2022 MLB Thread formerly the 2021 thread..

[hunnus2000]

I was so negative about this team waiting for them to choke again as in the past.  I can't believe they actually did it!   

So glad Kershaw got a ring.  He's probably done now.  We got our new ace Buehler.  Urias was a unexpected stud.  Mookie did his job to get us the chip!  So many players did their parts too.

And for once the OTHER manager screwed up!    And I can't believe our pen did so well.

Now the only major sport playing is NFL.  Feels weird.

The Rangers will take him. Time to bring him home.....
 
BTW - there's also college and I would learn to like Soccer, Rugby and LaCrosse......and dare I say, figure skating?

[hunnus2000]

Just kidding about figure skating!!!!!!   

[pg1067]

I was so negative about this team waiting for them to choke again as in the past.  I can't believe they actually did it!   

So glad Kershaw got a ring.  He's probably done now.  We got our new ace Buehler.  Urias was a unexpected stud.  Mookie did his job to get us the chip!  So many players did their parts too.

And for once the OTHER manager screwed up!    And I can't believe our pen did so well.

Now the only major sport playing is NFL.  Feels weird.

I think the thing I was most surprised about yesterday was Alex Wood's performance.  If I remember correctly, he wasn't even on the NLDS roster, but he was untouchable last night (as he was in his prior appearance in this year's WS.  Totally unexpected.

Kershaw is under contract one more year.  I don't see him retiring, but I don't think he'll be back with the Dodgers after 2021.

Normally, the NHL would have started a few weeks ago and the NBA would be just about to start.  It does feel weird.

The Rangers will take him. Time to bring him home.....

I'm sure the Rangers would take him, but I have a feeling he's going to retire as a Dodger.

[dparrott]

Yea I watch some CFB and I've started to watch women's college soccer.  It's not as aggressive as men's, kinda fun to watch.

[TAC]

Jon Lester kicks so much ass.

https://nesn.com/2020/10/jon-lester-picking-up-beer-tab-for-cubs-fans-in-chicago/

[pg1067]

Jon Lester kicks so much ass.

https://nesn.com/2020/10/jon-lester-picking-up-beer-tab-for-cubs-fans-in-chicago/

I'm trying to figure out a joke that relates this to his well-known fear of making pick-off throw to first.

But yeah...that's pretty awesome.

[pg1067]

I was thinking about whom would be on a Dodgers' "Mount Rushmore."

Three seem ridiculously obvious and undisputable:  Jackie Robinson, Tommy Lasorda (although Walter Alston was more successful and longer-tenured), and Vin Scully.

The #4 spot isn't quite as obvious, but I think Sandy Koufax gets the nod.


Who's on your team's "Mount Rushmore"?

[Cool Chris]

'My team" largely due to geography, but for the Mariners this should be easy, considering to their relatively short, and mostly crappy, history.

Ken Griffey Jr
Randy Johnson
Ichiro Suzuki
Dave Neihaus

Shit, how could I forget Edgar?! Let me rethink this.... He might have to replace Randy. But if Johnson doesn't win that game against the Angels in 95, there is no Ichiro in Seattle beacuaee there is no Mariners team in Seattle.

[T-ski]

Brewers....

Robin Yount
Ryan Braun
Paul Molitor
Cecil Cooper

Honorable mention: Prince Fielder, Teddy Higuera

[lordxizor]

Twins:

Kirby Puckett
Rod Carew
Harmon Killebrew
Joe Mauer

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Giants:

Willie Mays
Barry Bonds
Buster Posey
Christy Mathewson

[romdrums]

Indians:

Bob Feller
Lou Boudreau
Jim Thome
Tris Speaker

[pg1067]

'My team" largely due to geography, but for the Mariners this should be easy, considering to their relatively short, and mostly crappy, history.

Ken Griffey Jr
Randy Johnson
Ichiro Suzuki
Dave Neihaus

Before I google it, I'm gonna write WHO?

EDIT:  Now I see.

Brewers....

Robin Yount
Ryan Braun
Paul Molitor
Cecil Cooper

Honorable mention: Prince Fielder, Teddy Higuera

Gorman Thomas?  Pete Vukovich?  I kid mostly, but I watched a highlight reel from the 1982 season, and those mustaches were EPIC!

Twins:

Kirby Puckett
Rod Carew
Harmon Killebrew
Joe Mauer

Where's Zoilo Versailles?!   

