Mike Portnoy's The Shattered Fortress - Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu - Live!!!

[Trav86]

I’ve never been into tribute/cover bands.

So if Ozzy was to do a set just of Sabbath songs, you'd skip it?

No. But if Bill Ward got some dudes together and did a show of Sabbath tunes, I would skip it.

[pg1067]

No I don't think they are prohibited from doing the suite, I just think they would not do it as:

1. Takes up too much time
2. The suite as a whole is too much MP and they would not want to do it

It's certainly possible that, in the legal agreement(s) made following MP's departure from the band, DT and MP agreed to refrain from playing certain songs (e.g., it's possible that DT agreed not to play the AA suite in its entirety but retained the right to play the individual songs (as they have done), and it's possible that MP agreed not to perform SFAM in its entirety but retained the right to play individual scenese (as he has done)).  We'll never know unless one of them plays something, but I doubt that DT would play the AA suite in its entirety (even if they are not contractually prohibited from doing so) for the reasons mentioned (too much time and would open a "how dare they?!" can of worms from the MP sycophants).

[cramx3]

Yea, its best DT doesn't do the AA suite.  Personally, it's not my favorite set of songs from them so I like the idea of them not dedicating so much to it.  It worked out that MP got to do it on his own terms. 

[MirrorMask]

I don't think there was a specific agreement about songs or suites. When it came out that Queensryche and Geoff Tate split and Tate legally retained the right to perform the whole of Mindcrime, I remember MP saying something like "I wish I would have done that for the AA Suite". So I don't think there's any legality that prevents either DT or Mike to perform this song or that album. Of course we'll never know for sure but gut feeling is that there's nothing like that going on.

[Setlist Scotty]

I’ve never been into tribute/cover bands.

So if Ozzy was to do a set just of Sabbath songs, you'd skip it?

No. But if Bill Ward got some dudes together and did a show of Sabbath tunes, I would skip it.

So why is Ozzy doing it not a "tribute/cover band" but MP doing it is?
 
 

I don't think there was a specific agreement about songs or suites. When it came out that Queensryche and Geoff Tate split and Tate legally retained the right to perform the whole of Mindcrime, I remember MP saying something like "I wish I would have done that for the AA Suite". So I don't think there's any legality that prevents either DT or Mike to perform this song or that album. Of course we'll never know for sure but gut feeling is that there's nothing like that going on.

I don't know what was agreed upon when the split happened, but I'm pretty sure the idea of one side or the other not playing specific songs or groups of songs was not part of the agreement, due to MP's comments (which I also remember) as MirrorMask posted.

[Podaar]

...he always kills it.

I don't disagree with that.  But I don't think you and I mean the same thing by that. 

I thought his shirt was pretty killer.

[PetFish]

Yeah, that's not what he said at all.

Of course it's not *literally* what he said but he may as well have.

Would anyone feel the same way if an instrumental, say, "Eve" was "personal" to one of them and shouldn't be played if said member was no longer part of the band?

Sure, it's MP's concept/lyrics, but the other guys have just as much invested in it and it would be a shame to just say to never play something for that same "personal" reason.

I'd only say it's different if one person wrote everything (ie. Space Dye Vest) but even then it shouldn't be 100% off limits.

[SwedishGoose]

I'd only say it's different if one person wrote everything (ie. Space Dye Vest) but even then it shouldn't be 100% off limits.

One song is quite different from a suite of songs spread out over a decade....

I don't think any song should or is of limits... was soo glad to finally hear Space Dye West live.

But with a suite of interconeccted songs about Mikes personal struggles with addiction.... thats different for all the reasons stated above

[Ben_Jamin]

I'd only say it's different if one person wrote everything (ie. Space Dye Vest) but even then it shouldn't be 100% off limits.

One song is quite different from a suite of songs spread out over a decade....

I don't think any song should or is of limits... was soo glad to finally hear Space Dye West live.

But with a suite of interconeccted songs about Mikes personal struggles with addiction.... thats different for all the reasons stated above

Same with The Best of Times. Actually, that's the only DT song where it's personal. MP chose very specific personal words and memories to use as lyrics. Old 312, Harold and Maude.

A Change of Seasons is different. It doesn't use very specific personal words. Its more poetic, allowing the listener to emerge themselves into and has a good uplifting message ending.

[bosk1]

Yeah, that's not what he said at all.

Of course it's not *literally* what he said but he may as well have.

No, not really.  What he said was qualitatively different than what you are saying.  Hence the "at all."  It isn't even close.

