Is Dream Theater's current approach incompatible with the social media age?

[bosk1]

This isn't meant to be a complaint thread, or to suggest that the band is somehow doing something "wrong."  But I have long observed a trend in posting here.  When info on a new album is released, forum activity increases significantly.  We get more new members, older members become MUCH more active, and there is a ton of chatter.  Right after the album drops, there is a bit of a dropoff after the initial couple of weeks of initial impressions about the album.  Then after the first leg or so of a tour, there is a significant dropoff of activity and it gets pretty quiet until news of the next album after that.

That's kind of just how it has gone the last few album cycles.  And that is fine.  There are a lot of bands out there that follow a cycle similar to DT's.  In fact, I'd say that most active bands are fairly similar.  It used to be in earlier days of the forums that we still had a ton of activity in between.  Nowadays, it feels like people have moved on from that, and will so many social media platforms giving instantaneous news about things, people favor those platforms to something like a discussion forum.  In fact, I'll go one step further and say that forums like this are going the way of the dinosaur.  That said, I'm not sure how long this forum will last.  I have no plans to take it down.  But I cannot help but wonder how long it will make sense to keep around.  That kinda bums me out.  Not just because I run the place, but just because this is somewhat of a "permanent" repository for information and discussion, so I would hate for something like that to dry up and disappear. 

Anyhow, I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is, other than to post my musings and see if it is a discussion point others are interested in.

[geeeemo]

Well, I am new-ish here. I love the forum, although don't use it as much as I would like. I like the different takes that come from here as opposed to other social media. There is the history here and I don't have a knowledge history of DT, so it's good. The other social media is more what song do you like, the ongoing Portnoy/Mangini topic, and JLB/singer stuff. I noticed on FB, it seems like there is a turnover. When I first discovered DT was right after TA was released. I recognized a bunch of people after a while. Now, I don't see most of them there, but now different people.  I suppose nothing lasts forever, but I hope this stays for at least as long as the band is playing.

[Dublagent66]

I’ve noticed the same thing.  DT is heading into their twilight years and there are a lot more social media avenues than before.  However, I don’t think it’s cause for concern.  At least not immediately.  DT has a few more albums to go.  The GMD section has grown over the years because members have branched out and discovered new music.  GD is always moving along at a pretty good clip.  There are lots of good things and discussions going on here.  Personally, as a forum veteran, this is the only place I visit to discuss music or anything else for that matter.

[Pettor]

I usually think of that when Portnoy left they said "it's not rocket science" in regards to all the work he did, including social media. I think the problem is that Portnoy is an eccentric extrovert and maybe a bit narcissist, which for social media is big plus. It came naturally for him.

For me DT activity is absolutely less interesting now between the albums. I think Portnoy has that natural social media personality that actually helped DT a bit back in times before half the world population was required to use social media. His Instagram etc. is filled with stuff and even when he is ordering movie directors it was adding to DT when he was in the band.

With that said, the others are pretty good at it as well. But there's tons of opportunities to use social media that they currently aren't doing.

If you have a band consisting known to have some of the best instrumentalists in the world, why the hell don't you record some content showing just that in HQ and put it on YT for free? Showing of talent in well directed videos are quite common hit material. They have some ofc and others post their live footage for them, but doing it official with a better touch for "what works" I think would generate fans for them. I mean a bit like what they did for TDEN ... but better song 

Anyway they have also done a career and maybe just feel fine with what is.

[Learning2Live]

As one that has 0 social media presence and doesn't plan to change that anytime soon, this forum is my primary spot for all of my music news (at least the news I care about). I lurk frequently but don't post very often. I came originally from the MP forum and was pretty disappointed when he shut his site down since that was my go-to for all things music. I cringe to think if/when this forum ever goes away, where I'll have to turn to for music news. I thoroughly enjoy reading through the various topics and people's opinions (they are typically always respectful despite there being differences amongst the forumers - what a concept!!) even though I rarely participate. Hate reading all of the negativity that most other outlets are riddled with.

