Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 429792 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5285 on: September 10, 2020, 07:56:16 AM »
Haha... Yeah, I'm not saying I agree with them, but there is a significant portion of america that would say that standing up against the government overstepping their bounds is much more important than protesting a handful of police shootings.

I'm unclear how ensuring public health (when citizens won't take measures themselves) is out of bounds for government?  There are laws for food preparation, seatbelts, smoking restrictions, drug use, warning labels.  I don't see anyone in the food supply chain  losing their shit for having to wear a hair nets.

Those are of varying degree of "ensuring public health".    But more specifically, there are two components to that:  what if you don't believe it's government's job to "ensure public health", and what if you do and yet find deep hypocrisy in that mission (as I do)?    I can wrap my hands around "ensuring public health", but don't get me started on how badly I believe government ACTUALLY does it.    So much of what passes for "ensuring public health" is a sop to one industry or activist group or another.    No serious efforts to "ensure public health" can be claimed as long as our obesity rate is approaching 50%, as long as our mental health is deteriorating as fast as Paul Stanley's voice, as long as we use/abuse both prescription and illegal drugs at a rate that makes other countries look like rank amateurs, as long as "healthcare reform" is simply "penalize those that don't pony up"...   


All valid points, and I don't disagree with you at all.  The flaw however is that, while you are right on every point above, all of those issues only affect the health of the individual.  Mental illness and drug abuse can have indirect impacts on society, but those matters don't directly affect the health of other people.  To that end, my example of seatbelts isn't the greatest.  But the government 'over-reach' about masks is within their scope the same way they should ensure restaurants refrigerate their food and have running water to clean dishes.  Aspects that effect others' health are within the gub'ts responsibility, no?

It's another discussion for another thread, I suppose, but I don't hold this "individual" versus "group" harm difference to be sacred.  I understand this is not the common view (and it's a big part of the reason that some of my points of view seem out of whack with the zeitgeist), but I think all these things are interrelated, and I think - in America circa 2020 - we do a shit job of addressing these things on that level.   "Shooting?  Ban guns, done and dusted.  Let's move on."   It doesn't work that way.   I think the increasing levels of some of the things I listed DO have impacts. They DO affect the health of other people.   Whether it's healthcare reform or in the way the systems we rely on have to be compromised in order to address them, or the way that we have to assimilate these issues into our society.

Sorry, off tangent, here. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5286 on: September 10, 2020, 08:01:04 AM »
For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

Offline ErHaO

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5287 on: September 10, 2020, 08:51:36 AM »
For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I am not saying it isn't/can't be, I am saying the context of a massive annual festival where people have fun is very different than a movement with the sole focus of protesting. And I am saying I sincerely doubt most people where there as a form of structural protest against government regulations, or at least that being the primary reason.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5288 on: September 10, 2020, 08:56:21 AM »
For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

While I fully agree with what you're saying, isn't weed actually a bad example of this, though? Decades of use have shown that it's NOT the harmful substance that the government has propagated it to be, and even when it's become legal/decriminalized in many states, it is still considered as dangerous as heroin at the federal level. It's a bad example because the government simply has dragged ass (or kept its ass bolted to the ground, rather) and the Obama administration itself said they'd leave it up to the individual states to decide what to do with it. So you don't even have an agreement between the federal and state and local governments on how to handle it - what do you expect people to do when shops are opening up selling a legal(?) product?
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5289 on: September 10, 2020, 10:32:20 AM »
For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

Of course. But it is considered a form of protest if you are civil. It's Civil Disobedience. I don't really agree with it either, I was just bringing it up, because people do use that excuse, as some of these Sturgis people likely did.

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5290 on: September 10, 2020, 10:35:48 AM »
For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

While I fully agree with what you're saying, isn't weed actually a bad example of this, though? Decades of use have shown that it's NOT the harmful substance that the government has propagated it to be, and even when it's become legal/decriminalized in many states, it is still considered as dangerous as heroin at the federal level. It's a bad example because the government simply has dragged ass (or kept its ass bolted to the ground, rather) and the Obama administration itself said they'd leave it up to the individual states to decide what to do with it. So you don't even have an agreement between the federal and state and local governments on how to handle it - what do you expect people to do when shops are opening up selling a legal(?) product?

