Author Topic: The Stand  (Read 9609 times)

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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2021, 01:47:05 PM »
I'm watching, and I like it.  Yeah, it's jumping around a little, but I think it's a creative way to show both background material on characters and also jumping right into the story.  I don't have any problems with it, and I doubt anyone who hadn't already read it would, either.

So far, so good for me (caveat: I haven't yet seen the most recent episode.  They could have fucked the whole thing up right there.).
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2021, 05:38:06 PM »
Nah it's still good, and it's fallen in line with the story, the first few episodes kind of jumbled things. Have no idea how someone unfamiliar would make any sense of it.

Offline axeman90210

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #72 on: January 20, 2021, 08:21:40 PM »
Yeah, I caught myself up this week and I'm enjoying it because I think they mostly did a good job casting it and I know the book well, but I don't know how much of an impact it would be having with someone unfamiliar with the source material.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2021, 10:02:05 PM »
So this is a re-imagining of The Stand, rather than an actual depiction. It's a story based on The Stand. The overall theme is the same, survivors of a plague meeting up in two camps, and the names are the same, but none of it happens the same way. New characters. Weird story changes just for the sake of being different. Lots of different settings. Characters are different now, either to make them more modern, or to make the cast more inclusive. Hell, there's even an Indian now. I'm pretty sure some characters are missing, but it's so jumbled up they might turn up at some random point.

I'm only three episodes in, so I'm not ready to call it a steaming turd fire just yet, but so far it's not really what I wanted. They've basically rewritten a great novel to make it modern and up to date, and that very rarely turns out well. It's like when they try to make a contemporary version of Hamlet and Claudius is the CEO of a tech giant rather than the king of Denmark. I wanted to see The Stand as it was written. Not The Stand as it would have been written if he turned it out last year. While it does seem odd to me, I can live with it being set in 2020. Just not written for 2020, which I think is what they've done.

The casting is hit or miss. The two characters I was most interested in are the biggest letdowns. Harold Lauder is a whiny emo kid who was probably only a week away from shooting up his high school before the plague hit. Lloyd Henreid is all of 20, tops, and more crazed than psychopathic. There's zero thoughtfulness to the guy, and not at all what you expect for Flagg's right hand man. Superman is alright as Stu Redmond, but he sounds about as East Texas as Emmanuel Macron. Likewise, Thor absolutely looks the part of Flagg, but he doesn't have any of the cryptic peculiarity that you expect. He's neither flippant nor scary. He's just kind of a normal guy with magic powers. Whoopie Goldberg mostly just sounds like Guinan, and certainly not 103 years old. Fran, I'm not entirely sure about. I'm holding out to see more of her, but so far she's quite different than what the novel portrayed her as.

On the other hand, I'm just fine with the black Larry Underwood. A friend of mine pointed out that making him black burned that which made him interesting, and I can certainly see her point. In the novel he had a distinct racial dysphoria. That's clearly gone. At the same time I never found that part of his Larry particularly interesting, and this guy does fine with his overall character.  While he's only been in one scene, I really like Tom Cullen's portrayal. And while I still think he's 10 years too young, Kinnear is nailing Glenn Bateman. I'm glad to see the cynicism back after Walston's version. Some of the minor players have also been good. I liked the guy that was Dr. Ellis. They cast the Farmer's Insurance guy/psychotic drum teacher as General Starkey, which I thought was a fantastic choice. Then they changed Starkey from super-intense and slightly nuts to a really likeable guy, ruining what would have otherwise been inspired.  :lol

Biggest problem, though, is cutting it all to pieces. This is a story that really works best in a linear fashion. Showing parts of it in flashbacks is OK, but this is all over the place. There have been times when I couldn't even tell when it was supposed to be. Like, "is this in Pennsylvania or Boulder?" It doesn't help anything at all, and if you were somebody who didn't know the basic outline of the story it'd most likely confuse the bejeezus out of you. Hell, I know the general outline and it's confused me a couple of times, since so many of the scenes and settings aren't what they're supposed to be.

Eh, I'm only three episodes in, and I don't hate it such that I'll abandon it. Maybe it'll get better. Based on what I've seen thus far, though, it doesn't look promising.



edit: Oh, and they did get one thing right, which they probably shouldn't have. The plague victims are absolutely disgusting. Covered in snot, puking everywhere, with grotesquely swollen lymh nodes which will occasionally explode pus everywhere. Really nasty. Of all of the things they could treat faithfully to the book they chose the one thing nobody wants to see.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 10:12:52 PM by El Barto »
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2021, 05:52:23 AM »
I'm very scared to see what you say about Trashcan Man....

