Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 433769 times)

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Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8750 on: May 10, 2021, 02:59:03 PM »
So I guess there is now a shedding conspiracy floating around. How stupid are people?

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8751 on: May 10, 2021, 03:04:41 PM »
There's that school in Florida that is spewing similar nonsense about vaccinated people spreading disease to non vaccinated.  What world do we live in where this is our response to a prove and effective solution to a global pandemic?

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8752 on: May 10, 2021, 03:23:14 PM »
So I guess there is now a shedding conspiracy floating around. How stupid are people?



So is this different than the hair, skin, and nail cells (not to mention the bodily oils) that we shed on a minute-by-minute basis? 

Offline Orbert

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8753 on: May 10, 2021, 04:19:39 PM »
No.  But anti-vaxxers have never been known for their common sense, or grasp of junior-high biology for that matter.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8754 on: May 10, 2021, 04:44:06 PM »
So I guess there is now a shedding conspiracy floating around. How stupid are people?

The answer is YES!

On a side note, one of my coworkers that I was working with on Friday tested positive for COVID today and he's been sick since Saturday, so this week could get interesting...
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8755 on: May 10, 2021, 05:08:55 PM »
And as expected from last week, Pfizer has been approved for children aged 12-15

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-authorizes-pfizer-biontech-covid-212439506.html

I can understand the hesitation here from parents much more than the adults hesitating, but this certainly seems extremely safe AND effective. 

And for the EUA folks, Pfizer is likely to get full approval in the coming months. It's already in process.  So the "experimental" BS that is thrown around should soon be an even poorer reason to not get vaccinated. 

Offline Harmony

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8756 on: May 10, 2021, 05:32:24 PM »
I'm on the fence (so far) of the younger kids getting vaccinated until on a global scale, we get a better handle on hospitalizations/deaths/infections.  I don't fault parents for wanting their kids to get vaccinated at all, but at this point I'd like to see the ramp up in shots going to India, Africa, Brazil, heck even Canada could use a boost.



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Offline bosk1

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8757 on: May 10, 2021, 06:28:53 PM »
we are approaching the end of demand and we can only cross our fingers that it's good enough to stop the spread. 

Yeah, I think we are.  But I don't think we are as close as some seem to worry that we are.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8758 on: May 11, 2021, 03:07:03 AM »
I'll be getting my vaccine shot this Thursday. I didn't know if I was eligible yet or not, but since I have high blood pressure (and there is heart conditions in the near family) then I can get the vaccine shot now instead of being in the last prioritized group which I thought I was.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8759 on: May 11, 2021, 04:34:46 AM »
I'm on the fence (so far) of the younger kids getting vaccinated until on a global scale, we get a better handle on hospitalizations/deaths/infections.  I don't fault parents for wanting their kids to get vaccinated at all, but at this point I'd like to see the ramp up in shots going to India, Africa, Brazil, heck even Canada could use a boost.

We certainly can.  Less than 5% of the population is fully vaccinated; about 40% have had at least 1 shot.  I think we still have a goal of 70% - and believe that we can get there.  I don't think there's the amount of hesitancy/anti-vax up here as there is in the US.

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Offline ariich

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8760 on: May 11, 2021, 06:07:27 AM »
The UK's approach seems have to been working well so far (pretty much the only thing we have done well on COVID).

The combination of firstly having a clear prioritisation (mostly age-based, but also people with medical conditions and health and social care workers also quite high up the list) and secondly starting with a focus on first shots to get most of the protection to more priority people as quickly as possible seems to have been very effective.

First shots have slowed down quite a bit now while the focus is on getting second shots administered to everyone within 12 weeks of the first dose. And because it's basically now just age-related prioritisation, I'm still not yet eligible although I should hopefully be in the next group.

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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8761 on: May 11, 2021, 07:30:00 AM »
The UK's approach seems have to been working well so far (pretty much the only thing we have done well on COVID).

The combination of firstly having a clear prioritisation (mostly age-based, but also people with medical conditions and health and social care workers also quite high up the list) and secondly starting with a focus on first shots to get most of the protection to more priority people as quickly as possible seems to have been very effective.

First shots have slowed down quite a bit now while the focus is on getting second shots administered to everyone within 12 weeks of the first dose. And because it's basically now just age-related prioritisation, I'm still not yet eligible although I should hopefully be in the next group.

