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Started by Phoenix87x, January 26, 2020, 05:32:15 AM

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XeRocks81

so mods, are you going to do something about this or are you going to prove Dave's point again?

cramx3

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM
Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

Ben_Jamin

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM
Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM
Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

There are other treatments available. Just the vaccines, supposedly, have the lowest risk involved with side effects of using them. I mean you could, but it would cause more issues.

But that all depends on the person and whether their bodies are able to handle whats in the medicines, and if their body doesn't have any issues that will counter-react the medicine and make it worthless or make the person actually get worse.

It's why you need to see your doctor before taking any medications. You should be seeing your nutritionist to see what nutrients you are missing or need to cut down on. You may have too much or too little of a certain nutrient, and that may be what is causing the issue you are having with your body.

Some people have found that a simple diet change works for them. And if it works for them, then I'm all for it. But what works for the other doesn't mean it will work for you. And that is something only you should be aware of, know, and understand.

It's why one would go to a doctor to see what they need to do to better their overall health.

But with the introduction of money and fortune, most doctors are not there for your health, they are there for the money. And drugs are a big business that brings in the big bucks. So they push the products as they get a commission for prescribing that medication. It's a bit of a concern when they push their products, as they are businesses that have a huge net worth.

As with anything in this life, there are good and bad people in these professions. And this that are good, really do care about you and your health and won't be pushing these products on you if something happens to work for yourself, and it heals you. They'll be for whatever heals you.



King Postwhore

But no doctor would say that holistic medicine is the way. They will always tell you taking care of yourself is half the battle but in a pandemic,  they will tell you to take the vaccine. 
"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'." - Bon Newhart.

bosk1

Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 27, 2021, 06:10:58 PM
so mods, are you going to do something about this or are you going to prove Dave's point again?

Well, I'm not really sure what Dave's point was, because he apparently thought it was better to throw a tantrum rather than man up and discuss whatever ax he had to grind. 

But as to your request to "do something about this," are you implying that we shut down a viewpoint just because you personally disagree with it?*  That isn't how we do things here.  If you disagree with his points, why don't you try stating a good argument to the contrary?


*Personally, I find his "argument" pretty ridiculous too.  But "ridiculous" isn't the standard for shutting something down.  Violating the forum rules is.  If you think a rule has been violated, please let me know which one. 

ariich

Yeah I was going to say the same as bosk. It may be frustrating when people appear to spout nonsense, but it isn't against the rules.

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 10, 2023, 06:59:19 PMAriich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
Quote from: TAC on December 21, 2023, 07:05:15 AMI be am boner inducing.

darkshade

Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM
Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM
Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

Were US hospitals allowed to administer, for example, HCQ to newly infected patients in the last 15 months?

I'm not saying vaccines shouldn't be available, but the messaging has been "We can't do anything until we have a vaccine" which then became "only the vaccine can save us!!"

Stadler

#9072
Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 07:47:26 PM
Quote from: XeRocks81 on May 27, 2021, 06:10:58 PM
so mods, are you going to do something about this or are you going to prove Dave's point again?

Well, I'm not really sure what Dave's point was, because he apparently thought it was better to throw a tantrum rather than man up and discuss whatever ax he had to grind. 

But as to your request to "do something about this," are you implying that we shut down a viewpoint just because you personally disagree with it?*  That isn't how we do things here.  If you disagree with his points, why don't you try stating a good argument to the contrary?


*Personally, I find his "argument" pretty ridiculous too.  But "ridiculous" isn't the standard for shutting something down.  Violating the forum rules is.  If you think a rule has been violated, please let me know which one. 

I'm not on board with the above argument either, for the record, so I'm not defending it.   But just "spouting nonsense" WASN'T, I don't think, Dave's point. Dave did, frequently, respond to "nonsense" with a good argument to the contrary.  That is one of his skills, whether you agree with him or not.  I think Dave's point was more that he felt - rightly or wrongly - that the "nonsense" was sometimes treated with as much or more deference than the good argument depending on the side from which each came.  I don't know whether I agree with that or not, but I do know from personal experience that, in general, Xe is not very tolerant about ideas that conflict with his own world view.

Stadler

#9073
Quote from: darkshade on May 28, 2021, 05:42:02 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM
Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM
Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

Were US hospitals allowed to administer, for example, HCQ to newly infected patients in the last 15 months?

I'm not saying vaccines shouldn't be available, but the messaging has been "We can't do anything until we have a vaccine" which then became "only the vaccine can save us!!"

I thought HCQ was shown not to work.   "The results showed no evidence that previous treatment with HCQ had a beneficial effect on COVID-19 mortality."

