Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 435722 times)

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Online Stadler

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4095 on: June 29, 2020, 11:45:28 AM »
Studly, while I mostly agree, doesn't "tend to your own garden" maybe not apply to infectious diseases?

I mean, you can't say "Have HIV? Well, while if I did I would wear a condom, but tend to your own garden, don't wear one if you don't want to"

I'm not 1000% sure I understand what you're saying, but if I do, I don't think that's how I mean "tend your own garden".  It doesn't mean "do whatever you want".   It means everyone take care of their own space first.  THEN we can start to worry about the deplorables.   Wear your PPE (personal protective equipment, for those not in the know); distance; remove yourself from situations of risk/danger.   I know that sounds a little naive to some, but no more naive than thinking we can just bully or shame people into submission because "morals".   In any event, it's a starting point, not an ultimate goal.

Mike posted a thing on Twitter - something to the effect of "it's not about you; how can anyone be so selfish!" - and while I love the guy, I want to ask him what rock he's been living under for the past 25 years.   

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4096 on: June 29, 2020, 11:47:30 AM »
Studly, while I mostly agree, doesn't "tend to your own garden" maybe not apply to infectious diseases?

I mean, you can't say "Have HIV? Well, while if I did I would wear a condom, but tend to your own garden, don't wear one if you don't want to"

I'm not 1000% sure I understand what you're saying, but if I do, I don't think that's how I mean "tend your own garden".  It doesn't mean "do whatever you want".   It means everyone take care of their own space first.  THEN we can start to worry about the deplorables.   Wear your PPE (personal protective equipment, for those not in the know); distance; remove yourself from situations of risk/danger.   I know that sounds a little naive to some, but no more naive than thinking we can just bully or shame people into submission because "morals".   In any event, it's a starting point, not an ultimate goal.

Mike posted a thing on Twitter - something to the effect of "it's not about you; how can anyone be so selfish!" - and while I love the guy, I want to ask him what rock he's been living under for the past 25 years.


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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4097 on: June 29, 2020, 01:04:55 PM »
Studly, while I mostly agree, doesn't "tend to your own garden" maybe not apply to infectious diseases?

I mean, you can't say "Have HIV? Well, while if I did I would wear a condom, but tend to your own garden, don't wear one if you don't want to"

I'm not 1000% sure I understand what you're saying, but if I do, I don't think that's how I mean "tend your own garden".  It doesn't mean "do whatever you want".   It means everyone take care of their own space first.  THEN we can start to worry about the deplorables.   Wear your PPE (personal protective equipment, for those not in the know); distance; remove yourself from situations of risk/danger.   I know that sounds a little naive to some, but no more naive than thinking we can just bully or shame people into submission because "morals".   In any event, it's a starting point, not an ultimate goal.

Mike posted a thing on Twitter - something to the effect of "it's not about you; how can anyone be so selfish!" - and while I love the guy, I want to ask him what rock he's been living under for the past 25 years.

I agree, our first responsibility is to ourselves and our immediate  families.  These are the fundamental units of society.  If we have bandwidth after that (IT term), then we can see what we can do for society as a whole.  But that comes last, not first.  Mike is wrong in my view as well.

And this method works to everyone's benefit, if the individual and family are all wrecked, then society as a whole is wrecked and it can't be fixed, unless the individual and family are fixed first.

I will never put society before myself and my family.
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Offline Grappler

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4098 on: June 29, 2020, 01:26:05 PM »

I agree, our first responsibility is to ourselves and our immediate  families.  These are the fundamental units of society.  If we have bandwidth after that (IT term), then we can see what we can do for society as a whole.  But that comes last, not first.  Mike is wrong in my view as well.

And this method works to everyone's benefit, if the individual and family are all wrecked, then society as a whole is wrecked and it can't be fixed, unless the individual and family are fixed first.

I will never put society before myself and my family.


