Author Topic: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation  (Read 18732 times)

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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #105 on: November 30, 2019, 01:54:38 PM »
Clearly this country is more doomed than even I thought. According to intelligent, thoughtful people here we've reached a point where political figures can no longer be held accountable because we cannot trust the motives of the people charged with checking them. That spells lawlessness and anarchy and that seems to be the way people want it.

+1

+1

#metoo...

Oh, shit. I forgot that that one was already used...  :biggrin:


On a more serious note, I see a lot of people complaining about the news networks, and without a doubt they are all a pile of shit. However, you can't complain about the ones that are going after Grabby since he's the one that kicked the hornet's nest to begin with. If he conducted himself with any sort of integrity then it might be looked at in a different light. But, he's practically spoon feeding everyone of them that have an agenda against every time he opens his mouth. I do wonder what some of them will do once he's out of office. Their ratings are liable to tank if the next president is in the ballpark of being sensible while speaking.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #106 on: November 30, 2019, 02:40:41 PM »
Funny you say that. I used to seriously wonder what Rush Limbaugh would do when Clinton was no longer President.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #107 on: November 30, 2019, 03:24:13 PM »
Rush Limbaugh never speaks about Trump. None of them do. Limbaugh spends 100% of his time bagging on democrats and that won't change when Trump's gone. He's savvy enough to know that's all his audience wants to hear. And in this case he likely can't stand trump anyway. Besides, he can do more good for his party by making sure the existential threat democrats pose is always being reinforced.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #108 on: December 01, 2019, 01:24:34 PM »
Yeah, this is going the same direction as another site that I just gave up on out of frustration (though that site was a lot more into the ad hominem "he has ORANGE FUCKING HAIR!" arguments).   

Some of you I consider friends, so none of this is personal, just an honorable disagreement, but it's easy to point at the GOP, it's easy to point at Trump, it's easy to scream "LIES!" and of course there are elements (or even totalities) of truth there.  In fact, in my view it's TOO easy.  It's also so TACTICAL.  I've said two things pretty consistently since November of 2016, and I'll repeat them again:  this didn't just pop up out of whole cloth when that fat f*** walked down the golden staircase in June of 2015, and we're not just "one moderate Democrat!" away from normal.  Nothing in the last page or so addresses either of those things.
 
There is a LOT I don't like about Trump.  His inexperience, his carelessness on identity politics issues, his carelessness with national security, his vague relationship with the truth, his focus on perception versus reality, his focus on public relations not substance, his focus on domestic issues versus international ones, his apparent disregard of China as an existential threat, his apparent disregard of global warming as ANY threat.  His tweeting.

There are things I like though:  His focus on economic issues versus identity politics issues, his refusal to cater to identity politics silver bullets, his refusal to kow tow to the "moralistic" arguments that have overwhelmed the Democratic platform in the past decade or so, his more pragmatic view of legislation and regulatory programs, and his refusal to cast Russia as the The Great Beelzebub. 

I am not in any way in denial about what Trump is, or what he's done.  I've said repeatedly that I believe Trump is potentially in a lot of trouble.  I disagree with some of the placement of those things in the overall fabric of our country. I find it hard to feel outrage over Trump's sloppiness with referring to "Biden" versus "investigating the 2016 election" (to me it matters not that some believe the Ukraine involvement is a "myth") when the Democrats have so successfully made the narrative about the sloppy concept of "quid pro quo" without completing the puzzle ("quid pro quo" no more proves the crime that Trump is accused of than a "dead body" proves "murder"; they both need significant, relevant causal facts to complete the chain).  I find it hard to feel outrage over Trump "damaging our democracy" when we've been on this path for the better part of a decade and a half, when the alternative - at least as of this point in the race - appears to be to me a deeply damaging series of economic proposals and a doubling down on the restrictive identity politics framework of the current Democratic platform.  I don't deny that Trump is hurting our country.  I do not believe it's going to take even two generations to right that ship; contrast that with the fact that we are STILL feeling the economic impacts of many of the programs implemented in the early part of our last century, and we're almost 100 years out, roughly THREE generations. 

So what's the answer?   Clinton - who DID, provably and legally, perjure himself - was acquitted on what was essentially a party line vote in the Senate.   I can already imagine the outrage and uproar - Jake Tapper will likely need neck fusion surgery after the breaking news is reported - if and when the Senate acquits Trump (Chuck Todd even referred to the potential vote as "the acquittal", present tense, this morning on Meet The Press).  But let's say they don't acquit, and he's done.  We vote in 2020, and we find ourselves in the very place I fear the most: with a platform that many in the country swallowed hard and voted for Trump to avoid, with far more skilled politicians in place, and the added advantage that WE NOW KNOW WHERE THE LINE IS.  We can quid the fuck out of the pro quo, but don't say the names of your opponents. Tie it to other, seemingly less personal things, like BIDEN did.  We can lie like rugs, but do so with a measure of plausible deniability, like CLINTON did, so we can't prove intent and/or materiality (both elements of perjury).  We can point fingers at unfavorable press and we can call political opponents names, but do so with an air of moral superiority, like OBAMA and CLINTON did.  Basically? Do what you feel, but DON'T DISRUPT THE APPLE CART.

This is Vince Neil calling out Nikki Sixx for HIS drug use. This is the married woman who cheated on her husband repeatedly calling out the single woman who enjoys casual sex as a "whore".   This is the Indianapolis "Suck For Luck" Colts calling out the New England "Deflategate" Patriots for cheating.  I just finished watching Game Of Thrones, so bear with me, but as I see it, we're not breaking any wheels here, we're just working to preserve the old order.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #109 on: December 01, 2019, 01:33:57 PM »
On a more serious note, I see a lot of people complaining about the news networks, and without a doubt they are all a pile of shit. However, you can't complain about the ones that are going after Grabby since he's the one that kicked the hornet's nest to begin with. If he conducted himself with any sort of integrity then it might be looked at in a different light. But, he's practically spoon feeding everyone of them that have an agenda against every time he opens his mouth. I do wonder what some of them will do once he's out of office. Their ratings are liable to tank if the next president is in the ballpark of being sensible while speaking.

No, not accurate. He's ESCALATED the fight, to be sure, he started fighting dirty, to be sure, but he didn't START it.  The media has been taking sides now for at least a decade and a half, and politicians - particularly on the Left, and particularly with Fox News - have been calling out unfavorable coverage as 'damaging' for years. 

This is almost the definition of confirmation bias.  There are at least three different locations where there is data that undermines this point of view regarding "spoon feeding" certain media outlets, especially as compared to that (significantly) larger portion of the media that is propagating narratives against him (there are too many examples; the 'quid pro quo' argument comes to mind, as does the attack on Mick Mulvaney for "admitting to the quid pro quo", as does the "there is no proof of any wrongdoing by either Joe or Hunter Biden" standard disclaimer). 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #110 on: December 01, 2019, 02:17:51 PM »
Genuine question here, how has Schiff abused his power? As far as I can tell he has done everything according to the powers afforded him as Chair of the House Intelligence Committee (if I'm wrong I welcome the correction).

