Mike Portnoy's The Shattered Fortress - Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu - Live!!!

[MarkFitDT]

I would love to see MP come back for their final show. With him playing some songs, maybe some with Mangini. The Encore would be The Best of Times.

wow, what a damp squib that would be. All the quality music that DT have made over the years and they end with that.

[bosk1]

I have no idea what a "damp squib" is.  But based on the rest of your statement, I think I agree with you. 

[SwedishGoose]

It would be hard to come up with a less interesting encore.

Yea, I don't think it would be a good encore either.  Definitely not worthy of that, but mid set change of pace after a few heavy songs could work.  And then maybe like Metropolis with him and MM for the encore or something.  Like how they've done Metropolis with two keyboards or two guitars before wiht guests, but with two drums.

Yeah  mid set would be much better placed, would give me a chance to go to the bar for a while 

[MarkFitDT]

I have no idea what a "damp squib" is.  But based on the rest of your statement, I think I agree with you. 

lol, sorry Bosk, its a phrase used over here in the Uk and because we speak the same language you assume that we all use the same phrases!

Damp Squib :- a situation or event which is much less impressive than expected.

[cramx3]

learn something new everyday 

[bosk1]

That's a bit less colorful than I was imagining, but I'll go with it. 

[Trav86]

Outside of this forum, The Best of Times seems to be a really popular song. In fact, Black Clouds seems to be really popular as well. With the “youngsters” that is.

[pg1067]

It would be hard to come up with a less interesting encore.

Repentance (although it's close, and I'd be tempted to leave early in either case).

wow, what a damp squib that would be. All the quality music that DT have made over the years and they end with that.

I've never heard that term, but it sounds like an excellent description.

Yeah  mid set would be much better placed, would give me a chance to go to the bar for a while 

Ditto.

[Ben_Jamin]

It would be hard to come up with a less interesting encore.

Yea, I don't think it would be a good encore either.  Definitely not worthy of that, but mid set change of pace after a few heavy songs could work.  And then maybe like Metropolis with him and MM for the encore or something.  Like how they've done Metropolis with two keyboards or two guitars before wiht guests, but with two drums.

Having a song Mangini would end the set, then having Encore 1 be The Best of Times with Mike Portnoy on Drums, 2nd Encore Metropolis w/ Mangini and Portnoy on Drums.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Am I the only one that thinks that the 12SS as a whole is slightly overrated? Let me explain:

I really like most of the songs on their own. The Glass Prison is easily top 15 DT material, This Dying Soul is fun, I was obsessed with Root for almost the whole Octavarium tour cycle, Repentance is OK but a tad long and The Shattered Fortress feels like a fun medley of all previous songs; but as a whole I kinda get tired because it's too darn long and there are lots of things happening. I couldn't catch MP playing the 12SS with Haken, and I'm aware that those who went to the show were very pleased with the outcome of hearing the whole thing live from beginning to end, but I feel that DT has way better long suites and pieces to fill up a set.

I really don't feel like the songs in the 12SS (except The Glass Prison) are amongst DT's best work, so hearing them in context is probably pretty cool but as a one time thing. As I stated earlier, I missed the Portnoy show but even though I still consider myself as a DT die-hard I really don't have the urge of hearing the actual DT perform the whole thing, even if the impossible happens (MP and DT getting back together for a one-off show or something; which is also something I'm not really looking forward to).

I'd rather get a full Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence instead any day of the week.

And also, on a slightly not related note, I'm kinda tired of hearing #MPWarriors and people in general saying that MP wrote the songs. I'm well aware of the song culture and of the attribution of creativity to whoever penned the lyrics to the song in question, but that undermines the other 4 guys who were as key in the composition of the pieces as much as MP was. True, the songs are clearly more personal to MP than to the other guys, but that's a whole other story.