That all said, I know the writing is on the wall for these types of forums. I'll be hanging on to this one for dear life and hope this site stays active for as long as possible. You all have no idea how much I enjoy reading your topics and comments, and the great distraction this site is from my normal day-to-day life activities.

Keep up the good work Bosk and know all of the work that goes into keeping this community alive is appreciated!

[Evermind]

The forums like these are definitely out of style. There are bands that still have these forums kinda active, but most of them (as far as I know) don't have this much discussion happening. Blind Guardian official forum was half-dead last time I was there, so was Avantasia official forum. Some are probably still going though.

For me, honestly, the main draw of this forum is the community and the discussion that constantly happens and flows in the GMD. I know this is primarily the forums dedicated for Dream Theater, but I could take or leave the actual DT forum section—no offense intended to anyone—and I don't know if I would be still there if it wasn't for amazing folks I've got an opportunity to know.

I do have social media as I'm registered on Facebook, but I rarely post there, and basically DTF is my social media—which is curious, as I've never stayed on any forum for that long before. As much as I don't care for the DT forum section nowadays, this forum is one of a few things I check multiple times every day.

I'm pretty sure that when DTF will stop existing, a lot of people, including me, will miss it. Let us have our dinosaur ways.

[vtgrad]

I'll support this form (monetarily and otherwise) until it's shuttered... which I hope isn't anytime soon.  This is a great place and I've had my mind and tastes expanded by some of the contributors here and I hope to continue that trend. 

Social Media is a tool in my opinion... nothing more and nothing less.  What kind of tool it is depends on the user and the content creator, but it's a tool nonetheless.  This forum (and the forum model in general I think) is a bit more than just a tool for information, it's a community, or tribe if you like, where one can share ideas for any number of topics; and the sharing of those idea and the necessary rebuttals from individuals that are not necessarily like-minded is how we think (truly think), learn, and grow as people.  Sometimes our perceptions change because of ideas that are fleshed out and expressed by people here... ideas that may take pages of discussion to truly understand.  Sometimes, hell most times, you need more than 140 characters to truly think for yourself.

This is a unique place...

[Buddyhunter1]

For me, honestly, the main draw of this forum is the community and the discussion that constantly happens and flows in the GMD. I know this is primarily the forums dedicated for Dream Theater, but I could take or leave the actual DT forum section—no offense intended to anyone

I'm pretty sure that when DTF will stop existing, a lot of people, including me, will miss it. Let us have our dinosaur ways.

I second these.

[JayOctavarium]

Forums in general? Yea they're going the way of the Dinosaur but this forum feels so much more personal than... say a DT Fan Page on Facebook, which is kind of funny because this is much more... anonymous than FB. 

[TAC]

Bosk, I'm having trouble actually linking the OP to the thread title. Is this a thread about DT's use of social media, this forum, or forums in general?

[Ben_Jamin]

I could take or leave the DT section. But, I do enjoy the discussion here that occurs when it does.

The community that was built is what is keeping this entire forum from dying out. You got people whom have been here since forever haha. I don't think this place will perish any time soon. But who knows what Bosk and the others will feel further along the road. It's amazing how many incarnations this community of people have gone through. How many different websites, when other bands forums wouldn't even bother.

[Northern Lion]

I agree with the concern proposed in the OP.  I think bands need to rethink how they distribute music going forward to keep interest and sales up.  One idea that was brought up by another artist I think is very interesting.  After his last album, Weird Al said that this would be his last album and that going forward he would only release singles in order to stay relevant in the fast paced and quickly outdated social media world. I think he may have a point.

Plus that kind of release pattern would potentually ensure new music more often and it would help DTF as well.

[Max Kuehnau]

Well, IMHO, the idea of the treasure hunt leading up to D/T was great (but then again I am biased concerning that, because I was a part of the group of people who were solving it all), I don't think that would have been possible in the "pre-social media era". I know that might not relate to your musings, bosk, but I think it answers the question in the thread title in some way.

[Dublagent66]

Bosk, I'm having trouble actually linking the OP to the thread title. Is this a thread about DT's use of social media, this forum, or forums in general?

