Coronavirus

[jingle.boy]

Two things. For anyone who says it’s hard to breathe with a mask on, I trust they are more than willing to wear a face shield?  If not, than this excuse is just that ... and excuse to try and justify why you don’t round to wear one.

Second, since when is my body my choice even a thing?  Tell ya what.  Go to a playground (when they open) naked and spank your monkey. See how much “choice” you have then. Also, if this truly is a thing, take your employer to the local human rights tribunal, or hire an employment lawyer. I eagerly await the outcome.

I’d really like to believe your just being an immense troll, but me thinks your just immensely selfish.

[lordxizor]

How do you feel about forcing people to wear a mask?

If people are too indifferent to care about harm they are deliberately inflicting upon others, I think it is the government's job to force people to comply.

Not wearing a mask is very, very far from deliberately inflicting harm upon others.

True.  But unless you get a test, do you KNOW you don't have the virus?  So not wearing a mask, knowing that you MIGHT be infecting other people, is called what then?  Intentional Negligence?  Is that ok?

I would say intentional negligence would be going out when you know you're sick and not taking precautions, or with Covid going out at all I guess. And no, that would not be ok.

First I would say knowing you have it, and interacting with others while not taking precautions, is more like assault.

So then what is going out without a mask on, not knowing if you have Covid-19 or not?  You KNOW there is a risk that you might be asymptomatic and might give it to others?  That seems like intentional negligence to me.

Maybe I'm wrong.  Sure wouldn't be the first time.

This is literally always the case. I could have the flu and not know it. I could have a cold and not know it. I could have Ebola and not know it. Any one of those might kill someone, especially someone immune comprimised. So is it always negligent to go out without a mask on? I would argue if you think it is now, then it always is. Why is a 1% chance of dying of Covid negligence, but a 0.1% chance of dying of the flu not? It's the arbitrariness of it all that bugs me, as I've stated many times in this thread. Normally people wouldn't bat an eye if a person with the flu went to the pharmacy to pick up some meds, but now, going out with Covid is assault?

Just for the record (yet again), I like to play devil's advocate in this thread. I wear masks a lot, but not always. I don't think they're a huge deal usually.

[SwedishGoose]

You could even if you think not have some underlying issues which would make covid-19 really bad for you.
I have had people with no previous issues die around me and when autopsied it was found out that they had for instance a heart that was enlarged and died because of covid-19.
So just be careful out there.....

O

[eric42434224]

How do you feel about forcing people to wear a mask?

If people are too indifferent to care about harm they are deliberately inflicting upon others, I think it is the government's job to force people to comply.

Not wearing a mask is very, very far from deliberately inflicting harm upon others.

True.  But unless you get a test, do you KNOW you don't have the virus?  So not wearing a mask, knowing that you MIGHT be infecting other people, is called what then?  Intentional Negligence?  Is that ok?

I would say intentional negligence would be going out when you know you're sick and not taking precautions, or with Covid going out at all I guess. And no, that would not be ok.

First I would say knowing you have it, and interacting with others while not taking precautions, is more like assault.

So then what is going out without a mask on, not knowing if you have Covid-19 or not?  You KNOW there is a risk that you might be asymptomatic and might give it to others?  That seems like intentional negligence to me.

Maybe I'm wrong.  Sure wouldn't be the first time.

This is literally always the case. I could have the flu and not know it. I could have a cold and not know it. I could have Ebola and not know it. Any one of those might kill someone, especially someone immune comprimised. So is it always negligent to go out without a mask on? I would argue if you think it is now, then it always is. Why is a 1% chance of dying of Covid negligence, but a 0.1% chance of dying of the flu not? It's the arbitrariness of it all that bugs me, as I've stated many times in this thread. Normally people wouldn't bat an eye if a person with the flu went to the pharmacy to pick up some meds, but now, going out with Covid is assault?

Just for the record (yet again), I like to play devil's advocate in this thread. I wear masks a lot, but not always. I don't think they're a huge deal usually.

I get that you are playing Devils Advocate, and I appreciate you saying so for the record.

