traveling to and from home games, as I understand it. I'm pretty sure he didn't own it, though. It would have been a lease thing from an agency. I saw an interview with one of his pilots that referred go 72EX as his preferred chopper due to it being newer and more comfortable, but not the only one he used.

I think you're right. I've heard it referred to his "personal" or "private" helicopter, but I guess that doesn't imply ownership.

https://www.businessinsider.com/kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-sikorsky-s-76-2020-1

Bryant's helicopter was a Sikorsky S-76, a type that has had a relatively good safety record since its first flight in 1977. It was owned by Island Express Holding Corp., a helicopter operating company.

[El Barto]

I have no idea how it works with gazillionaires, but what often happens is that people will create a sort of time-share with a private aircraft. It's popular with professional pilots who want something they can use to take the family on vacation, or just go out and goof around, but won't be used often enough to justify the purchase. Five guys will buy the aircraft together and then create a schedule where they divide blocks for much of the year, and leave the rest of it as a first come, first served arrangement. They also share all operating costs. Island Express might be a charter service, or it could be a sort of management company that operates aircraft for a group of owners. Akin to a condominium and a management service.

[millahh]

It seems like women who dare mention it on Twitter are getting threatened.  Because of course they fucking are.    There are some outlets that are broaching it head-on, some that glancingly acknowledge it (in such a way to downplay it), and some engaged in full-on hagiography.  That whole shitshow was a significant contributor to why women don't report (especially when a rich/famous/powerful man is involved).  Redemption is a weird thing in all of this...he has done a lot of good since then, but what he did (and what his lawyers did on his behalf) was horrifying.  I think we just have to hold both thoughts at the same time...he did some great things, some terrible things, he was a complex human being.  Neither side can or should be erased, and both should be fully acknowledged.  Every time an outlet glosses over or ignores the sexual assault, it's further erasure of victims, and a further entrenchment of the idea that a rich/powerful man can make anything go away, even in death.

While I agree in spirit, it hasn't even been 24 hours.  I don't think it's the right time to bring it up.  Heck, I was never a fan of his at all, but it just feels like having that conversation while his body is still warm is a bit unseemly, especially since 8 others lost their lives as well.  Maybe I am wrong.

Besides, Twitter is a sewer.

I sort of understand the reflex to say it's not the right time, but that raises the question of when the right time is?

The right time has already come and gone.  Prior to the crash, you had 17 years to talk about it.  Don't dredge up dirt on a guy who's just been tragically killed.

That's a hard no.  By your logic, we had years to discuss his basketball prowess, and it shouldn't be discussed now.

What he did was monstrous, both the (admitted) rape and the aftermath in smearing the victim, which was so bad that Colorado changed their fucking laws to make sure it could never happen again.

The erasure of what he did, the hagiography & knob-slobbering, is an affront to the victim, and all victims of sexual assault who have been intimidated and erased by our culture.  It's all about the man's (whether Kobe, Louis CK, or Matt Lauer, or Charlie Rose, or...) feelings and legacy, his bullshit redemption arc, never mind the damage left in his wake that so many try to ignore because it's messy.  It's that man's story arc that seems to matter.  And it's fundamentally misogynist.  Dredging up dirt? Give me a fucking break...god forbid anyone mention reality on Kobe's path to canonization.

Kobe gets redemption credit for the gay slur thing, he put in the work, realized what he did was horrible, made amends, and became a part of correcting that aspect of the NBA culture.  But there was never even a nod in the direction of sexual assault.  All of that philanthropy?  That's all well and good, but it has fuck-all to do with sexual assault or destroying a victim's life. A has nothing to do with B.

[Stadler]

I have no idea how it works with gazillionaires, but what often happens is that people will create a sort of time-share with a private aircraft. It's popular with professional pilots who want something they can use to take the family on vacation, or just go out and goof around, but won't be used often enough to justify the purchase. Five guys will buy the aircraft together and then create a schedule where they divide blocks for much of the year, and leave the rest of it as a first come, first served arrangement. They also share all operating costs. Island Express might be a charter service, or it could be a sort of management company that operates aircraft for a group of owners. Akin to a condominium and a management service.

