Outcry is the most underrated DT song.

[Fritzinger]

Speaking of the instrumental section, it's probably DT's worst one yet. Say what you will about the instrumental sections from Endless Sacrifice, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, or A Rite Of Passage, but at least during the sections themselves I could understand which instrument was supposed to be soloing at which time, & what emotion they're supposed to bring. With Outcry I have no idea what I'm supposed to be focussing on at any given point. Everything just kind of happens beside one another, & it feels very cluttered without any instrument taking the lead or driving the song forward. It's a total mess. It gives tension not in the "I'm so excited for what's happening next" way, but more like the "I feel uncomfortable & wish to stop listening immediately" way.

So yeah, Outcry is a bottom 20 DT song for me, & would be my least favourite off ADTOE if Beneath The Surface didn't exist. Fight me.

I think this is exactly what they wanted. The speciality of Metropolis' instrumental section is that it doesn't contain any solos, but featured everyone playing complex shit at the same time. And it has been suggested before that Dramatic Turn went back to many ideas that were used in a similar way on Images & Words (remember On The Backs/ Pull Me Under; Lost Not Forgotten/ Glass Moon; Breaking All Illusions/ Learning To Live.). In my opinion, Outcry's instrumental breakdown pays tribute to Metropolis' instrumental breakdown in that sense.

[The Walrus]

Sorry to be the bearer of negativity in what's supposed to be a positive thread, but I really have no idea what they were going for. Structurally it's a complete mess. There are so many different types of verses & none of them are placed in a way that feels natural or rewarding. The chorus is okay, but they only play it twice throughout the whole song. That'd be fine if the rest of the song wasn't clearly hinging off its strength. The way the third(?) verse just transitions into the instrumental section is awkward as hell, & makes the entire instrumental section feel more like a distraction rather than the tension it's supposed to be for the final chorus's payoff. Again, that would be fine it wasn't such a clearly chorus-based song. It feels like the sections from The Root Of All Evil but placed within the structure of Metropolis. It just doesn't work.

Speaking of the instrumental section, it's probably DT's worst one yet. Say what you will about the instrumental sections from Endless Sacrifice, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, or A Rite Of Passage, but at least during the sections themselves I could understand which instrument was supposed to be soloing at which time, & what emotion they're supposed to bring. With Outcry I have no idea what I'm supposed to be focussing on at any given point. Everything just kind of happens beside one another, & it feels very cluttered without any instrument taking the lead or driving the song forward. It's a total mess. It gives tension not in the "I'm so excited for what's happening next" way, but more like the "I feel uncomfortable & wish to stop listening immediately" way.

So yeah, Outcry is a bottom 20 DT song for me, & would be my least favourite off ADTOE if Beneath The Surface didn't exist. Fight me.

I agree with all of this except your vile heresy about Beneath the Surface. It's just a mess, it's not fun to listen to, it's emblematic of the "DT wankery" stereotype they've developed for themselves, it's tedious, and worst of all completely unnecessary.

[Revenge319]

How can you say Outcry is the most underrated DT song when Misunderstood exists?

[cramx3]

I'm a big fan of the song, it is underrated IMO but not sure the most underrated. That's up for debate, I personally would put Blind Faith up there.

[Northern Lion]

The song has it's good moments.  I like the instrumental part quite a bit, but I don't like that the intro is the same as the chorus, and there is just something abou the song that bugs me a little and as a whole it just doesn't grab me all that much.  It is my least favorite song on an otherwise stellar album... including Benieth the Surface 

And speaking of BtS, I really love the instrumental version.  It's very pretty and reminds me of my wife. 

[The Walrus]

For me it's that incredibly boring and uninspired vocal melody and rhythm, a problem that plagues the first two Mangini era records imo. Like that's the best they could come up with?

[Chino]

It was easily my favorite song from the album during that release and tour cycle, and found its way into my top 10.  I think Bridges may have overtaken it now.  But still a fantastic song.

I can never decide whether Bridges or Outcry is the best track on that album. I think they tie.

[bosk1]

Outcry was my favorite for the longest and was easily a top 10 DT song for me, but Bridges eventually overtook it.

[Trav86]

I love the big chorus and melody. I think the crazy instrumental was more cohesive and interesting than the ones on the few albums before. Those were just like play a riff, solo, solo, another riff, solo solo...

[MirrorMask]

I think the crazy instrumental was more cohesive and interesting than the ones on the few albums before.

Same here. I love basically everything about DT, except when the solo sections get too wankish and too disjointed from the mood of the song, but as crazy as Outcry's solo section is, it never bothered me and it has some pretty cool moments.

