Author Topic: DT popularity  (Read 18816 times)

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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #105 on: December 03, 2019, 03:10:46 PM »
what's wrong with throwing a bone or two to the diehards?
Bands themselves foster this mindset and it drives me completely nuts. My fave bands keep coming out with statements like this: "oh you all tell us to play this song or that song and when we play it only the first several rows go crazy and the rest of the folks in there just stand confused!" Bi**h, so what? Award us in the first several rows then! We're the ones that are going to come back to your show next time, and the folks who only know Pull Me Under will skip because "they've already seen this band live". What did DT expect when they played a non-album cut? The entire venue was supposed to explode into excitement?

I get it. You generally don't want to play songs that make the crowd go "huh?" or snooze. But what's the alternative here - selecting ten songs out of your Spotify top 20, adding what you're currently promoting to get up to 13 or 14 or 15, and doing that for every tour? Loads of my fave bands appear to be doing this and it drives me bananas.

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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #106 on: December 03, 2019, 04:45:52 PM »
One of the saddest things I read here was that they pulled Don't Look Past Me from the setlist because people were using it as a bathroom break. This is the peril of over-catering to the hardcore fan who just wants to hear exactly what they like. If you pull in a broader crowd of people who are there to enjoy seeing you play and not to have their specific tastes indulged, you won't have this problem.
Well, given that the vast majority of the show was catering to the average joe fan, what's wrong with throwing a bone or two to the diehards? I mean the setlist featured TDEN, AIA, BAI, all of IaW and ACoS - all of which are well known by the casual fan and made up over 80% of the show (that is, the actual time the band performed). And the 2 songs that were swapped out so that DLPM and TLF could be added were from their most divisive album that had just been featured on the previous tour - likely songs that plenty of fans used as bathroom break time when they were in the set. So I'm failing to see what's wrong with including something that might go over the heads of the general fan, but that the diehards loved.


I screwed up my wording there. The hardest of the hardcore fans might have known the song and enjoyed it, but there's a whole other group of hardcore fans, I think, who thought "is this one of their b-sides from a single I don't know? It's not a song I like, so time to hit the bathroom." I also think there would be a sizable contingent of fans that might not know the song, but would simply be there to enjoy good music and would be down for whatever.

Both of the above factors are why I actually think they should have stuck to their guns and kept the song in their set. You satisfy the hardest core fans (who will sustain your popularity in tough times, as well as pay the most money per fan) as well as the people who are just at your show to have fun (and who might become fans and/or tell their friends). Why worry about annoying your ultra-picky fans who over-scrutinize what you do? They don't pay as much as the die-hards, aren't as plentiful as the casuals, and they're the hardest to please.

I have to ask by the way, is TDEN really a crowd favorite?

The irony of all this is I still loved the show they played in Philly last spring, because they're just so good. But I also know how much they're still leaving on the table.
Yeah, this is really the key of it all. They're doing great and they haven't been relegated to nostalgia act status. But they could be doing even more.

I think if they don't do more soon, being a nostalgia act is an inevitability. I'd bet good money they play Six Degrees (the song) in its entirety come their 2022 tour.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #107 on: December 03, 2019, 08:12:39 PM »
Award us in the first several rows then! We're the ones that are going to come back to your show next time, and the folks who only know Pull Me Under will skip because "they've already seen this band live". What did DT expect when they played a non-album cut? The entire venue was supposed to explode into excitement?
Actually, I expressed those sentiments to JP when I saw DT earlier this year. Trying to help him see that it's OK for most of the audience to sit still for a song or two. And just because they're not going nuts doesn't mean they're not enjoying it - it could simply be a matter of them trying to figure out if they know the song or taking in a completely unfamiliar experience.
 
 
I have to ask by the way, is TDEN really a crowd favorite?
I'd say it is compared to anything else off of SC. It's been played more than any other song from that album and that opening riff seems to pump up the crowds pretty well.


I think if they don't do more soon, being a nostalgia act is an inevitability.
I don't think I agree with that. As long as the band keeps releasing new material and doing tours in support of it, and not just including one or two songs off of it, they should be able to avoid becoming a nostalgia act.