GE Capital had an entire division dedicated to this type of arrangement (and with trains as well).  "Timeshare" is an apt description.

[Dr. DTVT]

I would just like to state I am very thankful Millah is articulating what I have been thinking about this much better than I would have.  I think an interesting discussion for another thread (not here) is the subject of redemption and when and if it can be earned.  But I don’t post enough here to really participate anymore...back to the sidelines for me.

[T-ski]

It seems like women who dare mention it on Twitter are getting threatened.  Because of course they fucking are.    There are some outlets that are broaching it head-on, some that glancingly acknowledge it (in such a way to downplay it), and some engaged in full-on hagiography.  That whole shitshow was a significant contributor to why women don't report (especially when a rich/famous/powerful man is involved).  Redemption is a weird thing in all of this...he has done a lot of good since then, but what he did (and what his lawyers did on his behalf) was horrifying.  I think we just have to hold both thoughts at the same time...he did some great things, some terrible things, he was a complex human being.  Neither side can or should be erased, and both should be fully acknowledged.  Every time an outlet glosses over or ignores the sexual assault, it's further erasure of victims, and a further entrenchment of the idea that a rich/powerful man can make anything go away, even in death.

While I agree in spirit, it hasn't even been 24 hours.  I don't think it's the right time to bring it up.  Heck, I was never a fan of his at all, but it just feels like having that conversation while his body is still warm is a bit unseemly, especially since 8 others lost their lives as well.  Maybe I am wrong.

Besides, Twitter is a sewer.

I sort of understand the reflex to say it's not the right time, but that raises the question of when the right time is?

The right time has already come and gone.  Prior to the crash, you had 17 years to talk about it.  Don't dredge up dirt on a guy who's just been tragically killed.

That's a hard no.  By your logic, we had years to discuss his basketball prowess, and it shouldn't be discussed now.

What he did was monstrous, both the (admitted) rape and the aftermath in smearing the victim, which was so bad that Colorado changed their fucking laws to make sure it could never happen again.

The erasure of what he did, the hagiography & knob-slobbering, is an affront to the victim, and all victims of sexual assault who have been intimidated and erased by our culture.  It's all about the man's (whether Kobe, Louis CK, or Matt Lauer, or Charlie Rose, or...) feelings and legacy, his bullshit redemption arc, never mind the damage left in his wake that so many try to ignore because it's messy.  It's that man's story arc that seems to matter.  And it's fundamentally misogynist.  Dredging up dirt? Give me a fucking break...god forbid anyone mention reality on Kobe's path to canonization.

Kobe gets redemption credit for the gay slur thing, he put in the work, realized what he did was horrible, made amends, and became a part of correcting that aspect of the NBA culture.  But there was never even a nod in the direction of sexual assault.  All of that philanthropy?  That's all well and good, but it has fuck-all to do with sexual assault or destroying a victim's life. A has nothing to do with B.

well said.

[Harmony]

What he did was monstrous, both the (admitted) rape and the aftermath in smearing the victim, which was so bad that Colorado changed their fucking laws to make sure it could never happen again.

The erasure of what he did, the hagiography & knob-slobbering, is an affront to the victim, and all victims of sexual assault who have been intimidated and erased by our culture.  It's all about the man's (whether Kobe, Louis CK, or Matt Lauer, or Charlie Rose, or...) feelings and legacy, his bullshit redemption arc, never mind the damage left in his wake that so many try to ignore because it's messy.  It's that man's story arc that seems to matter.  And it's fundamentally misogynist.

Thank you, millahh.  I hope you know that reading this post gives me a sliver of hope.  Hope for those who all too often have no voice.  EVER.

Having read KB's statements on the matter, I doubt he'd want this part of his story 'erased'.  I'd like to believe that he would even encourage the discussion.  Sometimes having daughters will crystalize issues for fathers and lead to new reflections and a desire to do and be better.  I'd like to think Kobe was one of those fathers.

[Dublagent66]

I'm pretty sure this thread was intended to discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragic accident and to pay our respects to the dead.  We're not here to trample a man's grave by making off topic points about a completely different matter that happened a long time ago.  Start your own thread and discuss it there.

