Coronavirus

[MirrorMask]

The problem with saying "we are all in this together" is that we aren't. Some people are able to work from home, some jobs are considered "essential." Other people are out of work, others have their businesses shut down, and have lost their life savings. The virus can wreck and kill some people, and others will be fine in a few days. We are not all being affected equally, which makes it harder to address it equally.

That's why we owe to each other to all row in the same direction. I'm one of the lucky ones, I'm working from home, I didn't lose a penny over the virus - heck, I even saved some because I no longer take the subway. I'm trying to do my part, I'm not always going around, I wear the mask and deliberately avoid every single person that comes my way, to the point that probably I'm overdoing it because you don't catch the virus by a random stranger that, while being silent, walks you by for less of a second... still, I'm staying away from *everyone*

If I don't get the virus the few family people I interact with don't get it, and if they don't get it, they don't give it to someone else, and those someone else don't give it to someone else still and so on. I like a saying that goes "No drop believes to be responsable for the flood", well, if we all don't spread our droplets around, the chain of contagion ends and those people who are suffering economically from it will no longer have their shops closed.

Also, we all need to go and see concerts in 2021 so we'd all better stand united because there is no way in hell I'm gonna miss Iron Maiden in summer 2021, let's all be prepared in time 

[jingle.boy]

I agree wholeheartedly 100% with Mirror's post above.  Maybe it's because I'm not a terribly social person to begin with, but I just don't see the risk/reward benefit of getting together with large(ish) crowds.  I'd rather make the mistake of being overly cautious, than (what could be) the bigger mistake of not being cautious enough.

[MoraWintersoul]

Same. Sometimes I think "okay, so what if we catch it, if this is gonna go on for a while I can't be expected not to catch something as contagious as the freaking flu for another year or however long it will take for vaccinations to be available", but then I remember all the cases I've heard of young healthy people just dropping dead of this thing and I freeze.

[ReaperKK]

Have you been working on your Indian accent?

lol wut? We do have a support team in India but no data center there and I've never travelled there nor deal with our support over the phone, just in chat.Just doin the needful

At my job there is always so much needful that needs to kindly be done

[Ben_Jamin]

Same. Sometimes I think "okay, so what if we catch it, if this is gonna go on for a while I can't be expected not to catch something as contagious as the freaking flu for another year or however long it will take for vaccinations to be available", but then I remember all the cases I've heard of young healthy people just dropping dead of this thing and I freeze.

That's how inject fear. How many young people have actually dropped dead, like they say. I could see it in China because their air is really bad and in turn their health and lungs are bad, which would cause a person to drop dead from lack of oxygen and you can't tell because they have a mask on.

Our cases are rising again. Doesn't surprise me as Flu season is here, and allergy season as well. Sucks for me because my allergies hit my sinuses. So our magnificent govener, implemented a no visiting other states, yet other states are still allowed here. And gatherings of people no more than 5 ( even lower than her usual 10) can be held. But we can still eat inside.

[jingle.boy]

Have you been working on your Indian accent?

lol wut? We do have a support team in India but no data center there and I've never travelled there nor deal with our support over the phone, just in chat.Just doin the needful

At my job there is always so much needful that needs to kindly be done

And they'll revert back next week, amirite?

[MoraWintersoul]

That's how inject fear. How many young people have actually dropped dead, like they say.

Even if only 1 out of 100000 young people end up croaking, I'm just about unlucky enough to be one of them 

[ErHaO]

Offcourse the chance of dying is slim if you are young. Do keep in mind the chance of having significant/permanent damage (neurological/cardiovascular/respiratory) is probably way higher than dying. Here, persistent health issues seem to be a fairly common problem, even among people in their early 30's.

In general I think if you have the chance to prevent infection and if there truly is a vaccine in sight, it is best to keep safe for the time being. We don't know what the long term complications of covid are or can be. Who knows, the virus attacks basically the entire body and has been shown to leave a lot of damage in variety of organs.

I agree you shouldn't panic or live in fear, but there is a huge amount of space between totally freaking out and sitting scared at home or taking basic precautions and alter your lifestyle for the time being. If more people did the latter rather than not giving a fuck, I really do believe we would be in a better place as society right now, in my country (allowing smaller scale events, bars to stay open etc.).