Wearing a mask in public isn't putting society before your family.  It's a small inconvenience for the greater good, and also offers some protection for yourself and therefore, your family.  I'd hate to bring this illness into my home and watch my loved ones battle it.  I'm not afraid of it, but it's not something I want my family to go through either.

Offline YtseJam

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4099 on: June 29, 2020, 02:21:36 PM »
The only thing a mask is going to do is hide a lot of ugly faces, which isn't really a bad thing I guess but in terms of it protecting people, bullshit.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4100 on: June 29, 2020, 02:34:44 PM »
The only thing a mask is going to do is hide a lot of ugly faces, which isn't really a bad thing I guess but in terms of it protecting people, bullshit.

Correct.  The fact that doctors having done so for many decades, and doctors pretty unanimously saying otherwise (including every doctor I know personally) is obviously just a big lie.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4101 on: June 29, 2020, 02:38:44 PM »
The only thing a mask is going to do is hide a lot of ugly faces, which isn't really a bad thing I guess but in terms of it protecting people, bullshit.

Correct.  The fact that doctors having done so for many decades, and doctors pretty unanimously saying otherwise (including every doctor I know personally) is obviously just a big lie.

Yeah I guess doctors just wear masks in operating rooms 'cause they like playing dress up.

Saying masks protecting people is bullshit is one of the dumbest things I've heard adults say during this pandemic.
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Offline Evermind

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4102 on: June 29, 2020, 02:47:31 PM »
The only thing a mask is going to do is hide a lot of ugly faces, which isn't really a bad thing I guess but in terms of it protecting people, bullshit.

Correct.  The fact that doctors having done so for many decades, and doctors pretty unanimously saying otherwise (including every doctor I know personally) is obviously just a big lie.

Yeah I guess doctors just wear masks in operating rooms 'cause they like playing dress up.

They're just kinky like that.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4103 on: June 29, 2020, 02:48:02 PM »
Saying masks protecting people is bullshit is one of the dumbest things I've heard adults say during this pandemic.

Then you obviously haven't been paying attention to the antivaxxers/flat-earthers/conspiracy-theorists saying that it goes beyond being not helpful, and is itself an active health risk and part of Bill Gates' conspiracy to make us inject death vaccines.  Trust me, my friend--it gets a LOT dumber.
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4104 on: June 29, 2020, 02:49:27 PM »
Buddy, that's just common sense. I can feel the 5G generating corona in me right now.

Offline Indiscipline

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4105 on: June 29, 2020, 02:57:43 PM »
Mask saves people and I have proof:



A little levity helps as well  ;D

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4106 on: June 29, 2020, 05:48:56 PM »
Buddy, that's just common sense. I can feel the 5G generating corona in me right now.

Hopefully the wind turbine cancer will kill us first.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4107 on: June 29, 2020, 10:19:13 PM »
I thought Bill's plan was to put micro-GPS's in all of us so he can track us.
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4108 on: June 30, 2020, 08:39:57 AM »

I agree, our first responsibility is to ourselves and our immediate  families.  These are the fundamental units of society.  If we have bandwidth after that (IT term), then we can see what we can do for society as a whole.  But that comes last, not first.  Mike is wrong in my view as well.

And this method works to everyone's benefit, if the individual and family are all wrecked, then society as a whole is wrecked and it can't be fixed, unless the individual and family are fixed first.

I will never put society before myself and my family.


Wearing a mask in public isn't putting society before your family.  It's a small inconvenience for the greater good, and also offers some protection for yourself and therefore, your family.  I'd hate to bring this illness into my home and watch my loved ones battle it.  I'm not afraid of it, but it's not something I want my family to go through either.

I never said it was.  What I mean is the purpose why I wear masks in public, use hand sanitizer, wash my hands and all the rest.  I don't do it for society, I do it for myself and my family.  I just reject the idea that if I do it differently then what someone else's idea is of how I should do it, that that somehow makes me selfish.

