Author Topic: Transposing Instruments  (Read 1643 times)

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Offline pg1067

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Transposing Instruments
« on: November 11, 2019, 04:25:58 PM »
I realize this is a little off the beaten path, but I think there are number of folks here with a pretty good understanding of non-rock instruments and what not.

Can someone explain the point of a transposing instrument to me?

I understand the concept well enough.  There's nothing really special about the instrument itself.  Like any other instrument, you blow into it and notes come out.  It's more of an issue of the musical notation:  when a trumpet player plays a note identified on the staff as a "C," what's really being produced is a B-flat (and yes, I realize that there are trumpets other than B-flat trumpets).

But why do that?  Why not write the note that sounds as a "C" as a "C" on the sheet music?

I played trumpet from 4th or 5th through 9th grade and don't really ever being told that the notes I was playing were not what I thought they were.  While that might be more of a commentary on the quality of my early music education, clearly no one thought it was worth explaining this to me and my fellow students.

I did some googling and didn't really find an answer beyond (a) explanations of what transposing instruments are and (b) "it is what it is."  Just curious for any insight.
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Offline nattmorker

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Re: Transposing Instruments
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2019, 05:41:22 PM »
It is curious for me that you bring this up today... My wife is a classically trained musician (she play flute) and yesterday she was doing a transposition to play something written for clarinet (I think) and I was saying the same thing to her. I think the same as you, I don't get why do they have to do this, I assume it would be easier and more practical to write the actual notes they are playing. I've read some things about it, but it has never been clear to me.

Sorry I don't have something more useful to add.

Offline bl5150

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Re: Transposing Instruments
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2019, 04:47:02 AM »
You're generally talking wind instruments when transposing which ain't ma thang , but in essence I think it is this way so that it is easier to switch from one instrument to the other within the same family of instruments and maintain the same/similar fingering for the same note on the staff (even though it produces a different pitch in reality.)  Hope that makes some sense?


Funnily enough , not many realise it but even guitar sheet music is transposed a whole octave down.  "Middle C" on guitar sheet music is played as 3rd fret on the fifth string when in actual fact middle C pitch is first fret on the 2nd string.
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Re: Transposing Instruments
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2019, 08:36:17 AM »
^ bl has it right. The fingerings for the written notes remain the same for different instruments, even though the actual pitch is different. This makes it so that saxophone players can switch between an alto sax (in Eb) to a tenor or baritone sax (in Bb), for example, without having to overly think about where to place their fingers.

If I got this right, the fingerings stem from a recorder, which is in concert tuning. Playing for example a G on a recorder uses the exact same fingering as a G on a tenor sax (which would sound like an A).

And yes, guitar sheet music is transposed as well, correct.
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Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: Transposing Instruments
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2019, 12:36:53 PM »
Funnily enough , not many realise it but even guitar sheet music is transposed a whole octave down.  "Middle C" on guitar sheet music is played as 3rd fret on the fifth string when in actual fact middle C pitch is first fret on the 2nd string.
Never knew about that actually, interesting.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Transposing Instruments
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2019, 02:55:58 PM »
^ bl has it right. The fingerings for the written notes remain the same for different instruments, even though the actual pitch is different. This makes it so that saxophone players can switch between an alto sax (in Eb) to a tenor or baritone sax (in Bb), for example, without having to overly think about where to place their fingers.

If I got this right, the fingerings stem from a recorder, which is in concert tuning. Playing for example a G on a recorder uses the exact same fingering as a G on a tenor sax (which would sound like an A).

Almost right.  All modern woodwinds use the Boehm System of fingering, named after Theobald Boehm.  But Boehm was a flautist.  Technically a recorder is a very simple member of the flute family, but the fingering system started with the concert flute.

People ask me a lot "how many instruments do you play?" and hate it when I tell them "It depends on how you count them".  I play saxophone, which means I can play alto, tenor, soprano, baritone, or even bass saxophone, because the same fingering produces the same notes.  So does that count as one instrument or five?

D on a flute is the same as a D on a saxophone, an E is an E, etc.  And that works for regular (concert) flute, alto flute, bass flute, and piccolo.  Is that one instrument or four?  They're all played the same way.  There are a couple of notes with quirky fingerings, but for the most part, if you can play one woodwind, you can play them all.