Offline axeman90210

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2021, 06:03:58 AM »
Yeah, about the choice they made there... :lol :lol
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #76 on: February 05, 2021, 08:11:13 AM »
I'm very scared to see what you say about Trashcan Man....
Chinese transsexual now?   :lol

Really, I never liked Trashcan Man as a character. As a plot device he was excellent, but I never found anything interesting about what was going on in his head. And the part of his journey that actually was interesting, The Kid, has been cut entirely. That's who Marilyn Manson was supposed to play, back when he was just weird creepy rather than sexual predator creepy. There was some odd budgetary reason why they had to axe him, and they decided that The Kid was a useless character so they just excised the entire story.
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #77 on: February 05, 2021, 08:29:22 AM »
Not so much that they change anything about him, just they don't have the actor going for a subtle performance.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #78 on: February 05, 2021, 09:31:04 PM »
Really, I never liked Trashcan Man as a character. As a plot device he was excellent, but I never found anything interesting about what was going on in his head. And the part of his journey that actually was interesting, The Kid, has been cut entirely.

I agree on the first part, it is the least engaging part of the novel for me, until he meets up with The Kid. King laments how The Kid was cut entirely from the original publication.

That's who Marilyn Manson was supposed to play, back when he was just weird creepy rather than sexual predator creepy. There was some odd budgetary reason why they had to axe him, and they decided that The Kid was a useless character so they just excised the entire story.

Wha? I'd never heard that.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #79 on: February 05, 2021, 09:54:54 PM »
Really, I never liked Trashcan Man as a character. As a plot device he was excellent, but I never found anything interesting about what was going on in his head. And the part of his journey that actually was interesting, The Kid, has been cut entirely.

I agree on the first part, it is the least engaging part of the novel for me, until he meets up with The Kid. King laments how The Kid was cut entirely from the original publication.

That's who Marilyn Manson was supposed to play, back when he was just weird creepy rather than sexual predator creepy. There was some odd budgetary reason why they had to axe him, and they decided that The Kid was a useless character so they just excised the entire story.

Wha? I'd never heard that.
Here's the article about it. However, it seems like way back in November he was right on the cusp of being sexual predator creepy after all, so now I reckon that's what got his part axed, rather than the peculiar budgetary aspect. The folks at CBS seemed to have seen this coming and jumped ship early. Good on them.

https://consequenceofsound.net/2020/11/marilyn-manson-role-cut-the-stand-miniseries/

I'm actually quite curious how he would have played him. Would the Kid have just been a Marilyn Manson style weirdo, or could Marilyn Manson actually play a crazed dope-fiend redneck like King originally wrote. Given the liberties they've taken with the rest of the characters in the miniseries I suspect it's the former, but a lot of times weird-ass musicians turn out to be great actors, so you never know.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #80 on: February 06, 2021, 10:54:42 AM »
Hey it's been like forever since you and I discussed Lloyd. Would you really say he is "psychopathic?"

Interesting what you said about Flagg. He is a real enigma in the book, but I love what Jamey Sheridan did with him. When he meets with Dayna Jurgens, he is just sitting on the ground chilling, telling her liars sit in chairs. She has this look like "Is this guy nuts? Did we have him pegged wrong from the beginning? Am I walking out of here?"

On the other hand, I'm just fine with the black Larry Underwood. A friend of mine pointed out that making him black burned that which made him interesting, and I can certainly see her point. In the novel he had a distinct racial dysphoria. That's clearly gone.

Interesting thought, I am not sure what to make of it. I don't recall attaching any "racial dysphoria" to his character. The thought just never occurred to me.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2021, 11:05:14 AM »
Hey it's been like forever since you and I discussed Lloyd. Would you really say he is "psychopathic?"

Interesting what you said about Flagg. He is a real enigma in the book, but I love what Jamey Sheridan did with him. When he meets with Dayna Jurgens, he is just sitting on the ground chilling, telling her liars sit in chairs. She has this look like "Is this guy nuts? Did we have him pegged wrong from the beginning? Am I walking out of here?"

On the other hand, I'm just fine with the black Larry Underwood. A friend of mine pointed out that making him black burned that which made him interesting, and I can certainly see her point. In the novel he had a distinct racial dysphoria. That's clearly gone.

Interesting thought, I am not sure what to make of it. I don't recall attaching any "racial dysphoria" to his character. The thought just never occurred to me.

It's been ages since I read the book, but I actually remember hints of that to his character as well.