Not wearing masks and washing hands does not make someone selfish, it just makes them unwise.
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Online Adami

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4109 on: June 30, 2020, 08:43:51 AM »

I agree, our first responsibility is to ourselves and our immediate  families.  These are the fundamental units of society.  If we have bandwidth after that (IT term), then we can see what we can do for society as a whole.  But that comes last, not first.  Mike is wrong in my view as well.

And this method works to everyone's benefit, if the individual and family are all wrecked, then society as a whole is wrecked and it can't be fixed, unless the individual and family are fixed first.

I will never put society before myself and my family.


Wearing a mask in public isn't putting society before your family.  It's a small inconvenience for the greater good, and also offers some protection for yourself and therefore, your family.  I'd hate to bring this illness into my home and watch my loved ones battle it.  I'm not afraid of it, but it's not something I want my family to go through either.

I never said it was.  What I mean is the purpose why I wear masks in public, use hand sanitizer, wash my hands and all the rest.  I don't do it for society, I do it for myself and my family.  I just reject the idea that if I do it differently then what someone else's idea is of how I should do it, that that somehow makes me selfish.

Not wearing masks and washing hands does not make someone selfish, it just makes them unwise.

It definitely makes some people unwise.

But if "I don't feel like doing XYZ and I don't care about anyone else who is affected by this" isn't selfish, then I don't know how you would define selfish.

Again, not to say that's what all or even most people are doing, but there's definitely a good amount of that mentality. I'd very much call that selfish.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4110 on: June 30, 2020, 08:46:37 AM »
Also, I was under the impression that the wearing of a mask Is primarily to stop the wearer from spreading more that to protect the wearer from others.  So not wearing a mask is being selfish to a large degree.
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4111 on: June 30, 2020, 08:51:23 AM »
The only thing a mask is going to do is hide a lot of ugly faces, which isn't really a bad thing I guess but in terms of it protecting people, bullshit.

Yeah, I read an interesting opinion on another forum where a medical professional strongly pushed back on the notion that masks protect others from the wearer.  Rather he said that maks protect the wearer from others and he gave examples of why medical professionals have long worn gloves and masks long before all this started and the reasons behind it.  I wish I knew where I read it so I could link it here.

But I agree with that view even though I'm not an expert on this at all.  But I wear a mask in public places to protect myself and my family does it for the same reason.  But on the other hand there is some evidence that suggests that masks don't help nearly as much as a lot of folks think they do.

But yeah, 5g, vaccines, wind turbines are definately all good reasons why we should not wear masks and we will all get cancer and tracked everywhere we go until we die.  Except maybe the tracking devices that we carry around with us every day, that sounds a little far fetched to me :D.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 08:59:17 AM by Northern Lion »
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4112 on: June 30, 2020, 09:06:29 AM »
I know plenty of people that have a tendency to spit on occasion when they speak or let out a laugh. If corona can exist in and be spread by your saliva, I fail to see how wearing a mask does anything but help stop the projection of that saliva.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 10:42:49 AM by Chino »

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4113 on: June 30, 2020, 09:23:30 AM »
Exactly.  The mask absolutely helps stop the spread of germs from the wearer to others.  Whether it's more to protect the wearer, or others, is apparently still being disputed, but I can't see how anyone with a brain doesn't see how wearing a mask helps stop the spread.

Therefore, yes, someone choosing to not wear a mask is being selfish, because they are putting their convenience over the health of others.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4114 on: June 30, 2020, 09:26:22 AM »
Brushing your teeth doesn't help prevent cavities because I brushed my teeth every day as a kid and the dentist still found cavities. Fake hygiene news
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4115 on: June 30, 2020, 09:29:42 AM »
Brushing your teeth doesn't help prevent cavities because I brushed my teeth every day as a kid and the dentist still found cavities. Fake hygiene news

lol you brushed your teeth?