I'd bet good money they play Six Degrees (the song) in its entirety come their 2022 tour.
Dear lord I hope not. Enough with the anniversary crap. It's been done to death. If they do, then they'll be starting to straddle that line of becoming a nostalgia act.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline gzarruk

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2019, 08:16:13 PM »
Award us in the first several rows then! We're the ones that are going to come back to your show next time, and the folks who only know Pull Me Under will skip because "they've already seen this band live". What did DT expect when they played a non-album cut? The entire venue was supposed to explode into excitement?
Actually, I expressed those sentiments to JP when I saw DT earlier this year. Trying to help him see that it's OK for most of the audience to sit still for a song or two. And just because they're not going nuts doesn't mean they're not enjoying it - it could simply be a matter of them trying to figure out if they know the song or taking in a completely unfamiliar experience.

What did he say about that?
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #109 on: December 03, 2019, 08:18:14 PM »
Award us in the first several rows then! We're the ones that are going to come back to your show next time, and the folks who only know Pull Me Under will skip because "they've already seen this band live". What did DT expect when they played a non-album cut? The entire venue was supposed to explode into excitement?
Actually, I expressed those sentiments to JP when I saw DT earlier this year. Trying to help him see that it's OK for most of the audience to sit still for a song or two. And just because they're not going nuts doesn't mean they're not enjoying it - it could simply be a matter of them trying to figure out if they know the song or taking in a completely unfamiliar experience.
What did he say about that?
Not much. Really nothing significant that I remember. I think he agreed with me, but whether he'll keep that in mind for future tours is a different story. I hope he does.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2019, 01:29:16 AM »
Anyway, are fans that entitled that a single song can make or break a show or their desire to see them again? I strongly dislike The Dark Eternal Night, they opened the last tour with it, booh oooh, should I have walked away? how dare they not know I don't like the song!  ::)

But I immediately got The Bigger Picture afterwards, and the entire Images and Words album and A Change of friggin' Seasons. Like anybody else - and I'm talking of all concerts, not just DT's - I too have my wishes, hopes and desires for the setlists, but it's any band's call to create the show they want to perform. If the entire show sucks is a different issue, but I never judged a show by a single song or two that I didn't like.

Another example - last year (to the day!) I saw Nightwish's great concert for their Decades tour, 2h and 20' of amazing stuff, I didn't like just TWO songs. Well, one I didn't like and the other I totally didn't remember. I just went along with it, it's not that now I'm thinking "they played a song I didn't know, unless next tour will have exactly all the songs I like I'm not gonna see them".

Screw people that think like that, don't cater to them  :D
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Offline ?

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2019, 02:01:11 AM »
Well, my comment was after reading this..

- younger generations are simply not as interested in rock music,

…it wasn't so much about being succesful.

They aren't as succesful because younger generations aren't not as interested in rock music. There's not enough demand.
Bingo. For example Finland has the largest number of metal bands per capita, but Tuska Festival in Helsinki had to stop being an all-ages event after 2018 when less than 100 underage folks attended it and the extra expenses weren't worth it anymore.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2019, 02:10:30 AM »
Uh? what extra expenses are needed for having kids? or you mean that it's not about the teenagers, but actual babies for whom there's the need to set up areas to change their diapers and more generally attend better to them?
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2019, 02:14:24 AM »
You probably need to put in some extra precautions and employees in to make sure no one is selling drinks to underage folks, for one.

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Offline ?

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2019, 02:19:01 AM »
You probably need to put in some extra precautions and employees in to make sure no one is selling drinks to underage folks, for one.
Yup, there have to be separate bar areas for grownups to drink in.

Offline ZirconBlue

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2019, 08:56:39 AM »
I wish they would break out 1 or 2 rarities for each tour.  Even if the crowd doesn't seem into them, they are good for the die-hard fans, and if there's going to be a live recording of the tour, it's nice to have some new stuff on it.  Once upon a time DT would even play songs live that hadn't been released yet. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #116 on: December 04, 2019, 08:31:27 PM »
I wish they would break out 1 or 2 rarities for each tour.  Even if the crowd doesn't seem into them, they are good for the die-hard fans, and if there's going to be a live recording of the tour, it's nice to have some new stuff on it.  Once upon a time DT would even play songs live that hadn't been released yet.

Technically, they are playing some rarities this tour.