Still haven't watched the last episode, was going to last night but just had to rewatch Wandavision. I'll get to it after work.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #82 on: February 06, 2021, 11:23:04 AM »
I recall his mom says when she hears his song on the radio he "sounded black" and Larry plays up how that is the way to the top of the music biz. But I only associated it with his music aspirations, not a characteristic of his personality.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #83 on: February 06, 2021, 01:29:55 PM »
I seem to recall that the blackness of BCYDYM was a pretty big deal, and it affected him quite a bit. I don't recall the details, but I think the gist of it was that it made him a ton of money (which he was squandering) but it also put him in circles he wouldn't have otherwise been, and wasn't really at home in. I could be wrong about that part, but not that there was quite a bit said about the dysphoria.

As for Hendreid, I suppose I tend to associate anybody who goes on kill-crazy rampages to be a sociopath. I don't actually recall if what he was doing bothered him or not, though, and I suppose that would be the real indicator. What I do know is that he was older and somewhat contemplative, and that's totally gone from this version.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #84 on: February 06, 2021, 02:33:49 PM »
I seem to recall that the blackness of BCYDYM was a pretty big deal, and it affected him quite a bit. I don't recall the details, but I think the gist of it was that it made him a ton of money (which he was squandering) but it also put him in circles he wouldn't have otherwise been, and wasn't really at home in. I could be wrong about that part, but not that there was quite a bit said about the dysphoria.

Definitely, I just didn't associate race with any of that.

As for Hendreid, I suppose I tend to associate anybody who goes on kill-crazy rampages to be a sociopath. I don't actually recall if what he was doing bothered him or not, though, and I suppose that would be the real indicator.

That wasn't originally Lloyd's M.O. though, was it? I thought he was small time until he got hitched up with Poke, who was the real messed-up thrill-killer. Maybe I am totally misremembering.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2021, 09:37:59 PM »
So it occurs to me that this thing ended weeks ago. Not only did it end, but it went out with an entirely chapter. Yet, insofar as I can tell, none of us true fans of the source material even managed to get through this silly adaptation. Perhaps somebody did manage to get through it all, but didn't feel interested enough to bother chiming in. Either way, that doesn't say much for what they did. At some point I'll definitely make a point to finish the thing, but I hardly feel motivated right now. I watched the first three episodes in an evening, and will most likely do the same with the next three, but I can't say that I'm looking forward to it. Frankly, random Youtube videos have been beating it out.

Talk about screwing the pooch.

As for Hendreid, I suppose I tend to associate anybody who goes on kill-crazy rampages to be a sociopath. I don't actually recall if what he was doing bothered him or not, though, and I suppose that would be the real indicator.

That wasn't originally Lloyd's M.O. though, was it? I thought he was small time until he got hitched up with Poke, who was the real messed-up thrill-killer. Maybe I am totally misremembering.
My recollection, and this is dodgy, mind you, is that Lloyd was small time, but didn't have any hangups about being a full fledged maniac. I seem to remember most of his conscience being focused on a rabbit he killed as a lad. There's little doubt that Poke was a very bad influence on him, but he was a criminal, happily barreling further down the path of criminality, and that was going to happen with or without all of the Pokerizations.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2021, 11:35:12 PM »
Thinking about this... I don't watch any TV but seemed to hear a lot of buzz and see lots of promos about this series in the lead up to the debut. Then... nothing.

Re: Lloyd, that aligns with my recollection. He was certainly going to be a career criminal, whether or not he made it big at any point. Now that I think about it, what did Flagg see in him anyway that would compel him to give him such a high level role in Vegas? He wasn't a decision-maker, he couldn't delegate, manage a team... if anything he would have been a loyal and effective solider, but nothing more.
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2021, 08:48:24 AM »
I finished it, but I kind of feel bad for doing so.

I didn't have high hopes to begin with, so it's not right to say I was disappointed.  However, I would have liked some more.  I mean, they gave it, what, 10 episodes (I forget the exact number)?  And yet everything still felt rushed and jumbled.

