Scotty, I read the additional information you cited, and I understand it completely. And I still have no idea how you reach the conclusion you reach. But, hey, there are those that reach one conclusion from the evidence, and there are those that are wrong.
...and it's time for you to finally admit that you're wrong even if you don't understand.
How many demos from how many bands over the history of music evolved out of one thing and into something completely different. Just cuz it's in the demo liner notes (official or not) doesn't mean the intentions translate on to the formal studio release.
Except for the fact that what I quote above come from the liners MP wrote many years *after* the fact, where he explains the process behind what was done and how the songs were altered when comparing the demo versions to what appears on the album. What I cited above is MP explaining how the song Lie developed from part of The Mirror into what appeared *on the album* not what is on the demo.
When MP stated they "decided to develop the ideas at the end of The Mirror into something that would be a separate song on its own but yet would still sit in the middle of The Mirror" I think it's pretty obvious what he meant - he meant that they took a section from The Mirror and expanded it into another song that still was in the middle of The Mirror. In other words, the whole thing starts with The Mirror, goes into Lie and the returns to The Mirror. It's interesting to note that on the demo release, The Mirror and Lie are two separate and complete tracks. The demo of Lie is only 5 minutes long - without that final 1.5 minutes that's on the album. If that final 1.5 minutes was supposed to be part of Lie, why didn't they include it?
And jingle - I didn't understand any of your other points, so I didn't respond.
I don't consider In the Presence of Enemies to be one song; it is two. Even if it was written originally to be one, it was broken up into two and released that way. Think of it like the Kill Bill movies, which were eventually broken up into two films as well.
Here's my evidence that some on this forum believe that ItPoE is two songs and SDoIT is eight (see the last part of his post). So Peter Mc, feel free to argue with Shmev on this one!
Scotty, I don't think what the band says is what should be written in stone.
Then who should we believe? Whatever some fan says just because that's what he believes? If anything, I think MP, with his elephant memory and attention to detail regarding facts (not opinions) about these sorts of things should be accepted as gospel more than anything else. While some may argue that some of MP's statements have been affected by his ego, especially since he left the band, this was written long before that time and he made an effort to always convey accurate information.
When art is release to the masses, it is normal for the masses to categorize it accordingly. Steven Wilson pushed back in his early days at the first few Porcupine Tree albums being called prog, but most called it prog, so it was prog. I mean, if JP came out tomorrow and said, "Honor Thy Father is a rap song," would that make it rap? Nope.
Despite my "cheat" earlier in this thread, I think of A Mind Beside Itself in the same way I do Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: a suite of songs that ties together (mostly) nicely, but isn't really a single song. And in both cases, the band has labeled it as such on live releases (AMBI on Live Scenes, 6DOIT on Score).
Ah ha! So you did cheat! Busted!
Well, you can argue all you want, but I'll go by what the band says. The band never said that AMBI was a single song, but is has said that SDoIT is, and so I follow that reasoning. Why should I? Because they're the ones who wrote and recorded it. They know better than anyone else what they were doing.
As an aside, how did SW describe the first few PT albums? If not prog, then what? I'd say the first few albums were almost more psychedelic than prog, akin to early PF.
I listened a little more closely to Lie and until it was mentioned here, I didn't know that the end of the song was originally part of The Mirror in the demo version (I never listened to it). Although I do think that the final version on the album is basically a final statement by the band, I do think I will try editing the two songs in Audacity just to see what I personally think.
I tried that years ago for shits and giggles, combining The Mirror and the end of Lie, to see if it worked, but it didn't. It runs together rhythmically, yes, but the way that heavy guitar at the end of The Mirror suddenly drops out as the transition is made sounded very unnatural and just didn't work.
Well if neither of you guys have the Awake demos, I'm sure you can find them on a certain site for reference as to how The Mirror was originally.
And as for cutting The Mirror out completely, just listen to the way the song flows on LSFNY. It doesn't include that fast guitar section that appears from 4:57 to 5:07 on track 8 of Awake, but includes everything after it, tacked on to the end of The Mirror.