Giants:

Willie Mays
Barry Bonds
Buster Posey
Christy Mathewson

Posey over Mel Ott??

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Giants:

Willie Mays
Barry Bonds
Buster Posey
Christy Mathewson

Posey over Mel Ott??

I kind of went back and forth on including Ott. I ultimately picked Mathewson over Ott. Posey on the other hand has helped lead the Giants to 3 World Series wins. Ott only had one in his time. Posey is also an MVP and RotY winner. Granted, Rookie of the Year wasn't a thing when Ott started playing, but I doubt he would have won the award when he was eligible anyway. Plus being a catcher and doing what Posey has done at that position adds a little more weight to my decision.

[TAC]

Nothing wrong with the Posey pick.

I'd consider Jason Varitek on my Sox list as well.

[Cool Chris]

'My team" largely due to geography, but for the Mariners this should be easy, considering to their relatively short, and mostly crappy, history.

Ken Griffey Jr
Randy Johnson
Ichiro Suzuki
Dave Neihaus

Before I google it, I'm gonna write WHO?

EDIT:  Now I see.

Ask any Mariners fan and they'll tell you he means as much to this franchise as anyone. He is beloved in the sports community here, nearly unlike any other sports figure in any field. And I formally replace Johnson with Edgar in my list.

[pg1067]

'My team" largely due to geography, but for the Mariners this should be easy, considering to their relatively short, and mostly crappy, history.

Ken Griffey Jr
Randy Johnson
Ichiro Suzuki
Dave Neihaus

Before I google it, I'm gonna write WHO?

EDIT:  Now I see.

Ask any Mariners fan and they'll tell you he means as much to this franchise as anyone. He is beloved in the sports community here, nearly unlike any other sports figure in any field. And I formally replace Johnson with Edgar in my list.

I didn't recognize the name, but I knew who he was.  Turns out he was an Angels broadcaster before the Mariners existed, so I might have heard him when I was very young.  MLB Network played game 5 of the 1995 Division Series over the weekend as part of a 25 greatest games series.  It's a great series, and they have 1-2 participants from each team, along with Bob Costas and Tim Kurkjian (I think) hosting/moderating.  I don't actually remember that game very well -- probably because I was depressed at how badly the Dodgers were sucking (they made the playoffs in '95 for the first time since the '88 WS win and promptly got swept by the Reds).

Giants:

Willie Mays
Barry Bonds
Buster Posey
Christy Mathewson

Posey over Mel Ott??

I kind of went back and forth on including Ott. I ultimately picked Mathewson over Ott. Posey on the other hand has helped lead the Giants to 3 World Series wins. Ott only had one in his time. Posey is also an MVP and RotY winner. Granted, Rookie of the Year wasn't a thing when Ott started playing, but I doubt he would have won the award when he was eligible anyway. Plus being a catcher and doing what Posey has done at that position adds a little more weight to my decision.

Hard to argue too much with that.  The Giants are one of those teams that have enough worthy candidates for a double Rushmore.

[pg1067]

2021 HOF BALLOT

Who goes in?  The number in parentheses is the number of years the player has been on the ballot.

Curt Schilling (9)
Roger Clemens (9)
Barry Bonds (9)
Sammy Sosa (9)
Jeff Kent (8)
Gary Sheffield (7)
Billy Wagner (6)
Manny Ramirez (5)
Omar Vizquel (4)
Scott Rolen (4)
Andruw Jones (4)
Todd Helton (3)
Andy Pettitte (3)
Bobby Abreu (2)
Tim Hudson (1)
Marke Buehrle (1)
Torii Hunter (1)
Dan Haren (1)
Barry Zito (1)
Aramis Ramirez (1)
Shane Victorino (1)
AJ Burnett (1)
Nick Swisher (1)
LaTroy Hawkins (1)
Michael Cuddyer (1)

I expect that none of the first year guys will remain on the ballot after this year.

I would vote for Clemens, Bonds, Sheffield, Helton, Manny, Kent and Sosa.  I was very on the fence about Wagner and somewhat less so about Rolen and Schilling.

[TAC]

The only ones I'd positively put in are Clemens, Schilling, and Bonds.

I can go either way on Manny, Sheff, and Visquel.

[pg1067]

The only ones I'd positively put in are Clemens, Schilling, and Bonds.