I saw a graphic last night that the disparity between %-of-population with 1st shots, and % fully vaccinated is not terribly wide in the UK, where it's about a 35 basis points gap in Canada.  I don't disagree with the strategy of getting as many first doses in people, but at some point, that 2nd dose is just as (if not more) valuable to some group of the population vs the 1st shot in another group.  Like, do 15-year olds need the first shot, or does a 60 year old grocery store worker or teacher need their second shot?  Canada had approved a FOUR MONTH gap between 1st and 2nd shots - well past the recommendations of the pharmas and WHO.
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Online cramx3

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8762 on: May 11, 2021, 07:46:13 AM »
To compare, here are the US vaccination numbers as of today:

Quote
46.0% of population with 1+ dose (59.3% of the adult population), 34.8% of population fully vaccinated.

Offline Lonk

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8763 on: May 11, 2021, 08:00:46 AM »
I'm really happy with the numbers I've been seeing from the tri-state (CT, NJ and NY). NY for the first time since October reported under 2000 cases (statewide), and we are close to 50% of people with at least 1 shot (over 60% for those 18+).
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8764 on: May 11, 2021, 08:51:50 AM »
We're going to have an issue with the kids, though.   My state has been at or near the top of the vaccination numbers so far, but we're starting to see rumblings that the 12-17 numbers are not going to mirror the adult numbers.  I'm working from memory, so don't quote me exactly, but I understand about 30% of the parents will vaccinate their kids, 20% will not, under any circumstances, and the remaining 50% is split roughly between about 35% at "we'll see as we get more information" and 15% at "only if my school requires it".  Again, the only numbers I'm sure of are the "no freakin' way" (which was actually 19%) and the "if school" which was 15%.

There are already protests in East Hartford (not the good suburb of Hartford) and West Hartford (the good suburb of Hartford) about potentially taking the decision out of parent's hands, and there was a separate protest in East Hartford about mask requirements for kids.

The reality is, though, at least in my state, the risk factor looks to be really, really low for kids.  It's making the decision harder, because the data is more ambiguous, and the "do it because it's the right thing" argument is less persuasive.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8765 on: May 11, 2021, 09:09:45 AM »
Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about the children.  I trust the FDA EUA approval process to believe it's safe and effective, but I struggle with the idea if it's even necessary... yet.  I think the adults should get vaccinated and then we wouldn't need to have the children vaccinated.  They aren't the ones who are doing much of the spread or getting sick so just keeping the adults safe should do the trick, but the problem comes back to the amount of adults choosing not to for no good reason.  It really puts a hamper on those who can't get a vaccine due to legit health reasons and to children where the risk/benefit isn't quite the same as adults. 

In the end, I think if this gets full FDA approval, I wouldn't be too against schools requiring it for under 18 year olds.  I've got no issues with colleges requiring it for 18+ with EUA. 

Offline Lonk

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8766 on: May 11, 2021, 09:12:05 AM »
We're going to have an issue with the kids, though.   My state has been at or near the top of the vaccination numbers so far, but we're starting to see rumblings that the 12-17 numbers are not going to mirror the adult numbers.  I'm working from memory, so don't quote me exactly, but I understand about 30% of the parents will vaccinate their kids, 20% will not, under any circumstances, and the remaining 50% is split roughly between about 35% at "we'll see as we get more information" and 15% at "only if my school requires it".  Again, the only numbers I'm sure of are the "no freakin' way" (which was actually 19%) and the "if school" which was 15%.

There are already protests in East Hartford (not the good suburb of Hartford) and West Hartford (the good suburb of Hartford) about potentially taking the decision out of parent's hands, and there was a separate protest in East Hartford about mask requirements for kids.

The reality is, though, at least in my state, the risk factor looks to be really, really low for kids.  It's making the decision harder, because the data is more ambiguous, and the "do it because it's the right thing" argument is less persuasive.

Yeah, Kids and young adults will be a huge part of us reaching that elusive 70%.

I saw that CUNY and SUNY (State and City universities in NY) will require all students to get vaccinated before returning in the Fall. There are some private schools that are taking the same steps. I have a feeling this will be a long summer.
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Offline hunnus2000

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8767 on: May 11, 2021, 10:01:52 AM »
Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about the children.  I trust the FDA EUA approval process to believe it's safe and effective, but I struggle with the idea if it's even necessary... yet.  I think the adults should get vaccinated and then we wouldn't need to have the children vaccinated.  They aren't the ones who are doing much of the spread or getting sick so just keeping the adults safe should do the trick, but the problem comes back to the amount of adults choosing not to for no good reason.  It really puts a hamper on those who can't get a vaccine due to legit health reasons and to children where the risk/benefit isn't quite the same as adults. 