[gzarruk]

Am I the only one that things that the 12SS as a whole is slightly overrated? Let me explain:

I really like most of the songs on their own. The Glass Prison is easily top 15 DT material, This Dying Soul is fun, I was obsessed with Root for almost the whole Octavarium tour cycle, Repentance is OK but a tad long and The Shattered Fortress feels like a fun medley of all previous songs; but as a whole I kinda get tired because it's too darn long and there are lots of things happening. I couldn't catch MP playing the 12SS with Haken, and I'm aware that those who went to the show were very pleased with the outcome of hearing the whole thing live from beginning to end, but I feel that DT has way better long suites and pieces to fill up a set.

I really don't feel like the songs in the 12SS (except The Glass Prison) are amongst DT's best work, so hearing them in context is probably pretty cool but as a one time thing. As I stated earlier, I missed the Portnoy show but even though I still consider myself as a DT die-hard I really don't have the urge of hearing the actual DT perform the whole thing, even if the impossible happens (MP and DT getting back together for a one-off show or something; which is also something I'm not really looking forward to).

I'd rather get a full Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence instead any day of the week.

And also, on a slightly not related note, I'm kinda tired of hearing #MPWarriors and people in general saying that MP wrote the songs. I'm well aware of the song culture and of the attribution of creativity to whoever penned the lyrics to the song in question, but that undermines the other 4 guys who were as key in the composition of the pieces as much as MP was. True, the songs are clearly more personal to MP than to the other guys, but that's a whole other story.

to seeing SDOIT (the song) in full instead of the 12SS. The songs from the suite might be good on their own, but all of them together don’t make a very interesting or balanced set really.

About MP “writing” the songs, well, it doesn’t help when the man himself says “these are very important songs that I wrote” or things like that. He’s not even a proper songwriter to begin with, he’s an arranger (very good at it, btw), and those concepts are very different.

[KevShmev]

I am not sure "overrated" is the right word to describe the 12-step suite, since it doesn't seem like that many fans rate it highly as a whole, but when taking it as a whole, I don't think it stands out when looking at the band's history.  The lyrics, in retrospect, seem odd as well, since it would appear he didn't learn much from them despite writing them.  "Kindness, it's not that hard..."

I would agree that arranging is probably his biggest asset when it comes to songwriting (Neal Morse has basically said that, which is good enough for me).  He's not a guy who can sit down and write an entire song on his own, lyrics and melodies and music and all, but aside from ones who were lead singers (like Don Henley and Phil Collins), what drummers are?  Probably very few.

[Volante99]

This is anecdotal but I would disagree with the 12-Step Suite being overrated (at least on the forum). Maybe it was highly regarded at one point but feel like most of the time I see it come up on this forum it is in a negative light (with the exception of The Glass Prison, of course).

I’m somewhere in the middle; I think the entire concept is brilliant, a great achievement, and shining example of what I think makes prog music so special. It’s definitely a highlight for DT and Portnoy’s “legacy” with the band. The individual songs are all standouts (with Repentance maybe being the weakest link). That said, I think the songs work better spread out across albums rather than a single collective piece. Taken all at once it’s too overbearing, too long, and too repetitive, too much of everything.

[MirrorMask]

Taken all at once it’s too overbearing, too long, and too repetitive, too much of everything.

I agree with this, it got out of hand. The concept itself was cool and very innovative - having a giant, monster song spread out throughout more albums. But as you said, the songs were too long, a bit too repetetive, and they took too many albums.

Maybe four 7-8 minutes songs over 4 albums would have made for a nice 30-ish suite, but taking 5 albums for 55 or so minutes of music, of which 45 are fast and heavy, is a bit overkill.

Also, since the whole point of the suite was playing it all together, I'm a bit bummed that they kept the pause (provided by the intro) between This Dying Soul and The Root of all Evil. I get it, I really do, that you can't have a musician pass out on stage by playing 30 minutes straight of fast and complex music, but since it's so evident that the end of This Dying Soul ties perfectly in with the "real" start of Root, taking a break by having the intro of Root play out defies the whole purpouse. Half of the fun in the suite was to realize how the songs would tie in together (see how they went from the end of The Glass Prison into This Dying Soul during live shows).

[Evai]

It's hard for me to connect the songs together in my mind. Like, Root Of All Evil ends with a reference to The Answer Lies Within, plus it's called the ROOT of all evil. I wouldn't want to listen to it outside of Octavarium.

[Trav86]

I am not sure "overrated" is the right word to describe the 12-step suite, since it doesn't seem like that many fans rate it highly as a whole, but when taking it as a whole, I don't think it stands out when looking at the band's history.  The lyrics, in retrospect, seem odd as well, since it would appear he didn't learn much from them despite writing them.  "Kindness, it's not that hard..."

I would agree that arranging is probably his biggest asset when it comes to songwriting (Neal Morse has basically said that, which is good enough for me).  He's not a guy who can sit down and write an entire song on his own, lyrics and melodies and music and all, but aside from ones who were lead singers (like Don Henley and Phil Collins), what drummers are?  Probably very few.

All of this. Plus, I think Portnoy is the only person who thinks of it as something special.

[pg1067]

I don't think the 12SS is "overrated" because I've never seen any evidence that would lead me to believe it (as a whole) is held in high regard by much of anyone (other than MP).  As far as MP or anyone else saying that "MP wrote the songs," it doesn't bother me because it's obvious that this is a reference only to who wrote the lyrics, and pretty much everyone who knows anything about DT knows that writing the music is a collaborative process (which, in the case of 40% of the 12SS songs, includes JLB).

I also wholeheartedly agree with almost everything that Kev wrote.

[gmillerdrake]

everyone who knows anything about DT knows that writing the music is a collaborative process

It's my understanding from the various interviews and articles that JP and JR write the majority of the actual 'music'. Then, from there it may be refined by other members but it's really those two who drive the 'music' aspect. Arrangements and 'add ons' to their template may happen....but I believe it's those two who essentially 'are' DT's sound and have been for quite some time.

[Volante99]

everyone who knows anything about DT knows that writing the music is a collaborative process

It's my understanding from the various interviews and articles that JP and JR write the majority of the actual 'music'. Then, from there it may be refined by other members but it's really those two who drive the 'music' aspect. Arrangements and 'add ons' to their template may happen....but I believe it's those two who essentially 'are' DT's sound and have been for quite some time.

I think this is true on most albums. I believe on ToT and D/T it was fairly collaborative. I don’t know if this is how it works with DT but many times a musical/song idea CAN start with drum beat. So while I think it’s wrong for MP to take full credit for a piece of music, and definitely getting into a grey area when he says he “wrote X song” I wouldn’t completely write off a drummer’s role in writing music or considering themselves songwriters. Especially if that drummer is also arranging, writing the lyrics, and (possibly?) vocal melodies.

[Setlist Scotty]

I wouldn’t completely write off a drummer’s role in writing music or considering themselves songwriters. Especially if that drummer is also arranging, writing the lyrics, and (possibly?) vocal melodies.

Hey definitely created the vocal melodies for each song he wrote the lyrics to, and he also has had a hand in the actual riffs and melodies used in DT songs, altho not to the same degree as JP and JR.

[MirrorMask]

I wouldn’t completely write off a drummer’s role in writing music or considering themselves songwriters. Especially if that drummer is also arranging, writing the lyrics, and (possibly?) vocal melodies.

Hey definitely created the vocal melodies for each song he wrote the lyrics to, and he also has had a hand in the actual riffs and melodies used in DT songs, altho not to the same degree as JP and JR.

I would assume he - or any other drummer or non-guitarist - would be able to say something like "Hey, what about with this rhytm you do something like drrrr, drrrrr, dah dah dah drrrrr", with the guitarist translating it onto the guitar and saying "ah, you mean maybe like this?" and putting down a riff.

For example, the intro to The Mirror is relatively simple, I can imagine a non-guitarist coming up with that and humming it.

[Setlist Scotty]

I wouldn’t completely write off a drummer’s role in writing music or considering themselves songwriters. Especially if that drummer is also arranging, writing the lyrics, and (possibly?) vocal melodies.

Hey definitely created the vocal melodies for each song he wrote the lyrics to, and he also has had a hand in the actual riffs and melodies used in DT songs, altho not to the same degree as JP and JR.

I would assume he - or any other drummer or non-guitarist - would be able to say something like "Hey, what about with this rhytm you do something like drrrr, drrrrr, dah dah dah drrrrr", with the guitarist translating it onto the guitar and saying "ah, you mean maybe like this?" and putting down a riff.

For example, the intro to The Mirror is relatively simple, I can imagine a non-guitarist coming up with that and humming it.

I actually have an MP3 he sent me of him humming the opening riff to what became A Rite of Passage into his phone. And I believe he also had a hand in coming up with the intro to UaGM - I read something to that effect in a super old interview. I'm sure there's plenty more that have never been specifically ID'd.

[Volante99]

I wouldn’t completely write off a drummer’s role in writing music or considering themselves songwriters. Especially if that drummer is also arranging, writing the lyrics, and (possibly?) vocal melodies.

Hey definitely created the vocal melodies for each song he wrote the lyrics to, and he also has had a hand in the actual riffs and melodies used in DT songs, altho not to the same degree as JP and JR.

I would assume he - or any other drummer or non-guitarist - would be able to say something like "Hey, what about with this rhytm you do something like drrrr, drrrrr, dah dah dah drrrrr", with the guitarist translating it onto the guitar and saying "ah, you mean maybe like this?" and putting down a riff.

For example, the intro to The Mirror is relatively simple, I can imagine a non-guitarist coming up with that and humming it.

As a guitarist I'd also point out that (for me) it's MUCH easier coming up with kick ass riffs when you have a drummer laying down sick beats/patterns. Instruments feed off each other. This is how 5 virtuosos can get in a cabin together and crank out an album's worth of material in less than 3 weeks.

[bosk1]

@Scott:  even beyond just humming, is he able to actually do some basic composing on bass, guitar, or keyboard/piano?  I am under the impression that he can.  But that is largely speculation on my part.  Do you know?

[TAC]

I would never even try to depreciate MP's role in creating Dream Theater's music. I don't think you can, honestly.

[utopiarun]

I would love to see MP come back for their final show. With him playing some songs, maybe some with Mangini. The Encore would be The Best of Times.

wow, what a damp squib that would be. All the quality music that DT have made over the years and they end with that.

It's not that bad of a song. Is it great? No, but the guitar solo at the end is absolutely amazing!

[Setlist Scotty]

@Scott:  even beyond just humming, is he able to actually do some basic composing on bass, guitar, or keyboard/piano?  I am under the impression that he can.  But that is largely speculation on my part.  Do you know?

Can't say for certain, but I would imagine he could do something basic on guitar or bass, given that he played bass in Nightmare Cinema and played VH's Eruption on JP's guitar occasionally. I have no idea regarding his ability to play keys.

[Stadler]

I wouldn’t completely write off a drummer’s role in writing music or considering themselves songwriters. Especially if that drummer is also arranging, writing the lyrics, and (possibly?) vocal melodies.

Hey definitely created the vocal melodies for each song he wrote the lyrics to, and he also has had a hand in the actual riffs and melodies used in DT songs, altho not to the same degree as JP and JR.

I would assume he - or any other drummer or non-guitarist - would be able to say something like "Hey, what about with this rhytm you do something like drrrr, drrrrr, dah dah dah drrrrr", with the guitarist translating it onto the guitar and saying "ah, you mean maybe like this?" and putting down a riff.

For example, the intro to The Mirror is relatively simple, I can imagine a non-guitarist coming up with that and humming it.

"Coming up with it" and "playing it" are very different things.  Especially for someone that has a master-level proficiency on another instrument.   I don't think only the "simple" riffs ought to be considered for Mike's writing, even if he can't play them or communicate them other than through vocalizing.  I can absolutely envision him sitting at a drum set and playing sick beats and imagining a guitar line or keyboard line over top that is of some complexity.

I do play guitar (admittedly at a basic level) but I occasionally come up with stuff I can't even remotely play, and not just for guitar.   I don't have a band, or a partner-in-crime that can translate that to an instrument, so it floats back to the ether (and that's even assuming it's good enough to survive to begin with) but if he can articulate it out to another member of whatever band he's in...