Author Topic: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation  (Read 18729 times)

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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #140 on: December 19, 2019, 01:59:57 PM »
Yeah, that doesn't really do anything but confirm my point. You're "closer," but still "never going to vote for Trump." As I said, his base will be on his dick no matter what, but that was the case 3 years ago, too. And to put it bluntly, anybody who wouldn't vote for him in 2016 but would now because they don't like the way his own criminality was handled by the opposition probably shouldn't be allowed to drive, procreate, operate heavy machinery, or vote. But, like I said, we get the government we deserve.

I think you're underestimating how many sane, rational folks are putt off by the tactics of the Dems over the past three years and how that near everything they've suggested or 'promised' and guaranteed about Trump has either turned out not to be true or been so insignificant that it's soured people towards them.

And sure...there's a larger conversation to be had about the economy and what the long term effects are of the economy but the typical person doesn't care about that. They see the record number low unemployment rates....jobs, salary increases and so on and it's 'good' for them. America's overall long tern economical position certainly wasn't helped by Trump but any suggestion that it's ALL his fault is silliness. We've been bankrupt and corrupted for 30  years now. It's literally been to the point of 'what's another 5 Trillion gonna hurt?" for years now. 

This sentiment that the swing or 'undecided' voters are automatically gonna move towards the Dems may have worked had the Dems not acted like spoiled little children and thrown the worlds longest temper tantrum over the past three years. That stuff resonates more with 'normal' people than trump being a dick and I don't think that the Dems are gonna get those people in the numbers they think they will.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #141 on: December 19, 2019, 02:04:12 PM »
As I've said all along, Trump's biggest failing, and also his biggest selling point, is that he has no clue how to be president. Some people like it, "yeah, stick it to those bureaucrats! Undo the status quo!" Those people also have to recognize that it creates an insurmountable number of problems, though. That's the trade-off, and that's exactly what we're seeing here. He simply had no idea that extorting aide from foreign countries for use in his political campaign was wrong. He's the damn president and he can do anything he wants.

And that's what elections are for.   I know that sounds trite, but we didn't impeach Carter because he had no clue (in a different way) how to be President. 
Yep, and we will once again elect the president we deserve and reap the dire consequences. I've got no problem with that. I have no stake in the future and America will die the death it deserves. You're the one with a vested interest in the future. I agree with you that impeachment doesn't improve the situation, but of course neither does the status quo of letting People of Walmart decide who's up next.

I'm in a little different position than most in that I'm not playing the "what's best for me and mine, f*** everyone else" game here.  I have a stake, but I'm also willing to let the people decide, even if it does lead to the death of America.   I don't think it will, not even close (I think the "end of democracy" claims are specious fear-mongering, myself) but only if at some point those that aren't "Wal-mart Shoppers" start talking honestly.  Society is, by definition, a slow mover, and it's SUPPOSED to be that way.  Sure, that creates problems in an age of social media and instant gratification, but "TrumpTM" (and I say it that way to signify him and all the baggage that surrounds him) isn't a party problem, it's ultimately a society problem.  We've not progressed yet to where the independent (not in terms of party, but in terms of government) have yet really embraced that fact that it's not the other guy. 

I know it gets confusing, but I don't limit this to Trump.  We don't live in a vacuum.   We have only recently started to look at climate change in a bipartisan way.  We're not there yet with guns, we're not there yet with healthcare...  I don't see much difference between this, frankly, and China.  We're so all about Russia, because Russia is the country du jour in terms of "our guy/gal", and so by definition a partisan issue, while China sits there and watches us like we're on an episode of Ridiculousness.   


Quote
At no point did I say he should be impeached because he's unpresidential. What I said was that it's because he has no understanding of how to be president that he committed the high crime and/or misdemeanor that you're content to let him slide on.

Well, thank you, because I was sloppy on exactly what you meant; I actually agree with you 100% on the point that this wouldn't have happened if he had a better understanding of the job.    I wouldn't say I'm "content to let him slide" on this, though.   It's sickening and maddening, but any application of street justice is, to me, sickening and maddening.  Becuase it shouldn't come to that, and it shows a breakdown in the system or the people operating it.  Where I think I'm out of step with the rest of you is that I think this is a "people" breakdown, not a system breakdown. 

I'm a Patriots fan; so I'm more than fine with going RIGHT UP to the line, and I'm fine with penalizing those that step over.  Everyone - apparently - knows where the line is (or should) and they dance the sidelines at their own peril.  Nothing changes here.   BUT... that doesn't mean that as soon as someone DOES walk over the line that anything goes.   And, as with some of the nonsense around the Patriots, I feel there is an inordinate amount of "anything goes" when it comes to dealing with Trump.  It's that which I feel has as much future impact as Trump's endeavors. 

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #142 on: December 19, 2019, 02:12:22 PM »
Yeah, that doesn't really do anything but confirm my point. You're "closer," but still "never going to vote for Trump." As I said, his base will be on his dick no matter what, but that was the case 3 years ago, too. And to put it bluntly, anybody who wouldn't vote for him in 2016 but would now because they don't like the way his own criminality was handled by the opposition probably shouldn't be allowed to drive, procreate, operate heavy machinery, or vote. But, like I said, we get the government we deserve.

I think you're underestimating how many sane, rational folks are putt off by the tactics of the Dems over the past three years and how that near everything they've suggested or 'promised' and guaranteed about Trump has either turned out not to be true or been so insignificant that it's soured people towards them.

And sure...there's a larger conversation to be had about the economy and what the long term effects are of the economy but the typical person doesn't care about that. They see the record number low unemployment rates....jobs, salary increases and so on and it's 'good' for them. America's overall long tern economical position certainly wasn't helped by Trump but any suggestion that it's ALL his fault is silliness. We've been bankrupt and corrupted for 30  years now. It's literally been to the point of 'what's another 5 Trillion gonna hurt?" for years now. 

This sentiment that the swing or 'undecided' voters are automatically gonna move towards the Dems may have worked had the Dems not acted like spoiled little children and thrown the worlds longest temper tantrum over the past three years. That stuff resonates more with 'normal' people than trump being a dick and I don't think that the Dems are gonna get those people in the numbers they think they will.

