Coronavirus

[gmillerdrake]

Unbelievable that after all this time in the richest country on the entire planet and we are still in the worst shape of ANYONE else and it's not even close.  126K cases yesterday, an all-time high.  And those are just the ones we know about, some estimates say the actual caseload is somewhere between 3 and 5 times greater than what's reported in the media because we simply can't test everyone so thousands of cases are going undetected here because we fucking suck.

Just asking but on what basis?

According to the web page listed in the OP of this very thread. USA is #1 in cases, but #16 in cases per million. #10 in deaths per million. So I guess it depends on how you look at it, but we certainly can't be proud of our response to the pandemic. Most of the countries who can be said to have it worse than us, don't have our wealth or resources.

Here's my source for cases and deaths per million.  Just over the summer and into early fall, we were No. 10 or 11 on cases per million, so we're improving on that metric*.   Not that we should be celebrating that other countries have more sick people per capita, but a little perspective is in order.   

And as for resources, also not a complete picture.   If you look at this list of "best Healthcare in the world", San Marino and Andorra are better than us, and Andorra has the most cases per million of ANY country in the world, San Marino fourteenth.  France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg... all better than us, and all either in the same bracket or above us on "cases per million".   By my count, I see four countries with BETTER healthcare than us, and higher than us on the "cases per million" list.  To be fair, that doesn't hold with this source, though we're still 11th, behind France and the UK among others.

For "deaths per million", we are right in front of the UK (who has way less CASES per million, which means more of their cases are resulting in death, percentage wise), and again, BEHIND several countries that have ostensibly better healthcare than we do.

It's all bad, don't misunderstand me, but grand pronouncements should reflect the actual numbers, in my opinion. 

*This is where we go to the P/R thread.

And to just add.....the effort has always been to limit the spread enough as to not overwhelm hospitals/ER's/ICU's. The large percentage of people who get this endure it through rest and isolation at home. I 'get' that we want to limit the spread so the vulnerable don't become infected....I do, I have several family members who are in that category as does everyone. But, they're also being diligent about limiting their exposure to people by still staying isolated.

So while yes.....these numbers are climbing again.....but it's not 100,000 people a day going to the ICU or taking up a hospital bed. A good chunk of those people likely have little to no symptoms or symptoms that pass quickly. And there are probably countless others who are infected that just don't know it or don't go get tested.

The mandatory masks mandate seems like the simplest and most effective way to curb the virus.....with emphasis on hand washing as well. I've read that some states have increased hospital stays.....but, I know the systems here in st. louis are still low in capacity even with a recent increase of positive cases. I haven't seen any clear cut info to support this....but, I think most of this second wave of cases are happening in the younger, healthier population as they're the ones that are out and about.

[MirrorMask]

Biden's to-be coronavirus mandates sound great for cities but good f'ing luck enforcing those out in rural America or getting people to follow things like 'gatherings limited to one household.'

What does gatherings limited to one household mean? My household doesn't gather. We just live here. I assume this basically means that no one may enter your home unless they live there, which sounds utterly ridiculous and impossible to enforce.

It means you don't hold gatherings with other families. For example, if one household has two parents and two kids, they shouldn't have the two parents and their three kids from next door over for an event.

Of course other people can enter your home. If you need contracting work done, or some critter exterminated, those people can still come and go. If a relative needs to come by, that's fine. If you have to go watch a niece or nephew while your sibling works, that's fine. The objective is to prevent groups from intermingling with other groups for extended periods of time for things like parties, wedding celebrations, celebrations of life, and gender reveals (all things I've been invited to in the last 5-6 weeks).

It's gonna be like this more or less everywhere. In Italy it's already being discussed the Christmas period, with only strict relatives being advised for gatherings. Meaning, you don't organize a super party with 25 people attending.

