Author Topic: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.  (Read 12758 times)

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Offline Loggins

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2019, 03:10:58 PM »
Difficult question...
In no particular order.

This is the Life
In the Presence of Enemies, Pt. 1: Prelude/Resurrection
The Mirror
Forsaken
The Looking Glass
Endless Sacrifice
A Change of Seasons
Pale Blue Dot
Erotomania
Take the Time

so difficult. I could add ten more or swap some for others even. depends a lot on mood.


Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2019, 03:16:11 PM »

Exactly, being that it is a continuation of the Mirror. I think Shmev must have forgotten that DT decided to insert a song (Lie) within another song (The Mirror). Really, the single edit of Lie is the whole song - the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 on Awake is actually The Mirror, not Lie.

I didn't forget that, but if the end of Lie was actually the end of The Mirror, I feel like it would have been called that on the album sleeve, no?  Semantics, I know, but when I discuss the greatness of The Mirror, which is one that is really close to my top 10 yet just misses out, I do not consider the end of Lie on the Awake CD as part of the song.

Semantics aside, it does make for a killer 13 minutes plus listening experience to listen to The Mirror and Lie and then get the Mirror reprise at the end of it. :metal :metal

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2019, 03:44:01 PM »

Exactly, being that it is a continuation of the Mirror. I think Shmev must have forgotten that DT decided to insert a song (Lie) within another song (The Mirror). Really, the single edit of Lie is the whole song - the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 on Awake is actually The Mirror, not Lie.

I didn't forget that, but if the end of Lie was actually the end of The Mirror, I feel like it would have been called that on the album sleeve, no?  Semantics, I know, but when I discuss the greatness of The Mirror, which is one that is really close to my top 10 yet just misses out, I do not consider the end of Lie on the Awake CD as part of the song.
Yeah it is semantics, and I think it was just easier to list it as they did. Even when it comes to the setlists that MP wrote up, it never mentioned "Mirror (reprise)" after Lie, whether The Mirror was played before it or not. But the reality is that it's a continuation of The Mirror and is noted as such when Lie is not played: "The Mirror (w/ reprise)". That said, I understand why they always play the reprise following Lie, because most fans don't pay attention to such details and it is a much more killer ending than if they just stopped playing Lie at the 5 minute mark. That said, for once, I would love to see the band play Lie (as in what is known as the single edit) early in the set, and The Mirror w/reprise later, just to mess with the audience a little.   :biggrin:
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2019, 03:50:41 PM »
I'm still really confused about what point Kev is trying to raise about that though.  What is the issue?  The end of Lie isn't part of The Mirror.  Just like the reprises of parts of Metropolis pt. I in Home and The Dance of Eternity aren't parts of Metropolis pt. I.  Or the parts of Learning To Live that reprise the melody from Wait For Sleep don't somehow make Learning To Live part of Wait for Sleep.  Again, not sure what you are trying to say, Kev.  I don't see where the issue is.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2019, 04:04:35 PM »
I'm still really confused about what point Kev is trying to raise about that though.  What is the issue?  The end of Lie isn't part of The Mirror.
Can't explain Shmev, but actually the end of Lie is part of The Mirror. If you listen to the demo, you'll hear what you know as The Mirror, plus about 2 minutes instrumentally of what you know as Lie, before going into what we refer to now as the reprise. *That* was The Mirror in it's original form. Then the guys decided to take that instrumental 2 minutes and expand that into a song of it's own (Lie). Which they then demoed, without the reprise (sounds like the single edit). When MP added The Mirror to the set in 2000 without Lie, he excised all of Lie (including that 2 minutes) so that it was purely The Mirror. That's why it flows so well - because it's part of the song.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2019, 04:07:02 PM »
Yes, I know.  And stuff like that happens during the writing process.  But as recorded, it became two separate songs.  Yes, they share quite a bit, including the direct reprise.  But...again, what exactly is the issue there? 
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2019, 04:58:36 PM »
I get what Scotty is saying, but regardless of how it was on the demo, the final draft that ended up on the album had what I presume was the original ending of The Mirror now becoming the end of Lie.

My original point, of course, was to the "cheating" Chad chided me about regarding my pick as A Mind Beside Itself as a single song, and how others had taken similar liberties to call multiple tracks (as indexed on their respective CD's) a single song.  Again, it's semantics.