But we all have had this discussion before.  Isn't that just a logical fallacy of Reductio ad absurdum?  Couldn't we use that logic to say that we cant do anything ever, as anything we do technically might pose some risk to others?  I guess Society determines where these arbitrary lines are.  I get your point here, I really do.  But I guess that society makes a calculation at which point certain behaviors are expected, by weighing personal sacrifice (in this case VERY small) of the one, with the health of the many.  It looks like that decision has been made by the many, as the scale tipped just enough, and that is how society works.
I personally agree with it.  Many might not.  But I guess its like freedom of speech....you have the right, but there can be consequences.

[ErHaO]

If you look practically, focusing on death rates doesn't really paint the whole picture. As someone who works at a hospital I can tell you that when enough people get it, the floodgates will open, which then becomes a problem for anyone else needing certain types of medical attention, because full is full. If you let that go it's course, the death rates will increase, because treatable emergencies will not be treated anymore. They have actually made guidelines here to choose patients over others, as a result of the first wave. And the burden it put on healthcare is the entire reason why so many places went into lockdowns in the first place. All the other outbreaks we are familiar with over here just don't do that.

Furthermore, many people are ill for a long time and a whole lot, even mild cases, still have issues months after the fact. Myself included, though thankfully mild. Those hospitalised even have a chance on permanent lung damage, never being able to breathe normally again. Especially the ICU cases, given their scarring.

[eric42434224]

55k new cases.  We will def hit 100k a day in US.  Gov of Texas issued order requiring most to wear mask in public.  I wish that our Gov in FL would pull his tongue out of Trumps sphincter and do the same.

[lonestar]

55k new cases.  We will def hit 100k a day in US. 

And probably in the next two or three days, right in the middle of a massive holiday weekend where everyone is going to be completely ignoring social distancing to celebrate freedom. I'd gather that'd put us at 250k/day by the end of next week?

[Northern Lion]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've noticed in my state that as the case count has risen, the death count hasn't followed.  I think this is a really good sign.  Are any of you noticing the same thing in your states?

[lonestar]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've noticed in my state that as the case count has risen, the death count hasn't followed.  I think this is a really good sign.  Are any of you noticing the same thing in your states?

Yup, the death count is fairly static here in Ca. I'd guess they're catching a lot more of the asymptomatic cases, as well as saving a few more of the dire ones now that they got a bit more knowledge behind them.

[Cool Chris]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/coronavirus-contact-tracing-subpoena/index.html

Not sure how I feel about this. First off, I wasn't aware a state department of health could issue a subpoena. So, my first thought was no one is obligated to talk to a contact tracer if they don't want to. No law was violated, piss off, you don't need to know who's house I went to last weekend.

The subpoenas were punishable by up to $2,000 in fines per day, she said. All eight recipients have already responded. "It worked," she said.

"It's amazing how smart some people got," he told CNN. "Everybody is complying and helping us, which is all that we're trying to have happen, is work with us. We're not looking to be punitive here."

It is amazing people didn't want to pay $2k a day? And stop saying you didn't want to be punitive. ""If you get in the way of a health department investigation, I will take -- and we will take -- every step necessary to ensure that we respond appropriately and we're talking a serious response," Day said. Sounds like you are more than happy to be punitive. (different people in the quotes, apologies for lumping them in together to make my point).

Ethics aside, any legal experts want to weigh in on this?

[eric42434224]

Is there an ethical or legal issue here? I don’t know.  But The health Department definitely has some power to levy fines for sure.  Ask restaurants violating laws that put the health of the citizens at risk. 

Maybe Another ethical question To ask along with yours is why a citizen wouldn’t want to help protect the public health?  Are they not patriots?  We are expected to answer questions from cops, IRS, etc as authority figures, but not the department of health, especially in a pandemic, with info to help people stay healthy?

And it didn’t seem like he was happy to be punitive at all.  He literally said All they wanted was for the people to help them, and was happy to get that help to get info to combat the pandemic.
Maybe he was, but you can’t really determine that from his quotes.

I do think that unique threats call for unique solutions.  If the govt acted within its authority to get cooperation from a citizen to protect the public, I am not sure I have a problem with this.  Don’t see it as any different than any other type of investigation.

Looks like thy did the same with a measles outbreak some years ago so there is a precedent

[Cool Chris]

Is there an ethical or legal issue here? I don’t know.  But The health Department definitely has some power to levy fines for sure.  Ask restaurants violating laws that put the health of the citizens at risk. 