Hmmm, now that I look back through this thread, I guess I'm a little confused too.  Did I misread the title or the OP? 

[bosk1]

I wouldn't overthink it.  It's just that I was kind of going stream of consciousness as I typed it out, so by the time I got to the end of my post, it ended up sounding a little different than in my head when I had first typed the thread title.  But the discussion has been on point.

[TAC]

I wouldn't overthink it.  It's just that I was kind of going stream of consciousness as I typed it out, so by the time I got to the end of my post, it ended up sounding a little different than in my head when I had first typed the thread title.  But the discussion has been on point.

OK...

As far as Dream Theater goes, I'm not on FB, but they seem to have a strong FB presence don't they. I mean, every bit of news seems to come from that. They have done a number of web Q&As. I think they've been fine as far as visibility goes, especially when they're peddling some musical product. It seems that sometimes, when announcing tour dates, on sale times, and things like that there is a lack of coordination in the messaging. Plus, and Bosk, you deserve credit for this, they are aware of DTF.

I would love for the band to give us some love between album cycles. Maybe an interview or Q&A.



As far as the forum goes, I feel like in the early days, the forum came straight from the DT site. It was a different crowd that has gotten older and maybe has had some life take over. Plus DT was on the come in those days, so there was more of a cult type feel to the whole experience.


As some of those folks have moved on, they have been replaced by fans that are frankly bigger fans of other bands. I don't know the post/user numbers year on year, but I feel like that speaks to how special this place is.  I think it's only natural for activity to uptick with DT activity.

[425]

The forums like these are definitely out of style. There are bands that still have these forums kinda active, but most of them (as far as I know) don't have this much discussion happening. Blind Guardian official forum was half-dead last time I was there, so was Avantasia official forum. Some are probably still going though.

For me, honestly, the main draw of this forum is the community and the discussion that constantly happens and flows in the GMD. I know this is primarily the forums dedicated for Dream Theater, but I could take or leave the actual DT forum section—no offense intended to anyone—and I don't know if I would be still there if it wasn't for amazing folks I've got an opportunity to know.

...

I'm pretty sure that when DTF will stop existing, a lot of people, including me, will miss it. Let us have our dinosaur ways.

Forums in general? Yea they're going the way of the Dinosaur but this forum feels so much more personal than... say a DT Fan Page on Facebook, which is kind of funny because this is much more... anonymous than FB. 

I want to say that I emphatically agree with both of these.

I'll add this: On a really good forum, there is a depth and intimacy to the community that I have never seen recreated to full success on social media.

As Jay said, even though people on forums are generally anonymous and people on, say, Facebook, use their real names, the connections between longtime forum members nonetheless seem to become deeper and more personal than co-members of the same Facebook groups. As years go on, certain members become institutions unto themselves. Maybe it's the archival element that Bosk mentioned in the OP—one thing I've been doing the past few weeks (I've been pretty severely ill and thus out of work and school—getting better now) is going through old top 50 lists. My ability to easily go and read somebody's top 50 from 5 years ago means that I'm able to get to know more about that person than I could just on real-time engagement.

And as for depth of conversation, forums lend themselves by design to long-form communication in precisely the way that social media very much doesn't. On a forum, it's practically encourage to take your time and lay out your full thoughts on a subject. On social media, time is of the essence, and long-form writing is cumbersome by the very design of the websites (e.g. the fact that Facebook hides most of long comments by default doesn't make it obvious how to even include paragraph breaks). Even reddit, the most forum-like social media site, is not particularly conducive to long-form, reflective posts and lengthy back-and-forth conversations, since the voting system leads to a heavy bias toward the first comments.

Maybe there is an analogy here to letter-writing versus other forms of communication. Back in the days of letter writing, people would take their time in corresponding back and forth, and would often archive their letters so that there would ultimately be a long conversation, recorded for posterity. The forum model isn't exactly like that, namely because it is public rather than private, but I think there's an interesting similarity to ponder.