It saddens me that people think the dems are acting like children and have no problem with a strongman in the White House with absolutely zero concerns for his character or respect for the citizens he's supposed to represent and serve or one modicum of the rule of law

But oh well, fuck them crybaby evil democraps, right

This country is doomed in no small part because ya'll can't just stop blaming the other side. This country falls apart without compromise. Nobody wants to compromise. It's all-in or nothing. The opposing side is black or white, good or evil. No in between. That's all I get from reading these posts, unless you're Stadler or EB or Dave who actually get into the nitty gritty and don't sit blindly on one side of the aisle

FFS, Trump just insulted a congressional titan and his wife last night to a massive audience, implying the congressman was in hell, and he made it all a sick joke. The man doesn't care about you. Not one bit. All his bluster about making America great again... is this the behavior that makes him great? The democrats are the root of the evil here, but not the guy we elected who on a daily basis should embarrass every one of us? Man. All right. I guess that's what we are now.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 02:18:23 PM by Kattelox »
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #143 on: December 19, 2019, 02:17:05 PM »
It saddens me that people think the dems are acting like children and have no problem with a strongman in the White House with absolutely zero concerns for his character or respect for the citizens he's supposed to represent and serve or one modicum of the rule of law

I never said I don't have a problem with trump....in fact...I've said the opposite quite frequently. I'm simply pointing out that the way the Dems have handled trump hasn't come across very good. They've done nothing to separate themselves from him.....their approach and the way they've targeted him is as sloppy, vindictive and unprofessional as he is. They missed a major opportunity to make him a one term President by playing on his level.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #144 on: December 19, 2019, 02:19:30 PM »
It saddens me that people think the dems are acting like children and have no problem with a strongman in the White House with absolutely zero concerns for his character or respect for the citizens he's supposed to represent and serve or one modicum of the rule of law

I never said I don't have a problem with trump....in fact...I've said the opposite quite frequently. I'm simply pointing out that the way the Dems have handled trump hasn't come across very good. They've done nothing to separate themselves from him.....their approach and the way they've targeted him is as sloppy, vindictive and unprofessional as he is. They missed a major opportunity to make him a one term President by playing on his level.

No offense Gary but almost every post you make here blames the democrats. You always blame the democrats, and plant the blame for all of this at their feet. How is playing on his level any better for the country? You want half of Congress to really behave the way Trump does? We'd figuratively nuke our government in a week. Why are you again focusing on the democrats' behavior when the entire republican party has now officially endorsed his behavior? I watched most of the debate yesterday, and almost every republican talking point focused on implying the democrats are trying to undo the last election (they aren't), and making irrelevant arguments in a desperate attempt to rebutt the factual points the dem speakers brought up.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #145 on: December 19, 2019, 02:21:29 PM »
Yeah, that doesn't really do anything but confirm my point. You're "closer," but still "never going to vote for Trump." As I said, his base will be on his dick no matter what, but that was the case 3 years ago, too. And to put it bluntly, anybody who wouldn't vote for him in 2016 but would now because they don't like the way his own criminality was handled by the opposition probably shouldn't be allowed to drive, procreate, operate heavy machinery, or vote. But, like I said, we get the government we deserve.

I think you're underestimating how many sane, rational folks are putt off by the tactics of the Dems over the past three years and how that near everything they've suggested or 'promised' and guaranteed about Trump has either turned out not to be true or been so insignificant that it's soured people towards them.

And sure...there's a larger conversation to be had about the economy and what the long term effects are of the economy but the typical person doesn't care about that. They see the record number low unemployment rates....jobs, salary increases and so on and it's 'good' for them. America's overall long tern economical position certainly wasn't helped by Trump but any suggestion that it's ALL his fault is silliness. We've been bankrupt and corrupted for 30  years now. It's literally been to the point of 'what's another 5 Trillion gonna hurt?" for years now. 

This sentiment that the swing or 'undecided' voters are automatically gonna move towards the Dems may have worked had the Dems not acted like spoiled little children and thrown the worlds longest temper tantrum over the past three years. That stuff resonates more with 'normal' people than trump being a dick and I don't think that the Dems are gonna get those people in the numbers they think they will.

I think, too, El Barto, you might be underestimating the number of sane, rational folks that aren't accepting on face that this - what he's ACTUALLY being impeached for - is criminal behavior.

I have VERY REAL concerns that the obstruction of Congress charge is a frivilous claim.  Trump filed a case in Federal court on the VERY QUESTION of whether those people have to testify.   It would be stupid for him to argue IN COURT that there would be damage in those people testifying and then have to force them to testify in advance of the ruling.   Let me ask you this:  your best friend gets pulled over, and the cop asks "can I search your car", and the guy says no.  Searches anyway, outside of plain sight, and with no apparent probable cause, and finds a stash of weed and a weapon.   Your friend hires a lawyer who promptly files a motion to get the evidence tossed.  Do you think it's fair to have the case progress WITH the evidence while the motion gets acted on?   What about a death row candidate with a motion to stay?  Do you kill the guy while waiting on the court to rule on the stay?    That's what this is.  The lower case ruled on Trump's case, and the case was appealed.  It's in process.  To me, that's not a partisan thing, that's not a Congress thing, that's not a due process thing, that's a fundamental Consitutional thing, the VERY thing that Congress is supposedly seeking to uphold. 

Collins is a dipshit, but he's right about one thing:  "The clock and calendar are terrible masters." 

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #146 on: December 19, 2019, 02:30:14 PM »
It saddens me that people think the dems are acting like children and have no problem with a strongman in the White House with absolutely zero concerns for his character or respect for the citizens he's supposed to represent and serve or one modicum of the rule of law

I never said I don't have a problem with trump....in fact...I've said the opposite quite frequently. I'm simply pointing out that the way the Dems have handled trump hasn't come across very good. They've done nothing to separate themselves from him.....their approach and the way they've targeted him is as sloppy, vindictive and unprofessional as he is. They missed a major opportunity to make him a one term President by playing on his level.

No offense Gary but almost every post you make here blames the democrats. You always blame the democrats, and plant the blame for all of this at their feet. How is playing on his level any better for the country? You want half of Congress to really behave the way Trump does? We'd figuratively nuke our government in a week.

My point in the bold is that they HAVE been playing on his level.

Well just because I don't toe the DTF P/R line and hail all things Democrat and Liberal doesn't mean I'm wrong when saying the Dems have acted like babies. And while I don't approve of the way Graham and McConnell have handled things either I don't bitch about it because they don't have the weight of the media behind them like the Dems do. Sure they have FOX news....one outlet....but outside of that near every media outlet and the Dems have been firing at trump since before he won. Some stories have had validity while the majority are just crap. Three years of crap reporting and whining gets annoying.

It'd be great to get to the 'old' days where partisanship wasn't so toxic.....where compromise did happen.....but those days are long gone. It didn't start with trump's presidency but it certainly hasn't gotten any better under him. As EB, Bill and others have stated.....'we'....the American public are simply getting what we deserve in washington. It's literally no one's fault but our own as long as we keep electing the same folks to office.

 
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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #147 on: December 19, 2019, 02:31:29 PM »
It saddens me that people think the dems are acting like children and have no problem with a strongman in the White House with absolutely zero concerns for his character or respect for the citizens he's supposed to represent and serve or one modicum of the rule of law

I never said I don't have a problem with trump....in fact...I've said the opposite quite frequently. I'm simply pointing out that the way the Dems have handled trump hasn't come across very good. They've done nothing to separate themselves from him.....their approach and the way they've targeted him is as sloppy, vindictive and unprofessional as he is. They missed a major opportunity to make him a one term President by playing on his level.