We are still awaiting the federal to at least Decriminalize it. That's where a lot of the issues are. If you Decriminalize it, you stop the jail sentences, you stop some of the unnecessary discrimination against PoC from the police.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5291 on: September 10, 2020, 11:26:52 AM »
For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

While I fully agree with what you're saying, isn't weed actually a bad example of this, though? Decades of use have shown that it's NOT the harmful substance that the government has propagated it to be, and even when it's become legal/decriminalized in many states, it is still considered as dangerous as heroin at the federal level. It's a bad example because the government simply has dragged ass (or kept its ass bolted to the ground, rather) and the Obama administration itself said they'd leave it up to the individual states to decide what to do with it. So you don't even have an agreement between the federal and state and local governments on how to handle it - what do you expect people to do when shops are opening up selling a legal(?) product?

Weed is the best example of this, for the very reasons you noted.  Laws aren't for convenience.  They are there for a reason, good or bad, out of date or relevant.   If we don't like them, change them.  But they are still the law.  I chose weed, because we can all sort of get our arms around that idea of "Yeah, that makes sense; it's harmless, let's do it and, um, PROTEST!".   It's less of a polarizing issue; not wearing masks is a shitty form of protest, because it's too easily dismissed as "fucking stupid".  I think - and I may be the minority on this - that the protests in the streets on BLM are the same; they are too easily dismissed as "mindless violence". 

"Protests" are only good if the entity that can do something about it is listening and reacts appropriately.  Part of that is protesting in a way that also gives the acting party something to consider and a means to change the status quo.   America is fucked post-social media, because we've been ingrained with this notion that if shame and embarass people enough, they will do our bidding.   That completely ignores that the underlying reasons are the wrong ones, and the effected changes are likely lip service and won't result in lasting, meaningful changes in behavior (does any of this ring a bell?)

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5292 on: September 10, 2020, 12:08:02 PM »
For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

While I fully agree with what you're saying, isn't weed actually a bad example of this, though? Decades of use have shown that it's NOT the harmful substance that the government has propagated it to be, and even when it's become legal/decriminalized in many states, it is still considered as dangerous as heroin at the federal level. It's a bad example because the government simply has dragged ass (or kept its ass bolted to the ground, rather) and the Obama administration itself said they'd leave it up to the individual states to decide what to do with it. So you don't even have an agreement between the federal and state and local governments on how to handle it - what do you expect people to do when shops are opening up selling a legal(?) product?

Weed is the best example of this, for the very reasons you noted.  Laws aren't for convenience.  They are there for a reason, good or bad, out of date or relevant.   If we don't like them, change them.  But they are still the law.  I chose weed, because we can all sort of get our arms around that idea of "Yeah, that makes sense; it's harmless, let's do it and, um, PROTEST!".   It's less of a polarizing issue; not wearing masks is a shitty form of protest, because it's too easily dismissed as "fucking stupid".  I think - and I may be the minority on this - that the protests in the streets on BLM are the same; they are too easily dismissed as "mindless violence". 

"Protests" are only good if the entity that can do something about it is listening and reacts appropriately.  Part of that is protesting in a way that also gives the acting party something to consider and a means to change the status quo.   America is fucked post-social media, because we've been ingrained with this notion that if shame and embarass people enough, they will do our bidding.   That completely ignores that the underlying reasons are the wrong ones, and the effected changes are likely lip service and won't result in lasting, meaningful changes in behavior (does any of this ring a bell?)

I believe there have been many efforts to try to get lawmakers to at least change weed's status from a level 1 substance to something... lesser. But politicians won't do anything about it, saying they 'need more studies.' But they can't get studies done because it's a level 1 substance, considered on the same level as something like heroin and meth. So you think people should just give up and deal with that, and wait to elect people in for a formality, even though states are legally selling it now? I don't get it, especially when you bring up social media which came long after the demonization and fear mongering the politicians did with weed. It was literally only made illegal to further incarcerate black people and hippies by the Nixon administration.

So what do you do when laws get wrongly put into place, and politicians spend decades not doing anything about it despite hearing an uproar from people that's only gotten louder and louder each year, to the point where now a bunch of our states are selling it legally and using that tax revenue for good, and yet it's still federally on the same level as meth? Just sit on our hands and wait for lawmakers to pull their heads out of their asses because 'that's the way it should be'? Nah, dude. Not everything is equal or just here. Look at people who are still serving life sentences for selling a little weed even if their state has made it legal. It's crazy.