Whether "$$$$" were involved or not, the vaccine is really the only thing we have at this point.   THat's the thing I can't quite wrap my arms around about the anti-vaxxers; even if it DOES insert microchips (it doesn't), even if it DOES rearrange your DNA (it doesn't), even if it DOES make your arm magnetic (it doesn't), even if any of those bad things happen, isn't it still worth the risk to give you more time on the planet?  You can die tomorrow of COVID, or your masturbating habits can be tracked over the next 30 years and there's a chance you could turn into Spider-Man.  Seems like a no-brainer to me.

lonestar

California announced their own vaccine lottery, with ten 1.5 million dollar prizes, along with a slew of other cash incentives totalling 116 million. Almost sad that we have to offer shit like this for a free vaccine that can save lives, where that money can surely go to good use elsewhere (of course being California it's fairly likely we'd spend it on something stupid too lol)



That being said, I hope I win.

TAC

Yeah, they could just plow it into some HCQ treatments.

hunnus2000

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM
Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM
Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

There are other treatments available. Just the vaccines, supposedly, have the lowest risk involved with side effects of using them. I mean you could, but it would cause more issues.


I keep reading about "other available treatments" and "natural immunity" but is there any scientific data showing this to be the case? If so, I haven't seen it.

Stadler

Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 07:20:13 AM
California announced their own vaccine lottery, with ten 1.5 million dollar prizes, along with a slew of other cash incentives totalling 116 million. Almost sad that we have to offer shit like this for a free vaccine that can save lives, where that money can surely go to good use elsewhere (of course being California it's fairly likely we'd spend it on something stupid too lol)



That being said, I hope I win.

On my local TV news, it said Cali was giving $50 gift cards to the next 2,000,000 that get the vaccine.  Is that accurate?  And if so, can I get a third shot NOW?

King Postwhore

Quote from: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 07:45:43 AM
Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 07:20:13 AM
California announced their own vaccine lottery, with ten 1.5 million dollar prizes, along with a slew of other cash incentives totalling 116 million. Almost sad that we have to offer shit like this for a free vaccine that can save lives, where that money can surely go to good use elsewhere (of course being California it's fairly likely we'd spend it on something stupid too lol)



That being said, I hope I win.

On my local TV news, it said Cali was giving $50 gift cards to the next 2,000,000 that get the vaccine.  Is that accurate?  And if so, can I get a third shot NOW?

Offer guys a blue pill for a year free so they can give out shots too.
"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'." - Bon Newhart.

Ben_Jamin

Quote from: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 06:59:46 AM
Quote from: darkshade on May 28, 2021, 05:42:02 AM
Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM
Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM
Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

Were US hospitals allowed to administer, for example, HCQ to newly infected patients in the last 15 months?

I'm not saying vaccines shouldn't be available, but the messaging has been "We can't do anything until we have a vaccine" which then became "only the vaccine can save us!!"

I thought HCQ was shown not to work.   "The results showed no evidence that previous treatment with HCQ had a beneficial effect on COVID-19 mortality."

Whether "$$$$" were involved or not, the vaccine is really the only thing we have at this point.   THat's the thing I can't quite wrap my arms around about the anti-vaxxers; even if it DOES insert microchips (it doesn't), even if it DOES rearrange your DNA (it doesn't), even if it DOES make your arm magnetic (it doesn't), even if any of those bad things happen, isn't it still worth the risk to give you more time on the planet?  You can die tomorrow of COVID, or your masturbating habits can be tracked over the next 30 years and there's a chance you could turn into Spider-Man.  Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Keyword is mortality and they were trying anything at that time to try and stop that mortality.

If caught early enough, and treated before any worse symptoms happen, it's worked for some people. That's the keyword, Some. It actually was useful for some people. And those were people that were not, pretty much, on their death beds.

If someone is already in bad shape, I doubt the vaccine will help them in the long run. There's people with severe cancer, and people have other illnesses they will most likely end up dying from regardless if they take the vaccine or not. I actually know people whom have passed on due to their already bad conditions.

The vaccine isn't here to prevent death. It won't stop people from dying and won't give people eternal life.

If it did, I still wouldn't take it, because death is a part of life and nature. Everything on this earth dies sometime. Nothing is eternal, and will never ever be eternal. That's just how egotistical and narcissistic we humans think we are immortal and can live forever. (it's the entire concept of 'BE')

And I already explained my reasoning for why people ended up fearing an illness, that was exposed and consistently on the news and tv. Imagine if we didn't have TV, and just had the Newspapers?