I can't speak to whether he's materially violated any procedures or not (I'd like to know more about the whistleblower's contact with Schiff prior to the disclosure) but it's a POLITICAL process, and HAVING the power doesn't mean that the USE of the power is not abuse in and of itself.  The goal here CLEARLY isn't "truth" (it's not likely the case in any impeachment hearing, so don't now say it is) and it's not about rooting out corruption, generally.  It's about GETTING TRUMP, it's about damaging a political rival in the days before the election, and it's about undermining a legitimate and defensible election that some haven't come around to accepting (Nixon's impeachment was in his SECOND term, so didn't subvert the will of the people, and if memory serves, so was Clinton's). 

Quote
The Republicans' strategy (successful it would seem) throughout this has been to get Americans to tune out these hearings.

As opposed to the Democrats strategy of getting Americans to tune IN to these hearings, making this a moral play and hoping that at least some of the "guilt by accusation" sticks in November?  We wouldn't have to endure "quid pro quo" misunderstandings, or the false narrative about Biden, or some of the misconceptions/misstatements about the whistleblower if all the agendas were aboveboard (and for the record, I'm fine with competing agendas, but that has to apply across the board; if it works with the Dems, it should work with Trump and the Republicans, though it doesn't seem to work that way). 

I actually can't stand the Republican strategy here.  I'm not sure I have a better one for the environment, though, since this isn't about "truth".  Arguing the legalities isn't going to work though.  Doesn't seem to be much consideration for that at this point (case in point, they're not really discussed here much).

Quote
Finally, a gentle reminder that the head of the State Department that lectures the rest of us about how it is the World's Greatest Democracy © is the very same one that is now telling us that the procedures and protocols of the United States House Intelligence Committee are a useless waste of time. It's mildly annoying, because I can guarantee that 11 months from now Russia will get blamed for whichever dipshit you end up electing this time, whereas the reality is that America has cannibalised itself with this bullshit we are seeing now.

Sure, but why now?  I'm not at all arguing that "well, so-and-so did it, so I can too", but given that we're not really asking for any real "accountability" here - just vengeance - don't you see Russia being blamed for everything from the next dipshit, to The Astonishing, to the ending of Game of Thrones?

Chuck Todd this very morning put forth a theory that blames Russia for the few facts that the Republicans DO have in their favor (including some of the "intelligence" that Ukraine courts have issued rulings that purport to confirm that the Ukrainians ALSO meddled in the 2016 election). 

I happen agree with you in concept here, but I could write a novel as to the reasons why what is happening now in Congress isn't going to halt that cannibalization even a little bit.  There are no easy answers here. 

Offline TAC

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2019, 03:26:51 PM »
Stadler, you're going to give yourself a heart attack!  :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2019, 04:23:58 PM »
HAHA, no.  I'm overcompensating; we were watching my 2 1/2 year old grandson most of the weekend.  This is like an antidote to Blues Clues on TV and Thomas The Tank Engine track all over my living room.  :)

Offline TAC

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2019, 04:29:30 PM »
Blues Clues on TV and Thomas The Tank Engine track all over my living room.  :).

I would do that for the rest of my life.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2019, 04:43:38 PM »
On a more serious note, I see a lot of people complaining about the news networks, and without a doubt they are all a pile of shit. However, you can't complain about the ones that are going after Grabby since he's the one that kicked the hornet's nest to begin with. If he conducted himself with any sort of integrity then it might be looked at in a different light. But, he's practically spoon feeding everyone of them that have an agenda against every time he opens his mouth. I do wonder what some of them will do once he's out of office. Their ratings are liable to tank if the next president is in the ballpark of being sensible while speaking.

No, not accurate. He's ESCALATED the fight, to be sure, he started fighting dirty, to be sure, but he didn't START it.  The media has been taking sides now for at least a decade and a half, and politicians - particularly on the Left, and particularly with Fox News - have been calling out unfavorable coverage as 'damaging' for years. 

This is almost the definition of confirmation bias.  There are at least three different locations where there is data that undermines this point of view regarding "spoon feeding" certain media outlets, especially as compared to that (significantly) larger portion of the media that is propagating narratives against him (there are too many examples; the 'quid pro quo' argument comes to mind, as does the attack on Mick Mulvaney for "admitting to the quid pro quo", as does the "there is no proof of any wrongdoing by either Joe or Hunter Biden" standard disclaimer).

I'm doubling down. We all know that depending on which news station would be commenting, and which president they would be commenting about that there was always going to be "static/noise" occurring. And, yes Obama complained about Fox News later in his tenure. That was tit vs. tat.

Grabby went out of his way to make the news channels his enemy. In the earlier instances it would be like comparing a couple of young siblings that are whining about one another while strapped into the back seat on a long drive. It's very annoying to the adults in the front seat, but is it a surprise to anyone? Not really, and it's easy to ignore in the long run.

Trump's like that fat chick that called the cops on the kids that are running the lemonade stand. She walks by and see's that they're doing something that they probably shouldn't be doing. She calls them out on it, and one of the kids calls her fat. Then she whips out the phone and tries to get the cops involved. You know the rest of the story if you've been watching any of the news over the last year, or so.

That's not escalation. That's declaring war. Whether he's right or wrong to do so, you honestly can't expect the opposing side not to fire their return shots, can you?

By the way, I actually agree with him to a degree that the news is full of shit. But when they start calling him out on the stupid shit that he actually says? Then he denies it? Yeah, this is a whole new game. It might look like the same ol' same ol' to a few of you, but the difference is like playing a game of Risk vs. actually firing bullets.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #115 on: December 01, 2019, 07:24:28 PM »

That's not escalation. That's declaring war. Whether he's right or wrong to do so, you honestly can't expect the opposing side not to fire their return shots, can you?

Not only do I "honestly expect" that, but I strongly believe that the fact that they DID "return fire" is a big part of the problem.  Your assumption is that it's actually about "sides" and in my opinion, that's the wrong way to look at it.  It's the 2019, "reality TV" way to look at it, but it's wrong.  This is not a "war", it's not a "contest"; the press has one job, and only one job:  tell the objective story.  The decomposition in trust of the press isn't because Trump called them ninnies. It's because they bit and tried to "fight back" and in doing so had to take sides, had to be partisan, and - since "objectivity" by definition knows no sides - harmed their credibility in the process.   There are links here, Powerslave, that either imply this or outright confirm it; I pointed them out for Hef a couple days ago, and if you haven't already, you should check them out yourself. 