Offline pg1067

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2019, 06:00:27 PM »
The Mirror would probably be in (or very close to) my bottom 10 list.

Well, that's the good thing about you having been here awhile.  You have enough of a posting history for me to know for certain that you have been wrong about a good many things.  :biggrin:

Cute....   :P


I'm still really confused about what point Kev is trying to raise about that though.  What is the issue?  The end of Lie isn't part of The Mirror.
Can't explain Shmev, but actually the end of Lie is part of The Mirror. If you listen to the demo, you'll hear what you know as The Mirror, plus about 2 minutes instrumentally of what you know as Lie, before going into what we refer to now as the reprise. *That* was The Mirror in it's original form. Then the guys decided to take that instrumental 2 minutes and expand that into a song of it's own (Lie). Which they then demoed, without the reprise (sounds like the single edit). When MP added The Mirror to the set in 2000 without Lie, he excised all of Lie (including that 2 minutes) so that it was purely The Mirror. That's why it flows so well - because it's part of the song.

I guess I'm glad that I think these are the two worst songs on Awake because trying to follow this is giving me a headache!
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Offline JoeMLennon

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2019, 07:39:45 PM »
1) Octavarium
2) In the Name of God
3) The Count of Tuscany
4) A Change of Seasons
5) At Wit's End
6) The Spirit Carries On
7) Home
8) Blind Faith
9) Solitary Shell
10) Lifting Shadows off a Dream

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2019, 09:35:26 PM »
Someone should chart these.

Learning to Live
Voices
A Change of Seasons
Finally Free
Disappear
Endless Sacrifice
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
Beneath the Surface
At Wit's End
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2019, 10:56:23 PM »
RE- The Mirror.

Just listen to the Live Scenes from New York version to hear what The Mirror was like in its original form, and you will understand exactly what we're talking about.   The Mirror is a top 10 all time best DT song, and Lie is an all time worst DT song.   That's why I've re-edited it in Audacity so that The Mirror is in its original form and Lie is gone.   

1. Six Degrees
2. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons
4. The Glass Prison
5. Beyond This Life
6. The Mirror
7. Learning to Live
8. Lifting Shadows off a Dream
9. Fatal Tragedy
10. Scarred
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Offline Peter Mc

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2019, 05:22:05 AM »
Got to say that Iíve been a fan of DT for about 25 years and I was not aware that the end of Lie was not considered as part of that song but was actually the end of The Mirror. Donít get me wrong, itís clearly similar to the point where it took me a while to see where The Mirror ended and Lie began but Iíve never seen Lie listed as Lie (inc The Mirror reprise). It may be that way on the demo and they may have done it live but I would argue, for the purposes of picking a top 10, The Mirror is as it is on the album. Wasnít Hells Kitchen and Burning My Soul originally conceived as one song and sometimes  played live in that format? Iíd still argue itís two separate songs as thatís the way it was eventually given to us on the album. I think ITPOE is a little different as that is one song split purely for sequencing reasons (too big of a hump to get over to open the album and too formulaic to close with another epic after a run of them on previous albums).

For the record I love the end of Lie (not the song itself though) and wish it had just been left as part of The Mirror. It would totally enhance The Mirror and remove the need to listen to Lie.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2019, 06:19:47 AM »
Yes, I know.  And stuff like that happens during the writing process.  But as recorded, it became two separate songs.
No, it's a continuation of The Mirror, even if under a different track number. Same exact thing as what they did with ItPoE except there they inserted the rest of the album in between the two parts of the song, instead of just one song.  :)
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2019, 06:33:36 AM »
Yes, I know.  And stuff like that happens during the writing process.  But as recorded, it became two separate songs.
No, it's a continuation of The Mirror, even if under a different track number. Same exact thing as what they did with ItPoE except there they inserted the rest of the album in between the two parts of the song, instead of just one song.  :)

While I completely understand what happened in the writing process, I stand behind Peter Mc's reasoning about Hell's Kitchen. Yeah, we know the first part was in Burning My Soul, but I consider BMS being BMS and HK being HK. So I think of The Mirror as The Mirror and Lie as Lie, not as The Mirror - Lie - The Mirror (reprise) (we don't write it on the sleeve or in the inner notes but that's the way it is). We're talking anyway of an album full of reprises here and there, with Erotomania being basically made up of riffs from the other songs, and the SDV motif appearing in The Mirror.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2019, 06:50:11 AM »
@ Scotty... I've honestly never heard anyone say the end of Lie is actually part of The Mirror until you mentioned it.  Is it in the sleeve anywhere (serious question)?  I don't think it can be compared to ITPOE Pt1 and Pt2.  The band specifically called it out as the same song with different parts.  There's no such indication of the relationship between The Mirror and Lie.  I'm with Bosk on this, and am confused about any suggestion that they are NOT two separate songs.  I hear your points, and doubt you can make yourself any clearer - but am still not following. 