I can go either way on Manny, Sheff, and Visquel.

I liked Vizquel, but he was no better than an average hitter in an era with some exceptional hitting shortstops.  Being the best defensively of the group for a decade wasn't enough for me to include him.  Schilling has the 3,100+ strikeouts and the postseason resume but nothing else.

[TAC]

Schilling has the 3,100+ strikeouts and the postseason resume but nothing else.

What else do you need? That's not enough??


I have no issue with some of the 'roid guys getting in, because Bonds and Clemens were HOFers without them, but Helton, Sosa, Bagwell...definitely were not.

[romdrums]

Schilling has the 3,100+ strikeouts and the postseason resume but nothing else.

What else do you need? That's not enough??


I have no issue with some of the 'roid guys getting in, because Bonds and Clemens were HOFers without them, but Helton, Sosa, Bagwell...definitely were not.

Helton also had the benefit of Coors Canaveral for a few years before they brought in the humidor.  Nice enough guy though.  I met him while bartending out in Colorado.  Very low key, loved to talk baseball.

[pg1067]

Schilling has the 3,100+ strikeouts and the postseason resume but nothing else.

What else do you need? That's not enough??


I have no issue with some of the 'roid guys getting in, because Bonds and Clemens were HOFers without them, but Helton, Sosa, Bagwell...definitely were not.

Regarding Schilling, he just wasn't an HOF regular season pitcher.  Only 216 wins in 17+ full MLB seasons?  Career ERA of 3.46?  Those are "meh" numbers.  He compares to guys like Kevin Brown and Bob Welch.  If you tell me that being a well-above average regular season pitcher, mixed with 2+ epic postseasons is enough (NLCS MVP in 1993 and 2001 plus 2004 with the Sox), I'm not going to protest.  However, if I have to work too hard to convince myself a guy should get in, then I wouldn't put him in (same thing with guys like Scott Rolen).

Regarding Helton, why are you lumping him in as a "'roid guy"?  He was not part of that group.

[TAC]

He wasn't??

[pg1067]

He wasn't??

What's your point?  That everyone who put on some muscle mass after gaining access to MLB-level nutrition and training and who grew facial hair was on steroids?

Peruse some of these search results:  https://www.google.com/search?q=todd+helton+steroids&rlz=1C1GCEJ_enUS915US915&oq=todd+helton+steroids&aqs=chrome..69i57.3306j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I think you'll find that the only performance enhancing drug he's ever been accused of using (beyond one provably false statement by someone who had no personal knowledge) is the PED known as Coors Field.

[TAC]

I don’t know man. I’m skeptical.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Yeah, I would bet dollars to donuts that Todd Helton never used steroids.

As far as the HoF ballot, I'd vote for Bonds, Clemens, Helton, Ramirez, and Sheffield.

Kent, Rolen, Abreu, Wagner, Sosa, and Schilling are all borderline at best. Not to say they weren't good players, but just not what I would consider legendary status. A player that could strike fear into the hearts of their opponents whenever they stepped on the field.

Vizquel is a conundrum. He was a legend on defense, but his offense was weak by comparison. And almost no one gets into the HoF on defense alone.

[pg1067]

Vizquel is a conundrum. He was a legend on defense, but his offense was weak by comparison. And almost no one gets into the HoF on defense alone.

That's kinda how I feel.  HOWEVER, baseball-reference.com has something called "similarity scores," which it lifted from a book by Bill James.  It is explained here:  https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/similarity.shtml

Based on this methodology, the eight most similar players to Vizquel are Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Ozzie Smith, Bill Dahlen, Dave Concepcion, Luke Appling, Pee Wee Reese and Nellie Fox.  Of those, only Dahlen (who played between 1891-1911 and hit .272 in an era when the best players were hitting in the high .300s) and Concepcion (who probably suffers for being the weak offensive link on the Big Red Machine) are not in the HOF.  Aparicio was a career .262 hitter, with a career OPS of .653, 83 HR, 791 RBI, 394 doubles and 1,335 runs.  He played in the 1959 and 1966 World Series (10 games and 45 AB).  His postseason numbers were very similar to his regular season numbers.  Without fine-tooth comb analysis, Vizquel's numbers (over a longer career) are very similar.  Different eras and all, but between Aparicio and Ozzie, Vizquel at least has precedent to make a case.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Vizquel is a conundrum. He was a legend on defense, but his offense was weak by comparison. And almost no one gets into the HoF on defense alone.