In the end, I think if this gets full FDA approval, I wouldn't be too against schools requiring it for under 18 year olds.  I've got no issues with colleges requiring it for 18+ with EUA.

Children  absolutely CAN be transmitters of COVID. And new data is showing that younger people are getting sick from the variants and even being hospitalized. In the small town I live in when schools opened up last fall over 300 people got COVID between the grade school and the high school and they had to shut the schools down for a second time.

It's really imperative the children get vaxxed. I've been vaxxed since late Feb. and I have had no ill-effects from the Moderna and I would venture to say that none of you have either.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8768 on: May 11, 2021, 10:08:35 AM »
Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about the children.  I trust the FDA EUA approval process to believe it's safe and effective, but I struggle with the idea if it's even necessary... yet.  I think the adults should get vaccinated and then we wouldn't need to have the children vaccinated.  They aren't the ones who are doing much of the spread or getting sick so just keeping the adults safe should do the trick, but the problem comes back to the amount of adults choosing not to for no good reason.  It really puts a hamper on those who can't get a vaccine due to legit health reasons and to children where the risk/benefit isn't quite the same as adults. 

In the end, I think if this gets full FDA approval, I wouldn't be too against schools requiring it for under 18 year olds.  I've got no issues with colleges requiring it for 18+ with EUA.

Children  absolutely CAN be transmitters of COVID. And new data is showing that younger people are getting sick from the variants and even being hospitalized. In the small town I live in when schools opened up last fall over 300 people got COVID between the grade school and the high school and they had to shut the schools down for a second time.

It's really imperative the children get vaxxed. I've been vaxxed since late Feb. and I have had no ill-effects from the Moderna and I would venture to say that none of you have either.

Of course kids can transmit covid and get sick, but they aren't a big factor in terms of spread which is specifically what I mentioned

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/kids-school-and-covid-19-what-we-know-and-what-we-don-t

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8769 on: May 11, 2021, 11:01:00 AM »
There was a 14-year old that passed here in Ontario a couple weeks ago that was just tragic.  Ain't nobody should have to go thru that.  I hope there's a decent amount of adoption for that 12-17 age bracket as well.  FFS, we vaccinate babies for MMR, so "vaccines" aren't the issue.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8770 on: May 11, 2021, 11:56:01 AM »
Also came in here to post this.  From the sublime, to the ridiculous.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nnwg/anti-maskers-ready-to-start-maskingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated

No folks, this is not an Onion or HardTimes article.  Reminds me of this meme:

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Online Adami

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8771 on: May 11, 2021, 12:00:55 PM »
Didn’t South Park do that? That the 911 conspiracy theory was itself a conspiracy theory by the gov to make itself look more powerful than it could ever actually be?
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8772 on: May 11, 2021, 12:21:00 PM »
Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about the children.  I trust the FDA EUA approval process to believe it's safe and effective, but I struggle with the idea if it's even necessary... yet.  I think the adults should get vaccinated and then we wouldn't need to have the children vaccinated.  They aren't the ones who are doing much of the spread or getting sick so just keeping the adults safe should do the trick, but the problem comes back to the amount of adults choosing not to for no good reason.  It really puts a hamper on those who can't get a vaccine due to legit health reasons and to children where the risk/benefit isn't quite the same as adults. 

In the end, I think if this gets full FDA approval, I wouldn't be too against schools requiring it for under 18 year olds.  I've got no issues with colleges requiring it for 18+ with EUA.

Children  absolutely CAN be transmitters of COVID. And new data is showing that younger people are getting sick from the variants and even being hospitalized. In the small town I live in when schools opened up last fall over 300 people got COVID between the grade school and the high school and they had to shut the schools down for a second time.

It's really imperative the children get vaxxed. I've been vaxxed since late Feb. and I have had no ill-effects from the Moderna and I would venture to say that none of you have either.

I have been to - and would do it again - but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that many who have reservations about the vaccine have them because of the time factor; to say we've been "vaxxed since late Feb. and ... have had no ill-effects" isn't going to move the needle for them. 

