Author Topic: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise  (Read 7470 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15236
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2020, 11:31:45 AM »
I feel like "beyond what you do with what they've already given you" constitutes enough money to support multiple people for several life times.

And you're not wrong.   I just always have a habit of trying to look at things from the other person's (In this case, Joey's) situation instead of my personal POV. 
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 4174
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2020, 11:31:52 AM »
Don't care about Aerosmith and can only casually care about this story, as I know very little about the band, and obviously nothing about their legal and corporate structures. But legal crap like this is just... c'mon man, this isn't life or death we are talking about here.

Quote
He wants the court to order him back in the band to avoid “irreparable harm” to him if Aerosmith is allowed to squeeze him out.

That doesn't mean "life or death".  It simply means the action will cause harm that can't be repaired.  Being essentially kicked out of a band, especially a band that big that you have spent your whole adult life in?  I would say that qualifies, and is not being over-dramatic.  What the real story / truth is, I am not sure.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13557
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2020, 11:36:44 AM »
JD, right it might feel that way to that individual but I think crossing that legal hurdle is a massive leap. By extension would everyone who ever gets fired/laid off face "irreparable harm?" Should no one be allowed to fire/lay off anyone ever?

I am not looking at this from the moral/ethical standpoint, as I don't know or care to get in to the nuts and bolts of this situation, but the legal one.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15236
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2020, 11:42:16 AM »
JD, right it might feel that way to that individual but I think crossing that legal hurdle is a massive leap. By extension would everyone who ever gets fired/laid off face "irreparable harm?" Should no one be allowed to fire/lay off anyone ever?

I am not looking at this from the moral/ethical standpoint, as I don't know or care to get in to the nuts and bolts of this situation, but the legal one.

But you should know as well as anyone that these are most often legal terms (I'm sure Stads will back me up on this).   It's like when you plead "not guilty" in a court of law.    It's strictly a legal term.   The public sees the term "not guilty" in the news and they get all freaked out because they think the person is saying that they didn't do it when it seems obvious that he did.    But the legal term "not guilty" is not the same as saying "I didn't do it."     Same thing with these terms.  They are legal negotiation tactics.   At this point, he has probably figured that he's out for good, and he's going to need some kind of a settlement moving forward in order to maintain SOME income from "the company".    Probably a lump sum buy out of his share.    But that process still involves these legal terms.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36087
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2020, 11:43:13 AM »
But wasn't he suing to be able to play with them as opposed to for money?
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15236
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2020, 11:45:30 AM »
But wasn't he suing to be able to play with them as opposed to for money?

It says that, but he has to play in order to still have a viable legal claim to his share.  If he's not making a bid to claim, the other side could claim some sort of abandonment.   So this could still be a tactic.   
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36087
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2020, 11:46:42 AM »
But wasn't he suing to be able to play with them as opposed to for money?

It says that, but he has to play in order to still have a viable legal claim to his share.  If he's not making a bid to claim, the other side could claim some sort of abandonment.   So this could still be a tactic.

Does he? From what I read (I admit not super carefully) it seemed he was trying to play a specific show, as opposed to back in the band for good.


Also, if you're almost 70 years old, and have spent the last almost 50 years in one of the most successful rock bands in history and you can't possibly survive without continued income from playing, as opposed to the royalties he still gets and income from other businesses (his food stuff), then you need a LOT more help than playing a few more tours with Aerosmith.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 11:58:21 AM by Adami »
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15236
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2020, 12:09:39 PM »
Rock stars are not usually known for making the best life decisions.    Quite often, people make stupid decisions that have an impact on their future.   Even after they wise up, it might be too late to undo past mistakes.   If put in that situation, AND faced with the opportunity to either just roll over and take it, or be presented with a very reasonable and legal opportunity to at least not have the rug ripped out from under you, most people would take the latter opportunity. 
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36087
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2020, 12:14:14 PM »
Rock stars are not usually known for making the best life decisions.    Quite often, people make stupid decisions that have an impact on their future.   Even after they wise up, it might be too late to undo past mistakes.   If put in that situation, AND faced with the opportunity to either just roll over and take it, or be presented with a very reasonable and legal opportunity to at least not have the rug ripped out from under you, most people would take the latter opportunity.