[gzarruk]

If there's no legal agreement on what they can or can't play (and there isn't), then nothing is off limits for the band. I agree, though, that they shouldn't play the whole suite live back to back because it takes a lot of time from the set for a group of songs that aren't really that big of a deal anyway (and they've already played 2 out of the 5 and we even have live recording versions of both). Also, while not technically off limits, playing TBOT isn't very likely to happen, but because it's a long song that doesn't do much outside of the guitar solo, and those lyrics are waaaay too specific for anyone else in the band to really connect to, I think.

[bosk1]

Right.  And nobody is saying it is "off limits."  But for the practical reasons that have been mentioned, it is extremely unlikely that it would ever be played in its entirety.  I don't think that is difficult to grasp.

[Stadler]

If there's no legal agreement on what they can or can't play (and there isn't), then nothing is off limits for the band. I agree, though, that they shouldn't play the whole suite live back to back because it takes a lot of time from the set for a group of songs that aren't really that big of a deal anyway (and they've already played 2 out of the 5 and we even have live recording versions of both). Also, while not technically off limits, playing TBOT isn't very likely to happen, but because it's a long song that doesn't do much outside of the guitar solo, and those lyrics are waaaay too specific for anyone else in the band to really connect to, I think.

Just throwing this out there; I don't think DT is going to do this, but it seems like the "personal" nature of things is more meaningful to Mike than John (I don't count James, because it's his JOB to sing other people's lyrics).  They did play "Space Dye Vest", after Mike left, after all.

But apply this elsewhere:
Queen shouldn't play "The Show Must Go On" anymore?
Kiss "Beth"?
Marillion "Script..."?  "Kayleigh"? Any of 20 other Fish songs?
Deep Purple (without Ian)/Rainbow "Smoke On The Water"?
Yes "Wonderous Stories"? 
AC/DC "Whole Lotta Rosie"?

[bosk1]

Again, none of those examples have anything to do with what anyone in this thread is even saying.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, KISS should definitely no longer sing "Beth", but not for those reasons.

[Dublagent66]

Being a Rush fan for more than 33 years, any of the 3 members performing without the other two is inconceivable.  It doesn't even factor into any equation of discussion in the context of what MP is doing.  An entirely different animal altogether.

Performing?  Performing as solo artists and incidentally doing a Rush song or two?  Or performing under the Rush name?  Alex has regularly performed in the four years since Rush ceased to exist (although I don't know whether he's performed any Rush material).  Both Geddy and Alex have said that it's likely that they'll continue their music careers and may, in fact, do things together.  Whether they incidentally include any Rush material in any live performances they may do remains to be seen, but it's never been ruled out.  Both Geddy and Alex have said emphatically that they'll never perform as Rush without Neil.

But my point remains that I'd rather see Geddy do Rush material with others than see Alex or Neil do Rush material with someone other than Geddy singing.  Similarly, I'd rather see JLB perform DT material with other than I would see MP performing DT material with others.

Ok, if those are your preferences then fine, but it doesn't make much sense and the likelihood of those scenarios actually happening are practically zero.  It's not even really worth mentioning.


"Performing?  Performing as solo artists and incidentally doing a Rush song or two?  Or performing under the Rush name?"

The answer to both is no.  The group we once knew as Rush is officially over.  None of the 3 former band members will perform any Rush songs without the other 2 there.  Simple as that.
MP performing DT songs with other musicians is something entire different and does make sense.

[Stadler]

Again, none of those examples have anything to do with what anyone in this thread is even saying.

Why do you say that?  Those are all instances of a performer either writing specifically - or owning - a song that has "personal resonance", and the remaining band members opting to perform it after the person left. Isn't that exactly what we're talking about?   

[bosk1]

Again, none of those examples have anything to do with what anyone in this thread is even saying.

Why do you say that?  Those are all instances of a performer either writing specifically - or owning - a song that has "personal resonance", and the remaining band members opting to perform it after the person left. Isn't that exactly what we're talking about?   

No, it isn't. None of the 12SS is so personal to MP that they wouldn't play them.  They've already played two after he left.  The point is simply that, as a suite, it's a huge undertaking to play it as a single piece.  Playing it live as a single piece is something personal to him--as in, he was the one who would have driven for that to happen because of the personal nature of the entire journey.  The entire band doesn't have the connection to it to want to make that happen and all that comes with it (having almost the entire show be focused solely on that suite of songs).  That is an entirely different scenario than the examples you raised.

[TAC]

Well, KISS should definitely no longer sing "Beth", but not for those reasons.

I was thinking the very same thing.



And I never realized Whole Lotta Rosie was so personal.

[Stadler]

Again, none of those examples have anything to do with what anyone in this thread is even saying.