[gzarruk]

I love the big chorus and melody. I think the crazy instrumental was more cohesive and interesting than the ones on the few albums before. Those were just like play a riff, solo, solo, another riff, solo solo...

I was going to post something similar, there's some really cool sections there and the whole thing is very interesting vs other songs where it was just a 5 minute solo trade off.

[Fritzinger]

I guess the instrumental wankery in this song has some programmatic purpose. The lyrics talk about standing up and uniting and fighting. Well, maybe the instrumental part is supposed to portray the fight.

[Northern Lion]

It was easily my favorite song from the album during that release and tour cycle, and found its way into my top 10.  I think Bridges may have overtaken it now.  But still a fantastic song.

I can never decide whether Bridges or Outcry is the best track on that album. I think they tie.

Outcry was my favorite for the longest and was easily a top 10 DT song for me, but Bridges eventually overtook it.

Although my opinion on Outcry differs a little, I wholehartedly agree about Bridges in the Sky.  That is a beast of a song!  And imho one of DT's heaviest.

[hunnus2000]

The more I listened to Outcry the more I began to love and appreciate it.

One of the things I love about DT is how they start a song, take the song in a totally different direction, and then somehow they come back and bring the song "home". I agree that the middle section of this song appears to be chaotic but I always thought it was by design because this song is an anthem describing an uprising from chaos to order (at least in my interpretation).

Even if they are "wanking" (your words not mine) just because they can, then I say go for it! 

[Max Kuehnau]

The more I listened to Outcry the more I began to love and appreciate it.

One of the things I love about DT is how they start a song, take the song in a totally different direction, and then somehow they come back and bring the song "home". I agree that the middle section of this song appears to be chaotic but I always thought it was by design because this song is an anthem describing an uprising from chaos to order (at least in my interpretation).

Even if they are "wanking" (your words not mine) just because they can, then I say go for it! 

it's actually not, once you take the time (pun not intended) to analyse it (I did), you'll see and hear that it's very logical (and of course it's by design as well) One more thing, I'm in it for the wankery, so that section is paradise to me (as it were)

[Fritzinger]

The more I listened to Outcry the more I began to love and appreciate it.

One of the things I love about DT is how they start a song, take the song in a totally different direction, and then somehow they come back and bring the song "home". I agree that the middle section of this song appears to be chaotic but I always thought it was by design because this song is an anthem describing an uprising from chaos to order (at least in my interpretation).

Even if they are "wanking" (your words not mine) just because they can, then I say go for it! 

it's actually not, once you take the time (pun not intended) to analyse it (I did), you'll see and hear that it's very logical (and of course it's by design as well) One more thing, I'm in it for the wankery, so that section is paradise to me (as it were)

Can you elaborate what you mean by "analyse"? In a harmonic/rhythmical/music theoretical way? If so, could you share a bit of that analysis? I'd really like to hear you thoughts on this 

[Max Kuehnau]

The more I listened to Outcry the more I began to love and appreciate it.

One of the things I love about DT is how they start a song, take the song in a totally different direction, and then somehow they come back and bring the song "home". I agree that the middle section of this song appears to be chaotic but I always thought it was by design because this song is an anthem describing an uprising from chaos to order (at least in my interpretation).

Even if they are "wanking" (your words not mine) just because they can, then I say go for it! 

it's actually not, once you take the time (pun not intended) to analyse it (I did), you'll see and hear that it's very logical (and of course it's by design as well) One more thing, I'm in it for the wankery, so that section is paradise to me (as it were)

Can you elaborate what you mean by "analyse"? In a harmonic/rhythmical/music theoretical way? If so, could you share a bit of that analysis? I'd really like to hear you thoughts on this 

rhythmically yes. Disclaimer: it's been a long time since I did (about 8 years ago) and I don't have the written version anymore (I might write it down for myself again at some point though) All that aside, the beginning bit is mainly comprised of measures of 5/16 and and 7/16. Easy innit.  This is before the "real" madness will come up.  (Moving on from that one, what's tricky about most of what happens afterwards is that some of section is seven measures of 7/8 and they add groups of 16ths to every measure, there is a short clip of MM discussing it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_Hz9zR2eA
After that is when polyrhythms come in (sometimes with two factors, sometimes with three). Lovely. Then it resolves to 4/4 again. (and then we know what happens: the final two choruses, retardation and a gong hit. That's it, thanks good night) That's a very short version of the thing. I'll write an analysis for myself though for my own interest. I'll post it here if you like (once I'm finished with it) Just so you know: Illumination Theory is similarly hard to play (19 over 6- polyrhyhtms in that one, great). PBD is fairly easy compared to both these (although not necessarily easy. All three are far more difficult to play than say The Dance Of Eternity and harder than quite a lot or anything in the Portnoy era. Sorry to tell you, but MM brought that level of complexity to DT and I love him for it.)