Personally, I find it hilarious how they're so desperately trying to get people to submit and take the vaccine, or their products, that they're going to lengths to bribe people into getting one. And using "Science" and "Belief" as a guise, and using it against the people for their own purpose of getting the world vaccinated.





lonestar

Quote from: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 07:45:43 AM
Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 07:20:13 AM
California announced their own vaccine lottery, with ten 1.5 million dollar prizes, along with a slew of other cash incentives totalling 116 million. Almost sad that we have to offer shit like this for a free vaccine that can save lives, where that money can surely go to good use elsewhere (of course being California it's fairly likely we'd spend it on something stupid too lol)



That being said, I hope I win.

On my local TV news, it said Cali was giving $50 gift cards to the next 2,000,000 that get the vaccine.  Is that accurate?  And if so, can I get a third shot NOW?

Yup, that's part of it. And her I was being a simp and getting it at first chance for the whole saving my life thing.

Ben_Jamin

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 07:30:00 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM
Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM
Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

There are other treatments available. Just the vaccines, supposedly, have the lowest risk involved with side effects of using them. I mean you could, but it would cause more issues.


I keep reading about "other available treatments" and "natural immunity" but is there any scientific data showing this to be the case? If so, I haven't seen it.

This is why I feel science is also a belief. Because people just have and need to see the science first to believe if whatever is true or not. People need hard evidence, and sometimes that hard evidence isn't there. And Science is still trying to understand these unknown phenomenons of life. We humans do not know everything, and what we do know may not actually be truth, but our own perceptions at the time. As we evolve and grow, we understand more. Intelligence is measured by knowledge, and not everyone has the same understanding of that knowledge. Most cultures have this knowledge, but it's their own Interpretation of that knowledge, and breaking the communication barrier of language will help to understand the knowledge they possess. And you will find that they understand many of the things science explains, and even things that science can't explain, yet. And due to the language and communication barrier, it's sometimes hard to explain so the other can comprehend and understand.

And that is Faith, and Trust.

So people in general have faith and trust in science and believe in it, that it ends up being a form of belief system. Which is how other cultures and religions view their beliefs, faith, and trust.

These cultures have stories, and legends, and myths, that all describe life. The Christian and Catholic religions have the bible, because those humans invented a writing system that the world has been forced to understand and know. Yet other languages and writing systems are not.

So how can people say they understand and know, when they don't even understand and can't comprehend these other cultures and their beliefs, faiths, and trust.

This is why I feel vaccines are not the end all answer to our health situations and diseases we have currently. I can give you my perspective, but that doesn't mean you will understand, comprehend, and believe in what I am telling you.

These diseases and illnesses are here and happen because of what we humans do. They're consequences and the effects of our decisions and choices in life. So for me, we have no one to blame but our own arrogance and greed and lust for power that caused all of us to be where we are today. Struggling to heal the Earth so we could live our lives happy and free...

Sorry for the long posts....But this is what I think and it's my perspective on life and where we are currently, and the struggles we face as the human species.

hefdaddy42

Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 07:30:00 AM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 27, 2021, 06:35:25 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on May 27, 2021, 06:11:31 PM
Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on May 27, 2021, 09:24:29 AM
Let's keep the politics where they belong, please.  Since we are talking about the vaccine rollout, suffice it to say, it was the Trump administration that got Operation: Warpspeed up and running in the first place, and once we had the vaccines in place, it was the Biden administration that took the reins and found ways to ratchet up distribution in other ways.  We can quibble over the fact that both parties and administrations made serious missteps that created big problems, and we can argue about which we believe are worse.  But that doesn't really get us anywhere, so let's leave that to the P/R section.

but why would the Trump admin and the current installed one both push vaccines when other treatments are available?
No need for a response. $$$$

If other treatments were as effective and available, the downward curve of infections/hospitalizations/deaths would have happened when exactly?

There are other treatments available. Just the vaccines, supposedly, have the lowest risk involved with side effects of using them. I mean you could, but it would cause more issues.


I keep reading about "other available treatments" and "natural immunity" but is there any scientific data showing this to be the case? If so, I haven't seen it.
No. 

Skeever

Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 27, 2021, 03:09:43 PM
The transition periods tend to be a shit show.  Transitioning from normal life to pandemic life took a couple of months for things to start running smoothly and I think transitioning back out of the pandemic will be just as topsy-turvy for a couple of months then things will smooth out and this will become a series of "outbreaks" confined to regional areas. 