I guess that most of the actors did the best they could with the material.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2021, 10:05:15 AM »
I finished it as well. Saw no need to drag it any further, it dragged itself enough already.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #89 on: March 23, 2021, 07:21:07 AM »
Amazon Prime has picked this up.  I really wish I had the disposable time to go back and read the book - I've forgotten so much of it.  A quick scan of some of the above comments suggests I should lower my expectations.   :lol
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #90 on: March 23, 2021, 09:44:38 AM »
Amazon Prime has picked this up.  I really wish I had the disposable time to go back and read the book - I've forgotten so much of it.  A quick scan of some of the above comments suggests I should lower my expectations.   :lol

As you watch it, you'll realize they drop theirs much quicker than you can lower yours

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #91 on: March 23, 2021, 12:52:38 PM »
Amazon Prime has picked this up.  I really wish I had the disposable time to go back and read the book - I've forgotten so much of it.  A quick scan of some of the above comments suggests I should lower my expectations.   :lol

As you watch it, you'll realize they drop theirs much quicker than you can lower yours



I may not remember the vast majority of the details, but I do remember that it's my 2nd favorite work of King's (Dark Tower series being #1).
That's a word salad - and take it from me, I know word salad
I fear for the day when something happens on the right that is SO nuts that even Stadler says "That's crazy".
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Remember the mark of a great vocalist is if TAC hates them with a special passion

Offline lonestar

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #92 on: March 23, 2021, 12:58:58 PM »
Amazon Prime has picked this up.  I really wish I had the disposable time to go back and read the book - I've forgotten so much of it.  A quick scan of some of the above comments suggests I should lower my expectations.   :lol

As you watch it, you'll realize they drop theirs much quicker than you can lower yours



I may not remember the vast majority of the details, but I do remember that it's my 2nd favorite work of King's (Dark Tower series being #1).

CBS's treatment is slightly better than the last Dark Tower movie.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2021, 02:52:35 PM »
CBS's treatment is slightly better than the last Dark Tower movie.

Well, THAT is NOT encouraging!
That's a word salad - and take it from me, I know word salad
I fear for the day when something happens on the right that is SO nuts that even Stadler says "That's crazy".
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2021, 05:48:23 PM »
 :lol

Online hefdaddy42

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #95 on: March 24, 2021, 08:57:18 AM »
Nah, it's much better than that.

Which still doesn't get it to GOOD.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2023, 08:20:56 PM »
Bump.

So I’m over 3 years late to the party on this one but I finally just got around to watching this ‘new’ Stand adaptation and I want to jot down some thoughts while it’s fresh in my mind. I see from the meagre 3 pages this thread was able to muster at the time the show went out that it wasn’t well-received on here, and I’m writing this at a time when anyone reading has likely already forgotten anything about the series.

Little background: The Stand is one of my favourite novels of all time (and a top 3 King book alongside IT and 11/22/63), I most recently re-read it last month - hence watching the 2020 series immediately after - and I love the 1994 miniseries. My love of both heavily affected my opinion of the new series.

Right, on with it. I’m gonna organise this from bad to good.

The terrible:

1 Las Vegas. I have no idea what they were thinking with this ridiculous portrayal of Flagg’s domain. In the novel and the 1994 miniseries, the whole idea of Vegas/Flagg is that it is an attractive proposition for those who value order and pragmatism. That’s why Glen surmises that Flagg will likely attract a lot of engineers and scientists, people who like systems and rules. In the 1994 series one of the first things we see in Vegas is people cleaning up the streets of the filth left behind by the ‘old world’. In the novel, anyone caught doing drugs is crucified and it’s mentioned that nobody feels safe drinking anything stronger than a beer.

In this new series, Vegas is basically a hedonistic anarchy, which is the OPPOSITE of King’s original vision. Everyone’s either drunk or having sex all the time and we get multiple scenes of huge orgies, people staggering around hammered, smashing glass bottles everywhere, and Flagg just watching it all. In the big execution scene of Larry and ‘Ray’ (don’t get me started), Flagg bellows out to his minions: “We are heading towards a golden future” -  how so?? Everyone’s either shitfaced, fighting or fucking, we see literally nothing else. Kind of a shallow ‘golden future’, no? You could have done all that in the ‘old world’. There’s no reconstruction of order, no working together towards any common goal, no hatred of weakness, indolence or slovenliness. It’s the opposite of the fascism King was implying in his novel.

Take as an example that ridiculous scene in the courtroom where Glen is shot (different to the novel). On the one hand I get the idea behind it – a summary execution in a courtroom is a good image of the collapse of civilisation. But everyone involved other than Larry, Glen and ‘Ray’ are, again, shitface drunk and/or behaving like wild animals. The judge (‘Rat Woman’ – don’t get me started) and the ‘prosecutor’ (Lloyd) are cartoonish. It was a very silly handling of what should have been a powerful scene. It’s Glen’s big moment, his ‘stand’. The character deserved better. Being shot in a jail cell with Flagg present in the 1994 miniseries had far more power. Everything about the Vegas scenes is underwhelming. Hell, after Glen’s been shot, Larry and ‘Ray’ (seriously, don’t get me started) get chained to an oven in the casino kitchen while gender-bending Native American ‘Ray’ justifies her replacing my beloved Ralph by blubbering to Larry about her fear of pain. Real progressive, film-makers. If you’re really gonna mangle the characters then at least have some balls and make Larry sob to the woman instead.             