I do think that unique threats call for unique solutions.  If the govt acted within its authority to get cooperation from a citizen to protect the public, I am not sure I have a problem with this. 

Of course there are laws on the books about the requirements a restaurant must follow. I was just curious if laws existed for them to enact punitive damages to individuals as in this instance. If there are, that is fine. Proceed with due course (as they did in the measles situation). If there are not, I don't like the idea they can make them up as they go, despite trying to solve a very unique problem. And if there are not, I can respect some people not wanting to answer that phone call because they don't like the unknown they could face based on their answers. There is also the privacy issue many people take pretty seriously*.


*despite letting Facebook, Google, and Amazon know everything about their family, friends, financial info, shopping and spending habits, etc...

[eric42434224]

LOL on the *...so true.

But they have the authority to issue fines, and isn't this just a fine for ignoring their subpoena...which it appears they can issue.  Punitive is just another word punishment...in this case a fine is punishment for ignoring the subpoena.
To be honest, I don't see how this isn't any different with getting a subpoena for information in a criminal investigation.  The individual they are asking info from isn't in trouble...but there is an obligation to cooperate for the public good.  Ignoring a subpoena can have "punitive" repercussions....jail time or fines, right?

Maybe I'm wrong and a lawyer here can clarify.  I just don't see much difference, and at this point I think I am ok with this.  JMO though. 
Great topic to bring up in the thread Chris.

[Cool Chris]

I was really just trying to get off the topic of masks but this story caught my eye and bothered me a bit. Not because of what the dept of health was doing in and of itself; it just surprised me they had that much leverage, and were willing to use it. From what I recall hearing from my governor, cooperation with contact tracers was completely voluntary (I might not be remembering that correctly). I do not know if I like the idea that I have to account for every second of my time to a state entity should I be asked, but if it is all legit and legal, I can live with it.

In other news, in my state businesses are now required to refuse service to any customer not wearing a mask. I don't like this, but I equally, if not more so, dislike that this is where we've found ourselves.

[ErHaO]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've noticed in my state that as the case count has risen, the death count hasn't followed.  I think this is a really good sign.  Are any of you noticing the same thing in your states?

I obviously hope it will stay that way, but the death lag is three weeks to a month, as per our data for the first wave.

Hospitalization tends to be almost two weeks after the initial symptoms of illness, and then for some the battle for their lives will begin. And offcourse someone can test positive but not actually be ill for up to two weeks, with more intensive testing of asymptomatic people, this could add to the lag.

[jingle.boy]

My sense is that a big part of the high mortality rate in the early stages was due to the spread in long-term care facilities + people with some form of "pre-existing" condition.  What little news I have been paying attention to has suggested a lot of the recent rise is in the 22-44 age bracket.  I know a good work-friend of mine in Texas just wrapped up 6 days in the hospital from COVID (he's 46), and indicated that a breathing tank is going to be his best friend for the summer.  Death rate down is obviously good.  I'm wondering if the hospitalization rate is down.

[lordxizor]

I think there's a combo of reasons we haven't seen higher deaths:

We may be a couple weeks away from seeing deaths spike, but I said the same thing a couple weeks ago and we haven't seen it yet.

Elderly care facilities have either already been hit hard and the most weak are already dead, or they've gotten a lot smarter about preventing spread there.

With the rise in cases being largely among low risk people, we won't ever see much of a spike since the vast majority are able to recover on their own without hospitalization.

Widespread testing is catching more asymptomatic cases and the higher testing is yielding a higher number of false positives (likely the same percentage as before, but the pure number goes up), I don't think anyone really knows the false positive rate, but it's surely not zero.

I've also heard that they're counting positive tests, not positive patients. I don't know if this is true or not, but the same person may test positive several times since they're continuing to test them until they come back negative.

[ErHaO]

Here is an ENG report I could find from a couple of months back showing why there was a death lag of about a month in the UK:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8192993/The-coronavirus-death-lag-explained-weeks-fatality-recorded.html

I have no idea about the Daily Mail as a news source, but from the seminars and reports we got at work, I think the image showing the timelines look about right.