Jake Tapper didn't lose credibility - CNN didn't become the most polarizing network in cable news - because Trump called them "fake news".  You can't have it both ways on that.  Sure, there's a core group (the fabled "base", as if Democrats don't have a "base") that might follow him, but there are a WHOLE lot of people like me, that is, that know the President is full of shit, but also sees the lack of substantive analysis by those that should be providing exactly that.  Jake lost his credibility when he started making snide side comments, when he started smirking when referring to the President,  when he started adding in the side bar, muttered op-ed at the end of each segment.   

I watched Meet The Press with Chuck Todd today; another great example.  Network news, NBC, supposedly a high level of journalistic integrity.  He had on Amy Klobuchar, and delivered a perfect puff piece.  My favorite question?  "What criticism of your campaign has resonated the most with you?"  "Well Chuck, they've criticized my fund-raising, and I can't compete with billionaires, but I've raised more since the last debate than..."   It's like asking an interviewee "what's your biggest flaw?" and them answering "well, I probably work too hard, and care too much!"  Yeah okay.   Then John Kennedy came on and he turned into Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes; after Kennedy dared to defend the idea that there might be SOMETHING to the Ukraine corruption - corruption that the Obama Administration specifically targeted themselves - he shook his head in incredulity, saying "Senator please! Don't you fear you're doing Russia's propaganda dirty work for them?"   Later when John Kerry came on - see Dave_from_Manchester's posts over the last few days here - not a PEEP to Kerry about Ukraine, his involvement, or whether there might be some "there" there.  Not a word.  A lot of backslapping and camaraderie, but no real journalism. 

And INB4 the hack criticism of partisanship, I don't at all care about whether it's "pro-Trump" or not, I want it to be FAIR. Both sides, plusses and minuses, and no assumptions as to what side is "right", at least politically.   I'm fine with entities like the Washington Post, who are CLEARLY not in Trump's corner, but at least are doing the legwork and digging in on the issues.  I can at least trust their factual basis and that they won't play (too many) games with the story. 

Offline Adami

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2019, 07:31:16 PM »
Stadler, you're making the mistake of assuming that (insert ANY news network here) has a primary goal of telling the news. That is not their primary goal.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #117 on: December 01, 2019, 07:41:03 PM »
Stadler, you're making the mistake of assuming that (insert ANY news network here) has a primary goal of telling the news. That is not their primary goal.

Okay, not unfair; but if that's NOT the assumption, then all the criticisms that follow don't hold either.  If they aren't delivering the news, then whether it's "fake" or not doesn't really matter, and it's CERTAINLY not "fascism" or the "end of democracy" as it's been painted.  At that point, it's just propaganda, and the audience for that sector of the media to the left of "neutral" dwarfs that of the sector to the right.

And FYI, I'm sorry if I seem testy.  I had a great long weekend and not looking forward to work tomorrow.   


Offline Adami

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #118 on: December 01, 2019, 07:43:32 PM »
I didn't say they aren't delivering the news. I just said it's not their primary goal. It's clearly also what they (mostly) try to do, it's just not the thing they want to do above all else.

I say this because of the standards you hold them to. The news has one primary goal, and it's not delivering the news, so holding them to the standard of pristine journalism doesn't matter. The government has one primary goal, and that actually IS to govern the people well and fairly, so it IS fair to hold them to that standard.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #119 on: December 01, 2019, 09:06:47 PM »
Again, I have no beef with that.  But you have to hold them to the standard that corresponds to your critique/objectives.  I don't have any problem with your statement.  I don't really consider the representative democratic republic to be in jeopardy because of Trump screaming "fake news", so it's the same to me.  I don't comment on Jake Tapper, Chuck Todd, et al., because I have personal issue with them, I comment on it because others seem to be assuming, falsely, that they're clean while the evil empire of Fox News is destroying the country. 

Offline Adami

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #120 on: December 01, 2019, 09:11:48 PM »
Again, I have no beef with that.  But you have to hold them to the standard that corresponds to your critique/objectives.  I don't have any problem with your statement.  I don't really consider the representative democratic republic to be in jeopardy because of Trump screaming "fake news", so it's the same to me.  I don't comment on Jake Tapper, Chuck Todd, et al., because I have personal issue with them, I comment on it because others seem to be assuming, falsely, that they're clean while the evil empire of Fox News is destroying the country.

And I'd say that doesn't matter. People are idiots. You're not going to change that.


Hef can, but he chooses not to.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #121 on: December 01, 2019, 09:23:10 PM »
Again, I have no beef with that.  But you have to hold them to the standard that corresponds to your critique/objectives.  I don't have any problem with your statement.  I don't really consider the representative democratic republic to be in jeopardy because of Trump screaming "fake news", so it's the same to me.  I don't comment on Jake Tapper, Chuck Todd, et al., because I have personal issue with them, I comment on it because others seem to be assuming, falsely, that they're clean while the evil empire of Fox News is destroying the country.

And I'd say that doesn't matter. People are idiots. You're not going to change that.


Hef can, but he chooses not to.

Also, literally NO ONE in this forum is making the assumption that (CNN) is "clean while the evil empire of Fox News is destroying the country."
And quite frankly, the people that do (out in the real world) actually believe that are probably a relatively small minority. 

It is just tilting at windmills.....which cause cancer......which Hef can cure.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 06:01:29 AM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2019, 06:39:10 AM »
Again, I have no beef with that.  But you have to hold them to the standard that corresponds to your critique/objectives.  I don't have any problem with your statement.  I don't really consider the representative democratic republic to be in jeopardy because of Trump screaming "fake news", so it's the same to me.  I don't comment on Jake Tapper, Chuck Todd, et al., because I have personal issue with them, I comment on it because others seem to be assuming, falsely, that they're clean while the evil empire of Fox News is destroying the country.

WHO is assuming they're clean? You ALWAYS infer this stuff and yet... you play devil's advocate so often you've convinced yourself of something that isn't happening.

As part of that other site you mentioned you left because of the toxicity, even though it really isn't, it genuinely annoys me that you're now also complaining about the same stuff here that you were complaining about there. What's the common denominator?
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #123 on: December 02, 2019, 08:05:45 AM »
@Stadler, clear out your gosh dang PMs. I'm glad I wrote my PM in a Word document before sending it to you just now cause I am NOT retyping all that!  :lol
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #124 on: December 02, 2019, 08:49:47 AM »
Again, I have no beef with that.  But you have to hold them to the standard that corresponds to your critique/objectives.  I don't have any problem with your statement.  I don't really consider the representative democratic republic to be in jeopardy because of Trump screaming "fake news", so it's the same to me.  I don't comment on Jake Tapper, Chuck Todd, et al., because I have personal issue with them, I comment on it because others seem to be assuming, falsely, that they're clean while the evil empire of Fox News is destroying the country.

WHO is assuming they're clean? You ALWAYS infer this stuff and yet... you play devil's advocate so often you've convinced yourself of something that isn't happening.