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4116 on: June 30, 2020, 09:38:57 AM »
Brushing your teeth doesn't help prevent cavities because I brushed my teeth every day as a kid and the dentist still found cavities. Fake hygiene news

lol you brushed your teeth?

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4117 on: June 30, 2020, 10:20:17 AM »
The "selfish" argument is fascinating to me, though.   Since when has America NOT been selfish?   Obviously, there are degrees of consequences to that, but we can sit here from now until the next Tool album comes out listing ways in which American citizens have systematically displayed their selfishness for all to see, with varying degrees of impact to others.  We have entire threads (some serious, some not) on degrees of selfishness.

Maybe it's just me, but I just think MOST people are selfish in some form or fashion, and so it is what it is.  On the odd occasion I do go out, I try to be aware and steer clear of the hondo who feels like going bareback. 

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4118 on: June 30, 2020, 10:28:51 AM »
Humans are inherently selfish.  Self preservation is genetic.  But as a society, like in WWII, we come together for a common good.  Ford makes airplanes, housewives become riveters, and men get killed in Europe.  We expect that certain outside threats to our society result in some type of group beneficial behavior.  Wearing a mask, during a pandemic that can help other Americans stay safer, seems to be just barely above doing nothing.....so I feel we should expect this from our citizens even though we are inherently selfish.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 11:20:41 AM by eric42434224 »
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4119 on: June 30, 2020, 12:16:57 PM »
Wearing a mask, during a pandemic that can help other Americans stay safer, seems to be just barely above doing nothing.....so I feel we should expect this from our citizens even though we are inherently selfish.
My beef, or concern, or whatever with this line of thinking is that wearing masks will always prevent the spread of disease and save lives. So should we expect it all the time, pandemic or no? Why is it selfish now when 120k-ish people in the US have died in the last 5 months or so, but not when 60k-ish die of the flu in the US in a similar time period in previous years? Where is the line between when it's selfish and when it's not? I had a similar conversation with a coworker this morning and she basically thought that we should all wear masks in public all the time permanently, which to me seems utterly ridiculous. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear masks now. It's certainly a fine thing to do for those around us. I just struggle with it being called selfish not to wear one now, but not at other times, when, again, it can always save lives. I think the vast majority of things we do are selfish, so "stop being selfish and wear a mask" is not a very convincing argument to me.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 12:28:08 PM by lordxizor »

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4120 on: June 30, 2020, 12:22:33 PM »
Wait....before I address your response.....60k died from the flu in the same 6 month time period?
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4121 on: June 30, 2020, 12:23:02 PM »
Wait....before I address your response.....60k died from the flu in the same 6 month time period?
Not this year, but in other flu seasons they have.

Actually just looked up the CDC estimated flu death in the 2019-2020 flu season and it's 24,000-62,000 dead in the US. I doubt they'll ever really know due to the overlap in symptoms to Covid and lack of testing until recently.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 12:30:11 PM by lordxizor »

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4122 on: June 30, 2020, 12:31:03 PM »
I mean, that means we've had twice as many deaths already from corona and that's with some pretty extreme measures being taken. Not to mention you can get vaccinated for the flu, which is I would assume is a far more effective way to ensure you don't spread it to other people. If there were a vaccine for corona and people chose to get that and then didn't wear masks, I don't think anyone would be calling them selfish. But that option doesn't exist now.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4123 on: June 30, 2020, 12:38:07 PM »
I mean, that means we've had twice as many deaths already from corona and that's with some pretty extreme measures being taken. Not to mention you can get vaccinated for the flu, which is I would assume is a far more effective way to ensure you don't spread it to other people. If there were a vaccine for corona and people chose to get that and then didn't wear masks, I don't think anyone would be calling them selfish. But that option doesn't exist now.
Do we call people selfish who don't get the flu vaccine and don't wear a mask? Not that I've ever heard. Certainly not to the self righteous extent that it's happening now.

This is probably a dumb line of argument to go down. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't wear masks or do what we can to prevent the spread of Covid. I just hate the arbitrariness of suddenly calling people selfish, and other derogatory names, because 60k deaths is OK, but 120k isn't.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4124 on: June 30, 2020, 12:39:11 PM »
Wearing a mask, during a pandemic that can help other Americans stay safer, seems to be just barely above doing nothing.....so I feel we should expect this from our citizens even though we are inherently selfish.
My beef, or concern, or whatever with this line of thinking is that wearing masks will always prevent the spread of disease and save lives. So should we expect it all the time, pandemic or no? Why is it selfish now when 120k-ish people in the US have died in the last 5 months or so, but not when 60k-ish die of the flu in the US in a similar time period? Where is the line between when it's selfish and when it's not? I had a similar conversation with a coworker this morning and she basically thought that we should all wear masks in public all the time permanently, which it me seems utterly ridiculous. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear masks now. It's certainly a fine thing to do for those around us. I just struggle with it being called selfish not to wear one now, but not at other times, when, again, it can always save lives. I think the vast majority of things we do are selfish, so "stop being selfish and wear a mask" is not a very convincing argument to me.

You raise some good points.  And ultimately, it comes down to a risk/benefit analysis, which admittedly does make wherever we draw the line somewhat arbitrary and subjective.  And I get why that, in turn, makes it unpalatable for some people when others label the failure to comply as "selfish."  I get it.

But here's the thing:  The risk/benefit analysis is much different with the pandemic than with other diseases.  This is, in fact, undisputedly, a pandemic.  That isn't so of the common flu.  And while the fatality rate has been only double the rate of a bad flu year, even if we say x2 of some of the worst flu years is acceptable, there are still some key differences.  First, it is pretty much undisputed that the fatality numbers are what they are only because of the extreme measures taken to reduce the spread.  Second, the infection rate is a lot higher than common flu.  Third, severe respiratory and/or organ complications are much more common than with the common flu.  These facts are all virtually undisputed in the medical community.

Granted, even with no protective measures taken, the odds of getting this are still very small.  But they are a few magnitudes higher than the common flu, and even putting aside mortality rates, the chances of severe health complications are a few magnitudes higher.  And by taking very simple measures (wearing a mask and/or social distancing in public, not touching one's face, and frequent, thorough handwashing), it is proven to reduce the infection rate by several magnitudes. 

To oversimplify all of the above:  We know that although the chances of getting it are fairly small, the potential consequences of getting it are much worse than most other common diseases, the infection rate is much higher, and simple things can drastically reduce the changes of spreading it.  I could have it and not know it yet.  If I get together with my friend, and I do NOT take these simple precautions, I increase his odds several times over of getting something that could pose a serious health risk, than if I did not take those precautions.  Several times over.  As much as I try not to judge and label others' intentions, it is hard for me to not see that as unacceptably "selfish" given what we know.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4125 on: June 30, 2020, 12:45:45 PM »
Wearing a mask, during a pandemic that can help other Americans stay safer, seems to be just barely above doing nothing.....so I feel we should expect this from our citizens even though we are inherently selfish.
My beef, or concern, or whatever with this line of thinking is that wearing masks will always prevent the spread of disease and save lives. So should we expect it all the time, pandemic or no? Why is it selfish now when 120k-ish people in the US have died in the last 5 months or so, but not when 60k-ish die of the flu in the US in a similar time period? Where is the line between when it's selfish and when it's not? I had a similar conversation with a coworker this morning and she basically thought that we should all wear masks in public all the time permanently, which it me seems utterly ridiculous. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear masks now. It's certainly a fine thing to do for those around us. I just struggle with it being called selfish not to wear one now, but not at other times, when, again, it can always save lives. I think the vast majority of things we do are selfish, so "stop being selfish and wear a mask" is not a very convincing argument to me.

You raise some good points.  And ultimately, it comes down to a risk/benefit analysis, which admittedly does make wherever we draw the line somewhat arbitrary and subjective.  And I get why that, in turn, makes it unpalatable for some people when others label the failure to comply as "selfish."  I get it.

But here's the thing:  The risk/benefit analysis is much different with the pandemic than with other diseases.  This is, in fact, undisputedly, a pandemic.  That isn't so of the common flu.  And while the fatality rate has been only double the rate of a bad flu year, even if we say x2 of some of the worst flu years is acceptable, there are still some key differences.  First, it is pretty much undisputed that the fatality numbers are what they are only because of the extreme measures taken to reduce the spread.  Second, the infection rate is a lot higher than common flu.  Third, severe respiratory and/or organ complications are much more common than with the common flu.  These facts are all virtually undisputed in the medical community.


Good post. I just want to expand on the bold a smidge because I believe it's part of that key difference (my bad if this is what you were saying). There will be a lot more life-long effects that stem from this as well when compared to other annual viruses. You just don't have respiratory or organ problems while infected and in the hospital. Permanent damage seems to be common. There are people that got this are never going to breathe correctly again, even years after all other symptoms have gone away. The permanently poor lung function will lead to further organ issues and damage down the road.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 12:55:14 PM by Chino »

Offline bosk1

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4126 on: June 30, 2020, 12:46:20 PM »
I just hate the arbitrariness of suddenly calling people selfish, and other derogatory names, because 60k deaths is OK, but 120k isn't.

Not to be redundant, but this crystalizes the issue for me, and is a good discussion point for what I just said.  I don't think it is arbitrary because 60k vs. 120k.  Because it isn't just 60k vs. 120k.  It is:
-120k that would have been __________ [whatever the unknown number is that we cannot know, but DO know that it would be a lot higher] if not for EXTREME measures having been taken; AND
-This is 120k IN ADDITION TO the already 60k from the flu; AND
-MUCH more severe health complications for a lot who are not even part of that 120k; AND
-The severe worldwide economic crisis we are in; AND
-The severe healthcare crisis in our hospitals and clinics.

Bottom line is that, unlike the typical flu season, we are in worldwide crisis mode, and failure to do these simple, easy things is, at best, prolonging the healthcare and economic crisis or, at worst, contributing to it.  That is a key difference, in my opinion.


EDIT:  Yeah, Chino.  That is exactly what I was trying to say.   :tup
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4127 on: June 30, 2020, 12:57:51 PM »
This is, in fact, undisputedly, a pandemic.  That isn't so of the common flu. 
Tangential point, but why isn't the flu considered a pandemic? It's a global spread of an infectious disease that kills hundreds of thousands every year with hundreds of millions of people contracting the disease. Do we just not consider it a pandemic because it's a relatively known disease and expected?

Second, the infection rate is a lot higher than common flu. 
I'm not convinced this is really true. Covid is far behind a typical flu year. Even with a vaccine, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% of the US (25-50 million people) gets the flu in a typical flu season. That is an order of magnitude higher than Covid in a similar time period (2.5 million). Yes, we had the shutdowns and stuff, but do you really think Covid cases are 10-20 times lower than they could have been? I thought I saw the CDC estimated that the stay-at-home orders cut cases in half at one point. Also, there are certainly many more than 2.5 million known cases since testing has been limited and there are so many asymptomatic cases. So there's really no way to know for sure. The point being that it doesn't seem like Covid spreads tons faster or easier than the flu does. They both spread quite easily it seems.

I'm not trying to say that Covid isn't worse than the flu or trying to downplay the seriousness of it. Serious complication are certainly more prevalent. I just like to point out the arbitrariness of it all. I think a large part of it is that the flu is a relatively understood disease, so 60k deaths and 50 million cases in a 6 month period is just normal so we don't think twice even though that's a hell of a lot of people. The coronavirus is new, and not "part of the plan", so we all freak out.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 01:04:55 PM by lordxizor »

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4128 on: June 30, 2020, 12:59:49 PM »
Wearing a mask, during a pandemic that can help other Americans stay safer, seems to be just barely above doing nothing.....so I feel we should expect this from our citizens even though we are inherently selfish.
My beef, or concern, or whatever with this line of thinking is that wearing masks will always prevent the spread of disease and save lives. So should we expect it all the time, pandemic or no? Why is it selfish now when 120k-ish people in the US have died in the last 5 months or so, but not when 60k-ish die of the flu in the US in a similar time period? Where is the line between when it's selfish and when it's not? I had a similar conversation with a coworker this morning and she basically thought that we should all wear masks in public all the time permanently, which it me seems utterly ridiculous. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear masks now. It's certainly a fine thing to do for those around us. I just struggle with it being called selfish not to wear one now, but not at other times, when, again, it can always save lives. I think the vast majority of things we do are selfish, so "stop being selfish and wear a mask" is not a very convincing argument to me.

You raise some good points.  And ultimately, it comes down to a risk/benefit analysis, which admittedly does make wherever we draw the line somewhat arbitrary and subjective.  And I get why that, in turn, makes it unpalatable for some people when others label the failure to comply as "selfish."  I get it.

But here's the thing:  The risk/benefit analysis is much different with the pandemic than with other diseases.  This is, in fact, undisputedly, a pandemic.  That isn't so of the common flu.  And while the fatality rate has been only double the rate of a bad flu year, even if we say x2 of some of the worst flu years is acceptable, there are still some key differences.  First, it is pretty much undisputed that the fatality numbers are what they are only because of the extreme measures taken to reduce the spread.  Second, the infection rate is a lot higher than common flu.  Third, severe respiratory and/or organ complications are much more common than with the common flu.  These facts are all virtually undisputed in the medical community.


Good post. I just want to expand on the bold a smidge because I believe it's part of that key difference (my bad if this is what you were saying). There will be a lot more life-long effects that stem from this as well when compared to other annual viruses. You just don't have respiratory or organ problems while infected and in the hospital. Permanent damage seems to be common. There are people that got this are never going to breathe correctly again, even years after all other symptoms have gone away. The permanently poor lung function will lead to further organ issues and damage down the road.

This is what scares me personally.  I am health enough that my chances of dying are really low....but that doesn't mean I wont be damaged long term.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4129 on: June 30, 2020, 01:04:02 PM »
I just hate the arbitrariness of suddenly calling people selfish, and other derogatory names, because 60k deaths is OK, but 120k isn't.

Not to be redundant, but this crystalizes the issue for me, and is a good discussion point for what I just said.  I don't think it is arbitrary because 60k vs. 120k.  Because it isn't just 60k vs. 120k.  It is:
-120k that would have been __________ [whatever the unknown number is that we cannot know, but DO know that it would be a lot higher] if not for EXTREME measures having been taken; AND
-This is 120k IN ADDITION TO the already 60k from the flu; AND
-MUCH more severe health complications for a lot who are not even part of that 120k; AND
-The severe worldwide economic crisis we are in; AND
-The severe healthcare crisis in our hospitals and clinics.

Bottom line is that, unlike the typical flu season, we are in worldwide crisis mode, and failure to do these simple, easy things is, at best, prolonging the healthcare and economic crisis or, at worst, contributing to it.  That is a key difference, in my opinion.


EDIT:  Yeah, Chino.  That is exactly what I was trying to say.   :tup


And the average flu death number is more like 36k for the whole year.....Coronavirus is at 120k at six months (and as you said......with all the preventative measures taken).

I think once a vaccine is out, the reactions to masks will be more flu-like.

I also have a VERY bad feeling about coronavirus moving forward....its going to get worse again, especially in several specific states.
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rumborak

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