It has to be this way.  Since a tenor sax is larger than an alto, it plays in a lower pitch range.  But you can't worry about which instrument you're playing and use an entirely different set of finger combinations for each instrument.  Instead, the notes are all the same, and you transpose in your head or transpose the written music itself.

The one exception is the clarinet family.  For some reason known only to the inventor of the clarinet and probably Satan himself, when you switch registers on a clarinet, you go down a 12th, not an octave, so for half of the instrument you really do have to "think" in a different range.  This is why clarinet players are all psychotic.

Offline ZirconBlue

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Re: Transposing Instruments
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2019, 12:15:47 PM »


It has to be this way.  Since a tenor sax is larger than an alto, it plays in a lower pitch range.  But you can't worry about which instrument you're playing and use an entirely different set of finger combinations for each instrument.  Instead, the notes are all the same, and you transpose in your head or transpose the written music itself.



In the brass world low brass tends to not be transposed, so, for me as a tuba player, switching from BBb to C tuba means learning a new set of fingers for each note.  I would prefer the transposed model. 

Offline Orbert

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Re: Transposing Instruments
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2019, 12:31:32 PM »
That's goofy.  I always wondered what the deal is with the BBb tuba.  It plays a step lower, so you have to use all different fingerings?  That would suck.  You still have the option of using concert tuning anyway, transpose the music in your head, and then "un-transpose" it with your fingers.  I'm sure it could be done with a little practice, but man, they should just have the sheet music written in the right key for you.

At a certain point, it's just academic anyway.  For example, my band does a song in G, and I take a saxophone solo.  Alto saxophone is an Eb instrument, meaning that it plays 3 half-steps above concert pitch.  I therefore play in E, and it "sounds like I'm playing in G" with the rest of the band because of the instrument itself.  If I took the solo on a tenor sax, which is Bb, I'd play the solo in A, and it would sound like G.  The important thing is that once you know what key to play in, the notes are all the same.

Offline Lonk

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Re: Transposing Instruments
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2019, 02:50:12 PM »
And that is why I only play guitar and piano. I never been interested in wind instruments and thought they were complicated for no good reason.

While I was teaching, I remember having to transpose the music for 3 different instruments because my students would get confused (I think they learned without reading music), so I had to create 3 separate sheet music for soprano, alto and tenor sax.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Transposing Instruments
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2019, 04:06:51 PM »


It has to be this way.  Since a tenor sax is larger than an alto, it plays in a lower pitch range.  But you can't worry about which instrument you're playing and use an entirely different set of finger combinations for each instrument.  Instead, the notes are all the same, and you transpose in your head or transpose the written music itself.



In the brass world low brass tends to not be transposed, so, for me as a tuba player, switching from BBb to C tuba means learning a new set of fingers for each note.  I would prefer the transposed model.

I was gonna point that out.  When I was in elementary school, I played (B-flat) trumpet.  At some point (and for reasons I can't recall), I switched to "french horn."  In preparation, my mom took me to a music store and bought me a beginner book that, of course, included a fingering chart.  When I received the horn, I tried to play using the fingerings in chart, and it was all over the place.  After struggling with it for some time, I decided to try trumpet fingerings and low and behold it worked.  It was explained to me many years later (by the guy who created this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3cXeo9J1T4&list=FL3rjktGL2mDM8lsvkjqi0FQ&index=30&t=0s -- one of the most awesome things I've ever seen/heard) that I must have bought a book for a horn in __ (F?) but gotten a horn in B-flat (?), and that's why the fingerings were the same.

It still all seems unnecessarily complicated, and I still don't know why they don't just write the music in the pitch that actually sounds.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Transposing Instruments
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2019, 04:53:41 PM »
I still don't know why they don't just write the music in the pitch that actually sounds.

Because then every instrument would have different fingerings.  That's what this whole discussion has been about, I thought.

By transposing the music to match the pitch of the instruments, you only have to learn one set of fingerings for each instrument.  All woodwinds are the same.  Trumpet, Cornet, French Horn, Baritone, and Tuba are all the same.  Once you've learned one, you can switch to any instrument in the same family.  I'm sorry you got the wrong book when you were in elementary school and it apparently scarred you for life, but it's definitely easier this way.  And as pointed out, if it bothers you, you can always tranpose it in your head on the fly.