Let's break it down.   All this is defensible and easily found, both here and in respected op-ed pieces.  You tell me where you disagree.

- The prevailing opinion is that Trump is wrong to claim "fake news" and attack the press.
- In whole or in part, at least, he's wrong because the press is the fourth estate, and as such an integral part of a functioning democracy, because of it's ability to frame political issues and be a conduit between the other three "estates" (traditionally, the clergy, the nobility and the commoners; in our democracy, further check and balance on the executive, legislative and judicial branches)

Doesn't that second bullet implicitly require them to be clean?  I think both Powerslave and El Barto said this (I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth; it's how I read your posts), or at least it's a required assumption of the things they did say.  If they are not a free-standing, independent check and balance on the other branches, how can they function in that democracy?  Isn't a "polluted" (my word) press just as bad as a stacked court or a corrupt president?

There are too many sources to site (I've already, at various times, given multiple sources for this) that "blame" Fox News for the outcome of the 2016 election.  To name two, Obama and Clinton.   Logic says that if ONE press outlet has that kind of pull, then they all must have some degree of influence (in fact, the very notion of the "fourth estate" is BASED on that perceived influence, if you go back and read Carlyle and Burke, where the term basically came from).   It's now simply psychology what follows.

So, no, no one has used the words "clean".   But the logic and the assumptions that most of you are working under DO NOT hold if they are not.  If the press isn't clean, isn't expected to be clean, then Trump blathering about "fake news" doesn't matter even one little bit.  Trump "feeding" certain networks (a myth, proven to be false, in sources given in the "Trust the media" thread) cannot matter even a little bit.  It can't be destroying any credibility, any defensible role in the democracy, if it's not credible to begin with. 


Quote
As part of that other site you mentioned you left because of the toxicity, even though it really isn't, it genuinely annoys me that you're now also complaining about the same stuff here that you were complaining about there. What's the common denominator?

Wow, okay, nice shot, but not going to bite.  The common denominator is that the conversation is devolving into what a twat Trump is.  I stand by my opinion, and don't apologize for it.  Nor do I feel a victim.  I certainly understand where most of you are coming from, I am not in denial about why you feel that way, and in many cases I even agree with what is being said.   But I tend to see a lot of tactical thinking in the world, and not a lot of strategic thinking.  I've got 52 years more or less of being wired to see things strategically.  It's a fault in some cases - I don't make a great engineer, even though that's one of my degrees, and I'd be shit on a reality TV show - but it's a blessing in others - I do make a very good negotiator, and I find it helps tremendously to see patterns and to see how things interact and unfold over time.

As I said, I feel the conversation is devolving into how bad Trump is.  Okay, fair enough.  I personally think that is wasted breath (which is the genesis of my comment).  But regardless of where we fall on Trump's personal characteristics, where do we go from here?   HOW did someone like Trump get elected?   Racism?  Economics?  Declining world status?   Identity politics?  Foreign interference?  Bad candidates?   We can debate what the actual reasons are (at least two of the ones I listed had almost zero effect, despite lingering beliefs in certain parts of our demographic) but look at it this way:  have any of those metrics changed in such a way that you KNOW we're not going to repeat ourselves, if not in 2020 then somewhere beyond?  Why would you expect things to change if no one is changing any of their behaviors?   If impeaching Clinton ripped the nation apart (I think personally it didn't go that far, but it created a so far unhealed wound in the country) why does anyone think this won't do the same thing?   

No one has to agree with me; if you don't like the argument, counter it, if you don't like that I MAKE the argument, don't read it or reply.   Since you brought it up, the other site was/is toxic because one or two people decided that I shouldn't even make the argument in the first place, and that it wasn't worth discussion.  These aren't windmills or strawmen - well, maybe they seem it if you don't understand them - they are reasonable positions that ought to be debated, and to the extent they are right, incorporated, and to the extent they are wrong, dismissed.  But we are where we are for a reason, and I don't see a lot of attention paid to where we're heading.  We're not talking about solved math problems here; we're talking about the evolution of human thinking and behavior, and it's subject to change.  No matter how big a jerk Trump is, there are multiple variables to the equation, and we can't keep over-simplifying this stuff.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #125 on: December 02, 2019, 09:35:14 AM »
@Stadler, clear out your gosh dang PMs. I'm glad I wrote my PM in a Word document before sending it to you just now cause I am NOT retyping all that!  :lol
Sorry, someone has been sending me selfies.   Not naming any names.  : )

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #126 on: December 02, 2019, 11:48:32 AM »
People are idiots. You're not going to change that.


Hef can, but he chooses not to.

It is just tilting at windmills.....which cause cancer......which Hef can cure.

You guys are giving me too much credit.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #127 on: December 02, 2019, 09:08:19 PM »
Stadler, Kattleox asked you WHO is assuming the Press is "clean".....and you respond with a HUGE post not answering his question, rather give a faulty proof that somehow we must all require they are clean?  Yeah, no.  If you don't want to read the LONG post below, the Cliff's Notes version is that we all HOPE and EXPECT them to be "clean", but with Human Behavior involved, we are more realistic in our expectations.  We have literally witnessed ALL branches of Govt and Press NOT be clean....LOTS of times.  He hope and expect "clean"going forward, but know that perfection is not realistic.  If they slip, we hold accountable...what we don't do is end our expectations going forward.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- The prevailing opinion is that Trump is wrong to claim "fake news" and attack the press.
- In whole or in part, at least, he's wrong because the press is the fourth estate, and as such an integral part of a functioning democracy, because of it's ability to frame political issues and be a conduit between the other three "estates" (traditionally, the clergy, the nobility and the commoners; in our democracy, further check and balance on the executive, legislative and judicial branches)
That may be a prevailing opinion, but there are a plethora of varying degrees.  Your statement severely oversimplifies the situation, and ignores any sense of nuance.  The President is wrong to attack the press in many ways, the most obvious when it is in response to an article(s) that are legitimately true or factual that show Trump lied or acted poorly.  Calling the Press Fake News when you simply do not like what they report is not appropriate.
As referenced above, the reason Trump is wrong, is because he is attacking the Press as a whole because he does not like what they are saying….not because the Press is the 4th Estate.  If the POTUS has a legitimate example of the Press saying something incorrect, then he has the right to say something about it.  We rarely see him address actual incorrect stories though, do we?  It is because he doesn’t like it when the Press writes things that put him in a bad light…mostly due to his own words or actions.
The Press being the “4th Estate” is important for the reasons you state above.  Trump is not wrong for attacking, say specific outlets/channels/reporters for specific wrongs they committed….what is wrong is specifically and purposefully gaslighting the American Public by attacking ALL the Press (at least all except those that fellate him) with the intent of undermining confidence in the institution.
Doesn't that second bullet implicitly require them to be clean?  I think both Powerslave and El Barto said this (I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth; it's how I read your posts), or at least it's a required assumption of the things they did say.  If they are not a free-standing, independent check and balance on the other branches, how can they function in that democracy?  Isn't a "polluted" (my word) press just as bad as a stacked court or a corrupt president?
No, it doesn’t in any way, form, or fashion.   Not even sure how you can make that leap.  Are you seriously trying to say that the Press must be perfect and infallible?  All three branches of the government, and including the Press as the 4th, are all brought to life and function due to the PEOPLE that execute their roles.  The actual institutions were also created by PEOPLE.  Both the creation of the framework and the implementation of that framework are done by living, breathing human beings.  They are fallible, and the institutions are fallible.  There are “polluted” members in the Press and ALL areas of Government.  With this OBVIOUS point, your premise pretty much falls apart.  We want all our institutions to be “clean”, but we all know that is simply not possible.
There are too many sources to site (I've already, at various times, given multiple sources for this) that "blame" Fox News for the outcome of the 2016 election.  To name two, Obama and Clinton.   Logic says that if ONE press outlet has that kind of pull, then they all must have some degree of influence (in fact, the very notion of the "fourth estate" is BASED on that perceived influence, if you go back and read Carlyle and Burke, where the term basically came from).   It's now simply psychology what follows.