A Nightmare to Remember hadn't been played in 9 years.  Some of the Scenes songs (Through Her Eyes, One Last Time) hadn't been played since the M:2000 tour, except for maybe a show or two where all of Scenes was played (Brazil?), and Home, a major DT classic, hadn't been played in well over 10 years. 

Now, there are of course different tiers of rarities, and A Nightmare to Remember and those Scenes songs aren't as rare as Don't Look Past Me or some of the FII demos that didn't make the album, but they are still rarities.

Offline TAC

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #117 on: December 04, 2019, 08:36:37 PM »
One Last Time was played on the BC&SL tour.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #118 on: December 04, 2019, 08:39:48 PM »
One Last Time was played on the BC&SL tour.

Ah, I had forgotten that.  Not getting played in almost 10 years still makes it a rarity, so my point stands. :biggrin:

Offline Peter Mc

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2019, 06:02:14 AM »
Don’t Look Past Me is a decent song but it’s not a classic, it’s an unreleased outtake. Dream Theater have a huge back catalogue of material to pick from now so why on earth should they be delving into unreleased demos for material particularly if audiences aren’t into it?

Do people actually watch other bands live? Do Iron Maiden, Rush, Bon Jovi etc start pulling out old demos in their live shows? No, they stick to their big hits, stuff of the latest album and maybe play the odd album track they haven’t played for a while if you’re lucky. Do you think Maiden fans complain when they play Hallowed Be Thy Name or 2 Minutes To Midnight for the millionth time or do Bon Jovi fans complain when Wanted Dead Or Alive, Livin On A Prayer come on? No they sing along and belt those songs out.

DT fans are lucky in a sense as DT don’t have big hits so you’re not hearing the same stuff on every tour, it varies a lot from tour to tour but people still find stuff to complain about. They’re playing to a click, wtf cares? I’m sorry but DT never put on crazy, sweaty rock shows. People go to see them play their instruments and play these incredibly technical intricate songs and pull them off live. It’s always been that way even when Portnoy was in the band. I think Portnoy even said that the spectacle of a DT show was seeing them play their instruments. It’s always been a performance rather than a big rock show, Portnoy throwing his sticks in the air and occasionally standing up added a little bit of showmanship but not much and JLB has upped his game in that regard in recent years.

Dream Theater are out there playing their asses off doing 2.5 - 3 hour shows every night doing a mix of new stuff and old and celebrating the 20 year anniversary of their greatest album, give them a break for fucks sake.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2019, 06:41:10 AM »
I love your counterpoints, but I feel like you've misread a large portion of the conversation. This isn't just a "whine about recent setlist" topic, it's us discussing if DT is shrinking in popularity judging by concert attendance, and the reasons why the shrinking or plateauing might be happening based on the setlist choices, inclusion of the click, and other things. Some people mentioned Iron Maiden's model of touring (one legacy tour, one new album tour) and how they like it better than what DT has been doing most of this year (combining the legacy tour with the new album tour). Others brought up the click track, not because DT's shows used to be sweaty rock shows (though, the bootlegs from the 90's certainly paint that exact picture!), but because the extras in the shows used to be of a musical variety, like: if you attend ten shows in the same town you won't get many setlist repeats, you'll see some jamming sometimes, there's always some rare cuts waiting to be played for the first time. Nowadays the "extra" that you pay a hefty price for is a great audio-visual production, and that's fantastic, but there has been a change that doesn't appeal to everyone.

Yeah, I'll admit I whined about DLPM getting the boot, because I feel like putting that song in the setlist yielded exactly the right results (the hardcore fans adored the inclusion even if they don't like the song much, casual fans were neutral to mildly negative). But they expected something else, probably.

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Offline Lethean

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2019, 06:44:53 AM »
Peter, I'm pretty much with you.  I saw several shows on this tour and loved every minute of each one.  Yeah, they play to a click and I really couldn't care less.  I don't know what it was like in the balcony where people were sitting, but on the floor there was an energy between the band and crowd, something in the air, and it was great.

Having said that, people do complain about Maiden playing the same songs all the time - I know people who have skipped tours because of that. :)  Myself sort of included, though I would probably have seen them if they played nearby.

I do get people wanting more setlist variety - I do too.  I loved that aspect from the past; but I'm still seeing them.  I might offer up my opinions/preferences, but hopefully I also do so in a respectful way.