Regardless, I really love the forum model and am sad to see it on the decline. And this forum in particular is by far the best online community I have ever been a part of. So for that, a big thank-you to Bosk and the rest of the leadership team who make this great community possible, and a shoutout to the forum regulars who sustain its life.

[cramx3]

Forums in general? Yea they're going the way of the Dinosaur but this forum feels so much more personal than... say a DT Fan Page on Facebook, which is kind of funny because this is much more... anonymous than FB.

Isn't it funny how that works?  I totally agree.  Not only that, but people are quite rude on social media even with their real name tagged to it.  It always amazes me that people would publicly say the things the do on facebook/twitter/instagram/whatever.  While people do occasionally go off the rails here, it's far less often and the result is a far more civil discussion.  Maybe that's a testament to the mods here where it seems facebook is a free for all. 

As for the future of the forum, it's interesting because the core group of people here came for DT but stayed for everything else.  When DT retire, does the forum retire with them?  Maybe, but it almost seems like this place could morph into a general metal/hard rock forum in a way, but I'm not sure how the forum would grow when social media has taken over.   But there's something to be said about an internet community that is not toxic.

[ReaPsTA]

This place has been a part of my life in some capacity since the old DT.net board. Before Octavarium came out. Fifteen years.... half my life.....

Part of the reason my forum posting mostly dropped off a cliff a few years ago was because I didn't want to live my life more on the internet than in real life. This mission at least partly succeeded. Being a productive member of society feels good man.

These days, I feel like I can post here and it wouldn't cause me to enter the same void. And yet, I just don't feel like there's a whole lot to be said. I will never write another post like the one about why Awake is secretly a concept album about Spiderman. I enjoy throwing out tidbits of DT that I like and getting the reply saying "Yeah I like that one too!", but at this point I've explored that feeling about as fully as possible.

Debating people on the internet? A mainstay of my previous time here. These days? What's the point. Other people not liking something I do like doesn't make me like it less. Other people liking something I don't doesn't pose a problem for my dislike of something. If I find someone's taste lacking, that's their problem.

My musical tastes shifting is also relevant. This place is great for following metal/prog in general. I never stopped liking that music. Just listened to the new Amorphis album today and really enjoyed it. But these days I've been more into the Synthwave/Outrun stuff.

So except for the album hype, what's the point? I have no interest in DT becoming a drama factory, and they deserve all the respect for wanting it to be about the music. Trying to be a personality is a distraction. I follow music, not musicians. And yet, this leaves little to talk about.

What point am I trying to make here? I don't know, but this post must come to an end. No it is not a goodbye post. Such things are undignified. But, since the Boskman asked, it's an explanation I suppose for why I'm happy to mostly lurk.

[EPIC Outro]

I can't keep up with social media. This forum makes sense to me and I dig it.

[Volante99]

I feel like the rise of Reddit definitely stole some of the thunder from traditional message board/forums.

At the end of the day people will always like a “forum” for their thoughts and opinions, and people will go where there is the largest user base, so it sort of becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

That said I hope the forum has plenty of legs left; since I don’t have any friends who like DT (and FB is a pretty lousy place for serious discussion) this is literally the only place where I can interact with other fans of a band I’m passionate about.

[Infinite Cactus]

I think it also has to do with the fact rhat many of the topics we used to discuss between albums have been discussed many many times over the years. I remember the great nugget search, why does pull me under end like that, Mike Portnoy....jewish, John Pettucci snails, Octavarium flute, and the Root of All Evil actually being Crucify. We went through things with a fine tooth comb for over a decade. Combined with younger fans having more likeliness to use reddit, and other forms, I think it's further spread out. I think Dream Theater do pretty well with their social media. Port noy was obviously more involved in the day, I just think it's more generic than when there was more to discover, discuss, and when Mike used to throw out little bits and pieces. We also had fairly regular ytsejam releases. None of these are complaints, it's the nature of the beast I think.

[TAC]

That's a good point, Cactus. MP played a big role in keeping the band fan-centric.

But the lead up to TSA with the choose your sides thing was interesting. The Treasure Hunt I ignored because it was way over my head, but cool nonetheless.