No offense Gary but almost every post you make here blames the democrats. You always blame the democrats, and plant the blame for all of this at their feet. How is playing on his level any better for the country? You want half of Congress to really behave the way Trump does? We'd figuratively nuke our government in a week. Why are you again focusing on the democrats' behavior when the entire republican party has now officially endorsed his behavior? I watched most of the debate yesterday, and almost every republican talking point focused on implying the democrats are trying to undo the last election (they aren't), and making irrelevant arguments in a desperate attempt to rebutt the factual points the dem speakers brought up.

I'm not taking sides between you at all, but I would point out that a key component of my position is that Congress - both sides - are alREADY behaving like Trump does, and have been for a while.    Eric Swalwell.  Matt Gaetz.  Rashida "I'm here to impeach that motherfucker!" Tlaib...

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #148 on: December 19, 2019, 02:35:57 PM »
It saddens me that people think the dems are acting like children and have no problem with a strongman in the White House with absolutely zero concerns for his character or respect for the citizens he's supposed to represent and serve or one modicum of the rule of law

I never said I don't have a problem with trump....in fact...I've said the opposite quite frequently. I'm simply pointing out that the way the Dems have handled trump hasn't come across very good. They've done nothing to separate themselves from him.....their approach and the way they've targeted him is as sloppy, vindictive and unprofessional as he is. They missed a major opportunity to make him a one term President by playing on his level.

No offense Gary but almost every post you make here blames the democrats. You always blame the democrats, and plant the blame for all of this at their feet. How is playing on his level any better for the country? You want half of Congress to really behave the way Trump does? We'd figuratively nuke our government in a week.

My point in the bold is that they HAVE been playing on his level.

Well just because I don't toe the DTF P/R line and hail all things Democrat and Liberal doesn't mean I'm wrong when saying the Dems have acted like babies. And while I don't approve of the way Graham and McConnell have handled things either I don't bitch about it because they don't have the weight of the media behind them like the Dems do. Sure they have FOX news....one outlet....but outside of that near every media outlet and the Dems have been firing at trump since before he won. Some stories have had validity while the majority are just crap. Three years of crap reporting and whining gets annoying.

It'd be great to get to the 'old' days where partisanship wasn't so toxic.....where compromise did happen.....but those days are long gone. It didn't start with trump's presidency but it certainly hasn't gotten any better under him. As EB, Bill and others have stated.....'we'....the American public are simply getting what we deserve in washington. It's literally no one's fault but our own as long as we keep electing the same folks to office.

I didn't say you have to hail all the things democrats and liberals do. Not even close. There wasn't even an insinuation of that in there.

Some of ya'll act like there's no valid reason to fire at Trump. I don't understand that point of view in the slightest. The man is a cancer on civil society and displays it on a daily basis.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #149 on: December 19, 2019, 02:39:17 PM »
The man is a cancer on civil society and displays it on a daily basis.

Completely agree.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #150 on: December 19, 2019, 02:42:09 PM »
The man is a cancer on civil society and displays it on a daily basis.

Completely agree.

:hifive: My man!

Look I totally agree that both parties are an embarrassment. I really do. That said I do think the dems are going about this properly and soberly. The republicans were the ones in hysterics yesterday, booing and heckling. They're on the defense, some with valid points, many going off on screeds about things that aren't even true or related to the articles.

There's a rot on our government and impeaching and/or removing Trump won't fix it, but it's a necessary step to take for the integrity of the government. If his actions and behavior aren't impeachable - and keep in mind, one of the articles of impeachment drawn against Andrew freaking Johnson was explicitly about his behavior demeaning the office of the president - then I'm honestly not quite sure what is.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #151 on: December 19, 2019, 02:56:07 PM »
Yeah, that doesn't really do anything but confirm my point. You're "closer," but still "never going to vote for Trump." As I said, his base will be on his dick no matter what, but that was the case 3 years ago, too. And to put it bluntly, anybody who wouldn't vote for him in 2016 but would now because they don't like the way his own criminality was handled by the opposition probably shouldn't be allowed to drive, procreate, operate heavy machinery, or vote. But, like I said, we get the government we deserve.

I think you're underestimating how many sane, rational folks are putt off by the tactics of the Dems over the past three years and how that near everything they've suggested or 'promised' and guaranteed about Trump has either turned out not to be true or been so insignificant that it's soured people towards them.

And sure...there's a larger conversation to be had about the economy and what the long term effects are of the economy but the typical person doesn't care about that. They see the record number low unemployment rates....jobs, salary increases and so on and it's 'good' for them. America's overall long tern economical position certainly wasn't helped by Trump but any suggestion that it's ALL his fault is silliness. We've been bankrupt and corrupted for 30  years now. It's literally been to the point of 'what's another 5 Trillion gonna hurt?" for years now. 

This sentiment that the swing or 'undecided' voters are automatically gonna move towards the Dems may have worked had the Dems not acted like spoiled little children and thrown the worlds longest temper tantrum over the past three years. That stuff resonates more with 'normal' people than trump being a dick and I don't think that the Dems are gonna get those people in the numbers they think they will.
I haven't said that the swing voters will gravitate to the democrats. I've said that they won't gravitate to Trump. All of these sane, rational people you're talking about certainly see the democratic temper tantrum, but they also see that Trump's a buffoon and that he actually did what he's accused of. As I see it it's a wash.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #152 on: December 19, 2019, 03:06:43 PM »
All of these sane, rational people you're talking about certainly see the democratic temper tantrum, but they also see that Trump ...  actually did what he's accused of.
He did?  :eek  Somebody should tell Congress so they can get some witnesses to testify to that then, right away!
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #153 on: December 19, 2019, 03:08:18 PM »
As I've said all along, Trump's biggest failing, and also his biggest selling point, is that he has no clue how to be president. Some people like it, "yeah, stick it to those bureaucrats! Undo the status quo!" Those people also have to recognize that it creates an insurmountable number of problems, though. That's the trade-off, and that's exactly what we're seeing here. He simply had no idea that extorting aide from foreign countries for use in his political campaign was wrong. He's the damn president and he can do anything he wants.

And that's what elections are for.   I know that sounds trite, but we didn't impeach Carter because he had no clue (in a different way) how to be President. 
Yep, and we will once again elect the president we deserve and reap the dire consequences. I've got no problem with that. I have no stake in the future and America will die the death it deserves. You're the one with a vested interest in the future. I agree with you that impeachment doesn't improve the situation, but of course neither does the status quo of letting People of Walmart decide who's up next.

I'm in a little different position than most in that I'm not playing the "what's best for me and mine, f*** everyone else" game here.  I have a stake, but I'm also willing to let the people decide, even if it does lead to the death of America.   I don't think it will, not even close (I think the "end of democracy" claims are specious fear-mongering, myself) but only if at some point those that aren't "Wal-mart Shoppers" start talking honestly.  Society is, by definition, a slow mover, and it's SUPPOSED to be that way.  Sure, that creates problems in an age of social media and instant gratification, but "TrumpTM" (and I say it that way to signify him and all the baggage that surrounds him) isn't a party problem, it's ultimately a society problem.  We've not progressed yet to where the independent (not in terms of party, but in terms of government) have yet really embraced that fact that it's not the other guy. 

I know it gets confusing, but I don't limit this to Trump.  We don't live in a vacuum.   We have only recently started to look at climate change in a bipartisan way.  We're not there yet with guns, we're not there yet with healthcare...  I don't see much difference between this, frankly, and China.  We're so all about Russia, because Russia is the country du jour in terms of "our guy/gal", and so by definition a partisan issue, while China sits there and watches us like we're on an episode of Ridiculousness.   
Where I think you run afoul is that society is composed of people. Not persons, mind you, but ignorant, irrational people. Yeah, sure, we could adopt a bipartisan approach to climate change and it would be great. Why haven't we? Because it's not what we want. We want to win and we want to validate ourselves. You say that we don't live in a vacuum. I would say that neither democracy nor society works in a vacuum, and human nature must be a driving force of them both. Sadly, human nature isn't at all on your side. In fact, it's the biggest enemy of your position, I suspect.

Quote
Well, thank you, because I was sloppy on exactly what you meant; I actually agree with you 100% on the point that this wouldn't have happened if he had a better understanding of the job.    I wouldn't say I'm "content to let him slide" on this, though.   It's sickening and maddening, but any application of street justice is, to me, sickening and maddening.  Becuase it shouldn't come to that, and it shows a breakdown in the system or the people operating it.  Where I think I'm out of step with the rest of you is that I think this is a "people" breakdown, not a system breakdown.
You now he's guilty and yet to assail the body that's in place to hold him accountable at every step, while remaining silent about the equally rotten body that defends him. Sorry, man, but it sure looks to me like you're willing to let it slide.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #154 on: December 19, 2019, 03:11:00 PM »
I'm not taking sides between you at all, but I would point out that a key component of my position is that Congress - both sides - are alREADY behaving like Trump does, and have been for a while.    Eric Swalwell.  Matt Gaetz.  Rashida "I'm here to impeach that motherfucker!" Tlaib...

Which raises the uncomfortable notion that despite what you often say about the Democrats not learning the lessons of 2016, maybe they have. Maybe the lesson of 2016 is that in modern America, Donald Trump's bullying, name-calling, rabble-rousing, idiot-pandering, "alternate-facts"-spewing systematic degradation of public discourse is what works.

Consider it this way: Mitt Romney (for example) is a calm, informed and mild-mannered person. He speaks well and respectfully. His ideas are informed by facts. He's politically astute, both domestically and geopolitically (recall Obama mocking him for warning about Russia's intentions). Everyone here on this forum, from left to right, seems to more or less respect him. And the funny thing is this: in today's America, Trump would absolutely trounce him in an election. Unconvinced of that? Then recall the primaries. We can perhaps pin Trump's presidential election victory on the awfulness of Hillary but that doesn't explain his annihilation of 16 other Republican candidates, from moderate, clever and well-spoken political thinkers to Rick Perry. That ought to be the concern, in my opinion. Not that the Dems haven't learnt what 'doesn't work', but that they've learnt from Trump what does. Again, it wasn't the awfulness of Hillary and the Dems that saw this incoherent and shamelessly ignorant man kick the shit out of Bush, Huckabee, Rubio, Paul, Christie, Kasich, Cruz, Fiorina et al. As disgraceful as they often are (his attack on John Dingell at his rally yesterday was yet another assault on basic human decency by this man who Pompeo, Pence and Sarah Sanders have suggested was "sent by God"), Trump's methods seem to work in 21st century America.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline Harmony

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #155 on: December 19, 2019, 03:29:25 PM »
FFS, Trump just insulted a congressional titan and his wife last night to a massive audience, implying the congressman was in hell, and he made it all a sick joke. The man doesn't care about you. Not one bit. All his bluster about making America great again... is this the behavior that makes him great? The democrats are the root of the evil here, but not the guy we elected who on a daily basis should embarrass every one of us? Man. All right. I guess that's what we are now.

It's no use feeling indignant about things like this (and I did too for about a minute) because this is the perfect representation of WHO HE IS.  I mean, is it really surprising coming from a guy who launched the birther movement?  No - it's par for the golf course.  And it is exactly what appeals to his base.  Anything to piss of the libtards is just fine by them.  They lap it up like pigs at the trough. 

What is baffling to me are the people on the right who are not his base.  I keep wondering what happened to their spines?  Oh sure, every once in awhile the Meghan McCains or the Mitt Romneys poke their heads out of their holes and say something against the supreme leader, but it's never anything impactful and it's never anything aimed at Trump's enablers - who are really to blame.

There will never be a perfect POTUS.  Even those who we vote for and support, if we are honest, we won't like everything they do.  And they will make mistakes on the job.  That's to be expected.  But Trump isn't even close to imperfect, let alone perfect.  And it has nothing really to do with his policies.  He's a loose cannon and everybody with a brain who isn't in the cult knows it.  And those who know it and yet remain loyal to it out of fear or lust for power are the real traitors to their country. 
Since when is a military occupation considered small government?

Offline Harmony

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #156 on: December 19, 2019, 03:30:23 PM »
All of these sane, rational people you're talking about certainly see the democratic temper tantrum, but they also see that Trump ...  actually did what he's accused of.
He did?  :eek  Somebody should tell Congress so they can get some witnesses to testify to that then, right away!

I say let Trump testify.
Since when is a military occupation considered small government?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #157 on: December 19, 2019, 03:31:26 PM »
Yeah, that doesn't really do anything but confirm my point. You're "closer," but still "never going to vote for Trump." As I said, his base will be on his dick no matter what, but that was the case 3 years ago, too. And to put it bluntly, anybody who wouldn't vote for him in 2016 but would now because they don't like the way his own criminality was handled by the opposition probably shouldn't be allowed to drive, procreate, operate heavy machinery, or vote. But, like I said, we get the government we deserve.

I think you're underestimating how many sane, rational folks are putt off by the tactics of the Dems over the past three years and how that near everything they've suggested or 'promised' and guaranteed about Trump has either turned out not to be true or been so insignificant that it's soured people towards them.

And sure...there's a larger conversation to be had about the economy and what the long term effects are of the economy but the typical person doesn't care about that. They see the record number low unemployment rates....jobs, salary increases and so on and it's 'good' for them. America's overall long tern economical position certainly wasn't helped by Trump but any suggestion that it's ALL his fault is silliness. We've been bankrupt and corrupted for 30  years now. It's literally been to the point of 'what's another 5 Trillion gonna hurt?" for years now. 

This sentiment that the swing or 'undecided' voters are automatically gonna move towards the Dems may have worked had the Dems not acted like spoiled little children and thrown the worlds longest temper tantrum over the past three years. That stuff resonates more with 'normal' people than trump being a dick and I don't think that the Dems are gonna get those people in the numbers they think they will.

I think, too, El Barto, you might be underestimating the number of sane, rational folks that aren't accepting on face that this - what he's ACTUALLY being impeached for - is criminal behavior.

I have VERY REAL concerns that the obstruction of Congress charge is a frivilous claim.  Trump filed a case in Federal court on the VERY QUESTION of whether those people have to testify.   It would be stupid for him to argue IN COURT that there would be damage in those people testifying and then have to force them to testify in advance of the ruling.   Let me ask you this:  your best friend gets pulled over, and the cop asks "can I search your car", and the guy says no.  Searches anyway, outside of plain sight, and with no apparent probable cause, and finds a stash of weed and a weapon.   Your friend hires a lawyer who promptly files a motion to get the evidence tossed.  Do you think it's fair to have the case progress WITH the evidence while the motion gets acted on?   What about a death row candidate with a motion to stay?  Do you kill the guy while waiting on the court to rule on the stay?    That's what this is.  The lower case ruled on Trump's case, and the case was appealed.  It's in process.  To me, that's not a partisan thing, that's not a Congress thing, that's not a due process thing, that's a fundamental Consitutional thing, the VERY thing that Congress is supposedly seeking to uphold. 

Collins is a dipshit, but he's right about one thing:  "The clock and calendar are terrible masters."
Were he still alive, Burgher would object to your analysis. For 260 years and at least one supreme court case (US v Nixon) it's been clearly established that executive privilege is not applicable to impeachment. Trump's OLC's position is that his advisors shouldn't have to testify because they'd simply all claim executive privilege once they got there anyway, so what's the point. That privilege would be invalid, though, negating that particular prophylaxis.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 03:52:26 PM by El Barto »
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #158 on: December 19, 2019, 03:34:31 PM »
I say let Trump testify.

This would be incredible to watch. I think he wants to but is being pretty much told not to...or that he can't/shoudn't. Because 'they' all know it would be a sh%t show....but an entertaining one at that. It'd guarantee him being removed from office...that's for sure. I think it'd take all but 10 minutes for him to perjure himself or admit to some law he broke without knowing it.  :lol
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #159 on: December 19, 2019, 03:34:45 PM »
All of these sane, rational people you're talking about certainly see the democratic temper tantrum, but they also see that Trump ...  actually did what he's accused of.
He did?  :eek  Somebody should tell Congress so they can get some witnesses to testify to that then, right away!
Bill and Gary, the people I'm discussing this with, both recognize that he did was he's accused of, and if you were being objective I suspect you would too.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #160 on: December 19, 2019, 03:44:42 PM »
I say let Trump testify.

This would be incredible to watch. I think he wants to but is being pretty much told not to...or that he can't/shoudn't. Because 'they' all know it would be a sh%t show....but an entertaining one at that. It'd guarantee him being removed from office...that's for sure. I think it'd take all but 10 minutes for him to perjure himself or admit to some law he broke without knowing it.  :lol
LOL. Trump could wear a "Fuck This Senate" T-shirt and a soiled US flag diaper to the proceeding, before shouting a perfect Jack Nicholson style confession, and the spineless sycophants in the Senate would be just as fast to acquit him. They view it as their job.

As I've said before, there's nothing he can do that would result in his ouster. Partly because that would open the door to the wrong baby-killing, gun-seizing, commie lizard getting in. Partly because, as Stadler keeps telling us, the motives of the prosecution are impure, and therefore no case they make against him is valid. A convenient argument in that it's always applicable and impossible to disprove.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #161 on: December 19, 2019, 04:51:23 PM »

Some of ya'll act like there's no valid reason to fire at Trump. I don't understand that point of view in the slightest. The man is a cancer on civil society and displays it on a daily basis.

I'm not sure I follow this; what do you mean by "fire"?  He might be all those things.  NOT ILLEGAL.  As some of you know, I don't really buy into "well, you're a dick so I can be a dick"; we learned in grade school that two wrongs don't make a right, and we were to turn the other cheek.  Michelle herself tried to claim, "they go low, we go high", but honestly, I don't see anyone going high right now. 

That's not on Trump.  That's on US. We want Trump to own his actions, but there's not a lot of ownership anywhere else, it seems.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #162 on: December 19, 2019, 05:30:32 PM »
The man is a cancer on civil society and displays it on a daily basis.

Completely agree.

:hifive: My man!

Look I totally agree that both parties are an embarrassment. I really do. That said I do think the dems are going about this properly and soberly. The republicans were the ones in hysterics yesterday, booing and heckling. They're on the defense, some with valid points, many going off on screeds about things that aren't even true or related to the articles.

I didn't see it myself, but I understand Dems applauded and cheered after the vote.  I thought this was a solemn, sad day? I thought this was not something to be celebrated, but rued?

Quote
There's a rot on our government and impeaching and/or removing Trump won't fix it, but it's a necessary step to take for the integrity of the government. If his actions and behavior aren't impeachable - and keep in mind, one of the articles of impeachment drawn against Andrew freaking Johnson was explicitly about his behavior demeaning the office of the president - then I'm honestly not quite sure what is.

It's not that simple; the obstruction charge: he told people not to testify. Ok; sounds easy, right?  What about the court case he brought to get a ruling on whether that testimony was appropriate? 

I've asked already; what if you were arrested, and you filed a motion and the prosecutor just said "f*** it, let's plow forward, AND we'll use your motion as evidence of your guilt?"   What if you were on death row and filed a motion for a stay, and the state said "Ah, f*** it, we're going forward, and oh, by the way, you fighting us on this is proof of your bad intent!".   What if you got arrested and asked for a lawyer and the cop said "yep, guilty.  Innocent man wouldn't NEED a lawyer".  I think some of you would be up in arms at those events, either in whole or in part.  So why not now?

Offline Harmony

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #163 on: December 19, 2019, 05:34:31 PM »
https://www.axios.com/christianity-today-evangelicals-supports-impeachment-92956ccb-241c-48d7-bad3-d3e4ddd2d64d.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR2vy-6vcJ7rdbaz7C089pVToo5sIbTeohHVEUVE7c93wLN1vPuHJup8tbU

Billy Graham's evangelical magazine calls for Trump's removal.

Quote
"We have reserved judgment on Mr. Trump for years now. Some have criticized us for our reserve. But when it comes to condemning the behavior of another, patient charity must come first. ... To use an old cliché, it’s time to call a spade a spade, to say that no matter how many hands we win in this political poker game, we are playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence."

Huh.  Maybe there are a few conservatives with spines out there.

Waiting for Trump to say he prefers preachers who aren't dead and then go on to call Graham an 'unstable, failing, evangelical' in five...four...three...two...
Since when is a military occupation considered small government?

Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #164 on: December 19, 2019, 10:38:53 PM »
As I've said all along, Trump's biggest failing, and also his biggest selling point, is that he has no clue how to be president. Some people like it, "yeah, stick it to those bureaucrats! Undo the status quo!" Those people also have to recognize that it creates an insurmountable number of problems, though. That's the trade-off, and that's exactly what we're seeing here. He simply had no idea that extorting aide from foreign countries for use in his political campaign was wrong. He's the damn president and he can do anything he wants.

And that's what elections are for.   I know that sounds trite, but we didn't impeach Carter because he had no clue (in a different way) how to be President. 
Yep, and we will once again elect the president we deserve and reap the dire consequences. I've got no problem with that. I have no stake in the future and America will die the death it deserves. You're the one with a vested interest in the future. I agree with you that impeachment doesn't improve the situation, but of course neither does the status quo of letting People of Walmart decide who's up next.

I'm in a little different position than most in that I'm not playing the "what's best for me and mine, f*** everyone else" game here.  I have a stake, but I'm also willing to let the people decide, even if it does lead to the death of America.   I don't think it will, not even close (I think the "end of democracy" claims are specious fear-mongering, myself) but only if at some point those that aren't "Wal-mart Shoppers" start talking honestly.  Society is, by definition, a slow mover, and it's SUPPOSED to be that way.  Sure, that creates problems in an age of social media and instant gratification, but "TrumpTM" (and I say it that way to signify him and all the baggage that surrounds him) isn't a party problem, it's ultimately a society problem.  We've not progressed yet to where the independent (not in terms of party, but in terms of government) have yet really embraced that fact that it's not the other guy. 

I know it gets confusing, but I don't limit this to Trump.  We don't live in a vacuum.   We have only recently started to look at climate change in a bipartisan way.  We're not there yet with guns, we're not there yet with healthcare...  I don't see much difference between this, frankly, and China.  We're so all about Russia, because Russia is the country du jour in terms of "our guy/gal", and so by definition a partisan issue, while China sits there and watches us like we're on an episode of Ridiculousness.   
Where I think you run afoul is that society is composed of people. Not persons, mind you, but ignorant, irrational people. Yeah, sure, we could adopt a bipartisan approach to climate change and it would be great. Why haven't we? Because it's not what we want. We want to win and we want to validate ourselves. You say that we don't live in a vacuum. I would say that neither democracy nor society works in a vacuum, and human nature must be a driving force of them both. Sadly, human nature isn't at all on your side. In fact, it's the biggest enemy of your position, I suspect.

If that's the case, then, why the uproar over Trump?  Have you SEEN the comments section on Youtube lately?   Have you SEEN twitter lately?   I've several times offered Quora as an example of some of the more severe partisanship in our society, and some of you - I'm not saying you, El Barto; I'm not quoting anyone or putting words in anyone's mouth, just generalizing a response I've gotten more than once - have dismissed that as not being relevant.  Well, if our discourse and our government is to reflect that, it has to reflect it across the board.   

Quote
Quote
Well, thank you, because I was sloppy on exactly what you meant; I actually agree with you 100% on the point that this wouldn't have happened if he had a better understanding of the job.    I wouldn't say I'm "content to let him slide" on this, though.   It's sickening and maddening, but any application of street justice is, to me, sickening and maddening.  Becuase it shouldn't come to that, and it shows a breakdown in the system or the people operating it.  Where I think I'm out of step with the rest of you is that I think this is a "people" breakdown, not a system breakdown.
You now he's guilty and yet to assail the body that's in place to hold him accountable at every step, while remaining silent about the equally rotten body that defends him. Sorry, man, but it sure looks to me like you're willing to let it slide.

Well, to clear up a point or two, I think he's guilty, GENERALLY, I don't necessarily think he's guilty of what he's DIRECTLY charged of.  I'm frankly baffled by the vote on obstruction.  For a pack of lawyers to vote that way is mind boggling to me.  This isn't complicated law, it's basic Procedure 101.   

This is a very hard conversation to have, because it's multifaceted.  Remember when Hillary said she had her "public position" and her "private position"? She took flack for it, but it was one of her more profound, honest, and necessary statements.  I wish we ALL had a "public position" and a "private position".  We live in an age where opinion is taken at a level of fact, and "because I feel it, it must be true!"  I don't agree with that.  I have many "public positions" and "private positions".  Abortion.  Me, personally?  Pro-life all the way.  I've explained why. But I would fight to the death for EVERY OTHER American citizen (since we're talking about the U.S. government) to make that choice for him- or herself.  This is one of those cases.  I think Trump a piece of shit who needs to go.  I do NOT believe we should impeach because he's a piece of shit and needs to go.  I do not believe we ignore that he gets to pick his defense, and if he chooses to take it to the court, so be it; he doesn't lose that because he's a piece of shit and needs to go.   If we're going to accuse someone of receiving a "personal benefit" from an action that also has an official foreign policy aspect, we have to prove that, not just take it on faith because he's a piece of shit that has to go. 

I'm actually more disappointed in the Dems than anything else.  They kind of have/had their chance and I think they're blowing it with same old, same old. 

« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 08:11:21 AM by Stadler »

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #165 on: December 20, 2019, 06:02:26 AM »
https://www.axios.com/christianity-today-evangelicals-supports-impeachment-92956ccb-241c-48d7-bad3-d3e4ddd2d64d.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR2vy-6vcJ7rdbaz7C089pVToo5sIbTeohHVEUVE7c93wLN1vPuHJup8tbU

Billy Graham's evangelical magazine calls for Trump's removal.

Quote
"We have reserved judgment on Mr. Trump for years now. Some have criticized us for our reserve. But when it comes to condemning the behavior of another, patient charity must come first. ... To use an old cliché, it’s time to call a spade a spade, to say that no matter how many hands we win in this political poker game, we are playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence."

Huh.  Maybe there are a few conservatives with spines out there.

Waiting for Trump to say he prefers preachers who aren't dead and then go on to call Graham an 'unstable, failing, evangelical' in five...four...three...two...

"A far left magazine, or very “progressive,” as some would call it, which has been doing poorly and hasn’t been involved with the Billy Graham family for many years, Christianity Today, knows nothing about reading a perfect transcript of a routine phone call and would rather.....

...have a Radical Left nonbeliever, who wants to take your religion & your guns, than Donald Trump as your President. No President has done more for the Evangelical community, and it’s not even close. You’ll not get anything from those Dems on stage. I won’t be reading ET again!"


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1207997316424187905
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1207997319821615105


Christianity Today (or 'ET' as he apparently calls it) is a "far left magazine" that wants to see "your religion and your guns" gone from America.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #166 on: December 20, 2019, 07:27:54 AM »
All of these sane, rational people you're talking about certainly see the democratic temper tantrum, but they also see that Trump ...  actually did what he's accused of.
He did?  :eek  Somebody should tell Congress so they can get some witnesses to testify to that then, right away!
Bill and Gary, the people I'm discussing this with, both recognize that he did was he's accused of, and if you were being objective I suspect you would too.
I'm not so sure they do.  But regardless, and sarcasm aside, all I can do is look at the evidence presented and the charges, and give my honest opinion as an attorney that there is not enough there to convict.  Which is why I am confident that if this were to move on to a trial before the Senate, or even if it could hypothetically have gone to an actual jury trial out there somewhere in a court, he could not be convicted.  There's a huge difference between "there's some evidence he did some bad stuff" and "there is sufficient evidence to overcome the Constitutional presumption of innocent until proven guilty and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed the crimes with which he is being charged."
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Harmony

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #167 on: December 20, 2019, 08:07:53 AM »
https://www.axios.com/christianity-today-evangelicals-supports-impeachment-92956ccb-241c-48d7-bad3-d3e4ddd2d64d.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR2vy-6vcJ7rdbaz7C089pVToo5sIbTeohHVEUVE7c93wLN1vPuHJup8tbU

Billy Graham's evangelical magazine calls for Trump's removal.

Quote
"We have reserved judgment on Mr. Trump for years now. Some have criticized us for our reserve. But when it comes to condemning the behavior of another, patient charity must come first. ... To use an old cliché, it’s time to call a spade a spade, to say that no matter how many hands we win in this political poker game, we are playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence."

Huh.  Maybe there are a few conservatives with spines out there.

Waiting for Trump to say he prefers preachers who aren't dead and then go on to call Graham an 'unstable, failing, evangelical' in five...four...three...two...

"A far left magazine, or very “progressive,” as some would call it, which has been doing poorly and hasn’t been involved with the Billy Graham family for many years, Christianity Today, knows nothing about reading a perfect transcript of a routine phone call and would rather.....

...have a Radical Left nonbeliever, who wants to take your religion & your guns, than Donald Trump as your President. No President has done more for the Evangelical community, and it’s not even close. You’ll not get anything from those Dems on stage. I won’t be reading ET again!"


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1207997316424187905
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1207997319821615105


Christianity Today (or 'ET' as he apparently calls it) is a "far left magazine" that wants to see "your religion and your guns" gone from America.

LoL, right on cue!  Hey, at least he's consistent with his poop tweeting.  I gotta give him that.

Interesting that he appears to be confusing Christianity Today with ET or Entertainment Tonight which is a Hollywood gossip-type television show.  Of course, nobody believes he actually reads anything other than his own tweets.  So it's understandable.
Since when is a military occupation considered small government?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #168 on: December 20, 2019, 08:09:21 AM »
https://www.axios.com/christianity-today-evangelicals-supports-impeachment-92956ccb-241c-48d7-bad3-d3e4ddd2d64d.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=1100&fbclid=IwAR2vy-6vcJ7rdbaz7C089pVToo5sIbTeohHVEUVE7c93wLN1vPuHJup8tbU

Billy Graham's evangelical magazine calls for Trump's removal.

Quote
"We have reserved judgment on Mr. Trump for years now. Some have criticized us for our reserve. But when it comes to condemning the behavior of another, patient charity must come first. ... To use an old cliché, it’s time to call a spade a spade, to say that no matter how many hands we win in this political poker game, we are playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence."

Huh.  Maybe there are a few conservatives with spines out there.

Waiting for Trump to say he prefers preachers who aren't dead and then go on to call Graham an 'unstable, failing, evangelical' in five...four...three...two...

"A far left magazine, or very “progressive,” as some would call it, which has been doing poorly and hasn’t been involved with the Billy Graham family for many years, Christianity Today, knows nothing about reading a perfect transcript of a routine phone call and would rather.....

...have a Radical Left nonbeliever, who wants to take your religion & your guns, than Donald Trump as your President. No President has done more for the Evangelical community, and it’s not even close. You’ll not get anything from those Dems on stage. I won’t be reading ET again!"


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1207997316424187905
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1207997319821615105


Christianity Today (or 'ET' as he apparently calls it) is a "far left magazine" that wants to see "your religion and your guns" gone from America.
A radical left non-believer like Mike Pence.  :lol

In the end, though, he's right. American Christians will generally be fine with him because he's on their side, and morality is a justification rather than a goal. He's doing all he can to make sure they're exempted from US laws, and he's ostensibly pro-gun and pro-life. That's honestly the only thing that matters. Plus, let's not pretend that Billy Graham was an icon of Christian virtue.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #169 on: December 20, 2019, 08:19:21 AM »
All of these sane, rational people you're talking about certainly see the democratic temper tantrum, but they also see that Trump ...  actually did what he's accused of.
He did?  :eek  Somebody should tell Congress so they can get some witnesses to testify to that then, right away!
Bill and Gary, the people I'm discussing this with, both recognize that he did was he's accused of, and if you were being objective I suspect you would too.
I'm not so sure they do.  But regardless, and sarcasm aside, all I can do is look at the evidence presented and the charges, and give my honest opinion as an attorney that there is not enough there to convict.  Which is why I am confident that if this were to move on to a trial before the Senate, or even if it could hypothetically have gone to an actual jury trial out there somewhere in a court, he could not be convicted.  There's a huge difference between "there's some evidence he did some bad stuff" and "there is sufficient evidence to overcome the Constitutional presumption of innocent until proven guilty and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed the crimes with which he is being charged."

Well, complicated problem.. Short answer? Of course there is enough circumstantial evidence to convince me. If we were ever able to get an honest accounting of what happened, by who, and when - note that I very much intend the implication that Schiff's Sham isn't that - I think he's in deep trouble and at least committed an impeachable offense.   I think in a court of law, he has a real problem.  In the hands of a skilled prosecutor, that knows how to put the pieces together in a cogent, logical way, we're likely already there.  His problem is double if his legal team is as we've seen so far.  He's not responding to a criminal trial/accusation, he's handling a media/PR problem. 
If attorneys always agreed with each other they'd be out of jobs (and manna would flow forth from the heavens, the land would be ripe with milk and honey, dogs and cats would live in harmony, and we'd all be generally having a grand ole time).

In any case, the point is that whether or not they think it can be proven, or they think it's an impeachable offense, all but the most stubborn and blinded know that Trump dangled foreign aid in front of a foreign government hoping to get campaign assistance. Many are just content to let it slide because it serves their best interests.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #170 on: December 20, 2019, 08:38:55 AM »
Where I think you run afoul is that society is composed of people. Not persons, mind you, but ignorant, irrational people. Yeah, sure, we could adopt a bipartisan approach to climate change and it would be great. Why haven't we? Because it's not what we want. We want to win and we want to validate ourselves. You say that we don't live in a vacuum. I would say that neither democracy nor society works in a vacuum, and human nature must be a driving force of them both. Sadly, human nature isn't at all on your side. In fact, it's the biggest enemy of your position, I suspect.