Just because someone “blames” Fox News for the 2016 election doesn’t mean it is true or valid….it is just an opinion (unless you have proof of that, lol)  If Obama or Clinton acted poorly in regards to Fox and the 2016 election, they should be called out as well.
Not sure where you are getting your “logic” from, but when you use opinion as a basis for your conclusions, your conclusion will be an opinion.  And no, logic does not say that if Fox has that kind of pull (again just an opinion with no facts….facts matter, right?), it doesn’t mean they must all have some degree of influence.  Actually logic would seem to say that if a press outlet was consumed by a large enough number of people, it would likely have some influence on some part of the population.  Even if your logic is severely flawed, you are likely correct that Press Outlets have influence.

So, no, no one has used the words "clean".   But the logic and the assumptions that most of you are working under DO NOT hold if they are not.  If the press isn't clean, isn't expected to be clean, then Trump blathering about "fake news" doesn't matter even one little bit.  Trump "feeding" certain networks (a myth, proven to be false, in sources given in the "Trust the media" thread) cannot matter even a little bit.  It can't be destroying any credibility, any defensible role in the democracy, if it's not credible to begin with. 
Again, your logic and assumptions are simply flawed, and they require nothing of what you insist.
We expect our Government and Press to act with integrity and do the right thing.  However we also know that Human Beings are flawed, and as they are the living implementation of said Estates, we also know that they are not perfect.  That does not mean, that once their perfection has been smudged, we throw out all expectations going forward.  That is simply silly and quite an odd direction for your “logic” to take.
Seriously Man, with all the preaching of nuance you do here, you are really hitting the Black and White approach pretty hard.  To answer your conclusion:
No, simply no.  The institutions have standards that we all should aspire to reach, in ourselves, and in the people we elect to implement their framework and purpose.  Yet we Human Beings are fallible, and we make mistakes, and we even act maliciously.  Yet that is not a reason to write off an institution as not having credibility.  If that were the case, literally every institution would be written off as not credible due to bad actors in the past.  It is simply a silly position to take.  If there is bad behavior, call it out.  The individual reporter does not make the entire Estate illegitimate, does it?  A bad reporter or outlet does not negate the credibility of the entire Press estate, just like a bad President doesn’t negate the credibility of the office of the POTUS or the Executive branch.


Wow, okay, nice shot, but not going to bite.  The common denominator is that the conversation is devolving into what a twat Trump is.  I stand by my opinion, and don't apologize for it.  Nor do I feel a victim.  I certainly understand where most of you are coming from, I am not in denial about why you feel that way, and in many cases I even agree with what is being said.   But I tend to see a lot of tactical thinking in the world, and not a lot of strategic thinking.  I've got 52 years more or less of being wired to see things strategically.  It's a fault in some cases - I don't make a great engineer, even though that's one of my degrees, and I'd be shit on a reality TV show - but it's a blessing in others - I do make a very good negotiator, and I find it helps tremendously to see patterns and to see how things interact and unfold over time.

As I said, I feel the conversation is devolving into how bad Trump is.  Okay, fair enough.  I personally think that is wasted breath (which is the genesis of my comment).  But regardless of where we fall on Trump's personal characteristics, where do we go from here?   HOW did someone like Trump get elected?   Racism?  Economics?  Declining world status?   Identity politics?  Foreign interference?  Bad candidates?   We can debate what the actual reasons are (at least two of the ones I listed had almost zero effect, despite lingering beliefs in certain parts of our demographic) but look at it this way:  have any of those metrics changed in such a way that you KNOW we're not going to repeat ourselves, if not in 2020 then somewhere beyond?  Why would you expect things to change if no one is changing any of their behaviors?   If impeaching Clinton ripped the nation apart (I think personally it didn't go that far, but it created a so far unhealed wound in the country) why does anyone think this won't do the same thing?   

No one has to agree with me; if you don't like the argument, counter it, if you don't like that I MAKE the argument, don't read it or reply.   Since you brought it up, the other site was/is toxic because one or two people decided that I shouldn't even make the argument in the first place, and that it wasn't worth discussion.  These aren't windmills or strawmen - well, maybe they seem it if you don't understand them - they are reasonable positions that ought to be debated, and to the extent they are right, incorporated, and to the extent they are wrong, dismissed.  But we are where we are for a reason, and I don't see a lot of attention paid to where we're heading.  We're not talking about solved math problems here; we're talking about the evolution of human thinking and behavior, and it's subject to change.  No matter how big a jerk Trump is, there are multiple variables to the equation, and we can't keep over-simplifying this stuff.

Your LONG responses tend to be saying the same thing over and over.  Yes, we KNOW Trump wasn't born out of Whole Cloth, yada yada yada.  Yes, we KNOW you just LOVE CNN and Brooke Baldwin.  It gets old.
The reason they are Straw Men and Windmills, is that you are arguing against things that no one advocates for HERE.  You argue and pontificate against imaginary opponents.  Like how the conversation “devolves” into how bad Trump is.  First, the conversation HERE has absolutely NOT “devolved”, and the issues posters here address against Trump are done so with thoughtful and articulate support for their positions.  Your internal need to be a contrarian really isn’t needed here, and when it flares up. It causes friction.  In the end, it doesn’t matter, lets break it down:

- You think it is wrong for everyone to attack Trump as a Dotard.
- In whole or in part, at least, everyone is wrong because the POTUS is the head of the Executive Branch, and as such an integral part of a functioning democracy, because POTUS is the head of state and head of government of the United States of America, and Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, and is responsible for the execution and enforcement of the laws created by Congress, among many other responsibilities.

