First five by Haken or Queensryche?

[Max Kuehnau]

Haken 100%. I honestly don't quite get the hype around Queensryche.

Same.

me either (same with Haken actually), but I like some of QR's songwriting (and I guess they influenced DT too in some ways).

[bosk1]

Queensryche and it ain't even close.

This.  Completely this.  I find it hard to imagine a poll that could produce such an easy result for me. 

I can completely give respect to Haken and the following they have built.  But I have never heard a Haken song that I liked even a little bit.  I was even given an advance copy of their last album and asked to review it, and finally elected to pass on the review because I just couldn't find anything positive to say about it, and didn't really want to put a review out there that would have been negative.

Queensryche, on the other hand, were my absolute favorite band through the culmination of this run of albums, and each album was better than the last.  There aren't many 5-album runs by any band that I could consider being worthy of being in the same conversation, let alone any band's first five albums.

With all due respect to Haken fans, Queensryche easily wins this without even a second thought.

[Stadler]

I have to kind of laugh at some of the hyperbole here.  Haken's first five in a conversation about the greatest first five in history (not every post has limited it to prog-metal) seems to me to be hard to defend, no matter how much you like the band itself, unless of course that is the only metric we're looking at.

QR's start is very, very good, no question.

But I think there is a legit conversation about at least 10 other bands:
- Led Zeppelin 
- Black Sabbath
- Aerosmith (I suppose the first is a problem, but it does have "Dream On", their signature song)
- Marillion
- ELP (either counting "Pictures..." or "Works I")
- Iron Maiden (I suppose the first is a problem, but they do play a fair amount from that album to this day)
- U2
- AC/DC (depends of course, if you use "international releases" or "US only releases")
- Cheap Trick
- Van Halen
- The Cars (I suppose Panarama is a problem, but the two before and the two after are THAT good)
- Def Leppard (I suppose depending on your take, the first half or the last half are a problem, but both have their place)
- Bon Jovi
- Metallica (I suppose depending on your take, the first or the fifth are a problem, but both have their place in history)

Just for the record, none of those is actually my FAVORITE starter run; that's likely Kiss or Dream Theater.  Only the latter belongs in this conversation; the former is just my taste. 

[The Walrus]

I gotta say, the first time I heard Rage For Order, I thought it was more impressive and 'progressive' than any Haken record I've heard, in fact more prog than a lot of 'prog' bands are. Haken has a bunch of technically gifted musicians, sure, but everything I've heard has left me cold (three albums, btw).  RFO was more memorable because it did some truly weird and creative stuff that pushed the boundaries of its respective style more than Haken has ever done, in my opinion. I dunno, that's just me. You combine that experimentation with their ability to write a catchy riff and super memorable vocal lines and you got yourself a winner, man.

[bosk1]

@Stadler:  There are maybe a couple on that list that I could put in the conversation with Queensryche.  But even then, it would only be along the lines of "If we are talking about the most quality run of bands' first five albums, let's talk about this couple of bands just to show that, as good as these runs were, they still can't even touch what Queensryche did." 

EDIT:  Yeah, what Katt said.

[Stadler]

@Stadler:  There are maybe a couple on that list that I could put in the conversation with Queensryche.  But even then, it would only be along the lines of "If we are talking about the most quality run of bands' first five albums, let's talk about this couple of bands just to show that, as good as these runs were, they still can't even touch what Queensryche did." 

EDIT:  Yeah, what Katt said.

That's fine; I won't argue that.  (But you DID say "Queensryche", not "Haken".  )

[bosk1]

Well, yeah.  Haken blows. 

[El Barto]

I find it impossible to choose, and there is no "view results" option. What's the score right now?

[bosk1]

It's about like the last 49ers/Saints game.  Currently 42/31 in favor of Queensryche.

[El Barto]

It's about like the last 49ers/Saints game.  Currently 42/31 in favor of Queensryche.

Yeah, seems about right given the arena. For my part I certainly prefer Haken to QR right now, but I felt just as strongly about QR back in the day. And insofar as the strength of the albums goes, I'm having a hard time picking one over the other. They're all good, save for one each, and even those have some good moments.

[Stadler]

43-31.