When I got the polio vaccine, it had been in wide distribution for over two decades.   While the autism-vaxx link has been thoroughly debunked in terms of causal relationship, it hasn't been debunked - and cannot be - in terms of potentiality.   In other words, while vaccines haven't been shown to cause autism, there are those that aren't convinced that this (or other) vaccines may not be the cause of something else we haven't isolated as of yet.

I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point, as long as they don't prevent me from making the decision for myself.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8773 on: May 11, 2021, 12:52:36 PM »
I know right, like the potential is there that vaccines may prevent erectile dysfunction. Let’s start spreading that as a potential outcome of vaccines.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8774 on: May 11, 2021, 01:03:32 PM »
I think I understand why parents have the suspicions about vaccines causing autism. Because your kids are born, and for the first 3-6 months, they're fine. As long as they're drinking, pooping, and sleeping, it's all good, there's nothing to worry about. There aren't that many factors out of the parent's control to make sure this all goes smoothly, and there are very few variables in the routine. Any parents will know that the early months of parenting are a frazzling and sleepless but also kind of predictable and simple time. Only later on are there any real developmental milestones - walking, talking, being able to use a spoon, etc., and of course by that time there are so many more variables in a child's life, the fact they've gotten vaccines more likely being one of the least understood ones by the parents.

Having nothing to blame for something that goes wrong or feels wrong is such a frustrating thing for anyone to go through. There's nothing satisfying about coming to the realization that there's "no reason" why I'm so unhappy, or why I'm so angry all the time, or why there's such great tragedy in the world. Having something to scapegoat is so much better. So when a child starts missing these milestones, who does a parent blame? Not themselves, obviously, so something else. Well, there is likely SOME reason why autism exists, but we just don't understand what it is. That's when maybe those vaccines become incredibly appealing scapegoats.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8775 on: May 11, 2021, 01:04:04 PM »
I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point
But why not?
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Offline hunnus2000

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8776 on: May 11, 2021, 01:21:00 PM »
Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about the children.  I trust the FDA EUA approval process to believe it's safe and effective, but I struggle with the idea if it's even necessary... yet.  I think the adults should get vaccinated and then we wouldn't need to have the children vaccinated.  They aren't the ones who are doing much of the spread or getting sick so just keeping the adults safe should do the trick, but the problem comes back to the amount of adults choosing not to for no good reason.  It really puts a hamper on those who can't get a vaccine due to legit health reasons and to children where the risk/benefit isn't quite the same as adults. 

In the end, I think if this gets full FDA approval, I wouldn't be too against schools requiring it for under 18 year olds.  I've got no issues with colleges requiring it for 18+ with EUA.

Children  absolutely CAN be transmitters of COVID. And new data is showing that younger people are getting sick from the variants and even being hospitalized. In the small town I live in when schools opened up last fall over 300 people got COVID between the grade school and the high school and they had to shut the schools down for a second time.

It's really imperative the children get vaxxed. I've been vaxxed since late Feb. and I have had no ill-effects from the Moderna and I would venture to say that none of you have either.

Of course kids can transmit covid and get sick, but they aren't a big factor in terms of spread which is specifically what I mentioned

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/kids-school-and-covid-19-what-we-know-and-what-we-don-t

That article you posted was from last November. Considering the dynamic nature of this virus, I would say we are learning more and more everyday, thus the reason for my response.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8777 on: May 11, 2021, 01:28:24 PM »
Here's one from two weeks ago

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/study-finds-kids-under-10-unlikely-to-spread-coronavirus-at-school

I'm not trying to argue with you, and I have no children to provide any anecdotal experience like you have, but everything I've read has suggested for some time now that children aren't really the cause of large covid spreads, even in schools.  I'm guessing it's linked to the same reason why they don't seem to struggle with illness when catching the virus.  That doesn't mean they don't get sick or can't die or spread it to someone who may die, it's just not nearly as likely as with adults.  I'm only trying to propose the reasoning why children vaccinating is not nearly as important as getting the adults who chose not to.  There's a impactful difference in spread and illness between children and adults.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I trust the science and FDA that Pfizer is safe for children so I am certainly all for children getting vaccinated, but I want to make sure I understand the concerns and risk/benefit.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8778 on: May 11, 2021, 01:32:09 PM »

Having nothing to blame for something that goes wrong or feels wrong is such a frustrating thing for anyone to go through. There's nothing satisfying about coming to the realization that there's "no reason" why I'm so unhappy, or why I'm so angry all the time, or why there's such great tragedy in the world. Having something to scapegoat is so much better. So when a child starts missing these milestones, who does a parent blame? Not themselves, obviously, so something else. Well, there is likely SOME reason why autism exists, but we just don't understand what it is. That's when maybe those vaccines become incredibly appealing scapegoats.

People tend to not want to blame themselves. They rather point the finger and blame the other. It all plays into the entire reaction to the cause, and it's effect is staggering.

You have both sides of the vaccine argument pointing fingers at one another. Not one will point the finger at themselves. One blames the other for spreading sickness, and one blames the other for losing freedoms. Where is the middle ground?

Doesn't matter who is right or wrong. "Someone has to lose, and someone has to win".

When it comes to children. Parents do not want and don't like it when others try and tell them how they should raise their child...

And you won't know and understand how it is raising a child until you have one. Because of the fact you are always with that child. Mothers have a connection with that child for the rest of their lives, and no one should take that away, it's why you get mother's stealing their children back from adoption.

Would you rather Child Protective Services take away their child because you feel the child is unsafe and in harm's way? Without knowing the full facts and understanding of how it is to raise a child, then you should have no say into HOW these parents raise their child. There is no right way to raise a child. There is a right way to raise a child in the mindset of a society, and mold them to fit into the mold of that society.

And who determines whether that Society is right or wrong?


This will and always has been the issue when governments and others try and tell people HOW to raise one's own child.

That's not how our government works. But it is how communistic societies work, as they determine how and what your child will become, and is raised only for that pre-determined purpose.


I understand how much people are suddenly caring about others. But also, don't be intrusive and invading of their personal freedoms. It's not up to you to determine these things for people. Its the premise for tending to your own garden. Yes, that person is doing this, but if it's not affecting you, why bother. If it's nothing you can control, then you control it the best way you can for yourself and your own garden. Cause in the end, you're garden will still be fine and dandy, because you took the precautions and did something about it. While the other doesn't have crops, and has no produce, because they didn't see the clouds forming and the wind blowing and weather indicating an unseasonal winter storm is approaching.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 01:40:39 PM by Ben_Jamin »
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8779 on: May 11, 2021, 01:35:32 PM »
Here's one from two weeks ago

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/study-finds-kids-under-10-unlikely-to-spread-coronavirus-at-school

I'm not trying to argue with you, and I have no children to provide any anecdotal experience like you have, but everything I've read has suggested for some time now that children aren't really the cause of large covid spreads, even in schools.  I'm guessing it's linked to the same reason why they don't seem to struggle with illness when catching the virus.  That doesn't mean they don't get sick or can't die or spread it to someone who may die, it's just not nearly as likely as with adults.  I'm only trying to propose the reasoning why children vaccinating is not nearly as important as getting the adults who chose not to.  There's a impactful difference in spread and illness between children and adults.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I trust the science and FDA that Pfizer is safe for children so I am certainly all for children getting vaccinated, but I want to make sure I understand the concerns and risk/benefit.
The concerns for me are that, although most kids that get it don't suffer severe side effects, some of the one that get it turn into what they call "long haulers", who develop long term or chronic issues.  That's awful.  And the testing for the vaccines amongst kids in that age range (12-17) had a 100% effective rate.

So I don't see any rational reasons not to vaccinate kids in that range.  Of course, I see no rational reasons not to vaccinate any adults, either (outside of that hypothetical subset that have medical reasons they shouldn't get vaccinated).
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Offline ariich

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8780 on: May 11, 2021, 02:26:30 PM »
The UK's approach seems have to been working well so far (pretty much the only thing we have done well on COVID).

The combination of firstly having a clear prioritisation (mostly age-based, but also people with medical conditions and health and social care workers also quite high up the list) and secondly starting with a focus on first shots to get most of the protection to more priority people as quickly as possible seems to have been very effective.

First shots have slowed down quite a bit now while the focus is on getting second shots administered to everyone within 12 weeks of the first dose. And because it's basically now just age-related prioritisation, I'm still not yet eligible although I should hopefully be in the next group.

I saw a graphic last night that the disparity between %-of-population with 1st shots, and % fully vaccinated is not terribly wide in the UK, where it's about a 35 basis points gap in Canada.  I don't disagree with the strategy of getting as many first doses in people, but at some point, that 2nd dose is just as (if not more) valuable to some group of the population vs the 1st shot in another group.  Like, do 15-year olds need the first shot, or does a 60 year old grocery store worker or teacher need their second shot?  Canada had approved a FOUR MONTH gap between 1st and 2nd shots - well past the recommendations of the pharmas and WHO.
Yeah in the UK the second-doses have been catching up, but our rollout started pretty quick and we've had a 12-week strategy between doses (which in the case of the AstraZeneca one, seems to be more effective than the initially-suggested 3-week gap). So back at 1st April, the difference among the adult population was around 50 percentage points (60% of adults first dose, 10% second dose).

I understand your hesitation, but honestly it seems to have worked well. A single dose gives almost as much protection, and lasts for at least six months. And by getting a lot of people mostly protected quickly, it helps reduce transmission (a move towards herd immunity) as well as protecting more individuals.

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Online Stadler

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8781 on: May 11, 2021, 03:01:11 PM »
I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point
But why not?


Because we don't know what we don't know.

I worked in the environmental field for a good 12, 15 years.   I can't tell you how many times I had to explain to a client why PCB's, or TCE, or chloroflourocarbons weren't a problem for 50 years... until they were.  Asbestos.  Thalidomide.   These are more obvious examples, and likely, had proper testing been done, there would have been more awareness sooner, but that's not always the case.  Generally, immunization is predicated on the theory that the benefits of the vaccines far outweigh the risks from delayed adverse events.   Historically, most adverse effects that we know of from vaccines occur early on in the life of the vaccine.   I understand all that, and I'm willing to take that risk as are millions of other people.   

But as a general proposition, I'm not ready to tell someone else they have to adopt my risk standard.   The reality is, even if the majority of policy makers agree that the benefits far outweigh the risks, I'm not going to knock someone for coming up with a different cost/benefit analysis.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8782 on: May 12, 2021, 12:14:53 AM »
I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point
But why not?


Because we don't know what we don't know.

I worked in the environmental field for a good 12, 15 years.   I can't tell you how many times I had to explain to a client why PCB's, or TCE, or chloroflourocarbons weren't a problem for 50 years... until they were.  Asbestos.  Thalidomide.   These are more obvious examples, and likely, had proper testing been done, there would have been more awareness sooner, but that's not always the case.  Generally, immunization is predicated on the theory that the benefits of the vaccines far outweigh the risks from delayed adverse events.   Historically, most adverse effects that we know of from vaccines occur early on in the life of the vaccine.   I understand all that, and I'm willing to take that risk as are millions of other people.   

But as a general proposition, I'm not ready to tell someone else they have to adopt my risk standard.   The reality is, even if the majority of policy makers agree that the benefits far outweigh the risks, I'm not going to knock someone for coming up with a different cost/benefit analysis.

When my friend bought tickets to our local Minor League Baseball game, I looked up their terms and conditions and this is what it says...

Quote
COVID-19 IS AN EXTREMELY CONTAGIOUS DISEASE THAT CAN LEAD TO SEVERE ILLNESS AND DEATH. AN INHERENT RISK OF EXPOSURE TO COVID-19 EXISTS IN ANY PUBLIC PLACE REGARDLESS OF PRECAUTIONS THAT MAY BE TAKEN. HOLDER, ON THEIR BEHALF AND ON BEHALF OF ANY ACCOMPANYING PARTIES (AS DEFINED BELOW), AGREES TO (A) ASSUME ALL RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH COVID-19 AND OTHER COMMUNICABLE DISEASES, AND (B) COMPLY WITH ALL RELATED HEALTH & SAFETY POLICIES OF THE CLUB AND THE HOST VENUE (AS DEFINED BELOW) OWNER/OPERATOR.

Quote
FAN HEALTH PROMISE

Holder acknowledges and understands that, if infected with COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease (as defined at the conclusion of this paragraph), Holder and/or any Accompanying Parties may infect others that they may subsequently come in contact with, even if they are not experiencing or displaying any symptoms of illness, and that the risk of exposure to others remains at all times. Accordingly, Holder agrees that neither Holder nor any Accompanying Party will attend the Event if within fourteen (14) days preceding the Event, they have:

(a) tested positive or presumptively positive for COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease or been identified as a potential carrier of COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease; OR

(b) experienced any symptoms commonly associated with COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease; OR

(c) been in direct contact with or the immediate vicinity of any person who is confirmed or suspected of being infected with COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease.

A “Communicable Disease” as used herein is COVID-19, any strains, variants, or mutations thereof, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, and/or any other communicable and/or infectious diseases, viruses, bacteria or illnesses or the causes thereof.

ASSUMPTION OF RISK RELATED TO COVID-19 AND OTHER COMMUNICABLE DISEASES

Holder, on their behalf and on behalf of any Accompanying Parties, acknowledges and expressly assumes all risks that are in any way related to or arising from being exposed to or contracting COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease in the Host Venue. By using this ticket, Holder is acknowledging and confirming, on behalf of Holder and any Related Parties (as defined at the conclusion of this paragraph) both now and in the future, that Holder understands and expressly assumes the risk that Holder and/or any Accompanying Parties may be exposed to COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease. Holder expressly understands that these risks include contracting COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease and the associated dangers, medical complications and physical and mental injuries, both foreseen and unforeseen, that may result from contracting COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease. Holder further acknowledges and understands, on their own behalf and on behalf of any Accompanying Parties, that any interaction with the general public poses an elevated, inherent risk of being exposed to and contracting Communicable Disease, including, but not limited to, COVID-19, that it cannot be guaranteed that Holder and/or any Accompanying Parties will not be exposed, and that as such, potential exposure to or contraction of COVID-19 or other Communicable Disease are risks inherent in Holder’s decision to use this ticket that cannot be eliminated. “Related Parties” are any Accompanying Parties as well as Holder’s and any Accompanying Parties’ personal representatives, assigns, heirs, next of kin and any other person or entity that may be entitled to make a claim on their behalf.


And all they are doing is asking people to mask up, and Social Distance, which went completely out the door as people lingered in lines to buy food, and enter the Pro Shop. They did have mobile ordering, but one food place wasn't prepared for the amount of orders they'll receive and people whom mobile ordered still had to wait for food.

People were masked up when lingering around and waiting in line, most weren't masked in the seats because of food and drink. It was an open venue, and we also had a fireworks show. First one of the season, and the crowd ended up being the normal size crowd that was already at the venue before Covid happened. They never fully were at max capacity much at all.

While down the street, we were having School Basketball Tournaments, and then across the street, High School Graduation Ceremonies.

It's hard to tell who's risk standards were where. But that didn't matter at all to everyone who attended. All that mattered was finally being able to watch a game of baseball, with company, with people, and watch our team get their asses whooped 15-1. The vibe of that venue was one of no worries, and everyone was there to enjoy the game, no conflict. Just the guys heckling the team, which was hilarious.  :biggrin:
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8783 on: May 12, 2021, 07:32:26 AM »
I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point
But why not?


Because we don't know what we don't know.
Maybe, but we know what THEY don't know.  Which is jack shit.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #8784 on: May 12, 2021, 08:54:04 AM »
I don't agree with them, but I'm reluctant to dismiss them outright at this point
But why not?


Because we don't know what we don't know.

I worked in the environmental field for a good 12, 15 years.   I can't tell you how many times I had to explain to a client why PCB's, or TCE, or chloroflourocarbons weren't a problem for 50 years... until they were.  Asbestos.  Thalidomide.   These are more obvious examples, and likely, had proper testing been done, there would have been more awareness sooner, but that's not always the case.  Generally, immunization is predicated on the theory that the benefits of the vaccines far outweigh the risks from delayed adverse events.   Historically, most adverse effects that we know of from vaccines occur early on in the life of the vaccine.   I understand all that, and I'm willing to take that risk as are millions of other people.   

But as a general proposition, I'm not ready to tell someone else they have to adopt my risk standard.   The reality is, even if the majority of policy makers agree that the benefits far outweigh the risks, I'm not going to knock someone for coming up with a different cost/benefit analysis.

Last I checked, building materials don't go thru the same kind of regulated R&D, clinical trials, reporting, oversight, and approvals that drugs do.  Just sayin.

The part I bolded is a fair one.  On the flipside, I also don't want to have to adopt someone else's risk standard - which is what I will have to do if I'm in a populated area with any unvaccinated people.  For instance, I was watching some sports highlights last night.  I'd say the fans were about 50/50 masked.  No one knows if the unmasked people are vaccinated, or anti-maskers.  So, by default I'm potentially adopting the risk standard of the anti-masker sitting in front of me in the stands who may be spreading a highly contagious disease.  I don't think *that* is any more or less 'fair' than the bolded above.
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