We'll probably spike back up in the fall and early winter but hopefully enough people will be vaccinated by then to mitigate it to the point of nuisance rather than catastrophe like we've had over the last 15 months


Time will tell

Yeah. I'm a little worried though because the transition to lockdown life seems to veer towards "ok, people are dealing with a lot, let's give everyone a lot of slack", and I just worry that won't be true as we transition back to "the new normal". Even now, in the twilight of the "Work From Home Era", I'm seeing way less tolerance before. As an anecdote, our management just decided they wanted everyone's cameras on all the time during all meetings, and the number of meetings has increased despite to where it's back to 4-6 hours of meetings for me most days. It's hell. Thank god my kid is not home right now because there is no way I could do it.

King Postwhore

I've worked in a warehouse (Wal Mart Distribution Center) throughout the pandemic.  It's wasn't bad at all.  Honestly, the masks in the heat in the summertime was the only hard part for us.  Wal Mart has over 2300 employees here and I have 20 employees and not one employee came down with the virus.  Some Wal Mart employees did but all followed protocols and were out 14 days.  Overall it went smoother then I expected.
"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'." - Bon Newhart.

lonestar

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 28, 2021, 09:27:18 AM
I've worked in a warehouse (Wal Mart Distribution Center) throughout the pandemic.  It's wasn't bad at all.  Honestly, the masks in the heat in the summertime was the only hard part for us.  Wal Mart has over 2300 employees here and I have 20 employees and not one employee came down with the virus.  Some Wal Mart employees did but all followed protocols and were out 14 days.  Overall it went smoother then I expected.

At the Whole Foods I work my second job at, we have around 400 employees. During the peak here between Dec and Jan, we probably had north of 20 people test positive, but through tracing it was shown that none of them were an employee to employee transmission. I feel that spoke volumes to the protocols that the store put into place concerning masking and sanitation.

King Postwhore

Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 09:39:31 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on May 28, 2021, 09:27:18 AM
I've worked in a warehouse (Wal Mart Distribution Center) throughout the pandemic.  It's wasn't bad at all.  Honestly, the masks in the heat in the summertime was the only hard part for us.  Wal Mart has over 2300 employees here and I have 20 employees and not one employee came down with the virus.  Some Wal Mart employees did but all followed protocols and were out 14 days.  Overall it went smoother then I expected.

At the Whole Foods I work my second job at, we have around 400 employees. During the peak here between Dec and Jan, we probably had north of 20 people test positive, but through tracing it was shown that none of them were an employee to employee transmission. I feel that spoke volumes to the protocols that the store put into place concerning masking and sanitation.

My own opinion is that most caught it in a private environment.  Not in large corporations who set protocols correctly. 
"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'." - Bon Newhart.

hunnus2000

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on May 28, 2021, 08:19:39 AM

I keep reading about "other available treatments" and "natural immunity" but is there any scientific data showing this to be the case? If so, I haven't seen it.

This is why I feel science is also a belief. Because people just have and need to see the science first to believe if whatever is true or not. People need hard evidence, and sometimes that hard evidence isn't there. And Science is still trying to understand these unknown phenomenons of life. We humans do not know everything, and what we do know may not actually be truth, but our own perceptions at the time. As we evolve and grow, we understand more. Intelligence is measured by knowledge, and not everyone has the same understanding of that knowledge. Most cultures have this knowledge, but it's their own Interpretation of that knowledge, and breaking the communication barrier of language will help to understand the knowledge they possess. And you will find that they understand many of the things science explains, and even things that science can't explain, yet. And due to the language and communication barrier, it's sometimes hard to explain so the other can comprehend and understand.

And that is Faith, and Trust.

So people in general have faith and trust in science and believe in it, that it ends up being a form of belief system. Which is how other cultures and religions view their beliefs, faith, and trust.

These cultures have stories, and legends, and myths, that all describe life. The Christian and Catholic religions have the bible, because those humans invented a writing system that the world has been forced to understand and know. Yet other languages and writing systems are not.

So how can people say they understand and know, when they don't even understand and can't comprehend these other cultures and their beliefs, faiths, and trust.

This is why I feel vaccines are not the end all answer to our health situations and diseases we have currently. I can give you my perspective, but that doesn't mean you will understand, comprehend, and believe in what I am telling you.

These diseases and illnesses are here and happen because of what we humans do. They're consequences and the effects of our decisions and choices in life. So for me, we have no one to blame but our own arrogance and greed and lust for power that caused all of us to be where we are today. Struggling to heal the Earth so we could live our lives happy and free...

