Aerosmith - Trouble In Paradise

[Stadler]

Anyone see this:
https://www.tmz.com/2020/01/22/aerosmith-drummer-joey-kramer-denied-judge-grammy-performance-lawsuit/

Here's the backstory:
https://eddietrunk.com/drummer-joey-kramer-files-a-lawsuit-against-aerosmith-for-failure-to-re-join-the-band/
(There are two more articles on Trunk's site as well).

[Anguyen92]

I've seen this discussion in the Classic Rock Thread.  You think for being in a band for about 50 years, everyone would all put egos aside and try to gauge together where they stand as performers without needing to get lawsuits and lawyers and securities involved.

[Stadler]

Hey sorry; didn't mean to usurp the conversation.  We can take it over there.

[TAC]

We should keep it here. I was going to post about this the other day when I realized there was no Aerosmith thread. This can become that.


My two initial thoughts were that the "ankle injury" is likely a cover, and everything in Aerosmith runs through Tyler.

I actually read Joe Perry's autobiography, which blows BTW, but one thing he did say was that Tyler calls the shots. He is their paycheck.

[KevShmev]

I read about this the other day.

If Kramer can't play well anymore, I get trying to replace him.  The intro to Walk This Way is pretty iconic, and you can't have a drummer messing that up.  However, there are ways to do it, and it seems like this is not it.

That said, Steven Tyler sounds like an a-hole by just about everything I've ever read or heard about him, so this shouldn't be a surprise.

[MirrorMask]

Imagine Lars having to audition again for Metallica 

Man, that sucks. It's like the Bill Ward situation, where the (supposed) unrealiability of the drummer puts the band in an awkward spot. Weren't there any better ways to handle this than letting the guy fly to LA and then having security bounce him? I can't ever imagine Iron Maiden doing this to Nicko McBrain...

Will this be the new standard for old groups? holograms and replacing one by one the members who are unfit as long as the icon of the band is still there?

[Cruithne]

Kramer claims the band asked him to perform a series of solo rehearsals against a “click track” — not even live with the other four members — as his audition … and they would listen to the recordings to decide whether he was viable for return.

The drummer claims the stress of the ordeal had “significant repercussions” to his health

There'll be three sides to this story but man is that a whine. If they weren't concerned about his ability to cut it then they wouldn't have asked him to do that... that he found the idea of doing so so stressful it had repercussions to his health implies they were absolutely right to be concerned.

[The Curious Orange]

Why would you sue to re-join a band that clearly doesn't want you anymore? I may not know much, but at least I know when I'm not wanted.

[Kwyjibo]

Why would you sue to re-join a band that clearly doesn't want you anymore? I may not know much, but at least I know when I'm not wanted.

If you are not in the band, you don't get a share of the profits. That's why, probably.

Imagine Lars having to audition again for Metallica 

Imagine Lars playing to a click track 

[Mladen]

I was hoping Trouble in paradise is a new single or an upcoming album. Oh well...

[Max Kuehnau]

Why would you sue to re-join a band that clearly doesn't want you anymore? I may not know much, but at least I know when I'm not wanted.

If you are not in the band, you don't get a share of the profits. That's why, probably.

Imagine Lars having to audition again for Metallica 

Imagine Lars playing to a click track 

even if he were forced to, he still wouldn't practice and nothing would be changed. Having said that, there is an irony attached to all of this (concerning Aerosmith): I would guess almost all of their albums (at least up until the late 1980s) were recorded without a click. I don't know that for a fact though since I didn't listen to any Aerosmith albums in more than 20 years (22 probably)

[Max Kuehnau]

I was hoping Trouble in paradise is a new single or an upcoming album. Oh well...

would be a fitting title though IMHO (although there is a Randy Newman album of the same name, which I like quite a bit btw)

[ChuckSteak]

Considering the guy has dedicated 50 years of his life to the band, it is a ridiculous, childish attitude. Even if he has problems playing... you don't do that to somebody who spent 50 years by your side.

[Max Kuehnau]

Considering the guy has dedicated 50 years of his life to the band, it is a ridiculous, childish attitude. Even if he has problems playing... you don't do that to somebody who spent 50 years by your side.

I'd do the same though (considering that they seemingly want musical consistency over interpersonal relationships, but then the next irony that reveals itself is that they chose to do that now,as opposed to in the 1980s and sticking with that approach. (playing to a click is mandatory these days it seems and has been for quite a bit, at least in my observation) "A Feast Of Ironies" would have made for a cool thread title too, seeing as that's what it is IMHO) Although you're right, it's not particularly "gentlemanly" as it were

[Stadler]

A lot of thoughts here. 