Doesn't that second bullet implicitly require them to be clean?  At least it's a required assumption of the things they say.  If they are not a free-standing, independent Branch of Government, how can they function in that democracy?  Isn't a "polluted" (my word) POTUS just as bad as a stacked court or Press??


So, no, no one has used the words "clean".   But the logic and the assumptions that most of you are working under DO NOT hold if they are not.  If the POTUS isn't clean, isn't expected to be clean, then everyone blathering about "Dotard" doesn't matter even one little bit.  Trump being called the “Orange Boy King Pussy Grabber” cannot matter even a little bit.  It can't be destroying any credibility, any defensible role in the democracy, if it's not credible to begin with.

So its OK/Doesnt matter if people bash Trump, cause he's not "clean", right?  Good.  As far as discussing things a bit more "Strategic", I am sure everyone on this board is up for that.  Discussions on what to do next are admirable.  But a word of advice....continuing to post the SAME stuff OVER and OVER starts to look like you are ignoring others opinions, and appear to even be arguing with some one, or an amalgamation of others that aren't here.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 09:46:54 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #128 on: December 02, 2019, 09:36:41 PM »
People are idiots. You're not going to change that.


Hef can, but he chooses not to.

It is just tilting at windmills.....which cause cancer......which Hef can cure.

You guys are giving me too much credit.

So modest.
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline Vmadera00

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #129 on: December 18, 2019, 12:44:52 PM »
Watching the impeachment hearing is hard, it feels like a lot of finger pointing and whinging that will not change anyone's mind.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #130 on: December 18, 2019, 01:53:54 PM »
Watching the impeachment hearing is hard, it feels like a lot of finger pointing and whinging that will not change anyone's mind.

Ehhh....I think it's pretty funny because this whole thing was a sham to start with and has pretty much blown up in the Dems face.....just like the Russia thing did and most everything else they've kicked and screamed about.

But, hardly a word in the news about the corruption in the FBI and the fact that warrant that kicked the whole russian 'scandal' off was obtained on the back of a bunch of BS.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #131 on: December 18, 2019, 01:59:11 PM »
Watching the impeachment hearing is hard, it feels like a lot of finger pointing and whinging that will not change anyone's mind.

Ehhh....I think it's pretty funny because this whole thing was a sham to start with and has pretty much blown up in the Dems face.....just like the Russia thing did and most everything else they've kicked and screamed about.

But, hardly a word in the news about the corruption in the FBI and the fact that warrant that kicked the whole russian 'scandal' off was obtained on the back of a bunch of BS.
Out of curiosity, sham or no, you actually think Trump is innocent, or did he do what they're suggesting?
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #132 on: December 18, 2019, 02:07:25 PM »
Watching the impeachment hearing is hard, it feels like a lot of finger pointing and whinging that will not change anyone's mind.

Ehhh....I think it's pretty funny because this whole thing was a sham to start with and has pretty much blown up in the Dems face.....just like the Russia thing did and most everything else they've kicked and screamed about.

But, hardly a word in the news about the corruption in the FBI and the fact that warrant that kicked the whole russian 'scandal' off was obtained on the back of a bunch of BS.
Out of curiosity, sham or no, you actually think Trump is innocent, or did he do what they're suggesting?


What they're suggesting he did is something that every other President has done to some extent or another. Trump is a dick....he's a narcissistic A-hole and not really good for the office. I don't like him at all. BUT....where the Dems lost me and where they've all but guaranteed I won't vote for any of them in the foreseeable future is the fact that all they've done for 3 years now is just throw crap at the wall to see what sticks.

You look at ANY congressman, President, Mayor, School District Superintendent.....ANYONE with the level of microscope that the media and the Democrats have been so hell bent on looking at Trump with.....since even before he was President.....and you'll find 'something'.

So they finally find a little 'something' and are like SEE...SEE...Told ya. It's a joke. Gimme that same microscope to point at Obama or Clinton or Bush....shoot....lets dig a little deeper into the FISA fiasco with the Russian BS and you'd find that Obama was right in the middle of it. But it won't happen. It's only because it's Trump and the Dems and media have had a hard on to take him down since before he was even sworn it. It's a joke.....it really is.

so sure, Trump is 'guilty' of what? What honestly is the horrific offense that he has done? I'd bet top dollar that if you peeled back the layers on the Congressmen/women that are leading this charge and defending it you'd find offenses far worse.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #133 on: December 18, 2019, 03:09:26 PM »
"But everybody does it" really isn't a very good defense, honestly. But I think you are half right about it, though. What "everybody does" is throw shit against the wall to see what sticks. How much shit did the republicans throw looking to see what would stick when Obama was in office? Fast and Furious, Benghazi, IRS, cash for Iran, and probably two dozen more I'm forgetting. The trick is to be just clean enough that none of it sticks. And one thing they've all been squeaky clean about is what Trump is accused of doing. That's why you had so many people in State amazed at what he was trying to do. I don't recall hoards of IRS insiders describing their shock and dismay about Obama's wrongdoings.

As I've said all along, Trump's biggest failing, and also his biggest selling point, is that he has no clue how to be president. Some people like it, "yeah, stick it to those bureaucrats! Undo the status quo!" Those people also have to recognize that it creates an insurmountable number of problems, though. That's the trade-off, and that's exactly what we're seeing here. He simply had no idea that extorting aide from foreign countries for use in his political campaign was wrong. He's the damn president and he can do anything he wants.

Honestly, do you think Obama, Clinton, W, or Bush would have dangled money in front of a foreign national in exchange for an endorsement? Or dirt on a rival? Reagan did, and Hillary probably would have (and would have been slick enough to not get caught). Those are people who knew the rules and understood the importance of appearances. Trump simply doesn't care about rules or appearances, because the people who support him don't want him to.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #134 on: December 18, 2019, 03:55:30 PM »
"But everybody does it" really isn't a very good defense, honestly.

I agree. I wish that especially in the political realm that when you were proven to have abused your power or done something illegal it was an immediate removal. I guess what I'm trying to say is that instead of being patient and allowing Trump to hang himself the Dems have been trying to kick the stand out from underneath him....to the tune of it's so off putting and so irritating to watch them do it.....it's FAR worse than what the Repub's were doing with obama......but the fact remains whether they or 'you' guys want to admit it or not that the way they've handled Trumps Presidency WILL BE the reason he wins a second term. That's how bad a taste it is. Rather than just letting him be the D-Bag he is and allowing him to run himself out of town after 4 years they've fired up his base more than he could have and made themselves a laughing stock due to their 'boy who cried wolf' routine of the past three years.


But I think you are half right about it, though. What "everybody does" is throw shit against the wall to see what sticks. How much shit did the republicans throw looking to see what would stick when Obama was in office? Fast and Furious, Benghazi, IRS, cash for Iran, and probably two dozen more I'm forgetting. The trick is to be just clean enough that none of it sticks. And one thing they've all been squeaky clean about is what Trump is accused of doing. That's why you had so many people in State amazed at what he was trying to do. I don't recall hoards of IRS insiders describing their shock and dismay about Obama's wrongdoings.