Why do you say that?  Those are all instances of a performer either writing specifically - or owning - a song that has "personal resonance", and the remaining band members opting to perform it after the person left. Isn't that exactly what we're talking about?   

No, it isn't. None of the 12SS is so personal to MP that they wouldn't play them.  They've already played two after he left.  The point is simply that, as a suite, it's a huge undertaking to play it as a single piece.  Playing it live as a single piece is something personal to him--as in, he was the one who would have driven for that to happen because of the personal nature of the entire journey.  The entire band doesn't have the connection to it to want to make that happen and all that comes with it (having almost the entire show be focused solely on that suite of songs).  That is an entirely different scenario than the examples you raised.

I don't think fundamentally we're in disagreement.   Let me ask this: if John and Jordan said "you know what? We need a 55-minute block to transition from the first set to the second.   What say we do the "Twelve Steps Suite"?"   What's your opinion on that?  Are you for or against it?

(Mine is one of indifference; they can do what they want, they can play what they want, and I just hope it sounds good!  I think the personal nature is really only a thing for Mike, but it's not his call.)

[pg1067]

I don't think fundamentally we're in disagreement.   Let me ask this: if John and Jordan said "you know what? We need a 55-minute block to transition from the first set to the second.   What say we do the "Twelve Steps Suite"?"   What's your opinion on that?  Are you for or against it?

(Mine is one of indifference; they can do what they want, they can play what they want, and I just hope it sounds good!  I think the personal nature is really only a thing for Mike, but it's not his call.)

If this vote is open to all, I'm against it but that's only because Repentance is the worst song in the band's catalog and should never see the light of day and because TDS and TSF are just ok.  I couldn't care less about any of the other stuff.  If they really "need a 55-minute block" (which is something of an absurd premise given that 55 minutes is about the length of a full set), play TGP and all of SDOIT.

[bosk1]

Let me ask this: if John and Jordan said "you know what? We need a 55-minute block to transition from the first set to the second.   What say we do the "Twelve Steps Suite"?"   What's your opinion on that?  Are you for or against it?

I don't really have an opinion on it.  And I don't see my opinion as relevant.  The points is simply that it's incredibly unlikely to happen, that's all. 

It's cool that Mike put a band together to perform it.  And it's a historical moment, in that it's perhaps the only time the guys from Haken every got together to play music that wasn't vomit inducing.  But I don't see DT ever doing it.

[Stadler]

But to my point, you both had reasons other than "there's this unwritten law that they shouldn't do it".   That's all I'm getting at.  I don't agree on "Repentence" as a song (at least as long as the studio version of "Lines In The Sand" exists), but I do agree on the rest; it's highly unlikely.  But for reasons that don't have anything to do with the authorship or the emotion behind it. 

[EPIC Outro]

I still think we're gonna hear the 12SS and TBofT live before DT calls it a career.

[bosk1]

But to my point, you both had reasons other than "there's this unwritten law that they shouldn't do it".   That's all I'm getting at.  I don't agree on "Repentence" as a song (at least as long as the studio version of "Lines In The Sand" exists), but I do agree on the rest; it's highly unlikely.  But for reasons that don't have anything to do with the authorship or the emotion behind it. 

Does it directly have to do with the authorship?  No.  And that entirely misses the point.  Does it indirectly have to do with the authorship and meaning of the entire suite?  Indisputably, yes.  That isn't the only factor.  But it is a big one that works hand-in-hand with at least one other big factor.  The band isn't likely interested in playing a piece that would take almost its entire set when the subject matter of that suite is very personal to a former member.  It isn't personal to them at all.  If we were just talking about a song, it would be a different story.  But we aren't.  We are talking about what would basically be the centerpiece of the entire show.

[pg1067]

I still think we're gonna hear the 12SS and TBofT live before DT calls it a career.

I sure as heck hope not.

[cramx3]

I still think we're gonna hear the 12SS and TBofT live before DT calls it a career.

I sure as heck hope not.

I doubt DT ever does the 12SS, I can see TBofT ONLY if they somehow come to terms with MP and he gets to perform this song at the last ever DT show.  I can actually see that happen, even with MP's antics, because I think the band could allow something like that just once for the fans as DT has always been the bigger man since the break up.  But 12SS I really can't see any reason for DT to ever play it as a whole at this point.  There's no need and the fans don't want it generally.  They should however bring back TGP, that song is very high on what DT fans want to see played again. 

[MirrorMask]

I agree with cramx3. It's very unlikely they're gonna perform the whole suite. I think we'll get in the future The Glass Prison (fan favorite) and The Root of Alll Evil (relatively short and not mindblowingly difficult). I think that The Shattered Fortress was played just for the sake of being completists, and now that they've done it, they won't go back to it again. Repentance was played only twice or so to begin with, can't see it ever coming back, and I don't know about This Dying Soul, that might come back but I don't think they're crazy at the idea of going for such an extreme piece that requires also a lot of backing vocals.