 

[Peter Mc]

I have only listened to the last couple of Haken albums but not massively impressed by either of them. I think the 3 album run from Rage For Order to Empire is possibly the strongest run by any band (my opinion obviously!). Promised Land and The Warning are a little bit of a step down but still got plenty going for them so this is not a close run thing for me, it’s Queensr˙che by a mile.  To be honest, I’m not sure any band has a better opening 5 albums, not even our own Dream Theater.

That being said, I’d also struggle to name a band who fell off a cliff like QR after those opening 5 albums!

[KevShmev]

I find it impossible to choose, and there is no "view results" option. What's the score right now?

FYI, I almost always set up polls to where you cannot view the results until you have voted, that way to avoid someone letting the current tally influence their vote, not that it really matters.

[jammindude]

I have to kind of laugh at some of the hyperbole here.  Haken's first five in a conversation about the greatest first five in history (not every post has limited it to prog-metal) seems to me to be hard to defend, no matter how much you like the band itself, unless of course that is the only metric we're looking at.

QR's start is very, very good, no question.

But I think there is a legit conversation about at least 10 other bands:
- Led Zeppelin 
- Black Sabbath
- Aerosmith (I suppose the first is a problem, but it does have "Dream On", their signature song)
- Marillion
- ELP (either counting "Pictures..." or "Works I")
- Iron Maiden (I suppose the first is a problem, but they do play a fair amount from that album to this day)
- U2
- AC/DC (depends of course, if you use "international releases" or "US only releases")
- Cheap Trick
- Van Halen
- The Cars (I suppose Panarama is a problem, but the two before and the two after are THAT good)
- Def Leppard (I suppose depending on your take, the first half or the last half are a problem, but both have their place)
- Bon Jovi
- Metallica (I suppose depending on your take, the first or the fifth are a problem, but both have their place in history)

Just for the record, none of those is actually my FAVORITE starter run; that's likely Kiss or Dream Theater.  Only the latter belongs in this conversation; the former is just my taste.

When I dance around this type of label, I'm usually quantified by the idea that progressive rock is my most loved and "go to" genre.  So if I'm going to pick a "greatest debut 5" it is most likely going to come from that genre. 

But even from your list, I would say Haken's opening 5 *destroys* the first 5 from ELP or Marillion.   (as I've said in other threads, IQ's opening 5 lay waste to Marillion's.) 

There are others in your list where I get what you're driving at, but not sure how many really lay claim to the "all killer no filler" that I would require for 5 full albums to be on the list.    LZ maybe.   

Even Haken kinda "bobbled the ball" a bit with Vector.   

[Stadler]

I guess if "all killer no filler" is your standard, then it changes things, but IMO it's hard to say there's filler on LZI, LZII, or ZOFO.  I'm not the hugest fan of The Crunge, but the rest of HOTH is legendary.

Again, though, if we're JUST talking "my faves", then it's all moot.  I try to inject at least a dash of objectivity into this.  When I was in college, every dorm room had at least one milk crate of vinyl.  It seemed like every crate had Boston's debut, Steve Miller's Greatest Hits, and either LZII or ZOFO.   So you've got legendary records in that run.  Same with Paranoid/Sabotage for Sabbath, MC/CAS with Marillion (and Season's End is arguably a top three Hogarth-era record; certainly the most "Fish-like" of the H records)...  At least with QR you have O:M and Empire, and those are transcendent (to the genre) records.

Do you honestly believe that if you go to an average state college, that a rando student has a Haken CD on their phone?   

[The Walrus]

Yeah but you guys only had like 3 channels and 10 bands to choose from back then. 

[Stadler]

Yeah but you guys only had like 3 channels and 10 bands to choose from back then. 

That's not far from the truth.  I've heard "Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison and "Midnight Rider" by the Allmans about 14,893 times because they would get played over and over on the local college bar's jukebox.  There just weren't that many good songs on there.

I had a roommate, we called him Metal Craig, and he was a huge Zeppelin fan.  He didn't have a ton of cash, and all he had was a gym bag of clothes, his toiletries, and a amp/receiver.  He would only listen to the radio, and his "thing" was he could almost always find a Zeppelin song somewhere on the dial.  We would bet him; I would sometimes tell him "Find a Zeppelin song in the next ten minutes, and beers are on me" and if he found it - which he usually would - we'd go to Huskies and drink $2.00 quart beers and play pool. 

[Lethean]

There is no objectivity for something like this.  I voted for Queensryche in this poll, but it's because I like their first five albums better, not because they were once more popular.

I'm not picking them, but I've got no issue with anyone else who chooses Haken's first five albums as "the best."  I'm certainly not going to laugh at anyone doing so.

People would probably laugh at some of the stuff on your list too.  "I'm with you on Led Zeppelin, Sabbath, and Maiden, but The Cars?  Hahaha.  Marillion?  I saw dudes wearing a Zeppelin shirt every day, probably didn't see a Marillion shirt once a year."

If you want to talk about most popular, that can be somewhat objective.  Most influential too.  But when most people talk about the best or the greatest, I think they're just talking about the music itself, and that's all subjective and should be.

[Stadler]

I guess; I just feel bad pointing out that someone's taste blows.    (I'm kidding; I'm the guy that believes there's only two types of music: music I like and music I don't). 

Oh, and the Cars?  C'mon, bro.   The debut?  It's like a Greatest Hits record.  Candy-O, one of the best "second records" ever.   Shake It Up, solid top to bottom.  "All killer, no filler" as Jammin' says.  Heartbeat City? MONSTER record.  Six singles (the "Mutt Lange" strategy, pre-Def Leppard), two number ones and a number three.   As I said, the only dud is potentially Panarama, and that's more because it deviated from the traditional Cars sound than because it sucked. 

[The Walrus]

I kid you not, I've only met one person locally who's even mentioned Marillion and he's like 60 years old. I didn't even read "Marillion" on the Internet until I joined MP's forum in 2011 (but I didn't hang around prog communities until around then).

EDIT: I just Googled The Cars. I know Just What I Needed and that song blows (AND sucks!) 

[Lethean]

Stadler - I'm not arguing with you - it was the hypothetical Sabbath and Maiden fan. And it was just an example.

(I'm personally not that familiar with The Cars but don't think I like the guy's voice much).

[Stadler]

Stadler - I'm not arguing with you - it was the hypothetical Sabbath and Maiden fan. And it was just an example.

(I'm personally not that familiar with The Cars but don't think I like the guy's voice much).

Ocasek, no.  But Ben Orr's voice is like velvet pajamas on silk sheets. 

[jammindude]

Never cared for the Cars beyond Living in Stereo and Drive

[Samsara]

Haken 100%. I honestly don't quite get the hype around Queensryche.

Same.

Queensryche 100%. I honestly don't get the hype around Haken AT ALL. And I've tried. Many times.

[Lowdz]

Very few bands even get close to Queensryche”s first few and Haken aren’t one of them for me.

[EPICVIEW]

Very few bands even get close to Queensryche”s first few and Haken aren’t one of them for me.

I agree   this is not even a real comparison   In not a Haken guy I always thought of them as more Kansas with more prog than hooks

QR by 100 country miles

[hefdaddy42]

Haken 100%. I honestly don't quite get the hype around Queensryche.

Same.

Queensryche 100%. I honestly don't get the hype around Haken AT ALL. And I've tried. Many times.

That's me, but with Queensryche. 

I remember when all their old stuff came out, and Empire was pretty big (had some good tunes), but nothing stuck with me.

But Haken is 10 pounds of fun in a 5 pound bag.  Great live, as well.  And there is the added bonus that their lead singer isn't a raging asshole.

But hey, opinions.  I don't expect everyone to like the same shit that I like.

[Samsara]

Haken 100%. I honestly don't quite get the hype around Queensryche.

Same.

Queensryche 100%. I honestly don't get the hype around Haken AT ALL. And I've tried. Many times.

That's me, but with Queensryche. 

I remember when all their old stuff came out, and Empire was pretty big (had some good tunes), but nothing stuck with me.

But Haken is 10 pounds of fun in a 5 pound bag.  Great live, as well.  And there is the added bonus that their lead singer isn't a raging asshole.

But hey, opinions.  I don't expect everyone to like the same shit that I like.

Hef - totally get it.

I think Haken is TOO prog for me, honestly. Queensryche, at least to my ear, was never a prog rock band. They were a hard rock/metal band with progressive tendencies, such as atmosphere, technicality, mood shifts, etc. Looking back, most of my favorite bands, or era of bands are like that -- not really a prog band, but a moody hard rock/metal band that dabbles with prog. Haken just isn't a band I've quite warmed up to, although there are moments that I'm like "that is pretty damn good" with them. But I just haven't gotten ENOUGH of those moments to really buy in as a fan.

[EPICVIEW]

I have to kind of laugh at some of the hyperbole here.  Haken's first five in a conversation about the greatest first five in history (not every post has limited it to prog-metal) seems to me to be hard to defend, no matter how much you like the band itself, unless of course that is the only metric we're looking at.

QR's start is very, very good, no question.

But I think there is a legit conversation about at least 10 other bands:
- Led Zeppelin 
- Black Sabbath
- Aerosmith (I suppose the first is a problem, but it does have "Dream On", their signature song)
- Marillion
- ELP (either counting "Pictures..." or "Works I")
- Iron Maiden (I suppose the first is a problem, but they do play a fair amount from that album to this day)
- U2
- AC/DC (depends of course, if you use "international releases" or "US only releases")
- Cheap Trick
- Van Halen
- The Cars (I suppose Panarama is a problem, but the two before and the two after are THAT good)
- Def Leppard (I suppose depending on your take, the first half or the last half are a problem, but both have their place)
- Bon Jovi
- Metallica (I suppose depending on your take, the first or the fifth are a problem, but both have their place in history)

Just for the record, none of those is actually my FAVORITE starter run; that's likely Kiss or Dream Theater.  Only the latter belongs in this conversation; the former is just my taste.

I like your thoughts here bro

[hefdaddy42]

Haken 100%. I honestly don't quite get the hype around Queensryche.

Same.

Queensryche 100%. I honestly don't get the hype around Haken AT ALL. And I've tried. Many times.

That's me, but with Queensryche. 

I remember when all their old stuff came out, and Empire was pretty big (had some good tunes), but nothing stuck with me.

But Haken is 10 pounds of fun in a 5 pound bag.  Great live, as well.  And there is the added bonus that their lead singer isn't a raging asshole.

But hey, opinions.  I don't expect everyone to like the same shit that I like.

Hef - totally get it.

I think Haken is TOO prog for me, honestly. Queensryche, at least to my ear, was never a prog rock band. They were a hard rock/metal band with progressive tendencies, such as atmosphere, technicality, mood shifts, etc. Looking back, most of my favorite bands, or era of bands are like that -- not really a prog band, but a moody hard rock/metal band that dabbles with prog. Haken just isn't a band I've quite warmed up to, although there are moments that I'm like "that is pretty damn good" with them. But I just haven't gotten ENOUGH of those moments to really buy in as a fan.

[Max Kuehnau]

Haken 100%. I honestly don't quite get the hype around Queensryche.

Same.

Queensryche 100%. I honestly don't get the hype around Haken AT ALL. And I've tried. Many times.

That's me, but with Queensryche. 

I remember when all their old stuff came out, and Empire was pretty big (had some good tunes), but nothing stuck with me.

But Haken is 10 pounds of fun in a 5 pound bag.  Great live, as well.  And there is the added bonus that their lead singer isn't a raging asshole.

But hey, opinions.  I don't expect everyone to like the same shit that I like.

Hef - totally get it.

I think Haken is TOO prog for me, honestly. Queensryche, at least to my ear, was never a prog rock band. They were a hard rock/metal band with progressive tendencies, such as atmosphere, technicality, mood shifts, etc. Looking back, most of my favorite bands, or era of bands are like that -- not really a prog band, but a moody hard rock/metal band that dabbles with prog. Haken just isn't a band I've quite warmed up to, although there are moments that I'm like "that is pretty damn good" with them. But I just haven't gotten ENOUGH of those moments to really buy in as a fan.

Is there such a thing as "too prog" though? (not to me anyway)

[Samsara]

Is there such a thing as "too prog" though? (not to me anyway)

Ha! Well, I think so. I mean I like bands that are in the "progressives" (metal, rock, etc.) genre, but there are elements of what people think of "prog" these days that I tend to really dislike. For example - long instrumental passages that sound nothing like the song in which they sit. A lot of people think that's very "prog," but for me, it kills great songs. I'm probably an oddity on this board because of that.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Not even close for me... Haken.  I was a HUGE QR dude back in the 80's.  Going by the albums though Haken is 5 for 5 where QR is 3.5 for 5.