As I've said all along, Trump's biggest failing, and also his biggest selling point, is that he has no clue how to be president. Some people like it, "yeah, stick it to those bureaucrats! Undo the status quo!" Those people also have to recognize that it creates an insurmountable number of problems, though. That's the trade-off, and that's exactly what we're seeing here. He simply had no idea that extorting aide from foreign countries for use in his political campaign was wrong. He's the damn president and he can do anything he wants.

Honestly, do you think Obama, Clinton, W, or Bush would have dangled money in front of a foreign national in exchange for an endorsement? Or dirt on a rival? Reagan did, and Hillary probably would have (and would have been slick enough to not get caught). Those are people who knew the rules and understood the importance of appearances. Trump simply doesn't care about rules or appearances, because the people who support him don't want him to.

I have no qualms with what you've posted here.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #135 on: December 18, 2019, 04:02:26 PM »
"But everybody does it" really isn't a very good defense, honestly.

I agree. I wish that especially in the political realm that when you were proven to have abused your power or done something illegal it was an immediate removal. I guess what I'm trying to say is that instead of being patient and allowing Trump to hang himself the Dems have been trying to kick the stand out from underneath him....to the tune of it's so off putting and so irritating to watch them do it.....it's FAR worse than what the Repub's were doing with obama......but the fact remains whether they or 'you' guys want to admit it or not that the way they've handled Trumps Presidency WILL BE the reason he wins a second term. That's how bad a taste it is. Rather than just letting him be the D-Bag he is and allowing him to run himself out of town after 4 years they've fired up his base more than he could have and made themselves a laughing stock due to their 'boy who cried wolf' routine of the past three years.


But I think you are half right about it, though. What "everybody does" is throw shit against the wall to see what sticks. How much shit did the republicans throw looking to see what would stick when Obama was in office? Fast and Furious, Benghazi, IRS, cash for Iran, and probably two dozen more I'm forgetting. The trick is to be just clean enough that none of it sticks. And one thing they've all been squeaky clean about is what Trump is accused of doing. That's why you had so many people in State amazed at what he was trying to do. I don't recall hoards of IRS insiders describing their shock and dismay about Obama's wrongdoings.

As I've said all along, Trump's biggest failing, and also his biggest selling point, is that he has no clue how to be president. Some people like it, "yeah, stick it to those bureaucrats! Undo the status quo!" Those people also have to recognize that it creates an insurmountable number of problems, though. That's the trade-off, and that's exactly what we're seeing here. He simply had no idea that extorting aide from foreign countries for use in his political campaign was wrong. He's the damn president and he can do anything he wants.

Honestly, do you think Obama, Clinton, W, or Bush would have dangled money in front of a foreign national in exchange for an endorsement? Or dirt on a rival? Reagan did, and Hillary probably would have (and would have been slick enough to not get caught). Those are people who knew the rules and understood the importance of appearances. Trump simply doesn't care about rules or appearances, because the people who support him don't want him to.

I have no qualms with what you've posted here.
His base didn't need firing up. They're rock hard for the guy anyway, and will be no matter what failings come to light. Who he needs to fire up are the on the fence people, and being impeached won't sit well with them. The on the fence people tend to see both sides, and while they'll no doubt see the impeachment as a sham, they'll also see that Trump really did what he's accused of, and basically just sucks at presidenting all the way around. They'll also see that the republicans are every bit as involved in making this a sham. "I have no intention of pretending to be fair." Things like that offset the distaste they may have for the democrats.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #136 on: December 19, 2019, 10:01:55 AM »
As I've said all along, Trump's biggest failing, and also his biggest selling point, is that he has no clue how to be president. Some people like it, "yeah, stick it to those bureaucrats! Undo the status quo!" Those people also have to recognize that it creates an insurmountable number of problems, though. That's the trade-off, and that's exactly what we're seeing here. He simply had no idea that extorting aide from foreign countries for use in his political campaign was wrong. He's the damn president and he can do anything he wants.

And that's what elections are for.   I know that sounds trite, but we didn't impeach Carter because he had no clue (in a different way) how to be President. 

I DO think Trump did things wrong; I DO think at the end of the day he acted in some form or fashion to commit a high crime or misdemeanor, but it isn't what the Dems are saying, and he's not being impeached because he did.  He's being impeached because "by any means necessary".   

Quote
Honestly, do you think Obama, Clinton, W, or Bush would have dangled money in front of a foreign national in exchange for an endorsement? Or dirt on a rival? Reagan did, and Hillary probably would have (and would have been slick enough to not get caught). Those are people who knew the rules and understood the importance of appearances. Trump simply doesn't care about rules or appearances, because the people who support him don't want him to.

Written as you wrote it, Hillary DID.  Reagan DID.   

"Appearances" is not a "high crime or misdemeanor".   

We're - all of us, not just the Dems - going about this all wrong.   Schiff must've said the word "courage" or one of its alternate forms, 46 times yesterday, and yet he doesn't have the first clue what REAL courage would be in this instance.  REAL courage is to stand up and take a PEOPLE first position, not a PARTY FIRST position.   There are several ways of "combating" the problem of Trump that DOES NOT involve impeaching him (and bearing in mind, that he is subject to REAL criminal prosecution in November of 2020, so there IS a path to personal accountability).   The most obvious is pass a law codifying what is exactly the difference between Trump, circa 2019 and Biden, circa 2016.   Another is to censure him, and let the people weigh the consequences of that.  A third is to at the very least stop with the patent bullshit of "there is no evidence supporting the claim that Joe Biden did anything wrong in 2016" and remove the partisan discrimination.  If we're absolutely convinced that impeachment is the only course of action here, I'd even be happy to let this sit until after the election; this is not about punishing bad behavior or about hammering the "no one is above the law" nonsense (any party that has Hillary Clinton in it cannot in good faith claim that "no one is above the law").

If we're really going to settle this based on notions of "Presidential", the people don't win. The Constitution doesn't win.  What happens when we get a Paul Manafort in office (that is, someone who knows the protocol, ala Hillary, but doesn't give a f*** any more than Trump does)?   

EDIT:  CNN is having great fun, laughing and joking, about Trump's statement last night that "women tell me..." about how dishwashers operate, and misspellings in his Tweets.  Relevance here? None of this is about actual legality or the Constitution; it's about a profoundly unlikable and off-putting personality. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #137 on: December 19, 2019, 10:35:22 AM »
As I've said all along, Trump's biggest failing, and also his biggest selling point, is that he has no clue how to be president. Some people like it, "yeah, stick it to those bureaucrats! Undo the status quo!" Those people also have to recognize that it creates an insurmountable number of problems, though. That's the trade-off, and that's exactly what we're seeing here. He simply had no idea that extorting aide from foreign countries for use in his political campaign was wrong. He's the damn president and he can do anything he wants.