And yeah - with you 100% about it not being much different pre/post MP when they were playing seated venues.  Even GA shows weren't necessarily wild, but there was a little more energy from the crowd.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2019, 07:04:02 AM »
Don’t Look Past Me is a decent song but it’s not a classic, it’s an unreleased outtake. Dream Theater have a huge back catalogue of material to pick from now so why on earth should they be delving into unreleased demos for material particularly if audiences aren’t into it?
Because that particular tour focused on that specific period of the band's history. So it was perfectly appropriate to finally include it in the setlist. It's a shame that the band didn't stick to their guns and keep it in the setlist. Had the band kept it in the setlist, and especially put out a live album from that tour, the song would be much more well known, just as Raise the Knife and Another Won both became better known after being featured on Score. That's why.
 
 
Do people actually watch other bands live? Do Iron Maiden, Rush, Bon Jovi etc start pulling out old demos in their live shows? No, they stick to their big hits, stuff of the latest album and maybe play the odd album track they haven’t played for a while if you’re lucky. Do you think Maiden fans complain when they play Hallowed Be Thy Name or 2 Minutes To Midnight for the millionth time or do Bon Jovi fans complain when Wanted Dead Or Alive, Livin On A Prayer come on? No they sing along and belt those songs out.
Rush has actually been pretty good about not including a lot of popular songs in their setlists on every tour. Yes, you could be guaranteed to see Tom Sawyer and The Spirit of Radio on any given tour, but aside from that, they did a pretty good job of changing things up from tour to tour - especially since the Vapor Trails tour. And just FYI, while it was just a 10 second teaser tacked on to the end of Working Man, Rush did include one of their early, unreleased songs during their final tour - no doubt a little nod to the diehards.

Just in the same way there are those of us DT fans who complain, you can be sure there are plenty of diehard fans of other bands that complain about how the same tired hits are played at every show on every tour. I know I've seen it with regards to Rush and Iron Maiden. You can be sure it's true of many other bands, too. There may be plenty of casual fans who "sing along and belt those songs out" but there are also the diehards in attendance who roll their eyes when those songs come up. Nevermind other fans like me who go to see a lot of these bands once and have no need to see them again because so much of the setlist is the same every tour.
 
 
I’m sorry but DT never put on crazy, sweaty rock shows. People go to see them play their instruments and play these incredibly technical intricate songs and pull them off live. It’s always been that way even when Portnoy was in the band.
Nope. Did you ever see the band in the 90s or early 2000s? Especially in the 90s, they *did* put on crazy, sweaty rock shows - I know because I saw them, as did Graham, Tim and other old school fans. Sure they played intricate and technical songs, but that didn't mean that there wasn't a certain level of spontaneity or craziness in their shows. It may not be at the level of some bands, but certainly it was there in comparison to the rigid programmed performances we see now.
 
 
It’s always been a performance rather than a big rock show
No it hasn't. If it was, then us old school fans who actually saw those shows wouldn't be bringing it up. At those shows, there was the feeling that anything could happen, and sometimes did - that feeling is long gone now. Listen to bootlegs, especially from 1995 through 2002, and tell me those shows have the same feel as the shows of today.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Trav86

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2019, 07:13:19 AM »
^ What he said.
Can't we find the minds
to lead us closer to the heart?

Offline Lethean

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2019, 07:17:29 AM »
But, are the 90s shows really the reason for less popularity now? If you just wanted to correct the "never" comment for the record, fair enough.

But some seem to be implying that the difference in sweaty rock show vs not is more recent, maybe pre/post click or something, and I definitely don't think so. I think that difference is more due to GA/seated venues.

Offline Stadler

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2019, 07:23:56 AM »
Scotty covered most of this, and far better than I (because he was actually there for some of the shows I'm referencing) but nonetheless...

Do people actually watch other bands live? Do Iron Maiden, Rush, Bon Jovi etc start pulling out old demos in their live shows? No, they stick to their big hits, stuff of the latest album and maybe play the odd album track they haven’t played for a while if you’re lucky. Do you think Maiden fans complain when they play Hallowed Be Thy Name or 2 Minutes To Midnight for the millionth time or do Bon Jovi fans complain when Wanted Dead Or Alive, Livin On A Prayer come on? No they sing along and belt those songs out.

Not an unfair point, but it's not really apples to apples.  I think there are differences in the audience that matter (there is no "bootleg" culture in the Bon Jovi universe, and there is far more likely a member of that audience that's there for the radio hit they heard last summer).    But the Maiden fans DO complain about "Run To The Hills", "Fear Of The Dark", et al., and Bruce, for one, has addressed that a couple times.  The BAND has addressed that I think about five times over the past 20 years by doing their alternating album/legacy shows.   

I think the popularity factor makes this a circular argument.  If you're playing 20,000 seat arenas as a headliner, it's a different equation than selling 1,500 seats in a theater.   At any given Maiden or Bon Jovi show there is a percentage of fans that are there for the last song, or the song in the encore.  I've seen enough Kiss shows, that even after 40 years, Rock And Roll All Nite STILL gets the best reaction of any song in their setlist.    That's not because I'm there, wishing for "Sweet Pain" or "Flaming Youth".   Put a different way, a 20,000 seat arena Bon Jovi show is getting a number of people that are "ah, fuck it, I'll scalp a ticket, have a few beers and see what the girls are wearing at the Jovi show.  Hope they play a song I know".  A 1,500 seat theater DT show is not. 

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I’m sorry but DT never put on crazy, sweaty rock shows. People go to see them play their instruments and play these incredibly technical intricate songs and pull them off live. It’s always been that way even when Portnoy was in the band. I think Portnoy even said that the spectacle of a DT show was seeing them play their instruments. It’s always been a performance rather than a big rock show, Portnoy throwing his sticks in the air and occasionally standing up added a little bit of showmanship but not much and JLB has upped his game in that regard in recent years.

Up until... Scenes, I guess, DT was playing places around me like Toad's Place and the El & Gee Club, and while I didn't see any of those shows, be straight right up front, I've seen OTHER shows in those places, and BY DEFINITION they are sweaty rock shows.    And not to throw fuel, but in the post-Portnoy show I saw, JLB did not up his game all that much.   He SOUNDED great, but he wasn't noticeably more animated than the last show I saw with Portnoy.

Quote
Dream Theater are out there playing their asses off doing 2.5 - 3 hour shows every night doing a mix of new stuff and old and celebrating the 20 year anniversary of their greatest album, give them a break for fucks sake.

Also not an unfair comment.  But for someone who's been there, done that, 10, 12 times and has t-shirts for every one of them, what's the new attraction?

I'm really not taking a stand here, since I think you make very good points and my "care" level is pretty low on this, but I do see both sides to the equation.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 08:05:22 AM by Stadler »

Offline noxon

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2019, 07:29:25 AM »
DT become the most popular across the world at the same time they started doing much more orchestrated - high production value - shows in the early 2000s, mid 2000s. So the empirical evidence tells DT and their management that "professionalism = attract more audience"

Offline Peter Mc

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #127 on: December 05, 2019, 07:49:16 AM »
Don’t Look Past Me is a decent song but it’s not a classic, it’s an unreleased outtake. Dream Theater have a huge back catalogue of material to pick from now so why on earth should they be delving into unreleased demos for material particularly if audiences aren’t into it?
Because that particular tour focused on that specific period of the band's history. So it was perfectly appropriate to finally include it in the setlist. It's a shame that the band didn't stick to their guns and keep it in the setlist. Had the band kept it in the setlist, and especially put out a live album from that tour, the song would be much more well known, just as Raise the Knife and Another Won both became better known after being featured on Score. That's why.
 
 
Do people actually watch other bands live? Do Iron Maiden, Rush, Bon Jovi etc start pulling out old demos in their live shows? No, they stick to their big hits, stuff of the latest album and maybe play the odd album track they haven’t played for a while if you’re lucky. Do you think Maiden fans complain when they play Hallowed Be Thy Name or 2 Minutes To Midnight for the millionth time or do Bon Jovi fans complain when Wanted Dead Or Alive, Livin On A Prayer come on? No they sing along and belt those songs out.
Rush has actually been pretty good about not including a lot of popular songs in their setlists on every tour. Yes, you could be guaranteed to see Tom Sawyer and The Spirit of Radio on any given tour, but aside from that, they did a pretty good job of changing things up from tour to tour - especially since the Vapor Trails tour. And just FYI, while it was just a 10 second teaser tacked on to the end of Working Man, Rush did include one of their early, unreleased songs during their final tour - no doubt a little nod to the diehards.

Just in the same way there are those of us DT fans who complain, you can be sure there are plenty of diehard fans of other bands that complain about how the same tired hits are played at every show on every tour. I know I've seen it with regards to Rush and Iron Maiden. You can be sure it's true of many other bands, too. There may be plenty of casual fans who "sing along and belt those songs out" but there are also the diehards in attendance who roll their eyes when those songs come up. Nevermind other fans like me who go to see a lot of these bands once and have no need to see them again because so much of the setlist is the same every tour.
 
 
I’m sorry but DT never put on crazy, sweaty rock shows. People go to see them play their instruments and play these incredibly technical intricate songs and pull them off live. It’s always been that way even when Portnoy was in the band.
Nope. Did you ever see the band in the 90s or early 2000s? Especially in the 90s, they *did* put on crazy, sweaty rock shows - I know because I saw them, as did Graham, Tim and other old school fans. Sure they played intricate and technical songs, but that didn't mean that there wasn't a certain level of spontaneity or craziness in their shows. It may not be at the level of some bands, but certainly it was there in comparison to the rigid programmed performances we see now.
 
 
It’s always been a performance rather than a big rock show
No it hasn't. If it was, then us old school fans who actually saw those shows wouldn't be bringing it up. At those shows, there was the feeling that anything could happen, and sometimes did - that feeling is long gone now. Listen to bootlegs, especially from 1995 through 2002, and tell me those shows have the same feel as the shows of today.

I wasn’t there in the very early days but have seen every tour from FII onwards so that’s 20 years of touring and they were not super energetic sweaty rock shows with the audience going crazy. It’s generally been prog nerds geeking out at how amazing the musicianship is in my experience. You got a few headbangers in during the early Roadrunner years but that’s about it. They simply don’t give out that level of energy from the stage, Petrucci is not a showman guitar player, La Brie is not a Jon Bon Jovi, Ozzy Osbourne level frontman. Portnoy did make an effort but he’s the drummer at the end of the day, not the frontman, it was never enough to electrify a crowd.  Maybe in the very early days when they were young kids out of college, playing small clubs it was a bit different, I’ll admit I wasn’t seeing them back then.  It was a bit looser with Portnoy with more improvisation (although that gradually disappeared to a large degree) but going to see Dream Theater in the last 20 odd years has never been a concert where I expected to see a crowd bouncing around head banging. It’s mainly been standing and watching, now sitting and watching with applause/cheers at appropriate moments.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2019, 07:54:00 AM »
Regarding the live crowds, the material the band is playing has a huge influence on how active and energetic they are.  Nothing gets a DT crowd going like playing songs from Scenes from a Memory or Images and Words.  The excitement level of the crowd when they played here a few months back sky rocketed in the second set when Scenes was played. 

Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #129 on: December 05, 2019, 09:12:50 AM »
Regarding the live crowds, the material the band is playing has a huge influence on how active and energetic they are.  Nothing gets a DT crowd going like playing songs from Scenes from a Memory or Images and Words.  The excitement level of the crowd when they played here a few months back sky rocketed in the second set when Scenes was played.
this exactly was the reaction I observed when I saw them on the I/W 2.0 tour in Hamburg (although IIRC, there wasn't any Met2 material being played that day) and it was a great concert too (as I expected, to be honest, but it still was beyond my expectations)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 09:18:23 AM by Max Kuehnau »
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Offline Lupton

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #130 on: December 05, 2019, 09:39:23 AM »
At those shows, there was the feeling that anything could happen, and sometimes did - that feeling is long gone now. Listen to bootlegs, especially from 1995 through 2002, and tell me those shows have the same feel as the shows of today.

I've always blamed Phish for that. Those guys and the way they approached their live shows were hugely popular and influential during...well those exact years you just referenced.

Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #131 on: December 05, 2019, 10:06:40 AM »
Don’t Look Past Me is a decent song but it’s not a classic, it’s an unreleased outtake. Dream Theater have a huge back catalogue of material to pick from now so why on earth should they be delving into unreleased demos for material particularly if audiences aren’t into it?
Because that particular tour focused on that specific period of the band's history. So it was perfectly appropriate to finally include it in the setlist. It's a shame that the band didn't stick to their guns and keep it in the setlist. Had the band kept it in the setlist, and especially put out a live album from that tour, the song would be much more well known, just as Raise the Knife and Another Won both became better known after being featured on Score. That's why.
 
 
Do people actually watch other bands live? Do Iron Maiden, Rush, Bon Jovi etc start pulling out old demos in their live shows? No, they stick to their big hits, stuff of the latest album and maybe play the odd album track they haven’t played for a while if you’re lucky. Do you think Maiden fans complain when they play Hallowed Be Thy Name or 2 Minutes To Midnight for the millionth time or do Bon Jovi fans complain when Wanted Dead Or Alive, Livin On A Prayer come on? No they sing along and belt those songs out.
Rush has actually been pretty good about not including a lot of popular songs in their setlists on every tour. Yes, you could be guaranteed to see Tom Sawyer and The Spirit of Radio on any given tour, but aside from that, they did a pretty good job of changing things up from tour to tour - especially since the Vapor Trails tour. And just FYI, while it was just a 10 second teaser tacked on to the end of Working Man, Rush did include one of their early, unreleased songs during their final tour - no doubt a little nod to the diehards.

Just in the same way there are those of us DT fans who complain, you can be sure there are plenty of diehard fans of other bands that complain about how the same tired hits are played at every show on every tour. I know I've seen it with regards to Rush and Iron Maiden. You can be sure it's true of many other bands, too. There may be plenty of casual fans who "sing along and belt those songs out" but there are also the diehards in attendance who roll their eyes when those songs come up. Nevermind other fans like me who go to see a lot of these bands once and have no need to see them again because so much of the setlist is the same every tour.
 
 
I’m sorry but DT never put on crazy, sweaty rock shows. People go to see them play their instruments and play these incredibly technical intricate songs and pull them off live. It’s always been that way even when Portnoy was in the band.
Nope. Did you ever see the band in the 90s or early 2000s? Especially in the 90s, they *did* put on crazy, sweaty rock shows - I know because I saw them, as did Graham, Tim and other old school fans. Sure they played intricate and technical songs, but that didn't mean that there wasn't a certain level of spontaneity or craziness in their shows. It may not be at the level of some bands, but certainly it was there in comparison to the rigid programmed performances we see now.
 
 
It’s always been a performance rather than a big rock show
No it hasn't. If it was, then us old school fans who actually saw those shows wouldn't be bringing it up. At those shows, there was the feeling that anything could happen, and sometimes did - that feeling is long gone now. Listen to bootlegs, especially from 1995 through 2002, and tell me those shows have the same feel as the shows of today.
This is why my father never chose to see MM era DT live with me. (and since you mentioned the timeframe of 95 - 2002, I own 3 bootlegs from that time and I agree that it's different now) I for one like the consistency DT show now (although less so on this tour, judging from the YT clips I've watched), although I can understand (to some very minute degree) why some people are puzzled by the predictable aspect of DT now (or what they percieve as predictable)
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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #132 on: December 05, 2019, 11:31:31 AM »
As someone who attended the crazy, sweaty, DT rock shows (and got caught up in a pit that surfed me from one end of a venue to another), DT, at one time, was much more about rocking the hell out (with technicality), rather than being metal theater.

Any fan who saw them live from the beginning through the initial SFAM run knows that. Hell, even the BB Kings show on Six Degrees (Jan. 2002, if memory serves) was more of a rock show. They morphed, over time, into the act you see now. Which is, very, very good. But they are a different kind of band now.
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Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #133 on: December 05, 2019, 11:36:54 AM »
As someone who attended the crazy, sweaty, DT rock shows (and got caught up in a pit that surfed me from one end of a venue to another), DT, at one time, was much more about rocking the hell out (with technicality), rather than being metal theater.

Any fan who saw them live from the beginning through the initial SFAM run knows that. Hell, even the BB Kings show on Six Degrees (Jan. 2002, if memory serves) was more of a rock show. They morphed, over time, into the act you see now. Which is, very, very good. But they are a different kind of band now.
I did attend 6 MP era DT shows (2000, 2002 and 2004) and 3 MM era DT shows (2014, 2016, 2017), and so I know what you mean. They were a lot looser then. (not using clicks either at the time IIRC)
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Offline cramx3

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #134 on: December 05, 2019, 11:56:28 AM »
As someone who attended the crazy, sweaty, DT rock shows (and got caught up in a pit that surfed me from one end of a venue to another), DT, at one time, was much more about rocking the hell out (with technicality), rather than being metal theater.

Any fan who saw them live from the beginning through the initial SFAM run knows that. Hell, even the BB Kings show on Six Degrees (Jan. 2002, if memory serves) was more of a rock show. They morphed, over time, into the act you see now. Which is, very, very good. But they are a different kind of band now.

The best part about the Santiago official bootleg is how crazy the crowd is and that was already past this time you are talking about in 2005.  It's unlike any other DT concert I've seen in terms of crowd response (in person or on video).  I'm sure those 90s shows were pretty wild and fun.

Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #135 on: December 05, 2019, 11:59:10 AM »
As someone who attended the crazy, sweaty, DT rock shows (and got caught up in a pit that surfed me from one end of a venue to another), DT, at one time, was much more about rocking the hell out (with technicality), rather than being metal theater.

Any fan who saw them live from the beginning through the initial SFAM run knows that. Hell, even the BB Kings show on Six Degrees (Jan. 2002, if memory serves) was more of a rock show. They morphed, over time, into the act you see now. Which is, very, very good. But they are a different kind of band now.

The best part about the Santiago official bootleg is how crazy the crowd is and that was already past this time you are talking about in 2005.  It's unlike any other DT concert I've seen in terms of crowd response (in person or on video).  I'm sure those 90s shows were pretty wild and fun.
I can tell you that I percieved my first DT show (in 2000, but still, it applies) to be somewhat wild and definitely interspersed with humourous bits. One aspect I remember pretty well was that they played Erotomania and MP was wearing a Kiss mask while playing the entire piece. (I think it was Ace's mask, I'm not sure though) I thought that was funny and somewhat absurd too. (and JM being bombarded with a chocolate cake in 2004 because it was his birthday that day, during the indefinite silence in Met1 that they had implemented in the MP era, some of us here may remember that aspect too)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 02:25:07 PM by Max Kuehnau »
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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #136 on: December 05, 2019, 03:45:58 PM »
DT in Glasgow on the SFAM tour back in 2000. Petrucci's guitar rig goes out half way through. What do they do? Why, they pull a fan out of the crowd onto the stage to sing War Pigs while the guitar tech gets to work.

The guitar comes alive again, JP joins in the impromptu Sabbath jam, and the whole place just fucking ERUPTS.

That kind of sweaty unplanned awesomeness just doesn't happen any more.

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Offline cramx3

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #137 on: December 05, 2019, 03:51:25 PM »
DT in Glasgow on the SFAM tour back in 2000. Petrucci's guitar rig goes out half way through. What do they do? Why, they pull a fan out of the crowd onto the stage to sing War Pigs while the guitar tech gets to work.

The guitar comes alive again, JP joins in the impromptu Sabbath jam, and the whole place just fucking ERUPTS.

That kind of sweaty unplanned awesomeness just doesn't happen any more.

I wonder what they would do today if that happened, but DT do still seem like a band that would try and entertain if they had an outage like that, but I absolutely love it when I am lucky enough for these types of mishaps to happen at shows I go to.  Such as the power going out during Powerslave from Iron Maiden at MSG 10 years ago so they started playing soccer on stage  :lol

Offline Lonk

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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #138 on: December 05, 2019, 04:02:38 PM »
Something happened during this tour with JP’s guitar and JR/MM started improvising during a march show.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ba5bEit62u4
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Re: DT popularity
« Reply #139 on: December 05, 2019, 10:45:14 PM »
Believe me,  a lot of people still listen to the radio. I notice it everywhere I go. The band's that do get radio exposure have more album sales and bigger turnouts to their shows.  Avenged Sevenfold, Godsmack, Ghost, and Volbeat come to mind along with many others.   Halestorm is also picking up momentum at their live shows. Why??  Because these bands are getting played all over on hard rock radio.

I'm way out of touch. I thought it was all Internet exposure these days.

Yeah, I'll admit I whined about DLPM getting the boot, because I feel like putting that song in the setlist yielded exactly the right results (the hardcore fans adored the inclusion even if they don't like the song much, casual fans were neutral to mildly negative). But they expected something else, probably.

Why would hardcore fans love to see a song live if they're not into the song?
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