Sorry for the long posts....But this is what I think and it's my perspective on life and where we are currently, and the struggles we face as the human species.
[/quote]

I have no problem if someone wants to say that science is a belief but let's examine what this belief is based on. With regards to the vaccine, I have confidence that it will work because the mRNA technology used in some of the vaccines has been around for at least 15 years so it was no surprise that it was developed so quickly. The vaccine went through rigorous accelerated testing . The companies developing the vaccines had to submit their testing results in order to get emergency approval for use. Faulty data was the reason AZ was paused and once they cleaned up the data, they were able to resume distribution so there was no reason to "feel" that the vaccines would be successful.

Now let's talk about flat-earth - what is this "belief" based on? Bullshit - that's what because there is no scientific data supporting the flat-earth belief but you know what flat earthers could do? Charter a boat, bring some real scientists, document the data and find the edge of the earth but there is no way they would do this because they're lazy. They just want the luxury of saying they are right and everyone else is wrong simply because they "feel" that they are right. They run from the hard work it takes to come up with a working scientific theory. But if they did this and came up with hard data, I would then have to reconsider. Sp
oiler alert - they won't.

I don't dismiss the power of nature to help with healing and I absolutely agree that we hurt ourselves with poor dieting habits, smoking etc. I'm with you in this.

But I also don't believe in woo......

lonestar

Quote from: kingshmegland on May 28, 2021, 09:47:33 AM
Quote from: lonestar on May 28, 2021, 09:39:31 AM
Quote from: kingshmegland on May 28, 2021, 09:27:18 AM
I've worked in a warehouse (Wal Mart Distribution Center) throughout the pandemic.  It's wasn't bad at all.  Honestly, the masks in the heat in the summertime was the only hard part for us.  Wal Mart has over 2300 employees here and I have 20 employees and not one employee came down with the virus.  Some Wal Mart employees did but all followed protocols and were out 14 days.  Overall it went smoother then I expected.

At the Whole Foods I work my second job at, we have around 400 employees. During the peak here between Dec and Jan, we probably had north of 20 people test positive, but through tracing it was shown that none of them were an employee to employee transmission. I feel that spoke volumes to the protocols that the store put into place concerning masking and sanitation.

My own opinion is that most caught it in a private environment.  Not in large corporations who set protocols correctly.

It was stated many times that the top spreader events were family gatherings.

Skeever

Quote from: darkshade on May 27, 2021, 05:49:06 PM
Quote from: kirksnosehair on May 27, 2021, 03:09:43 PM
The transition periods tend to be a shit show.  Transitioning from normal life to pandemic life took a couple of months for things to start running smoothly and I think transitioning back out of the pandemic will be just as topsy-turvy for a couple of months then things will smooth out and this will become a series of "outbreaks" confined to regional areas. 


We'll probably spike back up in the fall and early winter but hopefully enough people will be vaccinated by then to mitigate it to the point of nuisance rather than catastrophe like we've had over the last 15 months


Time will tell

I think there are more Americans with natural Immunity that happened to coincide with mass pharma injections.

If you really think this, I would say you are underappreciating the experiences others have had. And this is nothing new or unique to you. I've noticed this on both sides of the "two worlds" we live in since the pandemic. There are people who never really stopped doing what they were doing before, only with some added restrictions, who think "you're kidding right" when they run into people who have been locked down and only going out occasionally. And then there are people who have not left their homes for anything but bare essentials, oblivious to the reality that a great number of people are just living life almost normally. Because of my own family situation, my family has pretty much been in the "lockdown" category, and we aren't the only ones. My wife and I have often talked about how it seems like every other family we know are either doing what we do, or not doing anything differently than before. But there is no way the many tens of millions of people who've been "locked down" developed any kind of natural immunity like that. Given your opinions on the subject, I would not be surprised if I learned that you did not change a single thing about your lifestyle that you were not forced to change during the pandemic. That would be your choice, one I do not really respect, but at least maybe understand on some level. But just because you or others may have been that way does not mean you get to erase the lived experiences of millions of others who have followed the advice more or less and dismiss the vaccination efforts as "natural immunity". But I would also guess that there is absolutely no way of explaining statistically what we have seen in the last several months without considering the role of vaccines, either, no matter how you may personally feel about "big pharma".

Ben_Jamin

#9090
Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 10:21:30 AM
Now let's talk about flat-earth - what is this "belief" based on? Bullshit - that's what because there is no scientific data supporting the flat-earth belief but you know what flat earthers could do? Charter a boat, bring some real scientists, document the data and find the edge of the earth but there is no way they would do this because they're lazy. They just want the luxury of saying they are right and everyone else is wrong simply because they "feel" that they are right. They run from the hard work it takes to come up with a working scientific theory. But if they did this and came up with hard data, I would then have to reconsider. Spoiler alert - they won't.