But yes, testing plays a role for sure. Testing for viruses has never been done on this scale and tests have been ramped up massively since the initial wave, so you will detect asymptomatic cases to a much larger degree. When the amount of confirmed asymptomatic/very mild cases ramps up significantly, that will obviously affect the percentage of deaths (lower them). But as far as I am aware, there is little scientific basis to believe the virus has "weakened", thus at some point, it is expected a lot of people will die if a lot of people are infected. Just not necessarily the same percentage as before. And I sincerely hope that percentage will be much lower, because it seems some US areas in particular are tracking well beyond the first peaks in terms of positive cases.

[jingle.boy]

I think there's a combo of reasons we haven't seen higher deaths:

We may be a couple weeks away from seeing deaths spike, but I said the same thing a couple weeks ago and we haven't seen it yet.

Elderly care facilities have either already been hit hard and the most weak are already dead, or they've gotten a lot smarter about preventing spread there.

With the rise in cases being largely among low risk people, we won't ever see much of a spike since the vast majority are able to recover on their own without hospitalization.

Widespread testing is catching more asymptomatic cases and the higher testing is yielding a higher number of false positives (likely the same percentage as before, but the pure number goes up), I don't think anyone really knows the false positive rate, but it's surely not zero.

I've also heard that they're counting positive tests, not positive patients. I don't know if this is true or not, but the same person may test positive several times since they're continuing to test them until they come back negative.

I believe that to be the case too.  Here in Ontario, anyone who wants a test can get one, and in some cases (eg, visiting a long term care facility; elective surgeries), you HAVE to get tested first.  That said, we’re not seeing the explosion in cases that several US States are, so those alone can’t explain the rise you guys are seeing south of the border.

All that said, once someone tests positive, it’s not like they get tested again unless they believe it was a false positive. Still... can’t see that being the cause for he spikes that are occurring.

[MirrorMask]

So, a manager from Veneto, a region bordering Lombardy (the one with Venice), went to Serbia, came back infected to Italy, didn't call the doctors even if he had a fever, he still attended meetings and even a birthday party.

Now there's a spike in contagions obviously, and the governor of the region is super pissed (and righteously so) and calls for more strict measures.

This is where stubborn people who think they know better lead you.

[MoraWintersoul]

Yikes yikes yikes. I'm sorry someone was stupid enough to do that, and I'm sorry our government has let the virus run rampant and infect so many people just so that they could have a nice election season for themselves: https://balkaninsight.com/2020/06/22/serbia-under-reported-covid-19-deaths-and-infections-data-shows/

I have a long, long, long post about this whole mess but I suppose it's more fitting for the "bitch and moan about how coronavirus is ruining your life".

[eric42434224]

11,445 new cases in FL in ONE DAY.  Gov DeSantis needs to grow a sack and take some action.  He is the biggest Florida Man right now.  Ugh I'm not leaving my house.
ALL the parents on my 11 yr kids travel team threw BBQ pool party this weekend.  I was the only one to have sense enough to celebrate with my family at home.  And before you ask, none of them practice safe distancing or wear masks.  So frustrating. 

[Ben_Jamin]

You could even if you think not have some underlying issues which would make covid-19 really bad for you.
I have had people with no previous issues die around me and when autopsied it was found out that they had for instance a heart that was enlarged and died because of covid-19.
So just be careful out there.....

O

But that's not anyone elses fault. There could be many reasons why, but He chose not to go to a hospital, and likely had symptoms of an enlarged heart.
It's sad that not having insurance is a really big issue that people end up dying because they can't afford to take care of their health.

So in a way, Our healthcare system is killing people daily for not having an insurance to pay them money's.

[Ben_Jamin]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've noticed in my state that as the case count has risen, the death count hasn't followed.  I think this is a really good sign.  Are any of you noticing the same thing in your states?

No surprise to me at all.

[PetFish]

I'm a front-line worker (hospital) and I wear a mask all day along with so many others.  Surgeons have been wearing them during operations as well as nurses and anyone else in the room.  I wore a mask for my wife's entire labor.

It's beyond insulting to myself and people who already wear them, and have been wearing them for years and years, that Karen and Kevin can't be bothered to wear one for a small portion of their day for a temporary situation after which they can go back to their normal lives.

[MirrorMask]

I'm a front-line worker (hospital) and I wear a mask all day along with so many others.  Surgeons have been wearing them during operations as well as nurses and anyone else in the room.  I wore a mask for my wife's entire labor.