[cramx3]

I agree with cramx3. It's very unlikely they're gonna perform the whole suite. I think we'll get in the future The Glass Prison (fan favorite) and The Root of Alll Evil (relatively short and not mindblowingly difficult). I think that The Shattered Fortress was played just for the sake of being completists, and now that they've done it, they won't go back to it again. Repentance was played only twice or so to begin with, can't see it ever coming back, and I don't know about This Dying Soul, that might come back but I don't think they're crazy at the idea of going for such an extreme piece that requires also a lot of backing vocals.

Yea, I also agree with this on those songs.  The Root of All Evil was already played by MM too.  I think that and TGP are the fan favorites from the suite and most likely to come back.  TDS is too long and not generally liked well enough to earn the set time IMO, but having never seen it myself, I'm not against its inclusion but I'm not asking for it either.  I've seen the one time performance of Repentance and I am good there.

[bosk1]

Without beating a dead horse, it should be obvious to most that, all things being equal, it is extremely unlikely that the band would ever play it.  But as we all know, all things are not always equal.  There could be circumstances at some point in time where the band elects to do it.  Personally, I think the only scenario I see that makes it likely is, if at some point in the future, DT and MP found themselves both booked at something like a cruise, they could reunite and do it as a one-off for an extended set on the cruise.  Or if they felt there was enough fan demand where they decided to reunite for a one-off gig or VERY small string of shows to do it.  Or if MP ever rejoined at some point in the distant future and they decided to do a one-off gig or VERY small string of shows to do it.  But I'm not holding my breath for any of those scenarios.  I think option #1 is the most likely of those, and I wouldn't have a problem with that as a fan.  I wouldn't have a problem with option #2 either, but I think it is probably the least likely just because of the "demand" issue.  I think demand, as a whole across the fanbase, isn't very high.  And a lot of what demand there might have been went away once MP performed it with TSF.  Personally, I wouldn't want option #3 at all.  I don't want MP back in DT.  And as of right now, I think there is next to zero likelihood of that happening.  But I have to acknowledge that feelings change, and we have no idea what might happen in the future that could bring MP and the band back together again.  So while I am VERY comfortable saying that it is HIGHLY unlikely, there's always a possibility. 

As for it being played at all, I still hold the position I have always held on that:  It would be cool to have it done as a one-off and documented.  Personally, I wouldn't want to be at that show, because I wouldn't want to sit through the entire thing in a live setting.  But I wouldn't hesitate to buy it, and would enjoy watching it.  It's a cool concept, and even if it may meander and feel a bit bloated and repetitive as an entire piece, it's still a cool concept with a lot of really great music.  At one point, I had a fan edit where somebody had edited it all together and created a transition or two where needed, and it was a fun listen.  But it wasn't something I would listen to on a regular basis either.  It was a fun occasional listen. 

[cramx3]

Seems Kiss is reaching out to their former members for their final show.  Something like that just wouldn't surprise me here.  It seems like the one case where maybe everyone can agree, it's best for the fans and brand to reunite for one final time.  The Black Crowes just reunited.  We see this happen a lot in the music business.  I don't see a huge demand for MP to make a real return, DT just isn't that popular, but I do think if they had a planned final show, that's the one time where I can totally see MP come back and even DS, CD, and probably the best chance of KM returning (although I think that is doubtful). 

[gzarruk]

Seems Kiss is reaching out to their former members for their final show.  Something like that just wouldn't surprise me here.  It seems like the one case where maybe everyone can agree, it's best for the fans and brand to reunite for one final time.  The Black Crowes just reunited.  We see this happen a lot in the music business.  I don't see a huge demand for MP to make a real return, DT just isn't that popular, but I do think if they had a planned final show, that's the one time where I can totally see MP come back and even DS, CD, and probably the best chance of KM returning (although I think that is doubtful). 

Charlie would be so old at that point that he wouldn't make it either

[Ben_Jamin]

I would love to see MP come back for their final show. With him playing some songs, maybe some with Mangini. The Encore would be The Best of Times.

[bosk1]

It would be hard to come up with a less interesting encore.

[cramx3]

It would be hard to come up with a less interesting encore.

Yea, I don't think it would be a good encore either.  Definitely not worthy of that, but mid set change of pace after a few heavy songs could work.  And then maybe like Metropolis with him and MM for the encore or something.  Like how they've done Metropolis with two keyboards or two guitars before wiht guests, but with two drums.