[The Walrus]

Technicality is a funny thing. I dunno if it's fair to say those bits are 'way harder' than anything in TDOE given how technically extraordinary TDOE is for all players involved. There are a lot of classical pianists whose works are 'technically' way harder than certain Chopin pieces (like Scriabin or Ravel), which are also technically challenging in their own rights, yet those Chopin pieces can have stretches with the hands that are, quite literally, impossible for some people to play without modifying the original intended bits, even if the piece itself is overall less 'difficult' than the Scriabin etc. MP brought plenty of levels of complexity and technical madness to the group and MM wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for him, so I dunno if it's fair to act like MM is suddenly playing ungodly difficult drum parts and MP wasn't - perhaps that wasn't the intent but that's how I read your post, anyway. Just my two cents.

'sides... debating technical wizardry in art = yaaaaawn. It's like watching two math nerds go at it with quadratic equations and chalkboards. 

[Max Kuehnau]

Technicality is a funny thing. I dunno if it's fair to say those bits are 'way harder' than anything in TDOE given how technically extraordinary TDOE is for all players involved. There are a lot of classical pianists whose works are 'technically' way harder than certain Chopin pieces (like Scriabin or Ravel), which are also technically challenging in their own rights, yet those Chopin pieces can have stretches with the hands that are, quite literally, impossible for some people to play without modifying the original intended bits, even if the piece itself is overall less 'difficult' than the Scriabin etc. MP brought plenty of levels of complexity and technical madness to the group and MM wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for him, so I dunno if it's fair to act like MM is suddenly playing ungodly difficult drum parts and MP wasn't - perhaps that wasn't the intent but that's how I read your post, anyway. Just my two cents.

'sides... debating technical wizardry in art = yaaaaawn. It's like watching two math nerds go at it with quadratic equations and chalkboards. 

it wasn't, no. I just did my best to answer Friedrich's question, although I'm sure I could have done better at it or more elaborate. Silly me.  (regarding the differences about MP vs MM: I definitely could hear differences though (what I  percieved as vast differences) and what I wished for was that DT can explore more of the fun that The Black Page is for me, or anything that Frank wrote that is rhythmically complex (or similar things to his ideas) and they did, and I'm relieved about it) And I almost always listen analytically, so that's my approach to music (and DT of course). And you're right, technicalty can be percieved as a funny or odd thing. The chalkboard aspect made me chuckle. Thank you very much. I'd love to think of myself as that, a playing math nerd with a chalkboard next to my Ipad with my metronome app on it. Sticking my tongue out in the process too, hehe.

[Northern Lion]

That was awesome, and I suddenly feel really musically stupid 

[Max Kuehnau]

That was awesome, and I suddenly feel really musically stupid 

so do I actually, because if I would be more intelligent I would have been able to analyse a 5 minute instrumental section in 6 minutes and post it all here afterwards. Sorry my brain isn't that fast. Might take me longer than that. (Outcry and Illumination Theory feature my favourite instrumental sections in a DT piece to date nonetheless)
That's what happens to me all the time though, given that my brain is always on (thanks Autism spectrum, no, seriously), I always analyse everything (rhythmically, I'm a drummer, I'm a half-wit harmonically speaking, so I won't speak about that, I'll leave that to people who are more knowledgeable about that than me)

[Northern Lion]

That was awesome, and I suddenly feel really musically stupid 

so do I actually, because if I would be more intelligent I would have been able to analyse a 5 minute instrumental section in 6 minutes and post it all here afterwards. Sorry my brain isn't that fast. Might take me longer than that. (Outcry and Illumination Theory feature my favourite instrumental sections in a DT piece to date nonetheless)
That's what happens to me all the time though, given that my brain is always on (thanks Autism spectrum, no, seriously), I always analyse everything (rhythmically, I'm a drummer, I'm a half-wit harmonically speaking, so I won't speak about that, I'll leave that to people who are more knowledgeable about that than me)

My oldest daughter is on the spectrum, and she's pretty awesome.  If she will be able to do stuff like this some day then I consider myself a pretty lucky dad and I look forward to it  .