But, this was the science and belief held by some people before they were able to, you know, fly and travel the world. Before that man, took the initiative, to build a machine, or charter a boat, and set out to see for himself. And yet, people still didn't believe him, their Trust wasn't there for them to Believe his word, and take his word for it.

Science is based wholeheartedly on Trust. And Distrust, is why you have other scientists going out to disprove the others words, and findings.

Science, may very well end up proving a religion was created out of a lie, and it is in fact, a cult that grew immensely. Because people, in turn, took one mans words as Gospel.

Unless, that man was in fact an alien that came from a UFO.... :corn

It's damn near impossible for the average man to just charter a boat, bring in "real scientists", document the data, and find the edge of the earth. It's costs money, and resources, and resources and money are not infinite. And honestly, if I could easily do it, I definitely would. I think a lot of people most definitely would be glad to.

If you actually look up at the sky and look from East to West to North to South, you can see a sort of a spherical quality to the atmosphere. Just looking at the pattern the sun moves from East to West, should tell you this. The Sun in winter is shorter, and longer in the summer, meaning short and longer days. The Sun rises more south in winter, and more North in the summer.  And the moon also has its cycles, that sometimes correlate with the sun and this causes Eclipses. This understanding came from living. And when that living was disrupted, so was that knowledge disrupted from being taught.

So I don't know how you can't understand this just from looking and living in the world...Must not be paying attention at all to life, and living in the cave with a veil over the eyes. They probably just need to get outside more.  :lol


Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 10:21:30 AM
I have no problem if someone wants to say that science is a belief but let's examine what this belief is based on. With regards to the vaccine, I have confidence that it will work because the mRNA technology used in some of the vaccines has been around for at least 15 years so it was no surprise that it was developed so quickly. The vaccine went through rigorous accelerated testing . The companies developing the vaccines had to submit their testing results in order to get emergency approval for use. Faulty data was the reason AZ was paused and once they cleaned up the data, they were able to resume distribution so there was no reason to "feel" that the vaccines would be successful.

I agree, and understand the benefits of vaccines. I just don't see them as the end all solution to the issues we have regarding our health and diseases. The ideas, and solutions, that we could take, that I feel and know we can do, are more long term, and are not easy, quick-fix solutions. These require hard-work and dedication, and really, an entire change of mindset....Myself included.

Because, we as humans, create our own problems, and can therefore, create solutions that can solve these problems. Without, turning to "The Other" or reliance on an outside entity. I do believe there is an outside entity, but also, that outside entity, wants us to do as much as we can do ourselves, without relying on it for sustenance. And that's all it wants us to realize and do, so that we can have a world where every living thing can have their freedoms and live peacefully, not just humans live on this world. Yet, for some reason, we believe we own it and can control it. Yet, the world always proves us wrong.


My issue with current Science is this...How where those "Scientists" to figure out the other "uncivilized" cultures didn't understand and know that same "Science", when they assumed them to be savage and less than capable of grasping the knowledge they are so proud of knowing and regarding themselves as the know-all-end-all true way of knowing and understanding?


By the way, I am appreciating you responding. It's good that we can have these discussions civilly.  :tup

Stadler

#9091
Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 10:21:30 AM
This is why I feel science is also a belief. Because people just have and need to see the science first to believe if whatever is true or not. People need hard evidence, and sometimes that hard evidence isn't there. And Science is still trying to understand these unknown phenomenons of life. We humans do not know everything, and what we do know may not actually be truth, but our own perceptions at the time. As we evolve and grow, we understand more. Intelligence is measured by knowledge, and not everyone has the same understanding of that knowledge. Most cultures have this knowledge, but it's their own Interpretation of that knowledge, and breaking the communication barrier of language will help to understand the knowledge they possess. And you will find that they understand many of the things science explains, and even things that science can't explain, yet. And due to the language and communication barrier, it's sometimes hard to explain so the other can comprehend and understand.

The problem is, of course, that there is a difference between the data itself - fact, not belief - and the conclusions drawn from that data.   I have written about this numerous times:  I have ZERO DOUBT that the average temperatures of the Earth is higher now than it was 100 or 200 years ago.  It's not up for discussion.   I have ZERO DOUBT that the polar ice caps are smaller now in the same timeframe.  This isn't opinion; it can be measured, and those measurements replicated accordingly.   But then there is the next step:  what does that MEAN, and who/what caused it?   For me personally there is LITTLE doubt -  not zero, but damn close - that mankind had some role in that.  Then there's the "what role?" question.   1%?  50%?  100%?  I have a lot of doubt that it's 100%.  Now we're veering into trust and belief.   And I will say this, I've had to work VERY hard to separate my position on our percentage role from the agenda of MANY scientists around the world.  Many are very good, and deal only in data and decisions.  Others, not so much, and we undoubtedly live in an age of skepticism, cyncism and hyperbole.  Even the great (no sarcasm) Dr. Fauci copped to engaging in this.   There are too many people that take the approach that "moderation doesn't get the job done".   It doesn't "catch eyeballs".   