Don't get me wrong, I think (unless he really doesn't know how to perform anymore) that Aerosmith are being huge dicks doing what they're doing. That said, he has no RIGHT to be employed by them. Bands can kick out members. It sucks, but it happens.

Dude has tons of opportunity. He can retire. He can teach lessons for 2000 dollars an hour if he so chooses and never run out of clients. He can do lots of stuff. He's not out of an income.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15236
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2020, 12:34:01 PM »
Rock stars are not usually known for making the best life decisions.    Quite often, people make stupid decisions that have an impact on their future.   Even after they wise up, it might be too late to undo past mistakes.   If put in that situation, AND faced with the opportunity to either just roll over and take it, or be presented with a very reasonable and legal opportunity to at least not have the rug ripped out from under you, most people would take the latter opportunity.

Don't get me wrong, I think (unless he really doesn't know how to perform anymore) that Aerosmith are being huge dicks doing what they're doing. That said, he has no RIGHT to be employed by them. Bands can kick out members. It sucks, but it happens.

Dude has tons of opportunity. He can retire. He can teach lessons for 2000 dollars an hour if he so chooses and never run out of clients. He can do lots of stuff. He's not out of an income.

This isn't a local warehouse hourly wage job.   If there is a *contract* stating as much, the bolded statement may not be true.  There is a big difference between being an employee and being a part owner with a contract.   In fact, "big" doesn't even cover it.   "Massive" is more accurate.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36087
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2020, 12:37:29 PM »
And we have no idea what his role with the band is. We just know he's not allowed to perform with them. That's what he's fighting for, that's what he lost.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15236
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2020, 01:59:38 PM »
So Steven and Joey were the ONLY ones who spoke at an award presentation while the whole band was on stage. 

OH to be a fly on the wall for how that came to be. 

https://kzok.iheart.com/featured/tyson/content/2020-01-25-video-joey-kramer-and-steven-tyler-speak-at-musiccares/?Sc=editorial&Keyid=socialflow&Pname=local_social&fbclid=IwAR3Kbxv0GsUFwwPp89HEnJXB5LT2vIhRx92TPXWpsBKj2F9MfM9INNe0z2o

It felt like Steven was taking an under the table jab...but as is always the case with these things, you can't prove that.  (And Stads, while I often take the side of law, it's things like this that sometimes piss me off about "the law".   Because people who want to do evil things have often learned how to operate in the area of the unprovable....but that's another conversation for another thread.   Not that what Steven did was "evil" (in fact it may have been the opposite), but it just reminded me of that general idea.)   
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Online Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 42998
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2020, 07:35:37 PM »
First, no surprise, I disagree with Adami, in the sense that "enough money" for anyone is not for me to decide. Or you (or you! or you! or you! as Dio might say).  If he wants to fight for more money, more power to him, it's America, and it's his right without judgment from us. (Having said that, I think I noted above that he likely does NOT have the resources that Perry and Tyler do, for various reasons). 

Having said that, being part of the corporation MAY imbue other benefits besides money.  For example, he might not be able to say "Aerosmith's Joey Kramer!" if he's not in the band or active in the corporation.  He does have other businesses - coffee strikes me at the moment, there might be more - that he might need some of the advantages of the Aerosmith machine to further. 

ALL of this is specific to the operating agreement of the corporation, and it is futile to speculate without knowledge of that arrangement. 

Offline Herrick

  • Posts: 1966
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello Mangs
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2020, 07:54:58 PM »
Wow they made him pay the replacement drummer's salary?
DISPLAY thy Breasts, My Julia!