2. The Trashcan Man (both the character and the portrayal). Mercifully he is barely in the show, but when he is, he ruins every scene. This is a dreadful, dreadful conception of the character. Gone is any of the nuance of the original character, the dazed and confused loner whose own foggy nature is a frightening mystery to himself.  The gullible and panicky abused child in an adult pyromaniac’s body who gets horribly terrorized and brutalized by the world (and, later, The Kid). This God-awful portrayal by Ezra Miller, who has Trash jerking off to fire and dry-humping a nuclear warhead, is dumb beyond words, and made me almost glad that Miller’s career in Hollywood is likely over now (seriously, look up the weirdo’s rap sheet on his wiki page).

The bad

1. Lloyd Henried (the character, not the portrayal). As with Trash, what were the film-makers thinking? Who on the writing staff read the novel and thought “Yep, the essence of this character is a ‘comic’ larger-than-life Vegas parody”? In the novel, Flagg chooses Lloyd because he senses that he’s a man who will be loyal, first and foremost, and that he has within him the capacity for intelligence if given just the right blend of carrot and stick. Lloyd grows under Flagg’s wing, he accesses skillsets he had dormant within him. This reawakening of him explains his devotion to Flagg. But this new portrayal? Why on earth would Flagg choose someone like this idiot, who – in contrast to the novel - actually becomes more and more stupid and goofy and arrogant and disrespectful as the series goes on?

(sidebar – my favourite single-scene character from any King book is Lloyd’s lawyer who walks him through why he’s facing execution in a few weeks. I really wish either the 1994 series or this one had taken 5 minutes to show that great scene. I also think King missed a trick in the novel by not having him show up in Vegas later on as Lloyd’s right hand man).

2. Don’t get me started on the box-ticking. What exactly is the point of turning Ralph Brentner into a Native American woman (who has basically no function in the film other than to cry about her fear of pain and then get silently drowned) if the series is simultaneously going to completely leave out strong female characters who were actually in the damn book to start with (Sue Stern, Lucy Swan)?? You could have kept Ralph, included Sue Stern (make her Native if you absolutely have to), and the same boxes would have been ticked. As much as I love Brad Dourif Junior’s portrayal of the ‘Rat Woman’…why change it from the Rat Man?

3. Omitting the entire episode of Tom finding Stu in the “valley of death”, nursing him to health with Nick’s help, and their journey back to the Free Zone. This was unforgiveable. The actor who plays Tom Cullen was criminally underused, because he was fantastic. In 2020 I imagine it was VERY hard for film-makers to decide how to write a character such as Tom. The 1994 miniseries bandied around the fact that he’s a “retard” (their word, not mine), but you can’t do that kind of thing in a show written in an age that turns men into Native American women, and I think they found a perfect way to portray a potentially problematic character. The Stand is especially heavy with the usual Stephen King tropes (Magical Black Lady, White Saviour, Retard With A Heart of Gold, Mystical Child Who Senses Things, Damaged Woman Saved By Good Man’s Penetration, I Am More Than My Disability, and last but never least with King - Salt of the Earth Bumpkin – although in this new series they’ve heavily debumpkined Stu Redman, possibly for the same reason they 86ed poor old loveable yokel Ralph), and I really think that having done all the hard work of creating this tasteful new Tom character, they totally wasted him. He is on screen so little that there is simply no emotional charge to his big goodbye to Nick before he goes West to spy, as there was in the 1994 series (such a beautiful little touch, Rob Lowe taking the tag off Tom’s new jacket and Tom saying he always forgets things like that). We never get to see his friendship with Nick grow. There’s no tenderness to the relationship.

Speaking of leaving out important scenes, I think it was a mistake to have Judge Farris (now a woman, don’t get me sta…oh wait, I covered that) be killed off-camera. While a relatively minor episode in the story, it still matters because it’s the first time things don’t go right for Flagg, and we see his subsequent loss of composure. It’s an important moment and they should have shown it.

4. Nick Andros. What the hell happened to him?? He got blown up and then was never mentioned again. You went to all that trouble in the first half of the series to whack people over the head with the Nick-as-Jesus imagery only to then forget the whole “sacrifice and resurrection” part. Very disappointing. Nick is basically a minor character in this series.