If that's the case, then, why the uproar over Trump?  Have you SEEN the comments section on Youtube lately?   Have you SEEN twitter lately?   I've several times offered Quora as an example of some of the more severe partisanship in our society, and some of you - I'm not saying you, El Barto; I'm not quoting anyone or putting words in anyone's mouth, just generalizing a response I've gotten more than once - have dismissed that as not being relevant.  Well, if our discourse and our government is to reflect that, it has to reflect it across the board.   
Because it's what we do. The same reason there was uproar over the Kenyan president who hated cops, hated America, hated Christians, and sought to turn us all into a socialist Moslem theocracy. Look, it seems to me that you're holding out hope that America will come together and elect a reasonable president who will right the ship and restore bipartisanship and a sense of decency. I'm simply saying that you might as well try and get a troop of chimpanzees to transcribe The Dance of Eternity. What you're seeing is reality. You're seeing Americans being Americans and it's foolish to expect them to change. The only change they want is for their own benefit, and the other side's ideals will get us all killed, or at the very least make it harder to buy the missus a new Chevy Tahoe for Christmas.

Quote
This is a very hard conversation to have, because it's multifaceted.  Remember when Hillary said she had her "public position" and her "private position"? She took flack for it, but it was one of her more profound, honest, and necessary statements.  I wish we ALL had a "public position" and a "private position".  We live in an age where opinion is taken at a level of fact, and "because I feel it, it must be true!"  I don't agree with that.  I have many "public positions" and "private positions".  Abortion.  Me, personally?  Pro-life all the way.  I've explained why. But I would fight to the death for EVERY OTHER American citizen (since we're talking about the U.S. government) to make that choice for him- or herself.  This is one of those cases.  I think Trump a piece of shit who needs to go.  I do NOT believe we should impeach because he's a piece of shit and needs to go.  I do not believe we ignore that he gets to pick his defense, and if he chooses to take it to the court, so be it; he doesn't lose that because he's a piece of shit and needs to go.   If we're going to accuse someone of receiving a "personal benefit" from an action that also has an official foreign policy aspect, we have to prove that, not just take it on faith because he's a piece of shit that has to go.
This also goes back to my post above. Americans are Americans and the reality is that presidents are above the law under this mindset. The argument will always be "they're just trying to impeach him because he's a piece of shit," because it will invariably be true. "But you've got numerous witnesses and a timeline showing that he did exactly what they're saying?" "Meh, they just don't like him."


Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #171 on: December 20, 2019, 08:47:26 AM »
To clarify:
Well, to clear up a point or two, I think he's guilty, GENERALLY, I don't necessarily think he's guilty of what he's DIRECTLY charged of.
I think this supports what I was saying.  And it's an important distinction.  He can't (or shouldn't) be impeached for something he isn't charged with.  Or at least, the way the system is supposed to work.  In that respect, it's no different than your everyday criminal trial.  You can't have charges A and B, get to the end of the trial and say, "Eh, there isn't enough evidence to support a conviction directly of charges A and B beyond a reasonable doubt.  But there was enough evidence that he probably did some other bad stuff he wasn't charged with.  And since we can't now charge him of that other stuff, we'll just find him guilty of charges A and B since, you know, guilty is guilty."

And, forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but you seem to be basically saying:  "Even Stadler agrees with the left, so anyone who disagrees is just blindly sweeping aside the facts that don't align with their ideology, and I'm not going to bother even considering the merits of any attempt to argue the contrary."  I think there's a lot more to it than simply sweeping aside facts that don't align with one's ideology.  At least for some.  You don't have to agree with what I'm saying.  And, heck, you're not obligated to not simply dismiss it without considering it.  But I think you know me well enough, or at least you should, to know that I have reasons (be they satisfactory to you or not) for reaching my conclusions that aren't simply "eh, this is my pat position, so I'm going to ignore anything that doesn't align with it."
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 08:58:46 AM by bosk1 »
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #172 on: December 20, 2019, 09:10:41 AM »
To clarify:
Well, to clear up a point or two, I think he's guilty, GENERALLY, I don't necessarily think he's guilty of what he's DIRECTLY charged of.
I think this supports what I was saying.  And it's an important distinction.  He can't (or shouldn't) be impeached for something he isn't charged with.  Or at least, the way the system is supposed to work.  In that respect, it's no different than your everyday criminal trial.  You can't have charges A and B, get to the end of the trial and say, "Eh, there isn't enough evidence to support a conviction directly of charges A and B beyond a reasonable doubt.  But there was enough evidence that he probably did some other bad stuff he wasn't charged with.  And since we can't now charge him of that other stuff, we'll just find him guilty of charges A and B since, you know, guilty is guilty."

And, forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but you seem to be basically saying:  "Even Stadler agrees with the left, so anyone who disagrees is just blindly sweeping aside the facts that don't align with their ideology, and I'm not going to bother even considering the merits of any attempt to argue the contrary."  I think there's a lot more to it than simply sweeping aside facts that don't align with one's ideology.  At least for some.  You don't have to agree with what I'm saying.  And, heck, you're not obligated to not simply dismiss it without considering it.  But I think you know me well enough, or at least you should, to know that I have reasons (be they satisfactory to you or not) for reaching my conclusions that aren't simply "eh, this is my pat position, so I'm going to ignore anything that doesn't align with it."
But what you're saying doesn't relate to the points I was making, though. I'm not suggesting he be impeached for crimes he didn't commit. The discussion Gary, Bill, and I were having was about voters being "turned off" of the democrats for the way they handled this, and my contention that they'd be just as turned off by the crimes that began the process. It'd be like becoming an OJ fan because you can't stand Marcia Clark. "Well, yeah, he did behead his wife, but the whole prosecution was racially motivated. 'Go, Juice, go!'"  I agree that this is a shit-show, but I also recognize that it's a shit-show of Trump's own creation, and it's damn sure not because "he's a piece of shit" as Stadler is suggesting, and I suspect the "on the fence" crowd probably sees it the same way. As I said, it's a wash.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #173 on: December 20, 2019, 09:36:48 AM »
So what happens if the articles of impeachment don't get sent to the Senate? Why would the Dems not want Trump to take the stand? As someone who considers myself a middle-of-the-road independent this makes me view this whole thing more of a sham than I already did.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #174 on: December 20, 2019, 09:47:18 AM »
So what happens if the articles of impeachment don't get sent to the Senate? Why would the Dems not want Trump to take the stand? As someone who considers myself a middle-of-the-road independent this makes me view this whole thing more of a sham than I already did.

There are a few options.  It's all up to the Senate.  They can sit and do nothing, in which case Trump does not get removed.  They can initiate acquittal proceedings and limit the issue to whether Trump should be acquitted.  They can move to start a full trial on some or all issues in the Articles.  And there may be other steps available as well.  But my understanding is that the above are the primary options available to them. 

As far as removal, the short answer is, we really aren't anywhere closer, since there isn't really a realistic chance of him being convicted and removed by the Senate and Supreme Court.  One can argue that the reasons removal isn't likely is insufficiency of evidence of a crime, partisan bias on the part of a Republican-controlled Senate, or some mix of both.  But regardless of the reason, the likelihood of removal appears very, very low no matter what happens with the Articles.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."