[Hyperplex]

Our governor gave an update last week and while we are still below the CDC guide of 5% positivity in the state, our cases per 100k are over the threshold, and he did mention there are more cases amongst the younger population, while hospitalizations continue to trend towards the older population, which makes logical sense. There's been a sense of complacency dispersed as the numbers fell over the summer and the state opened back up bit by bit. We have been quite fortunate and diligent in this state but we aren't infallible and things are climbing, just not as rapidly as other regions. Personally, my family has been erring on the side of caution this entire time, and will continue to do so. We declined going to our niece's first birthday party since the mom was exposed but didn't get a test or self-quarantine (my SIL) and we caught hell from the family for it. In that same vein, we celebrated our own kids' birthdays just us at home, with phone and video calls to others. I'd rather have a less-than-exciting birthday than spread or catch COVID.

The governor's emphasis was on controlling the spread, since at the moment we do not appear to have a hospital crush or bed shortage, though he did point to a nursing shortage. His goal is to mitigate the continuing spread and avoid a massive upsurge and hospital crush. In my personal experience, I have only seen a handful of people not following our state's mask mandate in public, but I also know quite a few people personally who have let their guards down and come back with infections.

[hefdaddy42]

Masks are definitely important in situations where you are out in public or can't socially distance, but they aren't a suit of armor.  One huge item is just not going anywhere that you don't NEED to go.  There are tons of people living their life just like before the pandemic, except with a mask.  The more places you go, the more risk you take.

We haven't gone anywhere, really.  We get most groceries delivered.  We order any other items we want to purchase.  We don't go shopping anywhere other than occasional grocery trips to get something specific.  We don't go to restaurants.  I haven't been to a bookstore in months, which is sad, but I've ordered plenty of books.

[King Postwhore]

Recently the wife and I went to Vermont for our Anniversary.  We went to 2 restaurants.  Both were extremely well spaced for covid.  We didn't chance anything else and just drove the countryside and enjoyed Vermont.  The B&B was well spaced with 2 tables that has normally 6 people per table to only my wife and I for 45 minutes.

[hefdaddy42]

Recently the wife and I went to Vermont for our Anniversary.  We went to 2 restaurants.  Both were extremely well spaced for covid.  We didn't chance anything else and just drove the countryside and enjoyed Vermont.  The B&B was well spaced with 2 tables that has normally 6 people per table to only my wife and I for 45 minutes.

I'm glad you were able to do that.

But we wouldn't dream of it. 

[cramx3]

I think most things you can do are pretty safe, keep your distance, wash your hands, wear a mask, and it seems almost everything is not going to be that dangerous.  It's when you ease up on those things that you can put yourself in danger.  I don't see any evidence costco's are spreaders for example and the couple times I've gone during the pandemic, it's an insane amount of people where it's not possible to keep distance, but everyone wears a mask and you clean your hands and cart before entering/leaving.  The mask is not a guarantee though to keep you safe, so Hef is definitely right that limiting your exposure is the safest bet.

My road trip last month to Maine was a success (I didn't get sick) and it as my first time dining out and staying at hotels.  It was weird at first, but I never once felt unsafe (except the time I got take out from a bar in Boston and there was someone there drinking who wouldn't stop talking to me (and since we both had a drink our masks were off)  I finally just stopped talking back and he got the hint, but the rules did have us separated a bit at the bar)

I also think, because I've been showing up to work throughout the entire pandemic, that I feel a bit more comfortable being out.  Having said that, I literally do nothing besides grocery shopping and walks in the parks.

However, my parents are really pushing me to come to Florida for Christmas and I'm starting to lean to flying down there.  I have the time off from work, my boss supports the idea, and everything I've read says flying is actually really safe.  My parents are cool with it too.  I'm doing Thanksgiving solo this year and I'd really rather not do Christmas solo too.  It would just be with my immediate family (most of will already be in Florida from Thanksgiving) and no plans on really doing anything outside the house besides the flights there and back.

[Ben_Jamin]

Unbelievable that after all this time in the richest country on the entire planet and we are still in the worst shape of ANYONE else and it's not even close.  126K cases yesterday, an all-time high.  And those are just the ones we know about, some estimates say the actual caseload is somewhere between 3 and 5 times greater than what's reported in the media because we simply can't test everyone so thousands of cases are going undetected here because we fucking suck.

Just asking but on what basis?