[T-ski]

I'm pretty sure this thread was intended to discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragic accident and to pay our respects to the dead.  We're not here to trample a man's grave by making off topic points about a completely different matter that happened a long time ago.  Start your own thread and discuss it there.

why does it matter it "happened a long time ago"? its part of his legacy and should not be ignored.

[Dublagent66]

The kid component of this tragedy is really getting me. His daughter and the other daughter.....I can’t imagine as a parent that final 30/45 seconds when the realization hit that they were going to crash....what’d you’d do for your child as they’d clearly be in a panic and fear. I can’t seem to stop thinking about that. It’s brutal and heartbreaking

it is, but based on the the description I saw of it by an eye witness (older guy who seemed really smart and knew his stuff), it sounds like the pilot did not know the hill was there and flew into it, so it is likely that death was nearly instantaneous for everyone, which is all you can hope for, that way no one suffered.

Yeah Kev.  This is most likely the case it would seem from hearing the final communications with the pilot.  He had no idea the hill was there.  As investigators indicated in the following article, even if the aircraft had the TAWS system, the crash still may not have been averted.  It seems that the decision to fly in such poor conditions is the compelling factor.  This tragedy could've been easily avoided by choosing not to take the risk.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pilot-bryant-helicopter-tried-avoid-060826690.html

[gmillerdrake]

The kid component of this tragedy is really getting me. His daughter and the other daughter.....I can’t imagine as a parent that final 30/45 seconds when the realization hit that they were going to crash....what’d you’d do for your child as they’d clearly be in a panic and fear. I can’t seem to stop thinking about that. It’s brutal and heartbreaking

it is, but based on the the description I saw of it by an eye witness (older guy who seemed really smart and knew his stuff), it sounds like the pilot did not know the hill was there and flew into it, so it is likely that death was nearly instantaneous for everyone, which is all you can hope for, that way no one suffered.

Yeah Kev.  This is most likely the case it would seem from hearing the final communications with the pilot.  He had no idea the hill was there.  As investigators indicated in the following article, even if the aircraft had the TAWS system, the crash still may not have been averted.  It seems that the decision to fly in such poor conditions is the compelling factor.  This tragedy could've been easily avoided by choosing not to take the risk.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pilot-bryant-helicopter-tried-avoid-060826690.html

This could be the 'saving grace' of the accident. To think that they knew they were about to crash and most likely die is a horrific thought....but if they hit the hillside 'out of nowhere' then at least they were spared those last moments of fear.

That article and others like it along with witness accounts does more or less suggest that this was pilot error....brought on by the heavy fog where he just got disorientated. You can see by the flight path that he did well for a while following the road as suggested by the flight controllers...but then just got mixed up. 

[cramx3]

What I heard on the TV news last night that it was a quick descent, so I'm not sure they didn't know they were in serious danger.  Also, they noted that Kobe went to church early before any mass before the flight and the pastor there was one of the last people to really talk to him (he was being interviews in the news piece).  If you are a spiritual person, that might give you some comfort in all of this.

[El Barto]

What I heard on the TV news last night that it was a quick descent, so I'm not sure they didn't know they were in serious danger.  Also, they noted that Kobe went to church early before any mass before the flight and the pastor there was one of the last people to really talk to him (he was being interviews in the news piece).  If you are a spiritual person, that might give you some comfort in all of this.

There were ascents and descents. He was aware he was over hilly terrain, but he also had a low ceiling. He was very likely trying to find a sweet spot that gave him ground clearance and visibility.

[Chino]

[Serious] If visibility is that terrible and you know you are above hilly terrain, why not just go straight up?

[El Barto]

[Serious] If visibility is that terrible and you know you are above hilly terrain, why not just go straight up?

Good question. I can guess a couple of answers. One is that there's no guarantee you ever hit good visibility. In fact, I'd bet against it. Second, there are air space considerations. He was very likely limited to a pretty low altitude. He could have declared an emergency and ascended straight up, but he'd have some hard questions to answer when he got back on the ground. Third, it relies on being able to fly the aircraft completely blind to a safe location. He should have been able to do it, but there's certainly an inherent risk. He might have just misjudged the comparative risks. Also, I suspect those risks are much higher flying a rotary wing aircraft.