And then, of course, you get to the "what should we do about it" and at that point I'm fading out, because for me, that's, at least here in the States, an almost entirely political discussion.   Unfortunately, in our divisive, dysfunctional environment, the "SCIENCE!" card gets thrown around a lot.  "You don't agree with carbon taxing?  DENIER!"   That, of course, is not at all helped by idiots like Jim Inhoff, walking into the Congressional chambers with a snowball and making snide remarks about the entire concept.


QuoteI have no problem if someone wants to say that science is a belief but let's examine what this belief is based on. With regards to the vaccine, I have confidence that it will work because the mRNA technology used in some of the vaccines has been around for at least 15 years so it was no surprise that it was developed so quickly. The vaccine went through rigorous accelerated testing . The companies developing the vaccines had to submit their testing results in order to get emergency approval for use. Faulty data was the reason AZ was paused and once they cleaned up the data, they were able to resume distribution so there was no reason to "feel" that the vaccines would be successful.

I don't dismiss the power of nature to help with healing and I absolutely agree that we hurt ourselves with poor dieting habits, smoking etc. I'm with you in this.

But I also don't believe in woo......

I deleted the flat-earth part, because it's a sort of more basic, more extreme example.  But that's not what we're talking about, and they shouldn't be conflated.  I don't know if you read Robert Ludlum, but he wrote the book on which "The Bourne Identity" is based.  I happen to love his writing, and I'm actually in the process of re-reading his bibliography.   I've read now 11 of his books over the past two months or so, and if I had a $1.00 for every paragraph that I thought "My god, I need to post that at DTF!", I'd be able to have Dream Theater play in my back yard.  I might even be able to pay Portnoy to show up, too.  All because what he wrote in a spy novel in 1977 is almost word-for-word applicable in today's environment. The idea of the vaccine conspiracy is FAR different than flat-earth theory.   

Who hasn't worked at a company where there are discussions going at the boss's boss's level, and you know you're not getting the whole story?   Who hasn't seen a movie (or TV show) where the "official version" and the "real version" are wildly different?   Now I get it, in the books and movies and TV there's a suspension of reality, where there aren't whistleblowers, there aren't office gossips, there isn't a huge social media presence (and when there is, it's dumbed down ridiculously), but there are a LOT of people that "feel" this all day every day. If it's in YOUR life at YOUR level, is it really that big a leap to suspect that it's in government, where there are elected offices, and MILLIONS of dollars at play?

Quick quiz, show of hands:  how many of you think that it's PLAUSIBLE that a CEO, when asked "what should we do with that toxic waste?" would answer "dump it down the drain and DON'T TELL ANYONE."?    Okay, everyone except Stadler.  Good.   Now change "CEO" to "Senator" and change "toxic waste" and plug in "all that cell phone data we get from the NSA?"   I don't know; maybe monitor it?  We KNOW that's happened, right?  Is it that much of a stretch to think that a Senator or a CEO would then fuck around with the government-led, but involving Big Pharma vaccine rollout?  I'm not arguing that it happened.  I don't think it did (I'm an Occam's Razor guy, to a point) but it's not always as bat-shit crazy as some people make it out to be.   Hell, Hoover allegedly used his files to blackmail half of all three branches if you believe the tales (and Ludlum's The Chancellor Manuscript). 

hunnus2000

Quote from: Stadler on May 28, 2021, 12:22:27 PM
Quote from: hunnus2000 on May 28, 2021, 10:21:30 AM
This is why I feel science is also a belief. Because people just have and need to see the science first to believe if whatever is true or not. People need hard evidence, and sometimes that hard evidence isn't there. And Science is still trying to understand these unknown phenomenons of life. We humans do not know everything, and what we do know may not actually be truth, but our own perceptions at the time. As we evolve and grow, we understand more. Intelligence is measured by knowledge, and not everyone has the same understanding of that knowledge. Most cultures have this knowledge, but it's their own Interpretation of that knowledge, and breaking the communication barrier of language will help to understand the knowledge they possess. And you will find that they understand many of the things science explains, and even things that science can't explain, yet. And due to the language and communication barrier, it's sometimes hard to explain so the other can comprehend and understand.