5. Whoopi Goldberg and Whatshisface Flaggskaard (not gonna attempt to spell his name) as Mother Abagail and Flagg. Neither performance can hold a candle to Ruby Dee or Jamie Sheridan. Flagg here has zero charisma or menace, he spends the whole film either mumbling or shouting, there is none of the playful manic humour Sheridan brought to the role. And Goldberg is just…kind of there. She speaks her lines like a perfectly healthy and slightly bored 70-odd year old. There is no magic to her character, you’re not drawn to her in any way. Just as Flagg inspires no awe (maybe that’s why everyone’s always drunk over there), Abagail evokes no sense of wonder.     


The so-so

1. Nadine Cross (the character, not the portrayal, which is suprisingly good). I think that people who haven’t read the book would have been VERY confused by the relationship between Nadine and Harold in this series. Harold (I’ll come to him soon) begins the story as a relatively sweet and innocent boy who has a seed of ‘evil’ in him, which is born of loneliness and rejection; a seed that could have been weeded out with kinder breaks and a bit more courage on his part. Harold serves as the inverse of Larry (remember that Larry greatly admires Harold before he meets him, because he led their party to Boulder). Harold is a nice kid with a bit of bad in him and Larry is a selfish piece of shit with a bit of good in him. Both of their fates turn upon how they react to being rejected by a woman they are obsessed with (Harold with Fran, Larry with Nadine). Larry becomes good as the novel goes on and Harold becomes bad.

But there’s a central problem at the heart of the Harold-Nadine partnership: what would make this intelligent boy who has shown a capacity for great kindness, and who still wrestles with the good in himself right up to the very end, be willing to do such an awful, evil thing as sacrifice all those innocent people with the bomb he makes? In both the novel and the 1994 series, King answers this dilemma with profound insight into the human condition: Harold gets to do Laura San Giacomo up the arse for a month. But in this new series, Harold and Nadine don’t even live together. Flagg promises Harold anything he wants with Nadine, minus the only type of sex deemed valid by Christians and demons alike, and yet he spends most of the time being nagged by her. It’s a very muddled bit of writing and if I hadn’t read the book I’d have had no idea why these 2 were doing any of this together.

2. Stu and Fran’s decision to leave the Free Zone. In the novel it’s implied they do it because they’ve become outsiders in Boulder; a kooky link to the old ‘magical’ Free Zone that is quickly dying and being replaced by a regular society, as the events of the big ‘Stand’ pass away into legend and fewer and fewer people even know who Nick, Larry and Abagail were outside of the stories. In this series, Stu and Frannie come to the realization that humanity is just going to start doing the same dumb shit all over again (I don’t know if the film-makers intended this but it amused me that this revelation plays out over a montage of people line-dancing) and they leave the Free Zone for the far more mundane reason of being afraid of crime. I dunno, it just bugged me a bit. I wish they’d explored more the idea of heroic actions fading away into myth and the heroes becoming just regular people again, as the novel does.

3. King’s ‘specially written final episode’. Meh. I know it’s always gnawed at King that Frannie never got to make her own stand, and I guess this is one way of correcting that, but it still felt out of place. And I imagine Child Mother Abagail was VERY confusing if you’re not deep into King’s overall universe (there are a tonne of references to other King stories in this coda, from IT to 1922 to Dolores Claiborne to In The Tall Grass to The Dark Tower, and if you don’t know them, this coda raises more questions than it answers in my opinion). 

The good

1. Basically almost all the other main characters. Stu, Fran, Glen, Joe, Dayna and so on. I also loved that they included the character of Rita Blakemore, in a superb performance by Heather Graham, and the decision to switch the scene of Larry going through the Lincoln Tunnel to going through the sewer was a good one. That was a brilliant scene. I also enjoyed seeing that very minor character (who is in the novel) who survives the plague and who’s decided to head to Yankee Stadium and tease one out on home plate. I actually think King missed another trick in the novel by not having a chapter devoted to inspirational people like this guy. We got a chapter of vignettes showing how people died of non-flu causes after the initial run of the virus, and it’s very grim reading. I would have liked a mirror chapter on people just having the time of their lives in a mostly dead world. Rocking out naked in the Oval Office, whacking golf balls out of the Statue of Liberty’s crown, shooting hoops at Madison Square Garden, checking out the rockets at NASA, rummaging through the CIA archives, that kind of thing. But I digress.

The excellent

1. Larry Underwood and Harold Lauder: the 2 MVPs of the series. Owen Teague as Harold in particular handled the material very well. I felt appropriate amounts of sympathy, empathy, admiration and revulsion for him throughout. Captain Trips was supposed to be Harold’s big adventure, the event whereby the girl who wouldn’t have him if he were the last man on earth finds herself (for a while) with the last man on earth. And the tragedy of the Harold Lauders of the world is that people like him always end up small and alone. The circumstances never matter, it’s the way they’re wired. Becoming ‘Hawk’ is a nice idea but it never ends up that way for them. I thought that Owen Teague stole every scene he was in.  Well done that man.