It's beyond insulting to myself and people who already wear them, and have been wearing them for years and years, that Karen and Kevin can't be bothered to wear one for a small portion of their day for a temporary situation after which they can go back to their normal lives.

 

[SwedishGoose]

You could even if you think not have some underlying issues which would make covid-19 really bad for you.
I have had people with no previous issues die around me and when autopsied it was found out that they had for instance a heart that was enlarged and died because of covid-19.
So just be careful out there.....

O

But that's not anyone elses fault. There could be many reasons why, but He chose not to go to a hospital, and likely had symptoms of an enlarged heart.
It's sad that not having insurance is a really big issue that people end up dying because they can't afford to take care of their health.

So in a way, Our healthcare system is killing people daily for not having an insurance to pay them money's.

Neither he nor his wife noticed any symptoms and living in sweden we don't have to worry about insurance. Going to the doctor costs 200 SEK up to a maximum of 1150 SEK a year.

If you need medicins you might have to pay up to 2350 SEK a year.

But nobody in sweden refrains from going to the doctor because of cost.

Symptoms on underlying issues are not always easy to spot.

That is why I take a health test at least every fifth year. EKG or blood or urine can show signs of issues much earlier than you notice any symptoms. Costs a bit, but well worth it.

[ErHaO]

You could even if you think not have some underlying issues which would make covid-19 really bad for you.
I have had people with no previous issues die around me and when autopsied it was found out that they had for instance a heart that was enlarged and died because of covid-19.
So just be careful out there.....

O

But that's not anyone elses fault. There could be many reasons why, but He chose not to go to a hospital, and likely had symptoms of an enlarged heart.
It's sad that not having insurance is a really big issue that people end up dying because they can't afford to take care of their health.

So in a way, Our healthcare system is killing people daily for not having an insurance to pay them money's.

I think that posters point was that some people don't know they have underlying factors until thing go wrong (like a virus, in this case).

People really underestimate how common underlying health issues are though, and tend to think they don't belong to that group. If you count hypertension, diabetes, asthma, obesity and morbid obesity, you will have more than half of the adult US population. More than a 100 million adult US citizens have hypertension, for example, as per the cdc.

[SwedishGoose]

You could even if you think not have some underlying issues which would make covid-19 really bad for you.
I have had people with no previous issues die around me and when autopsied it was found out that they had for instance a heart that was enlarged and died because of covid-19.
So just be careful out there.....

O

But that's not anyone elses fault. There could be many reasons why, but He chose not to go to a hospital, and likely had symptoms of an enlarged heart.
It's sad that not having insurance is a really big issue that people end up dying because they can't afford to take care of their health.

So in a way, Our healthcare system is killing people daily for not having an insurance to pay them money's.

I think that posters point was that some people don't know they have underlying factors until thing go wrong (like a virus, in this case).

People really underestimate how common underlying health issues are though, and tend to think they don't belong to that group. If you count hypertension, diabetes, asthma, obesity and morbid obesity, you will have more than half of the adult US population. More than a 100 million adult US citizens have hypertension, for example, as per the cdc.

Indeed ... it is so for me too. I had no symptoms but because of issues in the family bought a blood pressure gauge. Now, since a few days I am on medication.

[emtee]

Latest stats from the hospital where I work.

52 positive Covid patients.
102 PUI'S
50 staff infected and out.

The line of patients outside the ER this morning at 5:30am, wrapped around the exterior wall.

It's damn scary right now. Central Florida is blowing up with Covid.

We've got no rooms left to put patients so they are lined up in the hall of the ER.

[Chino]

Latest stats from the hospital where I work.

52 positive Covid patients.
102 PUI'S
50 staff infected and out.

The line of patients outside the ER this morning at 5:30am, wrapped around the exterior wall.

It's damn scary right now. Central Florida is blowing up with Covid.

We've got no rooms left to put patients so they are lined up in the hall of the ER.

Damn. My entire state only had 61 cases across all hospitals as of this morning. Best of luck to you 

[lonestar]

My first covid test came back negative, as did the bulk of my coworkers.

[Indiscipline]

Olè! 

[lonestar]

 

[King Postwhore]

Good news RJ!