The problem is, of course, that there is a difference between the data itself - fact, not belief - and the conclusions drawn from that data.   I have written about this numerous times:  I have ZERO DOUBT that the average temperatures of the Earth is higher now than it was 100 or 200 years ago.  It's not up for discussion.   I have ZERO DOUBT that the polar ice caps are smaller now in the same timeframe.  This isn't opinion; it can be measured, and those measurements replicated accordingly.   But then there is the next step:  what does that MEAN, and who/what caused it?   For me personally there is LITTLE doubt -  not zero, but damn close - that mankind had some role in that.  Then there's the "what role?" question.   1%?  50%?  100%?  I have a lot of doubt that it's 100%.  Now we're veering into trust and belief.   And I will say this, I've had to work VERY hard to separate my position on our percentage role from the agenda of MANY scientists around the world.  Many are very good, and deal only in data and decisions.  Others, not so much, and we undoubtedly live in an age of skepticism, cyncism and hyperbole.  Even the great (no sarcasm) Dr. Fauci copped to engaging in this.   There are too many people that take the approach that "moderation doesn't get the job done".   It doesn't "catch eyeballs".   

And then, of course, you get to the "what should we do about it" and at that point I'm fading out, because for me, that's, at least here in the States, an almost entirely political discussion.   Unfortunately, in our divisive, dysfunctional environment, the "SCIENCE!" card gets thrown around a lot.  "You don't agree with carbon taxing?  DENIER!"   That, of course, is not at all helped by idiots like Jim Inhoff, walking into the Congressional chambers with a snowball and making snide remarks about the entire concept.


QuoteI have no problem if someone wants to say that science is a belief but let's examine what this belief is based on. With regards to the vaccine, I have confidence that it will work because the mRNA technology used in some of the vaccines has been around for at least 15 years so it was no surprise that it was developed so quickly. The vaccine went through rigorous accelerated testing . The companies developing the vaccines had to submit their testing results in order to get emergency approval for use. Faulty data was the reason AZ was paused and once they cleaned up the data, they were able to resume distribution so there was no reason to "feel" that the vaccines would be successful.

I don't dismiss the power of nature to help with healing and I absolutely agree that we hurt ourselves with poor dieting habits, smoking etc. I'm with you in this.

But I also don't believe in woo......

I deleted the flat-earth part, because it's a sort of more basic, more extreme example.  But that's not what we're talking about, and they shouldn't be conflated.  I don't know if you read Robert Ludlum, but he wrote the book on which "The Bourne Identity" is based.  I happen to love his writing, and I'm actually in the process of re-reading his bibliography.   I've read now 11 of his books over the past two months or so, and if I had a $1.00 for every paragraph that I thought "My god, I need to post that at DTF!", I'd be able to have Dream Theater play in my back yard.  I might even be able to pay Portnoy to show up, too.  All because what he wrote in a spy novel in 1977 is almost word-for-word applicable in today's environment. The idea of the vaccine conspiracy is FAR different than flat-earth theory.   

Who hasn't worked at a company where there are discussions going at the boss's boss's level, and you know you're not getting the whole story?   Who hasn't seen a movie (or TV show) where the "official version" and the "real version" are wildly different?   Now I get it, in the books and movies and TV there's a suspension of reality, where there aren't whistleblowers, there aren't office gossips, there isn't a huge social media presence (and when there is, it's dumbed down ridiculously), but there are a LOT of people that "feel" this all day every day. If it's in YOUR life at YOUR level, is it really that big a leap to suspect that it's in government, where there are elected offices, and MILLIONS of dollars at play?

Quick quiz, show of hands:  how many of you think that it's PLAUSIBLE that a CEO, when asked "what should we do with that toxic waste?" would answer "dump it down the drain and DON'T TELL ANYONE."?    Okay, everyone except Stadler.  Good.   Now change "CEO" to "Senator" and change "toxic waste" and plug in "all that cell phone data we get from the NSA?"   I don't know; maybe monitor it?  We KNOW that's happened, right?  Is it that much of a stretch to think that a Senator or a CEO would then fuck around with the government-led, but involving Big Pharma vaccine rollout?  I'm not arguing that it happened.  I don't think it did (I'm an Occam's Razor guy, to a point) but it's not always as bat-shit crazy as some people make it out to be.   Hell, Hoover allegedly used his files to blackmail half of all three branches if you believe the tales (and Ludlum's The Chancellor Manuscript).

First - I did not write the first part of this post in bold and the way this was posted, it looks like I did write it.

To the second part of you're post, I have no clue what you're trying to get at.

XJDenton

Sorry to interrupt, but this thread is pretty damn long. New one incoming.

XJDenton