[Cool Chris]

This is my social media. At my last job there are days I swear I spent more time on this site than I spent actually working. I've never had any desire to have a FaceTwittGram account. I don't feel any desire to communicate with people that way, or follow whatever is "trending."

On the subject at hand... ReaPsTA!

I just don't feel like there's a whole lot to be said. I will never write another post like the one about why Awake is secretly a concept album about Spiderman. I enjoy throwing out tidbits of DT that I like and getting the reply saying "Yeah I like that one too!", but at this point I've explored that feeling about as fully as possible.

Regarding this forum, I love the discussion about DT and music, but don't feel I contribute much. Which is fine with me. I am always astounded by how much people write about bands and albums they love. Those Top 50 Album write-ups can include more words than I utter in an entire day. I just don't know how to articulate my love for Images and Words much deeper than "It rocks." I do enjoy reading the thoughts of others though.

Debating people on the internet? A mainstay of my previous time here. These days? What's the point.

We had a discussion about if Lie was really just part of The Mirror. it was a good read that brought me some smiles. Were we debating abortion or the death penalty? No, but it was fun and I learned some things. And I think some of the discussions in P/R have great value. I have found myself evaluating my opinions on a couple issues based on thoughts others have posted. Debate can be healthy. We don't do that in our society any longer. But a debate on the internet can quickly devolve in to dross.

[Cool Chris]

Sorry for double-post, but I wanted to keep this separate. If a band regularly puts out good music I enjoy, I don't get caught up in their social media presence. I love this forum but to me it is so much more than a DT forum. I signed up for the Maiden forum years back and while I listen to them as much as any band, I just didn't feel compelled to post much, or even read the forum a whole lot.

On the topic of DT and Mike, no amount of social media presence could have made me a bigger fan of the group than the DVD commentaries on LiT/5YiaL and Live Scenes. Those commentary tracks alone not only revitalized by love for the band in the ealry 2000s, but made me feel more connected to them as a group and as 5 individuals than I've ever felt about a band before or since.

[Rob24]

I just think forums, like this one, are becoming less and less popular and active (sadly), so they seem more alive when there are releases, news, the like, and see a drop in activity when things return to normal, only it is harder to see the overall decline. Not sure what this has to do with DT's use of social media.

[cramx3]

I think Dream Theater do pretty well with their social media. Port noy was obviously more involved in the day, I just think it's more generic than when there was more to discover, discuss, and when Mike used to throw out little bits and pieces. We also had fairly regular ytsejam releases.

True.  If the forum goes through waves of activity and it correlates with releases, well, MP having YTSE Jam and constantly releasing nuggets and whatnot to fans, it gives a lot more to talk about.  I mean, MP isn't even in the band anymore and he has his own thread and one for each of his bands, all of which get a lot of activity here and a lot of it comes from the things he says on twitter. 

Now that's not to say DT's social media isn't good.  They've picked up their game since TA, the way they presented the new album and tours.  They've done what every other band is doing.  Which is fine, no issues there.  But it's not a MP level of interactivity that breeds more discussion activity (whether here or on social media platforms). 

[KevShmev]

While I get why they do mostly stagnant set lists now, when they were rotated back in the day, it was always kind of exciting to come online to see what they had played the night before, since it often felt like it could be anything.  Now, you see the set list for opening night, maybe they rotate one spot, and then you don't really have to check again until the next leg to see if they then are doing anything different.  As a result, the mid-tour chatter isn't as fun and attracts less posters.  I think that's a small part of it, although others have made good points about other things as well.

[zappafrank2112]

I honestly don't see why a forum like this WOULDN'T continue, for the simple fact that A) it's centralized, and B) aside from a FB or twitter feed, it provides various direct pipelines to the band.

And speaking of FB/Twitter/etc., their lack of centralization I think is the exact reason a place like this has value.  Yeah, those other avenues might provide instant access, but those posts and Tweets get buried hour after hour, day after day, to the point where they become obsolete even hours after the fact.