I'm not saying this applies to, like, wielding a firearm, but in this case, fuck the federal law, protest/push back on it, if lawmakers won't do it, the people will eventually take it upon themselves. Good luck trying to incarcerate everybody who smokes weed now, it's like drinking, innumerable people partake every day.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 12:13:03 PM by The Walrus »
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5293 on: September 10, 2020, 12:39:46 PM »
For pretty much all charity events I have attended in my life, I sincerely doubt the majority of people attending are there for anything else than the fun party. Point being, I am convinced the same applies for Sturgis. If really people want to protest the government, they would be doing that instead of partying like usual. Because let's be honest, events like that are fun to be, unlike riots/protests (for most sensible people anyways, I know there are always those that enjoy the chaos). So I really disagree that the protests are comparable to an annual rally/festival.

Disobeying orders is a form of protest.

I'm really uncomfortable with this.  I don't disagree that that is the mindset today (at least here in America) but I disagree with that approach.  Just because you don't like something, just because you don't agree with the regulatory scheme, doesn't mean you can ignore it.   And I'm not limiting this to just masks; extrapolate this out to other things.  Disagree with that groundwater regulatory scheme?  I protest by dumping chemicals into the water! 

I think that is just a way of giving license to just doing WTF you want; weed is great example of this in recent years.

While I fully agree with what you're saying, isn't weed actually a bad example of this, though? Decades of use have shown that it's NOT the harmful substance that the government has propagated it to be, and even when it's become legal/decriminalized in many states, it is still considered as dangerous as heroin at the federal level. It's a bad example because the government simply has dragged ass (or kept its ass bolted to the ground, rather) and the Obama administration itself said they'd leave it up to the individual states to decide what to do with it. So you don't even have an agreement between the federal and state and local governments on how to handle it - what do you expect people to do when shops are opening up selling a legal(?) product?

Weed is the best example of this, for the very reasons you noted.  Laws aren't for convenience.  They are there for a reason, good or bad, out of date or relevant.   If we don't like them, change them.  But they are still the law.  I chose weed, because we can all sort of get our arms around that idea of "Yeah, that makes sense; it's harmless, let's do it and, um, PROTEST!".   It's less of a polarizing issue; not wearing masks is a shitty form of protest, because it's too easily dismissed as "fucking stupid".  I think - and I may be the minority on this - that the protests in the streets on BLM are the same; they are too easily dismissed as "mindless violence". 

"Protests" are only good if the entity that can do something about it is listening and reacts appropriately.  Part of that is protesting in a way that also gives the acting party something to consider and a means to change the status quo.   America is fucked post-social media, because we've been ingrained with this notion that if shame and embarass people enough, they will do our bidding.   That completely ignores that the underlying reasons are the wrong ones, and the effected changes are likely lip service and won't result in lasting, meaningful changes in behavior (does any of this ring a bell?)

I believe there have been many efforts to try to get lawmakers to at least change weed's status from a level 1 substance to something... lesser. But politicians won't do anything about it, saying they 'need more studies.' But they can't get studies done because it's a level 1 substance, considered on the same level as something like heroin and meth. So you think people should just give up and deal with that, and wait to elect people in for a formality, even though states are legally selling it now? I don't get it, especially when you bring up social media which came long after the demonization and fear mongering the politicians did with weed. It was literally only made illegal to further incarcerate black people and hippies by the Nixon administration.

So what do you do when laws get wrongly put into place, and politicians spend decades not doing anything about it despite hearing an uproar from people that's only gotten louder and louder each year, to the point where now a bunch of our states are selling it legally and using that tax revenue for good, and yet it's still federally on the same level as meth? Just sit on our hands and wait for lawmakers to pull their heads out of their asses because 'that's the way it should be'? Nah, dude. Not everything is equal or just here. Look at people who are still serving life sentences for selling a little weed even if their state has made it legal. It's crazy.

I'm not saying this applies to, like, wielding a firearm, but in this case, fuck the federal law, protest/push back on it, if lawmakers won't do it, the people will eventually take it upon themselves. Good luck trying to incarcerate everybody who smokes weed now, it's like drinking, innumerable people partake every day.