[Dublagent66]

Good points Barto.  I may be misreading the 2nd sentence of the article below.  It seems to suggest that the pilot lost control of the aircraft.  While listening to the audio communications between ATC and the pilot, there was no indication of this.  There seems to be some conflicting information.  I was originally led to believe from another source that the pilot deliberately made the steep left turn decent.  At this point, I'm not sure what happened.

"Pilot Ara Zobayan had been climbing out of the clouds when the aircraft banked left and began a sudden and terrifying 1,200-foot (366-meter) descent that lasted nearly a minute."

[Anguyen92]

Jon Rosen, The Los Angeles Kings Insider, made a post on their site that has some pictures of the setting in LA Live and Staples Center as the LA Kings will play against the Tampa Bay Lightning in, what I presume, is the first game of any kind in the Staples Center after last Sunday.  Bob Miller, former long-time LA Kings Broadcaster, will host a pre-game ceremony in tribute to Kobe which will show up on NBCSN after the airing of whatever game is going on right now.  Naturally, it's a a very somber atmosphere.

https://lakingsinsider.com/2020/01/29/live-blog-honoring-kobe-gianna-john-keri-alyssa-sarah-payton-christina-and-ara/

[Dublagent66]

I'm pretty sure this thread was intended to discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragic accident and to pay our respects to the dead.  We're not here to trample a man's grave by making off topic points about a completely different matter that happened a long time ago.  Start your own thread and discuss it there.

why does it matter it "happened a long time ago"? its part of his legacy and should not be ignored.

Fine.  Don't ignore it in another thread.

[millahh]

I'm pretty sure this thread was intended to discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragic accident and to pay our respects to the dead.  We're not here to trample a man's grave by making off topic points about a completely different matter that happened a long time ago.  Start your own thread and discuss it there.

why does it matter it "happened a long time ago"? its part of his legacy and should not be ignored.

Fine.  Don't ignore it in another thread.

Counterpoint: No.

1). There was no stated purpose to the thread, and no exclusion of topics.  It was news, understanding what was going on, and discussion of public reaction (which certainly includes the highly credible rape allegations and the aftermath)
2). Even if there was a stated purpose, so what?  No one person (who isn't bosk1) gets to prohibit a discussion
3). You did not start the thread, and even if you did, are not a mod.  Playing thread police is a little weird

Does KB really need you defending his honor, to be his white knight?

My wife put it quite well...  "I am not a believer in 'Don’t Speak Ill of the Dead'. If you don’t want bad things written about you in your obituary, then don’t do bad things while you’re alive."

[jammindude]

The problem with that is that everyone is the monster in someone else’s story. No one is immune. Someone on this planet thinks you’re an unforgivable bastard, and it’s not really nice to the people who love you if they show up to protest your funeral.

[cramx3]

The problem with that is that everyone is the monster in someone else’s story. No one is immune. Someone on this planet thinks you’re an unforgivable bastard, and it’s not really nice to the people who love you if they show up to protest your funeral.

Agreed, but no one here is protesting at the funeral.  Its just a discussion forum on a thread about his death, I don't think there's any reason to limit the discussion to just praise if there are things that should be noted and discussed.  Certainly there's no rule about this specific thread either so no idea why dublagent is bossing the discussion other than his own dislike of hearing it himself.  It's not talked about much on the news so I think it's good that there is a place for this discussion honestly.  I think it's important.

[Adami]

The problem with that is that everyone is the monster in someone else’s story. No one is immune.

Except Fred Rogers.

[Stadler]

I started a thread for this to take it out of the Kobe discussion.

[millahh]

I started a thread for this to take it out of the Kobe discussion.

But to me, that's exactly the problem...it's sanitizing away the uncomfortable truth for those who don't want to see it, moving it someplace comfortable.

[Stadler]

I started a thread for this to take it out of the Kobe discussion.