According to the web page listed in the OP of this very thread. USA is #1 in cases, but #16 in cases per million. #10 in deaths per million. So I guess it depends on how you look at it, but we certainly can't be proud of our response to the pandemic. Most of the countries who can be said to have it worse than us, don't have our wealth or resources.

I could take the bolded statement literally, we are one of the most unhealthy countries and covid clearly doesn't go well for people who are already unhealthy so naturally we would be one of the worst if not the worst.

Dude, America was the country to begin the production of Modern Processed Foods, The most unhealthiest form of food, and then rose the Fast Food Industry, full of Unhealthy Fats and Non-Nutritious Food products. It's actually no surprise at all that we are this Unhealthy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_processing#Nutrient_losses
https://modernpioneermom.com/2012/07/05/processed-foods-history-1910s-to-1950s/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/processed-foods

[King Postwhore]

Recently the wife and I went to Vermont for our Anniversary.  We went to 2 restaurants.  Both were extremely well spaced for covid.  We didn't chance anything else and just drove the countryside and enjoyed Vermont.  The B&B was well spaced with 2 tables that has normally 6 people per table to only my wife and I for 45 minutes.

I'm glad you were able to do that.

But we wouldn't dream of it.

I wouldn't lie to say I wasn't nervous.  We avoided any large groups at all and did not walk on any downtown areas.

[Hyperplex]

We traveled in June/July to my condo at the beach. If we were outside, we were masked. The community is private and has a private security force that enforced social distancing on the beach (umbrella groups no closer than 10 feet apart) and strict occupancy limits in the pools, which closed every 2 hours for thorough disinfecting. Masks were required anywhere social distancing was compromised, like in stairwells, and elevator occupancy was limited to individual family groups at a time. For the most part, all guests and owners followed the rules and the community reported that they had not a single positive COVID test result or any reports of exposure throughout the summer season, be it among staff or guests. That said, we didn't really go anywhere. We took advantage of socially distant beach and pool use, and carried in or cooked all of our meals. Places were offering contactless delivery and curbside pickup.

That's all we've done. My kids have been wonderful sports about this entire ordeal, and I feel very fortunate for that, and I am extremely comforted by knowing that my family is safely ensconced in our home. We get groceries, packages, and food delivered when possible. Can't say the same for my wife's extended family, who held a large gathering in a restaurant to honor her grandmother, who passed from COVID.....most without masks, a few who had potential prior exposure, and several who are frontline nurses. We did not attend, as heart wrenching as that was for my wife.

[cramx3]

Can't say the same for my wife's extended family, who held a large gathering in a restaurant to honor her grandmother, who passed from COVID.....most without masks, a few who had potential prior exposure, and several who are frontline nurses. We did not attend, as heart wrenching as that was for my wife.

Yea, I had a similar experience.  My grandma passed from covid in April which at that time, we couldn't gather at all, but in like June the family set up a service and a lunch, so I went to the service where there were only like 20 of us, socially distant with masks on the entire time.  I told everyone I had to go back to work and couldn't do the lunch, but the reality is, I wasn't comfortable taking the masks off to break bread with my extended family. A significiant amount of the extended family didn't come to the service because they weren't comfortable.  It lead to lots of fighting which was really bothersome to me.  I think, today, I would feel more comfortable doing the lunch, but not by much.  Having 20 people gather to eat and drink still sounds like it's not the best idea, especially with most being over the age of 50.

[Hyperplex]

I am sorry for your loss, which I likely missed if you mentioned it while I read through the thread.

The animosity we have faced from her family for simply wanting to be cautious and keep ourselves safe is disheartening and has been a bit of a crisis for my wife. Different stories for different times.

[cramx3]

I am sorry for your loss, which I likely missed if you mentioned it while I read through the thread.

The animosity we have faced from her family for simply wanting to be cautious and keep ourselves safe is disheartening and has been a bit of a crisis for my wife. Different stories for different times.

Sorry for your loss as well, it just sucks to see the fighting internally in a family because of the pandemic.  Like, I don't understand why we can't be understanding of each other's feelings and cautiousness.  It SUCKS, but it shouldn't be taken personally.  Just trying to do our part in keeping ourselves and others safe.

[jingle.boy]

Here's my source for cases and deaths per million.  Just over the summer and into early fall, we were No. 10 or 11 on cases per million, so we're improving on that metric*.   Not that we should be celebrating that other countries have more sick people per capita, but a little perspective is in order.

I'm wondering if the US is trending such that they are falling down to 16th, or the countries are trending such that they are surpassing the US? 

And as for resources, also not a complete picture.   If you look at this list of "best Healthcare in the world", San Marino and Andorra are better than us, and Andorra has the most cases per million of ANY country in the world, San Marino fourteenth. 

Are you really comparing the US situation against a country who's population is 77,000 over a 450² meter patch of land that is basically a suburb of France ... or Spain (take your pick)? C'mon man, you're better than that.  One cluster / outbreak and they're the worst country in the world!

[jingle.boy]

Masks are definitely important in situations where you are out in public or can't socially distance, but they aren't a suit of armor.  One huge item is just not going anywhere that you don't NEED to go.  There are tons of people living their life just like before the pandemic, except with a mask.  The more places you go, the more risk you take.

We haven't gone anywhere, really.  We get most groceries delivered.  We order any other items we want to purchase.  We don't go shopping anywhere other than occasional grocery trips to get something specific.  We don't go to restaurants.  I haven't been to a bookstore in months, which is sad, but I've ordered plenty of books.

This is the jingle.household to a tee.

Minus the books and reading.

[Podaar]

Are you really comparing the US situation against a country who's population is 77,000 over a 450² meter patch of land that is basically a suburb of France ... or Spain (take your pick)? C'mon man, you're better than that.  One cluster / outbreak and they're the worst country in the world!

Yeah, that got a pretty big laugh out of me yesterday. Stads has got to be kidding. Right?

[Stadler]

Here's my source for cases and deaths per million.  Just over the summer and into early fall, we were No. 10 or 11 on cases per million, so we're improving on that metric*.   Not that we should be celebrating that other countries have more sick people per capita, but a little perspective is in order.

I'm wondering if the US is trending such that they are falling down to 16th, or the countries are trending such that they are surpassing the US? 

And as for resources, also not a complete picture.   If you look at this list of "best Healthcare in the world", San Marino and Andorra are better than us, and Andorra has the most cases per million of ANY country in the world, San Marino fourteenth. 

Are you really comparing the US situation against a country who's population is 77,000 over a 450² meter patch of land that is basically a suburb of France ... or Spain (take your pick)? C'mon man, you're better than that.  One cluster / outbreak and they're the worst country in the world!

Data is data.   The comment was we are the worst, and it's not even close.   We're not the worst, and it is close.

We can quibble about "square milage" (and you can ignore the entire rest of my post that DIDN'T focus on Andorra), but Andorra is between France and Spain; we're 16th on the list of cases per million, Spain is 18th (a difference of 3%), and France is 20th (a difference of about 12%).   In the "deaths per million" category, we're 10th and Spain is 5th (understand that: with better healthcare, more people who get sick in Spain die of COVID than in the US).  This isn't me isolating an island in the middle of the Pacific and trying to equate it with the US, and it's embarrassing that you would think that.    I'd be happy to use Spain, or France, or, if you will, the entire three countries combined, and my point is still made.  That is ultimately the point, though: WE NEED TO DO THE MATH. 

In fact, let's do that.

US:   331.0M            10.6M cases        246.0k deaths       31.9k cases/m       742 deaths/m

Spain:  46.8M
France: 65.3M
Andorra:  77.3k
Total:  112.1M           3.3M cases         81.9k deaths         29.4k cases/m        730 deaths/m

Reminder:  in the other cite I gave just a handful of posts above, in terms of "healthcare ranks", France is 1, Andorra is 4, and Spain is 7.  We are - with Obamacare in place for 12 years now - 37th.   And yet the numbers are in single digit percentages of each other (the deaths/m is literally a 1.5% difference).   

[jingle.boy]

Now that is insightful analysis!  Seriously.

Also, I know exactly where Andorra is (in case that wasn't clear).  I did a paper on the country in Grade 10 Geography.  I subtitled it "the place where there is very little place".  I don't remember anything else about it.

[cramx3]

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

[Stadler]

Now that is insightful analysis!  Seriously.

Also, I know exactly where Andorra is (in case that wasn't clear).  I did a paper on the country in Grade 10 Geography.  I subtitled it "the place where there is very little place".  I don't remember anything else about it.

I can't remember what SCHOOL I was in in 10th grade.  That's not true, but close.

Also, I know YOU know, you said it; I put it in there lest some joker say "But Stads, why did you just pick France and Spain!".   And France doesn't help my numbers; I'd've been better to leave it out if I was looking to game things.

[jingle.boy]

Now that is insightful analysis!  Seriously.

Also, I know exactly where Andorra is (in case that wasn't clear).  I did a paper on the country in Grade 10 Geography.  I subtitled it "the place where there is very little place".  I don't remember anything else about it.

I can't remember what SCHOOL I was in in 10th grade.  That's not true, but close.

Also, I know YOU know, you said it; I put it in there lest some joker say "But Stads, why did you just pick France and Spain!".   And France doesn't help my numbers; I'd've been better to leave it out if I was looking to game things.

   Just wasn't sure why you referenced a Pacific island.  All cool, mang.

[ProfessorPeart]

A school district just north of me has reported some great numbers. Within less than a week from returning to in school instruction, the district now has over 300 teachers and students in quarantine due to the virus. They are struggling to find substitute teachers to even teach the classes.

The high school announced 11 positive cases the day before they were going to return.

The district had a board meeting to announce a full return to virtual learning. They had 5 people speak to the board. 3 of them vehemently argued for a return to the classroom. Oh, and all 3 were from the same family. 

Everyday I feel better that my son chose to stay virtual.

[lordxizor]

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

Curious about the legality of stuff like this. I suspect lots of companies will try to have stipulations like this. In my opinion, a company has absolutely no right to know my medical status. I think it's questionable whether they have the right to take my temperature before I enter their building.

[Hyperplex]

A school district just north of me has reported some great numbers. Within less than a week from returning to in school instruction, the district now has over 300 teachers and students in quarantine due to the virus. They are struggling to find substitute teachers to even teach the classes.

The high school announced 11 positive cases the day before they were going to return.

The district had a board meeting to announce a full return to virtual learning. They had 5 people speak to the board. 3 of them vehemently argued for a return to the classroom. Oh, and all 3 were from the same family. 

Everyday I feel better that my son chose to stay virtual.

Public schools in my county have remained 100% virtual despite VEHEMENT protests from parents that there is "no reason why students shouldn't be in schools." Many area private schools, who have a mere fraction of the public student population and mountains more resources, have opened hybrid models with impressive success. Both of my kids are virtual and will remain as such for the foreseeable future.

[cramx3]

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

Curious about the legality of stuff like this. I suspect lots of companies will try to have stipulations like this. In my opinion, a company has absolutely no right to know my medical status. I think it's questionable whether they have the right to take my temperature before I enter their building.

That article stated they are using an intermediary company so that medical records are not shared, but yea, I don't know the legalities, but for concerts, I'm going to guess since you don't need to go, as part of buying a ticket, you'll have to agree to the terms which could include vaccination or negative test result. 

The whole temperature check thing is a joke.  I get scanned everyday I come into work and it's totally meaningless for protecting against Corona.  No one should be going into work with a fever, pandemic or not IMO and you know when you have a fever.

[lordxizor]

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

Curious about the legality of stuff like this. I suspect lots of companies will try to have stipulations like this. In my opinion, a company has absolutely no right to know my medical status. I think it's questionable whether they have the right to take my temperature before I enter their building.

That article stated they are using an intermediary company so that medical records are not shared, but yea, I don't know the legalities, but for concerts, I'm going to guess since you don't need to go, as part of buying a ticket, you'll have to agree to the terms which could include vaccination or negative test result. 

The whole temperature check thing is a joke.  I get scanned everyday I come into work and it's totally meaningless for protecting against Corona.  No one should be going into work with a fever, pandemic or not IMO and you know when you have a fever.

Even with a third party involved, a private company is demanding to know your private medical info in order to use their services. This should not be legal.