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15236
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2020, 08:07:43 PM »
Wow they made him pay the replacement drummer's salary?

Well....they can word it that way.  But it's more likely that his replacement was paid by Aerosmith (the company) out of Joey's paycheck.  Which is the same thing but sounds different than Joey physically having to fork over the money.    Joey isn't playing, so the money he would have made to play went (at least in part) to someone who filled the position.   
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Herrick

  • Posts: 1966
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello Mangs
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2020, 08:26:23 PM »
Wow they made him pay the replacement drummer's salary?

Well....they can word it that way.  But it's more likely that his replacement was paid by Aerosmith (the company) out of Joey's paycheck.  Which is the same thing but sounds different than Joey physically having to fork over the money.    Joey isn't playing, so the money he would have made to play went (at least in part) to someone who filled the position.

That would make more sense. I thought he was paying out of his own pocket on top of not making anything off Aerosmith concerts.
DISPLAY thy Breasts, My Julia!

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36087
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2020, 08:31:30 PM »
First, no surprise, I disagree with Adami, in the sense that "enough money" for anyone is not for me to decide. Or you (or you! or you! or you! as Dio might say).  If he wants to fight for more money, more power to him, it's America, and it's his right without judgment from us. (Having said that, I think I noted above that he likely does NOT have the resources that Perry and Tyler do, for various reasons). 

I never said enough money. I was arguing against it being life and death.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Online King Postwhore

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 59288
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2020, 08:33:45 PM »
And we have no idea what his role with the band is. We just know he's not allowed to perform with them. That's what he's fighting for, that's what he lost.

Isn't this point Adami what Stadler missed?
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Online Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 42998
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2020, 07:43:33 AM »
First, no surprise, I disagree with Adami, in the sense that "enough money" for anyone is not for me to decide. Or you (or you! or you! or you! as Dio might say).  If he wants to fight for more money, more power to him, it's America, and it's his right without judgment from us. (Having said that, I think I noted above that he likely does NOT have the resources that Perry and Tyler do, for various reasons). 

I never said enough money. I was arguing against it being life and death.

Then I apologize (sincerely).  I read it as a variation on "he's got enough money, what's the big deal?"

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 74070
  • Gender: Male
  • Arthritic Metal Horns
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2020, 07:49:15 AM »
It's funny comparing Aerosmith operating as a corporation, compared with what we've seen from Rush. I know we've all done our Rush Deep Dives over the last couple of weeks, and it's a true testament to partners all working together.

I love me some classic Aerosmith, but I would never pay and go see them ever again, as this is all about the buck. The band has basically become a store front to take your money.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Online Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 42998
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2020, 08:52:29 AM »
Whenever I see "John Kalodner = John Kalodner" on an album I kind of assume that's the direction the band is headed.  That's been the case since Done With Mirrors, but really came to the fore with "Get A Grip".

This is a somewhat famous quote by him (it's on Wikipedia, but I've read it in other places as well):  "Kalodner considered that the best example of his contribution to an artist's success was his role in Aerosmith's 1993 Get a Grip album, for the reasons that "...first of all, I made them rerecord the whole record completely. Second of all, I made them write with all these different people. They were very resistant. The record is an interesting eclectic record with, like, five hit singles, very rare in music, and Bruce Fairbairn produced it. And I got Brendan O'Brien to mix it, who became a giant producer. So for all those reasons, and, of course, it sold like 20 million copies worldwide.""

I've seen them since - because it was a show both my ex-wife and I would both go to - but they haven't been a top tier band since PUMP, their last truly great album.

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 74070
  • Gender: Male
  • Arthritic Metal Horns
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2020, 08:56:29 AM »
Speaking of Done With Mirrors, I absolutely love that album, and I rank Permanent Vacation easily their weakest 80's album.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Online Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 42998
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2020, 09:10:12 AM »
Speaking of Done With Mirrors, I absolutely love that album, and I rank Permanent Vacation easily their weakest 80's album.