That's kinda how I feel.  HOWEVER, baseball-reference.com has something called "similarity scores," which it lifted from a book by Bill James.  It is explained here:  https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/similarity.shtml

Based on this methodology, the eight most similar players to Vizquel are Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Ozzie Smith, Bill Dahlen, Dave Concepcion, Luke Appling, Pee Wee Reese and Nellie Fox.  Of those, only Dahlen (who played between 1891-1911 and hit .272 in an era when the best players were hitting in the high .300s) and Concepcion (who probably suffers for being the weak offensive link on the Big Red Machine) are not in the HOF.  Aparicio was a career .262 hitter, with a career OPS of .653, 83 HR, 791 RBI, 394 doubles and 1,335 runs.  He played in the 1959 and 1966 World Series (10 games and 45 AB).  His postseason numbers were very similar to his regular season numbers.  Without fine-tooth comb analysis, Vizquel's numbers (over a longer career) are very similar.  Different eras and all, but between Aparicio and Ozzie, Vizquel at least has precedent to make a case.

Yeah, and now you get into the territory of certain players that I don't think should have ever been inducting into the HoF. So I'm certainly going by my own criteria when putting in my opinion.

I am familiar with Bill James and his books though. It is an interesting way to look at it. I am very much a numbers/stats guy when it comes to baseball and overall performance/effectiveness.

[TAC]

Yeah, I would bet dollars to donuts that Todd Helton never used steroids.

I feel like we've had this conversation before. If Helton never did PED's I'd be shocked honestly. But I won't belabor the point.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Yeah, I would bet dollars to donuts that Todd Helton never used steroids.

I feel like we've had this conversation before. If Helton never did PED's I'd be shocked honestly. But I won't belabor the point.

We probably have 

[pg1067]

Yeah, and now you get into the territory of certain players that I don't think should have ever been inducting into the HoF. So I'm certainly going by my own criteria when putting in my opinion.

For sure.  The concept of precedent loses all validity when you consider that Phil Rizzuto was inducted:  .273/.351/.355/.706, 1,588 hits, 38 HR, 563 RBI (and his postseason numbers over 52 games are actually worse!).  Not a single one of the top 10 "similar" players (all of whom have a score over 900) are in the HOF.  The ONLY reason why he's in is because he had the fortuity of being on the Yankees.

[axeman90210]

Despite being a Yankees fan, my initial reaction to seeing Pettitte on the list was "Loved him as a Yankee, good player for a long time, and while he'd make a fine addition to the Hall of Very Good, he's definitely not a Hall of Famer". Decided to poke around some though and there are some decent arguments for him

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30372428/why-everybody-vote-andy-pettitte-hall-fame
https://www.cooperstowncred.com/andy-pettitte-complicated-hall-of-fame-case/

His vote share the first two years was pretty poor though, so very unlikely he gets close.

[pg1067]

Despite being a Yankees fan, my initial reaction to seeing Pettitte on the list was "Loved him as a Yankee, good player for a long time, and while he'd make a fine addition to the Hall of Very Good, he's definitely not a Hall of Famer". Decided to poke around some though and there are some decent arguments for him

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30372428/why-everybody-vote-andy-pettitte-hall-fame
https://www.cooperstowncred.com/andy-pettitte-complicated-hall-of-fame-case/

His vote share the first two years was pretty poor though, so very unlikely he gets close.

When lawyers are taught how to write, they are generally taught to lead with their strongest argument.  The ESPN article started with several paragraphs about how few pitchers born in the 1970s are in the HOF.  Seriously?  Not that I expect a sports writer to write like a lawyer, but by the time the article moved onto a more legitimate argument, I had lost interest.  Also, my general rule of thumb is that, if one has to make a "complicated case" for someone to get in, then he doesn't belong in.

For me, Pettitte is an easy no.  He spent 18 seasons -- mostly with the team that was, during his career, the best in baseball -- and could only muster 256 wins and fewer than 2,500 strikeouts (and yes, I know that he wasn't a "strikeout pitcher").  In my view, he benefitted immensely from being on the Yankees -- much more so than the Yankees benefitted from having him on the team.

He's a shoe-in, however, for the Hall of Really Good.

[TAC]

Yeah, I'm generally a no on Pettite.