No, no.  I'm not saying any of that.  One still has to lobby for change for it to happen; it's not going to change by itself.  I'm just saying that saying "Fuck it, I'm just smoking it" and bitching about the consequences isn't a protest.  :) 

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5294 on: September 10, 2020, 12:44:48 PM »
" I'm just saying that saying "Fuck it, I'm just smoking it" and bitching about the consequences isn't a protest.  :) "

Yeah, in this case, I'm 100% disagreeing with that for the reasons I just laid out. It's definitely a protest, if one can argue why. Not just because they're lighting up in front of an officer just because they saw someone else do it, but because they have historical facts under their belt and a good reason why it is silly to wait for septuagenarian career politicians to die so someone else can get in and maybe move the needle a fraction of an inch towards something reasonable. We're talking generations of waiting for 'something to be done' about it the right way. Our government runs slow as molasses. It's inefficient, unhelpful, and causes more problems than it tends to solve. You can't tell an entire generation of people that they can't protest the consequences of outdated and frankly illogical laws when they're already doing it. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

The law has to make sense in order for 'bitching about the consequences isn't a protest' to make sense.

... P/R? What's that?  :biggrin:  :lol
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 01:16:00 PM by The Walrus »
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Offline T-ski

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5295 on: September 12, 2020, 09:27:09 AM »
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5296 on: September 13, 2020, 06:09:51 AM »
Good job Canada...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-canada-idCAKBN26301J

In the famous words of Winston Wolff... let's not start suckin each others' dicks just yet.

Case counts in more than a few Provinces have been rising over the past week.  Ontario just had 3 straight days over 200 for the first time in a couple of months.  In absolute terms, that's pretty low in a Province with a population of 13M (ish), and the majority of those counts are from Toronto and the region immediately to the northwest of it (where I used to live), but it's a trend.
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Offline emtee

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5297 on: September 15, 2020, 09:59:45 AM »
We're down to only 6 positive patients! I'm rejoicing. It's been a brutal 6 months.

Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5298 on: September 15, 2020, 10:33:06 AM »
There is a university in my county and since classes have resumed, our counts are skyrocketing. Worse then anytime during the pandemic. The majority of the positive cases are people 30 and under. This was even before college came back. Now those numbers are higher. Our youth are not the brightest. This has put us on the warning list for the state for the first time as well.

Then I see that anti-mask rally in Oregon or wherever that was. We deserve everything we get.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5299 on: September 15, 2020, 11:30:32 AM »
All public universities here in North Carolina went back to class in person.

Within a week, almost all had switched back to online-only.  Not sure what they were expecting.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5300 on: September 15, 2020, 11:36:00 AM »
All public universities here in North Carolina went back to class in person.

Within a week, almost all had switched back to online-only.  Not sure what they were expecting.


They trusted the president, rather than scientists, every time (13 in the link below) he said the "problem will go away":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8yOv4PwttM

« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 11:41:18 AM by Chino »

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5301 on: September 15, 2020, 11:37:04 AM »
Parent in my state is suing a school for the mask requirement.

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/tennessee-mom-sues-mask-mandate-school/51-0f3fddf3-f893-4b2a-ad53-8ee1c8ff6f36

Quote
“Yes, people have said, 'why aren’t you protecting other people?' And I said I am protecting people. I am protecting so many people. I’m protecting your rights,” Murchison said.

 :facepalm:

Offline Chino

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5302 on: September 15, 2020, 11:40:38 AM »
Parent in my state is suing a school for the mask requirement.

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/tennessee-mom-sues-mask-mandate-school/51-0f3fddf3-f893-4b2a-ad53-8ee1c8ff6f36

Quote
“Yes, people have said, 'why aren’t you protecting other people?' And I said I am protecting people. I am protecting so many people. I’m protecting your rights,” Murchison said.

 :facepalm:

Unreal.

““He can’t concentrate and doesn’t like it,” said Heather Murchison, Sanfilippo’s mother.

So when Sanfilippo showed up for school, Murchison said he was placed in in-school suspension.

Murchison said she tried to get a doctor’s note, citing her son’s anxiety, but said she spoke with six physicians who said they wouldn’t provide the note for political reasons.”


If I have a son who can't focus when he's wearing pants because of anxiety, can I sue when he can't go to school hanging brain?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5303 on: September 15, 2020, 11:42:50 AM »
All public universities here in North Carolina went back to class in person.

Within a week, almost all had switched back to online-only.  Not sure what they were expecting.

A batch of kids I know all went to a school in Florida, and they had an outbreak there as well.  The school expected that, but took what precautions they could, with the understanding and hope that, although they could not prevent, they could mitigate.  They have quarantined the kids who got it, and any they have come into contact with, and have been pretty consistent in their protocols.  So they are still moving forward and do not seem to be overly concerned. 

And that is in line with what we were originally told about "flattening the curve"--we were flattening it to give healthcare facilities time to ramp up and put systems into place to deal with it and not get overwhelmed, not eliminate the curve, which many believe to not be possible.
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5304 on: September 15, 2020, 11:44:13 AM »
Parent in my state is suing a school for the mask requirement.

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/tennessee-mom-sues-mask-mandate-school/51-0f3fddf3-f893-4b2a-ad53-8ee1c8ff6f36

Quote
“Yes, people have said, 'why aren’t you protecting other people?' And I said I am protecting people. I am protecting so many people. I’m protecting your rights,” Murchison said.

 :facepalm:

Unreal.

““He can’t concentrate and doesn’t like it,” said Heather Murchison, Sanfilippo’s mother.

So when Sanfilippo showed up for school, Murchison said he was placed in in-school suspension.

Murchison said she tried to get a doctor’s note, citing her son’s anxiety, but said she spoke with six physicians who said they wouldn’t provide the note for political reasons.”


If I have a son who can't focus when he's wearing pants because of anxiety, can I sue when he can't go to school hanging brain?

Yeah, people bring up that you're required to make accommodations for health issues, but they always neglect to note that they're required to make reasonable accommodations. Not wearing a mask amidst a pandemic doesn't seem reasonable.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5305 on: September 15, 2020, 12:10:17 PM »
For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?
That's a word salad - and take it from me, I know word salad
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5306 on: September 15, 2020, 12:10:56 PM »
For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

Devil's advocate: face shields look absolutely ridiculous and are large and cumbersome and I can't imagine they actually do a good job at keeping out particles since there's a huge open area right there. You're not using an angle grinder, you're going to the store.  :lol
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5307 on: September 15, 2020, 12:12:07 PM »
For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

Devil's advocate: face shields look absolutely ridiculous and are large and cumbersome

So's your beard!  :neverusethis:

Seriously though, your point?
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5308 on: September 15, 2020, 12:12:55 PM »
For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

Devil's advocate: face shields look absolutely ridiculous and are large and cumbersome

So's your beard!  :neverusethis:

Seriously though, your point?

My point is that it doesn't really mean anything to compare the two and act like those people have a responsibility to then use face shields. Face shields will protect you from respiratory particles LESS than a mask will unless you turn into Ant Man and are dodging them like bullets

also thanks gonna shave the beard now :neverusethis:
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Offline Chino

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5309 on: September 15, 2020, 12:14:40 PM »
For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

I work in a grocery store's kitchen on the weekends and rarely have to interact with customers not over the phone. We had a woman come in a few months ago claiming the anxiety thing. She went on and on about how she's taking three new medications related to anxiety being induced by the sight of others wearing masks, as well as the breathing problems they cause when she's forced to wear one. We offered to shop for her and bring the stuff to her car (waving the associated shopper and delivery fees), and she refused. We offered her a NIP face shield (not ideal, but better than nothing) so she could breath, and she said she couldn't because the curved surface of the shield and the fluorescent lights would trigger debilitating migraines. We then called the cops.

I don't care what anyone says. That woman was full of shit.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5310 on: September 15, 2020, 12:25:51 PM »
For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

I work in a grocery store's kitchen on the weekends and rarely have to interact with customers not over the phone. We had a woman come in a few months ago claiming the anxiety thing. She went on and on about how she's taking three new medications related to anxiety being induced by the sight of others wearing masks, as well as the breathing problems they cause when she's forced to wear one. We offered to shop for her and bring the stuff to her car (waving the associated shopper and delivery fees), and she refused. We offered her a NIP face shield (not ideal, but better than nothing) so she could breath, and she said she couldn't because the curved surface of the shield and the fluorescent lights would trigger debilitating migraines. We then called the cops.

I don't care what anyone says. That woman was full of shit.

I'm pretty sure that the majority of people who say THEY have a health reason for not wearing a mask are full of shit.  If the health issue was legit, and they still cared about public health, they would be willing to wear a shield for the bolded reason above.  To Chino's example, it's hard to believe it wasn't an ideological stand about "freedoms" and "Constitutional Rights"
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5311 on: September 15, 2020, 12:37:10 PM »
Haha... so we have 4 elementary schools in this small town, 1 middle school, and 1 high school. Every other day now I have seen letters from all of them saying that one or two kids from the schools have been diagnosed with COVID, and some staff too. So they're doing half-days at school two days a week, where half the students attend school. Then they have 2 days from home. But if a teacher has COVID, their classes have to be remote for 14 days. So then kids attending school... still have to do remote learning? How are students getting ANYTHING meaningful accomplished when things are constantly being changed around? I am amused/fascinated by all of this. Hell even the marchind band kids have to have masks which makes me want to double over laughing. Good luck, fellow flute players.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5312 on: September 15, 2020, 12:38:17 PM »
For anyone who says they can't wear a mask for health purposes, then I trust a face-shield is not an issue?

Devil's advocate: face shields look absolutely ridiculous and are large and cumbersome

So's your beard!  :neverusethis:

Seriously though, your point?

My point is that it doesn't really mean anything to compare the two and act like those people have a responsibility to then use face shields. Face shields will protect you from respiratory particles LESS than a mask will unless you turn into Ant Man and are dodging them like bullets

also thanks gonna shave the beard now :neverusethis:

Unless I am misunderstanding your point, that isn't accurate.  Neither fabric/paper masks nor face shields protect the wearer, at least, not appreciably.  They help protect others from infection by the wearer by catching a great deal of exhaled particles and/or deflecting them downward to they do not hang in the air long enough to be inhaled by others.

N95 masks (and others with the right types of filters) are the opposite and protect the wearer in a contaminated environment. 

So, yes, shields are generally understood to be a viable alternative to the typical fabric/paper mask.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5313 on: September 15, 2020, 12:41:34 PM »
What I'm saying is that the mask actually covers your face. Does it stop everything? No. The face shield has a gigantic open area for any particles to sweep up into. There's nothing directly blocking the airway, so just because you shield the particles from the front of your face... doesn't mean they won't slip up under them. At least with masks you can tighten them around your face and it's directly in front of the airway *and* it will directly mitigate the amount of particles spread. Face shield has nothing blocking it, therefore less protection than a facial covering.

(also I never said they weren't understood to be a viable alternative I'm arguing my view on their effectiveness relative to wearing something right over yer mouf)

I have and use N95s so it doesn't really matter to me, just playing devil's advocate against Chad's point, but I personally would never wear a face shield because they're large, look silly and, like I said, I feel like they offer *less* protection than a mask. Also the face shield could probably fog up or something gross idk
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Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5314 on: September 15, 2020, 12:58:53 PM »
........and we just got notified of a positive case at my son's high school. I'm actually surprised that it took this long. Still, under a month to get there. No one in this area bothers to wear a mask. Well, except for my family.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5315 on: September 15, 2020, 12:59:35 PM »
Also the face shield could probably fog up or something gross idk

See Andy Reid  :lol

Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5316 on: September 15, 2020, 01:11:16 PM »
Also the face shield could probably fog up or something gross idk

See Andy Reid  :lol

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5317 on: September 15, 2020, 01:14:57 PM »
He looks like Iron Man. 

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5318 on: September 15, 2020, 04:15:11 PM »
What I'm saying is that the mask actually covers your face. Does it stop everything? No. The face shield has a gigantic open area for any particles to sweep up into.

You aren't entirely wrong, but generally speaking, gravity eventually pulls things down.  I'm not trying to be facetious, but as I said earlier, the face shield is better than nothing - for both the wearer, and for others around.  Respiratory droplets exhaled by the wearer won't get as far as they would without it; most droplets from others will slam right into the shield like Wiley Coyote into the side of a mountain.

Yes, there's a risk some will slip past the goalie, but in that analogy, it's far easier to score into an empty net, than with someone (thing) blocking your way.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5319 on: September 15, 2020, 04:53:17 PM »
I had a vendor come in to work on a server yesterday, lets just say a large and older dude.  Guy seemed to not be able to wear his mask or wear it properly.  Either his nose was out or it was just off.  Had to tell him to put it on fully.  So ridiculous that you need to tell someone this when they come into your place of work and there's signs EVERYWHERE.  His excuse was he can't breathe and I literally heard him huffing and puffing likely becasue he is very overweight so just walking was enough to make him struggle breathing.  I'd say, it's better to just wear the face shield at that point.  But also, maybe, just maybe, it's time to look in the mirror and lose a few pounds so you can breathe fine even without a mask?  I really think this is why the US numbers are so high, we are such an unhealthy group of people here and that includes myself but at least I'm working on it.