I just listened to DWM in the car the other day. Very good album.  I think I like PV more than you do, but it's certainly not their best.  I like it more than GAG, though, which is an appropriate acronym. 

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 74070
  • Gender: Male
  • Arthritic Metal Horns
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2020, 09:23:24 AM »
Hah.

My 80's Aerosmith listing:

Done With Mirrors
Rock In A Hard Place
Pump
Permanent Vacation
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Online King Postwhore

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 59288
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2020, 11:21:21 AM »
Pump would be my #1 of the 80's.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline cfmoran13

  • Posts: 1224
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2020, 12:38:50 PM »
One theory as to why they were concerned about him playing with them is perhaps they were performing a medley of songs, which would require a lot of intricate cuts from one song to the next.  Without adequate practice, there would be no way to quickly get him on the same page with the rest of the band.

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 13320
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2020, 01:03:09 PM »
One theory as to why they were concerned about him playing with them is perhaps they were performing a medley of songs, which would require a lot of intricate cuts from one song to the next.  Without adequate practice, there would be no way to quickly get him on the same page with the rest of the band.

Sounds like an issue that could be solved by having proper rehearsals all together, like a band is supposed to do.
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15236
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2020, 01:15:24 PM »
One theory as to why they were concerned about him playing with them is perhaps they were performing a medley of songs, which would require a lot of intricate cuts from one song to the next.  Without adequate practice, there would be no way to quickly get him on the same page with the rest of the band.

Sounds like an issue that could be solved by having proper rehearsals all together, like a band is supposed to do.

The rehearsals that he was allegedly not showing up for (allegedly for health reasons)....thus them wanting to exclude him...thus the lawsuit.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 13320
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2020, 01:20:25 PM »
One theory as to why they were concerned about him playing with them is perhaps they were performing a medley of songs, which would require a lot of intricate cuts from one song to the next.  Without adequate practice, there would be no way to quickly get him on the same page with the rest of the band.

Sounds like an issue that could be solved by having proper rehearsals all together, like a band is supposed to do.

The rehearsals that he was allegedly not showing up for (allegedly for health reasons)....thus them wanting to exclude him...thus the lawsuit.

D'uh. Missed this detail then.
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Online Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15690
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2020, 07:43:38 PM »
Yeah. Watching their Grammy performance. I don't get their reasoning. Joe Perry sounds like a bad Guitar hero performance.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Offline Volante99

  • Posts: 1044
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2020, 08:43:28 PM »
Joey Kramer wasn’t good enough to play with THAT?!?

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34203
  • Gender: Male
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2020, 06:07:41 AM »
 :lol that was pretty poor sounding until Run DMC actually made it sound much better surprisingly


Online Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 42998
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2020, 07:41:13 AM »
Hah.

My 80's Aerosmith listing:

Done With Mirrors
Rock In A Hard Place
Pump
Permanent Vacation

GAG is 90's, sorry. It was all a blur.  ;)

Hmm, that's not a bad list.   I might do:

Pump
DWM
RIAHP
PV

But it's not like there's a huge gap between any two.  I do know this: I liked the ballads a lot better when they were 70's ballads, tucked at the end of side two to break up the fury.  Once they started writing ballad trilogies and what not, they lost me.  I'm pretty sure "Living On The Edge" was the last single I really felt connected to.  Maybe "Deuces Are Wild".  I like "Pink", but just because it's funny, not because it's a great tune or anything.  "Pink, it's like red but not quite."   :)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 09:17:30 AM by Stadler »

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36087
Re: Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2020, 08:39:36 AM »
Joey Kramer wasn’t good enough to play with THAT?!?

Yea, that was a pretty meh performance. Drummer, obviously playing to a click, lacked any real groove.

I'll be honest, IF Joey wasn't up to the level of that performance (Big if) then he's done.
fanticide.bandcamp.com