One, Bill Ward's unreliability is not "supposed".  He ended up forcing the band to cancel at least one tour, possibly two, and several shows in between.   He couldn't cut it.  I saw the "The End" tour, and while Tommy Clufetos wasn't my first choice, the show would have suffered if the drummer couldn't carry that every night at that level.  It was NECESSARY for that show. 

Two, I just saw Maiden not four months ago, and Nicko was amazing, but let's not kid anyone here:  Nicko is 67, and Maiden isn't a "Charlie Watts" kind of gig.   There's a shelf-life on Maiden.  I don't know what it is, but there's a shelf life on Maiden.  Some of the best drummers in rock have shown or are starting to show their age, and there's no crime in that (Collins, Peart, Alan White, Ian Paice has missed shows recently, Peter Criss, Bill Ward, Bill Bruford). 

Three, there's always been a history with Kramer.  He's had his own drug problems, and he's battled other issues as well.  Tyler - originally the band's drummer - has frequently battled with Kramer (as you might guess, there's been a disagreement since 1975 as to who came up with the signature intro pattern to "Walk This Way", a song Kramer does not have a writing credit on).   I do not believe this is the first time he's been told "clean up your act".   Is it fair?  Of course not.   But I'm not sure who decided it was supposed to BE fair.   

Four, the money thing... I don't know.  I have read that the replacement - Kramer's drum tech, John Douglas - is being paid out of the money that would have gone to Kramer had he performed.  I'm surprised at that, frankly, though I would guess that that is just a cash flow mechanism, a way of distributing funds.  Aerosmith is almost assuredly a "corporation", and unless Kramer doesn't have a share in that corporation - entirely possible, though not the most likely option - I can't imagine this is about money on it's face. 

They also have a residency going on here in Springfield, MA at the MGM Casino.  My brother-in-law went to see them in... I think it was August, certainly it was this fall, and I'll ask him if Kramer was behind the drums.  I know he did say they sounded really good. 

[cramx3]

Since we have a thread now, I'll quote what I stated about it form there and expand a bit more

When I saw Aerosmith in September during the Vegas residency, before the show I was chatting with a security guard.  My ticket was for on the stage general admission (which was an AMAZING experience, one of my favorite concerts ever I think) so I wanted to ask this guy about what to expect and where maybe the best position to stand in case the band members come over (which they did throughout the night).  This guy then just started going on about Aerosmith and other things but he did tell me that it was always up in the air if Joey would show up for the show every night.  They had a guy on standby to fill in at all times because Joey was unreliable (he didn't give reasons why).  Also said the band members all hate each other, none of them get along and they all came in/out of the venue seperately and stayed at different hotels so they never interacted besides being on stage for 90 minutes.

He then also told me that strippers would be arriving in 5 minutes... which he was spot on about so I kind of believe him.

I think, he just may not be reliable and if he can't consistently show up and perform, then he can't be in the band.  It sucks it has to be a lawsuit and not "gentleman" like as someone said.  But you can't be both in the band and not perform.  I'm sure there's way more to it than just that such as money and personal relationships soured, but if there's any truth to what the security guard in Vegas told me (which is very believable) then I feel it's likely necessary for him to be out of the band sadly.  It would be cool if they didn't make him audition per say but gave him a path to recovery and being let back in, but he also could be just so far off from what they minimally want from a drummer at this point.

and if this is the official DTF aerosmith thread then I shall add my concert experience time stamped for Love in an Elevator, one of the funnest times I had for a single song all year last year Aerosmith - Las Vegas Residency 9/23/2019

[Grappler]

Joey's had lots of health issues in the past as well.  Sucks that they're freezing him out, but it seems like the band gave him a way back in (audition) and he's chosen to throw a fit, rather than buck up and just do it.

I saw Aerosmith twice, on the 9 Lives and Just Push Play tours in 99 and the early 00's, when they played the arena in my college town.  Both shows were killer, and I recall one featuring more of the 80's hits and the second featuring more of the 70's era songs.

I also have a lot of respect for Steven Tyler since he was a judge on American Idol during the year that James Durbin was on.  James was singing metal songs each week...had Simon Cowell been a judge that year, he'd have easily called James indulgent and criticized him for not singing contemporary music.  Steven Tyler was the opposite, encouraging him to be a rock singer, sing the songs he wants to, and even commending him and backing James up when he told the record company exec to piss off for telling him to not sing Sammy Hagar one week.   