And that's what elections are for.   I know that sounds trite, but we didn't impeach Carter because he had no clue (in a different way) how to be President. 
Yep, and we will once again elect the president we deserve and reap the dire consequences. I've got no problem with that. I have no stake in the future and America will die the death it deserves. You're the one with a vested interest in the future. I agree with you that impeachment doesn't improve the situation, but of course neither does the status quo of letting People of Walmart decide who's up next.


Quote
I DO think Trump did things wrong; I DO think at the end of the day he acted in some form or fashion to commit a high crime or misdemeanor, but it isn't what the Dems are saying, and he's not being impeached because he did.  He's being impeached because "by any means necessary".   


Quote
Honestly, do you think Obama, Clinton, W, or Bush would have dangled money in front of a foreign national in exchange for an endorsement? Or dirt on a rival? Reagan did, and Hillary probably would have (and would have been slick enough to not get caught). Those are people who knew the rules and understood the importance of appearances. Trump simply doesn't care about rules or appearances, because the people who support him don't want him to.

Written as you wrote it, Hillary DID.  Reagan DID.   

"Appearances" is not a "high crime or misdemeanor".   

We're - all of us, not just the Dems - going about this all wrong.   Schiff must've said the word "courage" or one of its alternate forms, 46 times yesterday, and yet he doesn't have the first clue what REAL courage would be in this instance.  REAL courage is to stand up and take a PEOPLE first position, not a PARTY FIRST position.   There are several ways of "combating" the problem of Trump that DOES NOT involve impeaching him (and bearing in mind, that he is subject to REAL criminal prosecution in November of 2020, so there IS a path to personal accountability).   The most obvious is pass a law codifying what is exactly the difference between Trump, circa 2019 and Biden, circa 2016.   Another is to censure him, and let the people weigh the consequences of that.  A third is to at the very least stop with the patent bullshit of "there is no evidence supporting the claim that Joe Biden did anything wrong in 2016" and remove the partisan discrimination.  If we're absolutely convinced that impeachment is the only course of action here, I'd even be happy to let this sit until after the election; this is not about punishing bad behavior or about hammering the "no one is above the law" nonsense (any party that has Hillary Clinton in it cannot in good faith claim that "no one is above the law").

If we're really going to settle this based on notions of "Presidential", the people don't win. The Constitution doesn't win.  What happens when we get a Paul Manafort in office (that is, someone who knows the protocol, ala Hillary, but doesn't give a f*** any more than Trump does)?   

EDIT:  CNN is having great fun, laughing and joking, about Trump's statement last night that "women tell me..." about how dishwashers operate, and misspellings in his Tweets.  Relevance here? None of this is about actual legality or the Constitution; it's about a profoundly unlikable and off-putting personality.
At no point did I say he should be impeached because he's unpresidential. What I said was that it's because he has no understanding of how to be president that he committed the high crime and/or misdemeanor that you're content to let him slide on.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #138 on: December 19, 2019, 12:19:34 PM »
His base didn't need firing up. They're rock hard for the guy anyway, and will be no matter what failings come to light. Who he needs to fire up are the on the fence people, and being impeached won't sit well with them. The on the fence people tend to see both sides, and while they'll no doubt see the impeachment as a sham, they'll also see that Trump really did what he's accused of, and basically just sucks at presidenting all the way around. They'll also see that the republicans are every bit as involved in making this a sham. "I have no intention of pretending to be fair." Things like that offset the distaste they may have for the democrats.

I'm watching all this. I'm reading the letters, the Articles, the reports... I can't keep track of every last piece of information, but certainly as aware of what's going on as anyone else.  I do have my opinions on things here, and am trying very hard to temper them with the objective reality of both our laws/Constitution and the facts on hand. 

I'm never going to vote Trump; didn't in 2016, and won't in 2020.   But honestly?  I'm CLOSER to voting for him now than I've ever been since June of 2015.  This is a clown show on every level, and here's why:  NO ONE is stepping up.  Just about every action has an equal (or commensurate) negative reaction.   I also despise Mitch McConnell more now than at any point since June of 2015, but Schumer, rather than taking this seriously and acting on a bipartisan basis - as was done with Nixon and Clinton, where the "rules" for the Senate trial were hammered out on a bipartisan basis, with almost unanimous consent - he opts for the "Trump tactic", using his tried and true methodology, the press conference.   Pelosi had to admonish her own caucus for applauding the passing of the Articles (and yet, this is, claims Nadler, "a sad day").  This is not JUST a "Trump problem", it's not just a "Republican problem", it's an "American problem", to be solved by AMERICANS, working together, not doubling down on their personal agendas.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ukraine Scandal / Impeachment Investigation
« Reply #139 on: December 19, 2019, 12:40:17 PM »
His base didn't need firing up. They're rock hard for the guy anyway, and will be no matter what failings come to light. Who he needs to fire up are the on the fence people, and being impeached won't sit well with them. The on the fence people tend to see both sides, and while they'll no doubt see the impeachment as a sham, they'll also see that Trump really did what he's accused of, and basically just sucks at presidenting all the way around. They'll also see that the republicans are every bit as involved in making this a sham. "I have no intention of pretending to be fair." Things like that offset the distaste they may have for the democrats.

I'm watching all this. I'm reading the letters, the Articles, the reports... I can't keep track of every last piece of information, but certainly as aware of what's going on as anyone else.  I do have my opinions on things here, and am trying very hard to temper them with the objective reality of both our laws/Constitution and the facts on hand. 

I'm never going to vote Trump; didn't in 2016, and won't in 2020.   But honestly?  I'm CLOSER to voting for him now than I've ever been since June of 2015.  This is a clown show on every level, and here's why:  NO ONE is stepping up.  Just about every action has an equal (or commensurate) negative reaction.   I also despise Mitch McConnell more now than at any point since June of 2015, but Schumer, rather than taking this seriously and acting on a bipartisan basis - as was done with Nixon and Clinton, where the "rules" for the Senate trial were hammered out on a bipartisan basis, with almost unanimous consent - he opts for the "Trump tactic", using his tried and true methodology, the press conference.   Pelosi had to admonish her own caucus for applauding the passing of the Articles (and yet, this is, claims Nadler, "a sad day").  This is not JUST a "Trump problem", it's not just a "Republican problem", it's an "American problem", to be solved by AMERICANS, working together, not doubling down on their personal agendas.
Yeah, that doesn't really do anything but confirm my point. You're "closer," but still "never going to vote for Trump." As I said, his base will be on his dick no matter what, but that was the case 3 years ago, too. And to put it bluntly, anybody who wouldn't vote for him in 2016 but would now because they don't like the way his own criminality was handled by the opposition probably shouldn't be allowed to drive, procreate, operate heavy machinery, or vote. But, like I said, we get the government we deserve.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson