Vaping

[Harmony]

Recent incidents of severe illness and some deaths have been attributed to vaping/e-cig use.  The CDC* is advising people to stop using these products and several states and local jurisdictions have already or are in the process of placing temporary or permanent bans on the sale of these products until more is known.  What are your thoughts on the use of these products?

*https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/severe-lung-disease.html

[El Barto]

No ban. Regulation. On the tabacky side it's way too useful in helping people to quit smoking. On the grass side it's a pleasant and discrete way to cop a buzz. The problem is simply that it's the wild West out there and there's no way of knowing what you're inhaling. E-cig makers will put anything they want in there to cut costs and increase addiction. Stoners will do what they can to cut costs, as well. Last I checked butane is still the cheapest, easiest way to extract hash oil. (My hunch is that butane's what's getting people right now.) Create an environment where people know what they're inhaling and the problem goes away.

Also, on a side note the idea that flavored e-cigs are encouraging kids to vape pisses me off. Kid's don't vape because it tastes like watermelon, or smoke because it tastes like menthol. They do these things for the same reason they do every other thing. It's cool. I hate being represented by fucking dinosaurs with no idea how humans actually work. 

[Ben_Jamin]

I don't care either way as I don't really use them much.

Although I guarantee those deaths are likely because they used them quite frequently enough to become a habit.

The E-Cigs have a weird taste that I don't like, Its like inhaling flavored air.

The Vape Pens are more thicker and tend to leak a lot. I've had some that would leak from the inhale hole also getting clogged. After a while, I could feel that thickness from the oil smoke and would stop.

Honestly all natural is the way to go.

[TAC]

Massachusetts has a 4 month temp ban, so they can get more info. I'm sure once they figure out HOW vaping is killing people, they'll allow it, but until then...

Bart, I'm with you on the flavored thing. If they really want to induce kids, they should taste like Marlboros.

[cramx3]

It needs to be regulated.  For one, the idea that its a big issue is a bit odd.  26 deaths I think now.  Not that it's meaningless, but that's a very low percentage and low number overall if you want to compare it to say cigarettes and deaths.  Not the point though.  The issue seems to actually be specifically pointing to illegal THC carts, not your ecigs and your average vapes.  Also not your legal THC carts you get in a store in a legal state.  While no one has any true data to pin point it, my understanding is that it's shit carts likely from China that are filled with Vitamin E to dilute the THC and make more money off you. 

Now, banning them is only going to increase this black market and make people buy from illegitimate sources. The government just needs to legalize and regulate and no one would buy a sketchy product.  It would be fairly safe.  I don't know if Vaping in general is "safe" I kind of doubt it, but it's not as bad as tobacco and it's helped many kick the tobacco.  People have been vaping for a really really long time, this is a new thing not based on long term usage.

[PetFish]

Fuck vaping.

I never had any doubt. I'm 100% positive that my daughter would stay away from cigarettes. I wasn't worried about it at all. Smoking cigarettes is well on its way to being eliminated.

Then came vaping and now I have to worry about my child taking it up.  If she wants to try marijuana at some point? Sure. Alcohol? Of course. Heroin? No, don't be stupid.

Regulating vaping won't work cuz you still see fucking idiot kids smoking cigarettes so if they can get those so easily then they can get vaping stuff just as easily.

You also look like fucking jackasses when you're doing it and stinking up a 20m range around you that everyone has to deal with.

        

[Cool Chris]

Smoking cigarettes is well on its way to being eliminated.

Are there statistics to back that up? Curious as I have not researched. Or is it more a gut feeling?

I don't have many thoughts about vaping that steer clear of P/R as I've never vaped, nor do I have any interest to. I will say the speed at which my local and state (WA) gov'ts have jumped on banning flavored e-cigs is baffling considering how many years rampant vagrancy, crime, and opioid use have been getting worse, which the politicians seem either incapable or unwilling to address.

And also:

I hate being represented by fucking dinosaurs with no idea how humans actually work. 

[lonestar]

Back when I still smoked, I tried vaping to quit. Lasted about 5 days, but the 'smoke' is different, and was identical to the way a meth pipe feels when hit. It was way too triggering for me so I went back to cigs.

As to the OP, I think there should be regulation of the product so that shitty stuff isn't getting out that can kill. As Barto said, it's the wild west as to where the product is coming from, especially on the thc side of it. Who the fuck even knows what's going in there, so no wonder someone ended up dying from shitty product. Same reason booze production needs to be regulated so fuckers don't go blind from shitty bathtub gin.

[ReaperKK]

No ban. Regulation. On the tabacky side it's way too useful in helping people to quit smoking. On the grass side it's a pleasant and discrete way to cop a buzz. The problem is simply that it's the wild West out there and there's no way of knowing what you're inhaling. E-cig makers will put anything they want in there to cut costs and increase addiction. Stoners will do what they can to cut costs, as well. Last I checked butane is still the cheapest, easiest way to extract hash oil. (My hunch is that butane's what's getting people right now.) Create an environment where people know what they're inhaling and the problem goes away. 

Barto you summed up my feelings pretty well.

[TioJorge]

I smoked cigarettes when I was a rebellious teen for about two days and found it disgusting, even too much to be one of the cool kids. When I was detoxing from alcohol, I smoked for a couple weeks, then tried vaping. Found out the hard way that I'm extremely sensitive to tobacco and nicotine especially (have had black outs/pass outs from smoking shisha from a hookah) and got super light headed and..I can't remember the word for it even after a quick Googling, where you feel light headed due to not as much blood flow to the brain, but anyway, apparently it's somewhat common when using tobacco/nicotine and I'm very much on the more severe end of that considering if I inhale just a few cigarette puffs these days, I'm sick to my stomach.

That said, I hated vaping even when it was seen as the "good guy" to the cigarette addiction epidemic and now hate it even more considering the ad campaigns towards teens and younger, and the deaths that came from them. All of those companies and the greed bound individuals pushing them should have very bad things happen to them. But hey, even if it was purely motivated by a backtracking and ass covering action, when the head of Juul says "don't use my product", you know shit just hit the fan.

[cramx3]

I should add that I am not a fan of Juuls.  I understand why someone would choose to vape instead of smoke cigarettes, but I don't understand why someone who never smoked would want to vape a nicotine product.  However, I don't believe Juuls are the culprits for the deaths.

[Herrick]

Disagree with any ban. Just a knee-jerk reaction by the gubment and it's fucking laughable when cigs & alcohol are legal. If there's a real ban (I haven't kept up with the news) the cigarette companies would love it. Now the poor defenseless children can just stick with smoking if vape products are too difficult to get a hold of. Ka-Chiiiiing!

[Harmony]

Big tobacco is already invested in e-cigs.  I believe Phillip Morris owns about 35% in Juul, for example.

I have friends who have quit smoking by using e-cigs, so I understand that they have their place in reduction of smoking-related illness.  I also have no problems with people wanting to use vape pens for THC.  But something is happening and it isn't just "hype".  The average age of the seriously ill has been 19.  19 year olds simply do not get hospitalized with acute respiratory distress unless they have an underlying chronic problem like asthma and wind up with the flu or pneumonia or something. 

I'm also alarmed that thus far no one seems able to trace a common product.  It begs the question, is this really new or is it just newly detected?  Could there have been previous cases that went unreported simply because nobody had yet linked the cause?

I hadn't thought about butane - which if I understand it correctly is related to dabs vs. cartridges.  From what I've been reading, cram has it right that they suspect Vit E additives.  Are these being added at initial production or are cartridges being tampered with much in the same way that drugs like cocaine are stepped on down the line?  I have heard of some cases where products that supposedly caused illness had been purchased at legit legal dispensaries so do these owners not realize they are selling tainted products or are they looking to make more money by purchasing these products?

And why aren't they heavily regulated already?  Respiratory specialist physicians I've spoken with over the years have never believed vaping was "safe".  The American Lung Association has always recommended not using e-cigs.  I've known for years that many of the flavored e-juices are manufactured in China.  Can we trust that (I'm thinking of the pets who've died after ingesting Chinese products and infant deaths from formula produced there)?

I dunno.  I think until a lot more is known, I agree with at least a temporary ban just out of an abundance of caution.  When salad mix makes people sick with eColi, they get pulled from the shelves for a time.

And it isn't lost on me that we are talking about what seems like only a handful of deaths (so far) especially in comparison to cigarette and alcohol related deaths.  But 1300 serious respiratory illness since just last spring with a median age of victim 19?  That seems like something that warrants further investigation at the very least.

[Ben_Jamin]

As I said as well. You have to be using those a lot though, and even then I could feel it after a few myself and stop.

[Herrick]

Big tobacco is already invested in e-cigs.  I believe Phillip Morris owns about 35% in Juul, for example.

I have friends who have quit smoking by using e-cigs, so I understand that they have their place in reduction of smoking-related illness.  I also have no problems with people wanting to use vape pens for THC.  But something is happening and it isn't just "hype".  The average age of the seriously ill has been 19.  19 year olds simply do not get hospitalized with acute respiratory distress unless they have an underlying chronic problem like asthma and wind up with the flu or pneumonia or something. 

Agreed it isn't just media-generated hysteria and it warrants serious investigation but I think the various bans are overkill, no pun intended. The overwhelming majority of vapers are not experiencing whatever this illness is. And it looks like the majority of people getting sick are vaping stuff with THC. Whatever is harming them, I doubt they're buying it from legitimate websites & vape shops, meaning they can still buy this stuff from whatever illicit sources (black market) they've been using.

It's illegal for people under 21 to use these products but they've been using them anyway. Now people are calling for a ban on the non-tobacco flavored stuff but people are still going to get their hands on the fruity flavors, just like they've been getting their hands on weed & booze.

I only use tobacco flavor so I'm safe (from the Ban Hammer) for now. I just hope the youngins don't go for tobacco flavors if they can't get a hold of the fruitier stuff. There are some very sweet tobacco flavors out there.

[El Barto]

I should add that I am not a fan of Juuls.  I understand why someone would choose to vape instead of smoke cigarettes, but I don't understand why someone who never smoked would want to vape a nicotine product.  However, I don't believe Juuls are the culprits for the deaths.

To look like they're trying to kick a 2 pack a day smoking habit. Or perhaps so they can cut loose a giant cloud of smoke whenever they say something halfway profound, Hemingway style. I've come to realize that a lot of people smoke just for the affectation.

[SystematicThought]

Just saw on Facebook that one of my friends from high school passed away this morning from complications related to vaping. I haven't seen him since high school, but it's still incredibly sad. I was his sound guy for chapel, and he was always super easy to work with. RIP my friend. He posted last week how he was just released from the hospital after a week's stay with chemical burns on his lungs.

In that same post and after what he went through, he said he's a strong proponent now of regulating vaping. He paid for it with his life, so I'd have to agree with his stance that it should be a regulated business.

[TAC]

That's really sad, man.

[cramx3]

Thats so sad and Im sorry for your loss Systematic, do you have any more details on his vaping though?

[SystematicThought]

According to his post, he used THC and CBD cartridges. I don’t really know what that means, and I don’t know where he was getting them from. I assume the CBD ones are attained legally, while the THC ones may be harder to get? At least here in, MN, it’s still illegal. I use CBD for pain management and sleep, not through vaping, but pills. So I’d assume you could buy CBD cartridges pretty readily.

[Herrick]

Sorry to hear about your friend

[cramx3]

According to his post, he used THC and CBD cartridges. I don’t really know what that means, and I don’t know where he was getting them from. I assume the CBD ones are attained legally, while the THC ones may be harder to get? At least here in, MN, it’s still illegal. I use CBD for pain management and sleep, not through vaping, but pills. So I’d assume you could buy CBD cartridges pretty readily.

Makes me think an illegel THC cart is to blame, so sad and ridiculous when you think about it.  Im not sure CBD vaping or otherwise has been attributed to death. This can be prevented.

[SystematicThought]

Yeah, that’s what I suspected, it being an illegal cartridge. Sad and preventable, you’re right. It started off as pneumonia, then they found the chemical burns, thought he was getting better, they told him a year to recover, now this. So sad.

He was a talented guy and known in the Minneapolis music scene. One of my favorite local bands, Porno Wolves, opened up for him at First Avenue last year. Here’s one of his songs, he’s Evhen, the lead singer.
https://youtu.be/U3tkRqFLC4A

[Nekov]

Hm, I think this is a complex situation which may have some political aspect which I don't want to get into.

But from a personal experience, I smoked tobacco for a long time and I decided to use vaping as a tool to quit. I started by reducing the amount of cigarettes I smoked, leaving just 2 or 3 a day and then vaping if I felt I needed more. Then I quit tobacco all together and stuck with the vaping for a couple of months, slowly reducing the nicotine dose until I was able to quit for good. In that regard, I think it is a good product if used carefully and if it is properly regulated to make sure that it is "safe".

[Stadler]

I should add that I am not a fan of Juuls.  I understand why someone would choose to vape instead of smoke cigarettes, but I don't understand why someone who never smoked would want to vape a nicotine product.  However, I don't believe Juuls are the culprits for the deaths.

To look like they're trying to kick a 2 pack a day smoking habit. Or perhaps so they can cut loose a giant cloud of smoke whenever they say something halfway profound, Hemingway style. I've come to realize that a lot of people smoke just for the affectation.

I'm not a smoker; I may have consumed two packs total in my 39 years on the planet, but I will tell you this: some of you know I lived in Philly - in the City - and I miss it like I miss my youth.   I would move back there this afternoon if I could (fam) and one of the very best things was being in a bar, taking a smoke break, and going out and standing on the sidewalk having a cigarette.   I like the smell of freshly burning cigarettes, and standing around - not so much "looking cool" as just having a reason to stand around on the sidewalk and socialize - is a real thing, that I sort of equate with what El Barto says about "Hemingway style".   I didn't smoke, so I would go out and stand, and occasionally bum a tug off someone else's - also a good social move depending on the situation - but it was an appealing aspect of the environment to me.

Anti-ban, pro-more knowledge, pro-regulation.   I don't quite get the constant references to "alcohol and cigarettes"; they seem a tad opportunistic; let's start using those comparisons for other things, then, no?  But providing information to people to allow them to make their bad decisions with intent is sort of the minimum bar for me. 

Can anyone explain how e-cigs help quit smoking? I thought the research was sort of inconclusive on that point?

[El Barto]

Can anyone explain how e-cigs help quit smoking? I thought the research was sort of inconclusive on that point?

If you're actually addicted to nicotine it allows you to taper down. You can buy E-juice with varying amounts of nicotine in it and gradually decrease your intake. It's not dissimilar to nicotine gum, but far less nasty (and expensive--yeah capitalism!). I know a few people who quit this way, and I've talked to plenty more. It won't work for all, but it very definitely works for many.

[El Barto]

I'm not a smoker; I may have consumed two packs total in my 39 years on the planet, but I will tell you this: some of you know I lived in Philly - in the City - and I miss it like I miss my youth.   I would move back there this afternoon if I could (fam) and one of the very best things was being in a bar, taking a smoke break, and going out and standing on the sidewalk having a cigarette.   I like the smell of freshly burning cigarettes, and standing around - not so much "looking cool" as just having a reason to stand around on the sidewalk and socialize - is a real thing, that I sort of equate with what El Barto says about "Hemingway style".   I didn't smoke, so I would go out and stand, and occasionally bum a tug off someone else's - also a good social move depending on the situation - but it was an appealing aspect of the environment to me.

My brother broke his back a long while ago and spend six weeks in the hospital. If you ever need an excuse to quit smoking there you go. The first thing he did when he got out was buy a pack. For him it is that affectation. His FB profile picture was an outdoor table at a dive bar with a glass of beer, a burning Camel filterless, and whatever novel he was reading.

And as you said there's definitely a social aspect to it which I do miss. Once they made smoker go stand on the sidewalk it created a clique of sorts. Now you were part of the bad-boy set. There's some appeal to that.

[cramx3]

Can anyone explain how e-cigs help quit smoking? I thought the research was sort of inconclusive on that point?

If you're actually addicted to nicotine it allows you to taper down. You can buy E-juice with varying amounts of nicotine in it and gradually decrease your intake. It's not dissimilar to nicotine gum, but far less nasty (and expensive--yeah capitalism!). I know a few people who quit this way, and I've talked to plenty more. It won't work for all, but it very definitely works for many.

I know people who have quit smoking thanks to vaping.  My parents friend must have been one of the first as he's been vaping for I think 12 years now (I spoke to him about it like 5 months ago, he was one of the first to buy vape products to get off cigarettes).  Funny how he is relatively healthy still.  Just an example, of how this is over blown now and the focus is on all of vaping where it seems like maybe we should focus on the specific vaping issue.

[TempusVox]

There are too many conflicting ideas, and at this point that's what they are, ideas, to know for sure what the issue is at this stage. I started vaping marijuana about two months ago. I smoked like a fiend in high school, back in the early 80s, and not really since. But my college football days led to a faster breakdown of my body. I have had severe osteoarthritis for the last 18 years. I'm in a near constant state of pain. I've been eating Vicodin like candy, for the last 15 years.

So, it when was passed for medical purposes here in Ohio, where I spend most of my time, I got my card. I primarily use at night, as it keeps the pain from waking me up. And,while certainly not a cure for arthritis, it does significantly help, even when I'm not using. I have entire days now where I'm nearly pain free. But, I haven't had a Vicodin in two months now.

Here,burning the herb is illegal. But, the state tests every component. They test for Thc content of course, but also viruses, bacteria, pesticides, lead,mold, any adulterant, or synergist. It must be pure oil, nothing else. The reason for this is simple really, the end users are people with severe illnesses, rare diseases, or compromised immune systems.

They also test for butane, and carbon dioxide, which are part of the extraction process. If any is present, it has to be destroyed.

This of course, testing from seed to sale, drives up the cost. But it needs to be regulated. Banning isn't the answer, regulation is; just like any brewery, or distillery, they must adhere to strict guidlines.

Same with vaping devices, or marijuana, in my opinion.

[cramx3]

That's pretty amazing to get off vicodin for vaping.  Great example of regulating a product that actually can do good and the harm is super minimized by such regulation. 

[cramx3]

While no one has any true data to pin point it, my understanding is that it's shit carts likely from China that are filled with Vitamin E to dilute the THC and make more money off you. 

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cdc-makes-breakthrough-on-vaping-crisis-names-vitamin-e-oil-as-potential-culprit-182658687.html

Yup, only said this a month ago. 

[Herrick]

While no one has any true data to pin point it, my understanding is that it's shit carts likely from China that are filled with Vitamin E to dilute the THC and make more money off you. 

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cdc-makes-breakthrough-on-vaping-crisis-names-vitamin-e-oil-as-potential-culprit-182658687.html

Yup, only said this a month ago.

I wonder if the people ordered their liquids directly from China or if they bought them in the US.

[cramx3]

Probably in the US. Although I wouldn't be surprised if people in the US were making these too.  I think they busted a couple people who were making them kn their homes but not sure if those people were adding vitamin e to them.

[Harmony]

Many people buy them on-line.  As I've come to learn, so-called 'counterfeit' products like Dank Vapes.  (Although they aren't technically counterfeit as that would imply there is a legit company out there.)

But evidence of Dank Vapes is nowhere to be found in both industry and legal channels.

I stumbled across this article a couple of weeks ago.  I learned quite a bit about the seedy underbelly of black market vaping products.  Well worth a read - though it's pretty long and interspersed with annoy ads.

https://www.inverse.com/article/58581-dank-vapes

[cramx3]

I know nothing of buying those online but not surprising.