[Stadler]

I have no direct knowledge of this, but it's possible that this has something to do with the casino aspect of things.  I understand that the immediate gigs are the Grammy's and the Musicares gigs, but the casino residencies are not like "normal concerts", in that they are part of a bigger endeavor.   In other words, it's not like a regular tour stop where they set up, play, take a portion of the gate and all the merch, and the promoter takes his cut.   Casino shows are about the ancillary. Get people in the door to gamble, eat, drink, shop, etc.  If Kramer doesn't show, or the band doesn't perform up to standards, there's a different level of damages than just "refund the tickets, and we'll add a second date to the next leg of the tour".  Go on Wikipedia and look at the "tour dates" for just about any major act, and there'll be a date here - Poughkeepsie - or a date there - des Moines - that are cancelled. Sucks if you're in mid-state New York, or Iowa, but the machine rolls on.   Here, the casino could lose a portion of their entire nights revenue.   

I don't know if that's a factor or not, but it could be.

[cramx3]

I don't know if it is or not either but they had to cancel shows after I saw them because Tyler got sick.  If the casino thing plays a role, I'm sure they were already not happy about having to cancel shows from legit illness meanwhile having a questionable drummer every night on top of that.  I'm sure lots of little things like that DO add up at some point.

[El Barto]

My assumption when I read about this was simply that they get along better with the drum tech than they do Kramer. Seems to me like one of those situations where the band chemistry is just better when one strong personality leaves.

Also, the idea that he might not be able to perform at a strong enough level is fucking ridiculous. Seen Joe Perry play lately? From what I've heard Lars and Kirk would be embarrassed to play that sloppily. By all accounts he's a fucking train wreck.

[Stadler]

My assumption when I read about this was simply that they get along better with the drum tech than they do Kramer. Seems to me like one of those situations where the band chemistry is just better when one strong personality leaves.

Also, the idea that he might not be able to perform at a strong enough level is fucking ridiculous. Seen Joe Perry play lately? From what I've heard Lars and Kirk would be embarrassed to play that sloppily. By all accounts he's a fucking train wreck.

That's interesting about Perry; I hadn't heard that (I haven't heard ANYTHING, other than the Hollywood Vampires is sort of a joke).  I've always sort of felt that Brad has been carrying the water for a while.

[cramx3]

The difference is Perry shows up.  I feel this is similar to Darcy not coming back to the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy knows she's not reliable to go on tour and could be a no show any night.  It SUCKS, but if the person for whatever reasons (it seems to point to drugs/health) can't be relied upon, there aren't many options. 

[El Barto]

The difference is Perry shows up.  I feel this is similar to Darcy not coming back to the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy knows she's not reliable to go on tour and could be a no show any night.  It SUCKS, but if the person for whatever reasons (it seems to point to drugs/health) can't be relied upon, there aren't many options.

Then why the audition? That won't demonstrate his reliability unless he's so far gone he doesn't even show up for that. Moreover, if his health falters they already have a prefect replacement in the crew anyway.

[cramx3]

The difference is Perry shows up.  I feel this is similar to Darcy not coming back to the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy knows she's not reliable to go on tour and could be a no show any night.  It SUCKS, but if the person for whatever reasons (it seems to point to drugs/health) can't be relied upon, there aren't many options.

Then why the audition? That won't demonstrate his reliability unless he's so far gone he doesn't even show up for that. Moreover, if his health falters they already have a prefect replacement in the crew anyway.

Yea, he didn't show up as far as I can tell.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I'm just gonna speak my mind of something I of course know not much about other than what I read.

I can only relate as a fellow musician and drummer, being apart of a band for 50 years dedicating your ENTIRE life to your instrument and everything they shared together over the years it's a fucking disgrace it's turning out like this and it's corporate bs what's going on with auditions and security and so on. It's rock n roll for god's sake and it's Aerosmith not an audition to the Royal Philharmonics. I don't believe for a second that Joey can't play the songs in acceptable form given his injuries and so on. I mean come on, he knows those songs backwards after all these years. From Joey's perspective, should he really just accept that and move on. It's his life work too as much as Tyler's and honestly what else can he do than to sue. He's ONE easily replaceable person against the company Aerosmith and the millions of fans that's probably siding with the band no matter what. Yes it's all business these days but man I really think the band should've supported him more and if he actually needed help getting in shape, help him for fuck sake!