Here, although a thread might stop being active for a bit, it's always present in terms of the list, and we've all seen threads continue for YEARS, or get picked up after a delay for one reason or another.

It's true, in this day and age of instant access, there is more downtime, where in the days of limited access, there was time to debate, converse, speculate, etc. while waiting for the next newsletter or 'zine article.  Now, BOOM, information is there, questions tend to get answered in short order.

But again: the centralization is key.  The only other place I believe might be comparable is the reddit sub-forum, and I bet even there, there's overlap with DTF (RIP the old Usenet groups, haha... ah, college).

But as long as the band is active, there's always something to discuss, and the centralized aspect will bring the people in.  Hell, therushforum is still active as hell (granted, there's still been activity from the Rush camp in general).

So, I think it's all good here.

[Dublagent66]

Forums in general? Yea they're going the way of the Dinosaur but this forum feels so much more personal than... say a DT Fan Page on Facebook, which is kind of funny because this is much more... anonymous than FB.

Exactly!  I'm a member of the DT group on FB, but only post there periodically.  I never engage discussion there because it's not really a forum like this is.  Yeah, forums and message boards have been around a while, but I think they are preferable to any other form of social media.

[Anguyen92]

There's always going to be value in forums like this.  Sure, there are times where it may not be as prevalent compared to Twitter or Facebook, but I like the fact that we can look back on various threads (although the search feature here isn't really the greatest) and reflect on certain topics.  You can't get that effect as cleanly on Twitter or Facebook.  I only use Twitter as a source of information rather than engaging on a topic.

DTF has been really good at covering all kinds of bands and all kinds of various topics with a great level of thought and care in those posts and that's what makes me keep coming back on a daily basis.  Sure, there may be some downtime on the DT front if they are on a break from touring or a break from anything band-related, but there's always something that can get the community here to be engaged in anything whether it is other bands, sports, events that's happening in the world, etc.  I hope this forum can stick around as long as possible.

[hefdaddy42]

I will never write another post like the one about why Awake is secretly a concept album about Spiderman.

NEVER FORGET

[gzarruk]

I really hope the forum stays here for a looooong time, I just can’t imagine life without it anymore (as I check it every day, multiple times a day). Sure, I don’t post in a lot of topics/threads, but I always read the posts and think it’s the perfect place to share my love for this band (and a few other bands too). As others have said, there’s some sort of magic the forum has that no Facebook group is able to replicate, and I’m actually a member of two DT groups on FB.

However, I think that the band should promote and/or engage more with the forum in general. Sure, there’s a few negative comments that some of the band members would take offense from, but with Bosk being friends with the band, and also knowing people from the touring crew, like Maddi (who’s posted on the forum a couple times), there’s a lot of potential for more interaction with the band and between forum members. Just imagine a DT member opening a thread and sporadically answering questions, or submitting questions here and they can film themselves answering... the possibilities are endless. And, given that this would be a DTF exclusive deal, more fans would want to join the forum (this includes fans that are aware of this place but have never joined or others who have no clue it exists). This would also make long time lurkers want to actually sign in and post (in my case, I lurked here for about a year before I decided to post anything).

Something else I wanted to mention, even though it’s a bit off topic, is that this discussion made me realize that there isn’t really a worthy successor to DT, and I’d hate to see them retire one day without having someone to safely carry the genere moving forward (as most of the younger bands these days just seem to be focussed on technicality and chugga chugga more than anything). However, I believe and hope that there’s at least other 10 or more years for DT in the future, and I wouldn’t mind lineup changes as long as we have JP and a world-class group of musicians carrying the legacy with passion and love for what DT is.

...phew, that was a long post.

[ytserush]

I'm not on social media so I wouldn't know. (Unless this counts.)

There are about a half-dozen forums I try to get to about once a week or so for information, interaction and informed discussion.

 I enjoy high signal to noise ratios usually and try to avoid click bait.  I also know this is not a very popular point of view given how many people seem to be on social media, but it works for me.  No doubt I'll be one of the last hold outs when all forums go away at which point I'll have to reconsider part of how I use the internet.

[TAC]

I'm totally with you, John.