2. Weirdly enough for such a (mostly) poorly-written adaptation, I thought some of the original lines that are not in the book were very good. “Guys like him don’t stop following orders just because the orders stop making sense” (the general in charge of Project Blue, speaking about the guy sent to kill Stu). “Up and running is what got us here. I think it’s high time we tried down and standing still” (Glen – though I loved the delivery of that line as much as the line itself). “This world has never been interested in anything I have to offer” (Nick). “Nadine and Mommy Nadine are 2 different people” (Joe, and his whispered delivery of this line to Larry actually chilled me). These and other lines like it suggest to me that this series was caught between two conflicting goals – to be a faithful adaptation of King’s book, but also to be its own thing.

3. The use of songs. They were all, with one exception, really well chosen and I was introduced to some interesting artists because of it. The one disappointment happens during the beautifully filmed montage of Larry, Stu, Glen, Ray and Kojak heading West. I was looking forward to seeing how they did that (in the 1994 series it’s magnificent), and visually it didn’t disappoint. But for the music they selected a dreary Radiohead b-side from the OK Computer sessions. Why?? I mean lyrically it fit but musically it somewhat lacked the majesty the scenery demanded. When I'm watching 4 people heading across America for a showdown with ultimate evil I neither need nor want Thom Yorke warbling away in the background. 


Conclusion: despite all the negatives I’ve written above, I did on the whole enjoy it a lot. It won’t replace the 1994 series in my affections, but I grew up with that and it’s a very important series to me, so it was never likely to happen. And I do think that, despite the much longer run-time, this new version somehow covers less ground and has much less characterisation than the earlier one (the same thing happened with the recent 2-part IT remake, which was an hour longer but still much less rich in its characterisation than the 1990 version). But for what it is and what it offers, I think it's a worthy series and I'll be watching it again in a month or so after the initial impressions have settled a bit

So them’s my thoughts. Dunno if anyone will read this, or indeed if anyone even remembers anything about the show enough to relate to anything I’ve written, but my suggestion is to perhaps give it another try if you weren’t impressed the first time. I think it does have a lot to offer, flaws and all.             
« Last Edit: August 08, 2023, 09:07:48 PM by Dave_Manchester »

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #97 on: August 08, 2023, 09:16:04 PM »
People will read this.

It seems to me that most people did the same thing I did. Watch the first three episodes, decide "yeah, it's alright, but I think I'll take a break from it for a while," and then quickly forgot the thing ever existed. You might be the first person I've heard from who actually watched the whole thing. And truth be told, some of the spoilers you've provided don't make me want to give it another chance. My opinion on those three episodes was that it was a reimagining of The Stand. It wasn't a retelling of it, like the original miniseries, but rather a new story based on the original. Nothing I saw made me relate to any of the characters or any of the circumstances as I did with the novel and the miniseries. Even the trip through the sewer (which struck me as an obvious cost-cutting move) seemed needlessly different. Your very insightful write up of it kind of suggests that neither the characters nor the circumstances will ever fall in line with what I was hoping for.

Quote
1. Larry Underwood and Harold Lauder: the 2 MVPs of the series. Owen Teague as Harold in particular handled the material very well. I felt appropriate amounts of sympathy, empathy, admiration and revulsion for him throughout. Captain Trips was supposed to be Harold’s big adventure, the event whereby the girl who wouldn’t have him if he were the last man on earth finds herself (for a while) with the last man on earth. And the tragedy of the Harold Lauders of the world is that people like him always end up small and alone. The circumstances never matter, it’s the way they’re wired. Becoming ‘Hawk’ is a nice idea but it never ends up that way for them. I thought that Owen Teague stole every scene he was in.  Well done that man.
This is the only thing you wrote that actually does inspire me. Lloyd and Harold/Hawk were the two most interesting characters in the novel, I thought. They completely ruined Lloyd and that's a shame. I didn't like Harold at all in the 3 episodes I saw, but I will say that they certainly created a ton of room for improvement and growth in the lad. Seems like he did just that. Still, I'd have liked to see him more in line with the way he was originally written (including tubby). And, buggering Nadine morning, day, and night was also a big part of his transformation.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #98 on: August 08, 2023, 09:23:56 PM »
The novel is a Top 5 King work for me, and I too have a fondness for the 1994 miniseries. It isn't a masterpiece, but it hit all the right notes.