And what should at least somewhat scare anyone is basic healthcare shutting down. In our country an official estimate was that if we keep out current trajectory, 75% of regular healthcare could have to shut down. That is a very bad scenario and will do a lot more damage than just the bad covid cases.

[cramx3]

So my coworker and I rotate days we go in because we share an office and being there together pretty much breaks social distancing rules.... well on Thursday he said he was off on Monday so I came in today, not only was he there, but he had three visitors (reps, not like random people) in the office, all over my desk and none wearing masks.  I was like WTF? and he said he meant Monday of next week (I found the quote, he fucked it up as he no where implied it was in TWO weeks) and I walked out and left, specifically saying this didn't seem safe.  I wrote a note to my boss (who is on vacation) just now.  Part of me feels like a bitch, but I'm livid for being put in that situation.  The other part that bothers me so much is if he arranged for these reps to come in, why didn't he let me know that as well, like even  if he didn't expect me to show up, the fact all these people were going to be there should be something I am aware of. 

[Chino]

I would have done the same thing.

[jingle.boy]

I would have done the same thing.

Same.

[Grappler]

Don't worry about it Cram - there is nothing wrong with advising a boss about a coworker that isn't adhering to protocols. 

My 5-year old daughter tested negative.  We took her to the doctor last week since she was complaining of earaches and she's been sniffling for weeks.  The doctor said it's likely allergies (mine have been awful this year), but they gave her a COVID test to rule it out.  She was very brave and handled it as well as a 5 year old can.  She may be coming down with a cold, but at least we know it isn't anything more serious.  We weren't worried about the results, but it's still a weird mental game of "what if" and trying to figure out all of the places she or my family have been if we had to deal with contract tracing after a positive result. 

[ProfessorPeart]

Just saw a guy on the news this morning announcing he is moving to Indiana due to no school sports in Illinois. Called the politicians a bunch of scaredy-cats. He says that kids being able to participate in sports is more important than the death count. 

Clearly, he is one of those obnoxious a-holes at kids games that you just want to punch out. I say good-riddance.

[Stadler]

Don't worry about it Cram - there is nothing wrong with advising a boss about a coworker that isn't adhering to protocols. 

My 5-year old daughter tested negative.  We took her to the doctor last week since she was complaining of earaches and she's been sniffling for weeks.  The doctor said it's likely allergies (mine have been awful this year), but they gave her a COVID test to rule it out.  She was very brave and handled it as well as a 5 year old can.  She may be coming down with a cold, but at least we know it isn't anything more serious.  We weren't worried about the results, but it's still a weird mental game of "what if" and trying to figure out all of the places she or my family have been if we had to deal with contract tracing after a positive result.

Happy to hear that she's negative. It's bad enough watching young children be sick.

[cramx3]

Don't worry about it Cram - there is nothing wrong with advising a boss about a coworker that isn't adhering to protocols. 

My 5-year old daughter tested negative.  We took her to the doctor last week since she was complaining of earaches and she's been sniffling for weeks.  The doctor said it's likely allergies (mine have been awful this year), but they gave her a COVID test to rule it out.  She was very brave and handled it as well as a 5 year old can.  She may be coming down with a cold, but at least we know it isn't anything more serious.  We weren't worried about the results, but it's still a weird mental game of "what if" and trying to figure out all of the places she or my family have been if we had to deal with contract tracing after a positive result.

Happy to hear that she's negative. It's bad enough watching young children be sick.

How is your daughter doing, Stadler?

[Stadler]

Just saw a guy on the news this morning announcing he is moving to Indiana due to no school sports in Illinois. Called the politicians a bunch of scaredy-cats. He says that kids being able to participate in sports is more important than the death count. 

Clearly, he is one of those obnoxious a-holes at kids games that you just want to punch out. I say good-riddance.

I too think that's ridiculous, but it is a fine line.  Here in CT, when the CIAC (the governing body for high school sports) cancelled the fall football season, it was a front page story.  There were more protests in Hartford (over that) than I saw for any of the BLM or related issues.   Two schools even decided to "form their own league" and schedule games.   And we're a relatively sedate, very blue state that has been doing most of the right things so far.

I was talking to a colleague of mine who coaches his daughter's soccer team, and in their league he has to police his teams fans for masks and such; he says it's BY FAR the worst part of any coaching gig he's ever done.  He's an attorney and a FANTASTIC negotiator, and he says every conversation is an active one, because he has to be ready for whatever nonsense (or sense) that comes back.

I see both sides of this.  Maybe not full contact, 11-on-11 sports, but I see a contrast between my step son and my grandson; the first has been almost exclusively remote, but has just started two days a week in person, and he (being on the spectrum) is really suffering for the 8-month gap in personal interaction.  My grandson had a slight speech impediment, and his parents have opted to continue having him in pre-school as much as they can, and the interaction with other kids and his teachers has improved his speaking 100-fold.  He's three, and it will be incrementally harder to achieve this growth later in life.  I know "death" is final, but we're also talking about non-viral impacts to the rest of these kids lives.  That's heavy shit.   

[The Walrus]

Just saw a guy on the news this morning announcing he is moving to Indiana due to no school sports in Illinois. Called the politicians a bunch of scaredy-cats. He says that kids being able to participate in sports is more important than the death count. 

Clearly, he is one of those obnoxious a-holes at kids games that you just want to punch out. I say good-riddance.

Illinois Man strikes again

[cramx3]

I'd say that guy is extreme, but there is some fine line between death from covid and the death of society and growth.  I can potentially see someone make an argument that sports are important and should be played, but when you say it's more important than the death count, you kind of lose your point. 

Here is an article about how schools turn out to not be the super spreaders everyone predicted they would be:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/schools-arent-superspreaders/616669/

One might argue, again, that any risk is too great, and that schools must be completely safe before local governments move to reopen them. But this approach ignores the enormous costs to children from closed schools.

[The Walrus]

People who are THAT upset about sports being down really need to find additional hobbies to fill their clearly abundant free time

[cramx3]

People who are THAT upset about sports being down really need to find additional hobbies to fill their clearly abundant free time

The only way I can see someone being that extreme with sports is if their high school kid needed to play to get a scholarship to a college.  Like, that's a lot of money and a future for the kid to make it worth it to find a way for him/her to play. 

[Luoto]

Researchers in Finland have found that based on the first wave of cases, only 1 in 6 people that carried the virus passed it on to others, and only 1 in 20 infected more than one person. I'm not sure how well it represents the bigger picture since not nearly all cases were found during the first wave, but the virus seems to rely on superspreaders if it's an accurate enough representation. Apparently the original SARS showed a similar spread pattern.

[cramx3]

Researchers in Finland have found that based on the first wave of cases, only 1 in 6 people that carried the virus passed it on to others, and only 1 in 20 infected more than one person. I'm not sure how well it represents the bigger picture since not nearly all cases were found during the first wave, but the virus seems to rely on superspreaders if it's an accurate enough representation. Apparently the original SARS showed a similar spread pattern.

Interesting, I wonder what makes one a be the superspreader.  Like for example, I read about blood type may play a role in how bad you get it or vitamin D maybe playing a role in reducing your chances of a bad case.  It would be interesting to know if they could do a blood test on someone and determine how likely they would have a bad infection and how likely they would be to spread to others.

[cramx3]

So my sister's step son was at their house over the weekend and he got real sick, tested and was positive today.  Now my sister and her husband are feeling sick so it seems likely the spread was all through their house.  My two baby nieces while fine, probably have it too.  Apparently the step sons was traced back to his step father who while knowingly felt sick, was forced to pick the step son up from school by the mom and now it's spread. 

So I was there, not this past weekend, but the previous Sunday and he wasn't there so I feel confident I didn't catch it previously, but there is some doubt that being it's a two week lag sometimes, that it could potentially have spread to me.  I don't think so because he wasn't there, but you never know.  Has me thinking about my situation yesterday where I felt unsafe around these vendors without masks on but maybe the reality is they shouldn't of felt safe around me. 

THIS IS THE REASON FOR MASKS AND SOCIAL DISTANCING! 

[jingle.boy]

Damn Marc. Hitting a little too close to home. Fingers crossed for ya.

[cramx3]

Damn Marc. Hitting a little too close to home. Fingers crossed for ya.

Yea, I'm not surprised though.  My little sister/husband are anti-vaxxers and really haven't taken the social distancing thing too well.  Some of it, I can imagine being difficult with two toddlers, but some of it is definitely their radical beliefs.  Luckily, everyone there is younger than me and not in too bad of health generally.  Both are smokers though, so it is concerning obviously, but I'm more just annoyed with people who don't take this seriously and spreading it.  I already lost my grandma, it's hit home already.  You'd think that would make a difference in the mentality.  I'm just glad I didn't stop by last weekend which I was considering doing.

[jingle.boy]

I remember you mentioning that your family was having gatherings, and not exactly diligent in taking appropriated measures.

[King Postwhore]

People only think of themselves not if the could affect others in their lives.

[TAC]

Damn Marc. Hitting a little too close to home. Fingers crossed for ya.

Yea, I'm not surprised though.  My little sister/husband are anti-vaxxers and really haven't taken the social distancing thing too well.  Some of it, I can imagine being difficult with two toddlers, but some of it is definitely their radical beliefs.  Luckily, everyone there is younger than me and not in too bad of health generally.  Both are smokers though, so it is concerning obviously, but I'm more just annoyed with people who don't take this seriously and spreading it.  I already lost my grandma, it's hit home already.  You'd think that would make a difference in the mentality.  I'm just glad I didn't stop by last weekend which I was considering doing.

Well, the good news is that it doesn't sound like you were exposed.


Some people just live their lives differently, and perhaps they just don't understand. I was upset with my sister in law a few months back when my son graduated high school, and she wouldn't even get next to him to take a picture.

My mother in law's step children (grown adults, obviously) aren't maskers, and even went to Florida recently and my MIL won't let them in her house. And her husband (their father) is over 80.

[cramx3]

Damn Marc. Hitting a little too close to home. Fingers crossed for ya.

Yea, I'm not surprised though.  My little sister/husband are anti-vaxxers and really haven't taken the social distancing thing too well.  Some of it, I can imagine being difficult with two toddlers, but some of it is definitely their radical beliefs.  Luckily, everyone there is younger than me and not in too bad of health generally.  Both are smokers though, so it is concerning obviously, but I'm more just annoyed with people who don't take this seriously and spreading it.  I already lost my grandma, it's hit home already.  You'd think that would make a difference in the mentality.  I'm just glad I didn't stop by last weekend which I was considering doing.

Well, the good news is that it doesn't sound like you were exposed.


Some people just live their lives differently, and perhaps they just don't understand. I was upset with my sister in law a few months back when my son graduated high school, and she wouldn't even get next to him to take a picture.

My mother in law's step children (grown adults, obviously) aren't maskers, and even went to Florida recently and my MIL won't let them in her house. And her husband (their father) is over 80.

Yea, I recall this story.  I just feel I've had a few accumulative instances that kind of piled up and I'm a bit raging. Now, our Governor is "requesting no more interstate travel other than PA and CT"

[MirrorMask]

Researchers in Finland have found that based on the first wave of cases, only 1 in 6 people that carried the virus passed it on to others, and only 1 in 20 infected more than one person. I'm not sure how well it represents the bigger picture since not nearly all cases were found during the first wave, but the virus seems to rely on superspreaders if it's an accurate enough representation. Apparently the original SARS showed a similar spread pattern.

Interesting, I wonder what makes one a be the superspreader.  Like for example, I read about blood type may play a role in how bad you get it or vitamin D maybe playing a role in reducing your chances of a bad case.  It would be interesting to know if they could do a blood test on someone and determine how likely they would have a bad infection and how likely they would be to spread to others.

It has to be said that Finland is nowhere near the levels of population density of the major US cities, or many other european countries - my north Italy for example is completely clustered in Lombardy and in Milan and obviously that's where the most cases happen.

Then of course I'm no expert on the matter so I believe researches blaming superspreaders, but I would assume a superspreader's "job" is facilitated by living in zones with a high density population.

[MirrorMask]

BTW, over the course of less than 24 hours this happened:

- Xmas markets cancelled in the mountains
- An Halloweenish open air little fair on a lake cancelled (I was usually going to the summer ones of the same organization)
- A symbolic make-up date for a beloved folk festival attended by basically everyone I know cancelled

Meh. This is not the year to have fun.

[Luoto]

It has to be said that Finland is nowhere near the levels of population density of the major US cities, or many other european countries - my north Italy for example is completely clustered in Lombardy and in Milan and obviously that's where the most cases happen.

Our current worst area is actually not in the most dense part of the country, which currently has about 83 cases per 100,000 people (capital region). The administrative health region of Vaasa, which has a total population of 140,000, is at a staggering 332 cases per 100,000 people (the largest city probably has something like 500/100k). Majority of cases are young adults.

There's another interesting new discovery about the genetics of the virus which explains it's high contagion rate. Researchers found the virus has another "key" inside the human cell in addition to the already known Ace-2, called neuropilin. It's the same genetic piece that's also possessed by highly dangerous viruses such as HIV, ebola and the avian flu. Once this piece was removed from the virus in lab conditions, infections decreased by more than 40%. (Source: Science / Helsingin Sanomat)

[ErHaO]

It has to be said that Finland is nowhere near the levels of population density of the major US cities, or many other european countries - my north Italy for example is completely clustered in Lombardy and in Milan and obviously that's where the most cases happen.

Our current worst area is actually not in the most dense part of the country, which currently has about 83 cases per 100,000 people (capital region). The administrative health region of Vaasa, which has a total population of 140,000, is at a staggering 332 cases per 100,000 people (the largest city probably has something like 500/100k). Majority of cases are young adults.

There's another interesting new discovery about the genetics of the virus which explains it's high contagion rate. Researchers found the virus has another "key" inside the human cell in addition to the already known Ace-2, called neuropilin. It's the same genetic piece that's also possessed by highly dangerous viruses such as HIV, ebola and the avian flu. Once this piece was removed from the virus in lab conditions, infections decreased by more than 40%. (Source: Science / Helsingin Sanomat)

Somewhere during the first peak a mutation occurred in the spike protein of the virus (several publications have shown this). (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-70827-z).  There is now data indicating this mutation has increased infectivity and that this variant has become the most common spread over time.

Edit: a better source. Offcourse many groups are looking into this.
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30820-5?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420308205%3Fshowall%3Dtrue




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7310631/

Do keep in mind this particular article is pre-print, so peer reviews are still in process.

[Stadler]

Does that (possibly) explain the (seemingly less) potency as well?  Meaning, does that mutation that seems to increase infectivity also possibly affect how bad the infection is? 

I don't trust my perception - limited data, lamestream media*, lack of context - but it seems as if there are more asymptomatic (or "low" symptom) cases.





* No, not a Trump or Fox thing; shorthand for the sensationalism of much of the coverage; I've already written about how my local news seems to start every broadcast with "New, devastating milestone in the COVID pandemic <solemn look> 4,500... pause... and 60 deaths here in CT" (when yesterday it was 4,559).)

[ErHaO]

Does that (possibly) explain the (seemingly less) potency as well?  Meaning, does that mutation that seems to increase infectivity also possibly affect how bad the infection is? 

I don't trust my perception - limited data, lamestream media*, lack of context - but it seems as if there are more asymptomatic (or "low" symptom) cases.





* No, not a Trump or Fox thing; shorthand for the sensationalism of much of the coverage; I've already written about how my local news seems to start every broadcast with "New, devastating milestone in the COVID pandemic <solemn look> 4,500... pause... and 60 deaths here in CT" (when yesterday it was 4,559).)

As far as I know, there is no indication of the virus being less potent as of now.

Some considerations:
-Testing and administration is on a whole other scale than during the initial peaks.
-Treatments have significantly improved. Several drugs have been approved for the treatment of patients. And doctors simply have more experience (what type of treatment works best in what situation). The chance of dying has decreased significantly (our media reported on the improved treatments a while ago, and I spoke to doctors at work who treat patients).
-In our country the average age of the positive cases is significantly lower. For the USA I will refer to this: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6939e1.htm

Also, while the lower chance of dying is great news, the real danger of hospitals being overwhelmed is unfortunately still relevant. If we reach the point where people cannot get treatment because there is no place/are no resources, deaths will very likely increase exponentially. Which is why so many governments keep opting for lockdown scenarios. In our case we are/were headed to such a scenario.

As for real time numbers, the lag between testing positive, being hospitalised, and dying remains long. Especially now that testing is common and quick, detection can occur before a person is symptomatic. A current peak in positive tests can become a real problem for a hospital a couple of weeks later.