I mean I cannot help thinking about Lars for some reason.  Even Metallicas music is more challenging than Aerosmith.

[Stadler]

Eh, I wouldn't go overboard on the "Aerosmith is simple" line; sure it might be easy to play the notes (I can even play Walk This Way and there's a cassette tape somewhere to prove it) but Aerosmith is about groove and feeling and motion. I can imagine that if one component is off their game the whole house of cards comes crashing down.

Also, I respectfully disagree that "it's as much his as Tyler's".  That there are five members in a band doesn't make them interchangeable.  There's Aerosmith as long as there is Steven Tyler, period.  No one else (they've survived without Tom, Brad, and Joe for varying lengths of time; they WILL survive without Joey Kramer). 

[El Barto]

The difference is Perry shows up.  I feel this is similar to Darcy not coming back to the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy knows she's not reliable to go on tour and could be a no show any night.  It SUCKS, but if the person for whatever reasons (it seems to point to drugs/health) can't be relied upon, there aren't many options.

Then why the audition? That won't demonstrate his reliability unless he's so far gone he doesn't even show up for that. Moreover, if his health falters they already have a prefect replacement in the crew anyway.

Yea, he didn't show up as far as I can tell.

I don't think that changes my point at all. He didn't show up because he considered it bullshit, insofar as I can tell. Not because he was face down in the gutter alongside Joe Perry. I just think the audition thing was a sham.

I read that apparently he showed up to the rehearsal space to get ready for their upcoming award thingy and they had security guards in place to deny him entry. This is more about bad blood than anything else. Somebody in the band just doesn't want him around anymore.

[Adami]

I thought I read that he did the audition but they said no after?

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Eh, I wouldn't go overboard on the "Aerosmith is simple" line; sure it might be easy to play the notes (I can even play Walk This Way and there's a cassette tape somewhere to prove it) but Aerosmith is about groove and feeling and motion. I can imagine that if one component is off their game the whole house of cards comes crashing down.

Just to be clear I never said their music was simple, however I find it ridiculous to have an audition especially with a member that's been in the band for so long because it's a catalugue he knows well enough.

Also, I respectfully disagree that "it's as much his as Tyler's".  That there are five members in a band doesn't make them interchangeable.  There's Aerosmith as long as there is Steven Tyler, period.  No one else (they've survived without Tom, Brad, and Joe for varying lengths of time; they WILL survive without Joey Kramer). 

I speak about Joey as a human being and a member of the band, that his legacy is the drumparts he created and for dedicating his life towards the band and their music and that to me deserve as much respect as Tyler. Sadly the REALITY is as you say, Tyler calls the shot because he's the more famous guy in the band but that dosen't change my opinion. Where's the loyalty as a band towards Joey?

"To be removed from my rightful place on stage to celebrate our success — a success that acknowledges my own life’s work, is just plain wrong," /Joey Kramer

[dparrott]

I was hoping Trouble in paradise is a new single or an upcoming album. Oh well...

Haha yea that was my first thought too.

[Phoenix87x]

Kramer attends benefit gala, but doesn't perform with them

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/joey-kramer-joins-aerosmith-bandmates-at-musicares-benefit-gala-but-doesnt-perform-with-them-video-photos/

[ChuckSteak]

That's a tremendous insult at him, regardless if he can play well or not.

[Cool Chris]

Don't care about Aerosmith and can only casually care about this story, as I know very little about the band, and obviously nothing about their legal and corporate structures. But legal crap like this is just... c'mon man, this isn't life or death we are talking about here.

He wants the court to order him back in the band to avoid “irreparable harm” to him if Aerosmith is allowed to squeeze him out.

[jammindude]

Don't care about Aerosmith and can only casually care about this story, as I know very little about the band, and obviously nothing about their legal and corporate structures. But legal crap like this is just... c'mon man, this isn't life or death we are talking about here.

He wants the court to order him back in the band to avoid “irreparable harm” to him if Aerosmith is allowed to squeeze him out.

Well....if you've only had one job your entire life, and that job doesn't offer a retirement plan (beyond what you do with what they've already given you) and then they try to take away that job (i.e. your steady income) it can start to feel like "life and death" to that person pretty quickly. 

[Adami]

I feel like "beyond what you do with what they've already given you" constitutes enough money to support multiple people for several life times.