Before reading all that I had zero interest in watching this. Now I have -206 interest in watching this. As I have not seen it, I cannot comment on all the details here, but based on what you said you liked from the novel and miniseries, my feelings would probably be the same as yours.

I had considered El Barto the forum's resident expert on The Stand, with me as his humble understudy, but your post might make me rethink that.

Edit... and sure enough he posted before I got a chance to update mine.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2023, 09:29:35 PM by Cool Chris »
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #99 on: August 08, 2023, 09:35:57 PM »
The novel is a Top 5 King work for me, and I too have a fondness for the 1994 miniseries. It isn't a masterpiece, but it hit all the right notes.

Before reading all that I had zero interest in watching this. Now I have -206 interest in watching this. As I have not seen it, I cannot comment on all the details here, but based on what you said you liked from the novel and miniseries, my feelings would probably be the same as yours.

I had considered El Barto the forum's resident expert on The Stand, with me as his humble understudy, but your post might make me rethink that.


Edit... and sure enough he posted before I got a chance to update mine.
Not even close. It's just a bit fresher for me. And while I enjoy it a great deal, and appreciate what it has to offer, it doesn't resonate with me the way it does for others.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #100 on: August 09, 2023, 09:37:52 AM »

The excellent

1. Larry Underwood and Harold Lauder: the 2 MVPs of the series. Owen Teague as Harold in particular handled the material very well.
Quote
2. Weirdly enough for such a (mostly) poorly-written adaptation, I thought some of the original lines that are not in the book were very good.

I actually went back and skimmed through the first episode to check out Harold, and I saw your point there pretty well. I still think he's a whiny emo kid who was only days away from shooting up his highschool, but his time in Boulder looked to be very well done. (And I'd forgotten what an awful bitch they made Frannie.) The voiceover while he's writing his journal about the conflict between his newfound potential, and what embracing it would mean to his true self, while showing scenes of him adapting to his new life as Hawk, both sincere and amazingly contrived, was a very good 5 minutes of film. It actually makes me think there could be some real gems in there.

The problem is that finding them would mean putting up with a great deal that just annoys me to no end.  :lol
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Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #101 on: August 09, 2023, 11:10:09 AM »
I remember being excited for this new adaptation but then I started hearing things that didn't make it sound great. I blind bought the original mini-series on VHS back in the day with no knowledge of what it even really was. I fell in love with it and the fact that King himself wrote the screenplay made it that much better to me. I actually finally upgraded to the Blu-ray of the original recently. Dave's review makes me even more less likely to watch the newer one.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 02:48:19 PM by ProfessorPeart »
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Offline vtgrad

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Re: The Stand
« Reply #102 on: August 10, 2023, 02:40:31 PM »
Having just finished the re-read of The Stand myself, I have two opinions about the 2020 miniseries... or at least the three episodes that I watched:

1) They botched Tom... both from a writing standpoint and a casting standpoint (I can't see the actor as anyone but Mag's drug addicted son in Season 2 of Justified, so that's my own shortcoming).  Where's Tom's love?  His love for Ralph, Stu, and Nick especially.  In the episodes I watched, I saw no love and no attachment between any of the characters.  Hell, Nick basically functioned as a bodyguard for Mother (I won't start on Mother's casting); and I saw no love at all between Nick & Tom.  And on the heals of that...

2) Where's any of the love that we see in the book?  I saw nothing but slightly veiled distrust and even modest hatred between some of these characters.  Where's the love that turns the pages of the book, seeming of its own accord?  Hell, even Lloyd had love for Flagg... "he trusted me, and he saved me.  I'm stickin'".  Even Larry loved himself in the beginning (there's something in you that's like biting on tinfoil; you'll make it, guys like you always do; etc); he even thought of trying to get off the committee and grabbing some love while he could before the West swallowed them up.  No love, no light... no point in continuing forward.

Adding to the above, Frannie was turned into a suicidal whiny b!tch (my wife's words) with no familial love at all (I don't remember any interactions with her father/mother in the portion of the series that I watched).  Frannie is very strong in the book and she's more into eating that "big, sloppy slice of strawberry pie " than cutting her own throat with the knife.

I also am a big fan of the '94 series so that colors my perceptions a bit; but I'm a bigger fan of the source material (the expanded version including The Kidd... "don't tell me I'll tell you.  Can you dig that happy crappy?") and the new series wasn't even close to an adaptation, for me personally.  It was a completely new story with characters that I would just as soon left in the Lincoln tunnel in favor of joining my man in Yankee Stadium for quick wank.
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