And yes, the temperature check thing is only going to be more ridiculous as winter sets in. My work has one and my temp is usually around 92F when I scan myself in the morning due to the cold temperatures outside making my skin momentarily cold. I could be running a fever of 103F and it probably wouldn't catch me.

[Stadler]

Just saw this on facebook...

https://loudwire.com/ticketmaster-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test/

Will be interesting how they can make this work without it being a clusterfuck, but maybe it will get some anti vaxxers to get the vaccine.

I can also see a lot of jobs requiring it to return to offices, same with schools.

Curious about the legality of stuff like this. I suspect lots of companies will try to have stipulations like this. In my opinion, a company has absolutely no right to know my medical status. I think it's questionable whether they have the right to take my temperature before I enter their building.

The legality of a number of things are certainly in question around COVID.  I can't tell you if it's "legal" for "x" to take your temperature; it probably depends a lot on the situation, including "x".  But I feel more comfortable saying they DO have the right to not let you in to their premises if certain criteria aren't met.  Again, depends on the premises (schools aren't the same as concert venues) but there's always going to be a decision point on this stuff. 

[Stadler]

A school district just north of me has reported some great numbers. Within less than a week from returning to in school instruction, the district now has over 300 teachers and students in quarantine due to the virus. They are struggling to find substitute teachers to even teach the classes.

The high school announced 11 positive cases the day before they were going to return.

The district had a board meeting to announce a full return to virtual learning. They had 5 people speak to the board. 3 of them vehemently argued for a return to the classroom. Oh, and all 3 were from the same family. 

Everyday I feel better that my son chose to stay virtual.

Public schools in my county have remained 100% virtual despite VEHEMENT protests from parents that there is "no reason why students shouldn't be in schools." Many area private schools, who have a mere fraction of the public student population and mountains more resources, have opened hybrid models with impressive success. Both of my kids are virtual and will remain as such for the foreseeable future.

It depends what you mean by "impressive success".   My town is hybrid, moving toward full virtual (we expect the call any day now).   I've written frequently that though it's moderately successful from a COVID standpoint, my kid hasn't learned a damn thing since February.   It's not working at all from an education standpoint, and so many things are more... lax, though that isn't the right word, now that we're virtual.   We had no problem calling a meeting and going in and sitting with the administration if performance wasn't where it should be, and now everytihng is emails and phone, and you just do not have the full attention of the people you need full attention from in that scenario.  We are to the point we are more than likely moving, solely because of the school system.   My choice, I get that, and I'm fine with it, but in my town there are no "impressive successes" when it comes to the school and COVID.

[Hyperplex]

By impressive success I was referring to mitigating the spread of COVID amongst the students who were attending school on campus. The private school where my daughter goes (which is where I went, and hopefully where my son will attend next year) has had zero incidence of school community spread of the virus and the only quarantining that has been required has been for possible exposure from outside the school environment. They send weekly reports to all alumni, families, staff, and faculty.

Private schools have MANY added luxuries and resource a public system simply just doesn't have. They seem to be using them to their advantage.
I will add, though, that given the current state and trend of our state's metrics, I would not be surprised to see a pivot back to all virtual in the coming weeks. The school maintains constant communication of their preparedness should that be necessary.

As for their virtual school results, I can only speak for my daughter in kindergarten; she has been all virtual and she has thrived given the circumstances.
My son has had great success in public virtual school, though I recognize how wide and varied results are and can be. He enjoys the experience and his grades and assessments from his teachers reflect that.

[romdrums]

Our school district went to e-learning for Grades 6-12 because they don't have enough substitute teachers to cover the classes.  Manpower resources are being allocated to the elementary schools for the time being.  Remains to be seen how long that will last.  As cases continue to climb in my area, my county added just under 4,000 cases in the last week, I would not be surprised to see schools stay on e-learning through the holidays.

[Hyperplex]

Our school district went to e-learning for Grades 6-12 because they don't have enough substitute teachers to cover the classes.  Manpower resources are being allocated to the elementary schools for the time being.  Remains to be seen how long that will last.  As cases continue to climb in my area, my county added just under 4,000 cases in the last week, I would not be surprised to see schools stay on e-learning through the holidays.

My county's school system released a reopening plan that involves opening 4 separate special education day schools and phasing in grades PK through 2, all based on metrics. Prior to October, the decision was virtual through the month of January, with a choice, if available, of virtual or hybrid for the second semester. Given the current metrics trend, I cannot envision public schools returning from virtual in any form until the next school year. But I'm not an expert and could be extremely wrong. My kids will remain virtual as long as it is an option.

[ErHaO]

I really think it is not really all that valuable to just simply look at one countries total covid numbers and/or deaths and divide it by the population. Waaaay too many variables. Accurately reporting cases, living conditions/lifestyles, dynamics of the population etc. To really determine which country is doing worse would require a large combined effort of researchers across different fields. At least that is how I see it. And that analysis will unfortunately be hindsight. It also depends on the definition of worse.

For example, I could write a post about the state of New York (19,5 million) compared to The Netherlands (17 million) and compare deaths thus far (34 thousand vs 8,5 thousand). But I feel that isn't scientifically proper at all. We, for example, do not have a "hotspot" town with more than 8 million people. And then the state of New York is 141.300 km˛ and The Netherlands only 41,865 km˛ and a lot of very interconnected "hotspot" towns close to each other. Those are just two differences that can mean so many things for how spread takes place. And a lot of variables tend to be hard to put into numbers. And I know one is a state and the other is a country, but that is another example of how you can select and analyze datasets very differently. And I am most certainly not an expert on that field.

[Stadler]

I really think it is not really all that valuable to just simply look at one countries total covid numbers and/or deaths and divide it by the population. Waaaay too many variables. Accurately reporting cases, living conditions/lifestyles, dynamics of the population etc. To really determine which country is doing worse would require a large combined effort of researchers across different fields. At least that is how I see it. And that analysis will unfortunately be hindsight. It also depends on the definition of worse.

For example, I could write a post about the state of New York (19,5 million) compared to The Netherlands (17 million) and compare deaths thus far (34 thousand vs 8,5 thousand). But I feel that isn't scientifically proper at all. We, for example, do not have a "hotspot" town with more than 8 million people. And then the state of New York is 141.300 km˛ and The Netherlands only 41,865 km˛ and a lot of very interconnected "hotspot" towns close to each other. Those are just two differences that can mean so many things for how spread takes place. And a lot of variables tend to be hard to put into numbers. And I know one is a state and the other is a country, but that is another example of how you can select and analyze datasets very differently. And I am most certainly not an expert on that field.

I agree with you, strongly, but the same arguments you make for not just dividing by population hold for just taking raw numbers, too.  There are simply too many variables.  This is a fantastic example of where the quippy soundbite just does not do the issue justice.  It cannot be measured accurately in one neat, nice statistic. 

[MirrorMask]

Many of the variables are also human, and about social conventions. In Italy there are generally many older people, so there's more people at risk to begin with. Also in Italy a lot of people still live with their parents well into adulthood, so the chances of contagions in the family is higher.

Similar nations also have different clusters of population. Paris in France is a megacity that has 1/6th or so of the entire population; Italy has not such a big cities and the two biggest one, Rome and Milan, are spread apart. The Netherlands is smaller and is close to Germany with which, I assume, there are many exchanges on both sides of the border.... basically in Europe you can't look at what one nation is doing and apply it to another one because there are so many differences.

[cramx3]

Many of the variables are also human, and about social conventions. In Italy there are generally many older people, so there's more people at risk to begin with. Also in Italy a lot of people still live with their parents well into adulthood, so the chances of contagions in the family is higher.

Similar nations also have different clusters of population. Paris in France is a megacity that has 1/6th or so of the entire population; Italy has not such a big cities and the two biggest one, Rome and Milan, are spread apart. The Netherlands is smaller and is close to Germany with which, I assume, there are many exchanges on both sides of the border.... basically in Europe you can't look at what one nation is doing and apply it to another one because there are so many differences.

You could say the same thing about the states in the US.  Every state has different demographics and is handling the pandemic differently. It's really hard to take everything into account and try to find some key stats.  There's so many variables.