But to me, that's exactly the problem...it's sanitizing away the uncomfortable truth for those who don't want to see it, moving it someplace comfortable.

I don't think I sanitized anything in what I wrote. 

But seriously, I understand your point. 

[gmillerdrake]

This should get the lawsuits rolling.....


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html

[T-ski]

This should get the lawsuits rolling.....


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html

so now the question is, who made the call to actually use the helicopter? 

[Dublagent66]

Only the charter company can authorize a pilot to fly their aircraft.  That's why the fleet has been grounded, which is what should've happened last Sunday morning. 
You're right, someone at that company is gonna be in deep shit, if not the entire company.

[Dublagent66]

I'm pretty sure this thread was intended to discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragic accident and to pay our respects to the dead.  We're not here to trample a man's grave by making off topic points about a completely different matter that happened a long time ago.  Start your own thread and discuss it there.

why does it matter it "happened a long time ago"? its part of his legacy and should not be ignored.

Fine.  Don't ignore it in another thread.

Counterpoint: No.

1). There was no stated purpose to the thread, and no exclusion of topics.  It was news, understanding what was going on, and discussion of public reaction (which certainly includes the highly credible rape allegations and the aftermath)
2). Even if there was a stated purpose, so what?  No one person (who isn't bosk1) gets to prohibit a discussion
3). You did not start the thread, and even if you did, are not a mod.  Playing thread police is a little weird

Does KB really need you defending his honor, to be his white knight?

My wife put it quite well...  "I am not a believer in 'Don’t Speak Ill of the Dead'. If you don’t want bad things written about you in your obituary, then don’t do bad things while you’re alive."

I thought about responding to this, but after careful consideration, this isn’t the proper thread to argue the character of the recently deceased.  I would be glad to debate this issue with you in the other thread.

[Ben_Jamin]

This should get the lawsuits rolling.....


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html

so now the question is, who made the call to actually use the helicopter?

Exactly why the Pilot should've known the weather beforehand and before taking flight. Also, why didn't Kobe see the weather also and determine it's not good to fly? I mean its never good to fly in Fog, just for that reason alone and what if Birds happen to fly in your path. Like the NY pilot that landed on the river, due to him hitting a goose.

[Chino]

This should get the lawsuits rolling.....


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html

so now the question is, who made the call to actually use the helicopter?

Exactly why the Pilot should've known the weather beforehand and before taking flight. Also, why didn't Kobe see the weather also and determine it's not good to fly? I mean its never good to fly in Fog, just for that reason alone and what if Birds happen to fly in your path. Like the NY pilot that landed on the river, due to him hitting a goose.

I don't know why I know this, but typically larger birds (ducks and geese), the ones that could take down an aircraft, also don't fly in fog. They can go long periods of time without food, and when it's super foggy out, they don't even bother getting airborne to find food. It's safer to just stay put than to try and navigate an unexpected tree line.

[Ben_Jamin]

This should get the lawsuits rolling.....


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html

so now the question is, who made the call to actually use the helicopter?

Exactly why the Pilot should've known the weather beforehand and before taking flight. Also, why didn't Kobe see the weather also and determine it's not good to fly? I mean its never good to fly in Fog, just for that reason alone and what if Birds happen to fly in your path. Like the NY pilot that landed on the river, due to him hitting a goose.

I don't know why I know this, but typically larger birds (ducks and geese), the ones that could take down an aircraft, also don't fly in fog. They can go long periods of time without food, and when it's super foggy out, they don't even bother getting airborne to find food. It's safer to just stay put than to try and navigate an unexpected tree line.

Honestly, why then did they fly if the birds wouldn't even fly?

[Stadler]

Who knows what happened, but this sort of comes up in a lot of instances like this.  Sometimes bad things happen, sometimes things don't go according to the plan.   How do we know that the pilot and Kobe (and, presumably, the rest of the parents, that in my view certainly could have said "Not getting on that circus ride, bro!") didn't mutually decide they're going to do this?  At what point does it just get labelled tragedy, we file the data for next time and move on?   Why does every tragic event have to have some sort of culpable bad guy?