:dunno:
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Offline Dream Team

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2019, 08:43:39 AM »
A Change of Seasons
Metropolis
Under a Glass Moon
Surrounded
The Great Debate
In The Name of God
Breaking All Illusions
The Count of Tuscany
Only a Matter of Time
Illumination Theory

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2019, 12:25:30 PM »
@ Scotty... I've honestly never heard anyone say the end of Lie is actually part of The Mirror until you mentioned it.  Is it in the sleeve anywhere (serious question)?  I don't think it can be compared to ITPOE Pt1 and Pt2.  The band specifically called it out as the same song with different parts.  There's no such indication of the relationship between The Mirror and Lie.  I'm with Bosk on this, and am confused about any suggestion that they are NOT two separate songs.  I hear your points, and doubt you can make yourself any clearer - but am still not following. 

:dunno:

Let's go by what is written in the liner notes to the Awake Demos official bootleg. Just including what's pertinent. Here's what's said about The Mirror:
Quote
As you'll hear on this demo, the music for the final part of The Mirror, which later ended up becoming Lie, was originally intended to simply be a part of this single song.

Now that comment *may* suggest that what you and Bosk are saying is correct - that the final "reprise" *was* a part of The Mirror originally, but now is a part of Lie. But consider the comments for Lie:
Quote
We decided to develop the ideas at the end of The Mirror into something that would be a separate song on its own but yet would still sit in the middle of The Mirror. So we extended some of the riffs into multiple verses and choruses and wrote a bridge and a solo section to create what would end up being the lead off single from Awake.

The bolded part of this quote makes it quite clear what the band was doing: writing a song that was inserted within another song. The comment about "the final part of The Mirror, which later ended up becoming Lie" in the first quote was in reference to the section of the song that was developed into Lie (time stamp 6:43 to 8:32 on the demo) and was *not* referring to the final 1.5 minutes which were not expanded or altered at all.

Therefore, the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 on Awake is really The Mirror, not Lie even tho it's not labeled as such or tracked separately from Lie.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 12:31:35 PM by Setlist Scotty »
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2019, 12:45:42 PM »
This isn't a shot at you Scotty. I respect you as much as anyone on this forum. But I don't care what the band thought or wanted or intended. I treat albums are exactly as they are released.
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2019, 01:13:39 PM »
@ Scotty... I've honestly never heard anyone say the end of Lie is actually part of The Mirror until you mentioned it.  Is it in the sleeve anywhere (serious question)?  I don't think it can be compared to ITPOE Pt1 and Pt2.  The band specifically called it out as the same song with different parts.  There's no such indication of the relationship between The Mirror and Lie.  I'm with Bosk on this, and am confused about any suggestion that they are NOT two separate songs.  I hear your points, and doubt you can make yourself any clearer - but am still not following. 

:dunno:

Let's go by what is written in the liner notes to the Awake Demos official bootleg. Just including what's pertinent. Here's what's said about The Mirror:
Quote
As you'll hear on this demo, the music for the final part of The Mirror, which later ended up becoming Lie, was originally intended to simply be a part of this single song.

Now that comment *may* suggest that what you and Bosk are saying is correct - that the final "reprise" *was* a part of The Mirror originally, but now is a part of Lie. But consider the comments for Lie:
Quote
We decided to develop the ideas at the end of The Mirror into something that would be a separate song on its own but yet would still sit in the middle of The Mirror. So we extended some of the riffs into multiple verses and choruses and wrote a bridge and a solo section to create what would end up being the lead off single from Awake.

The bolded part of this quote makes it quite clear what the band was doing: writing a song that was inserted within another song. The comment about "the final part of The Mirror, which later ended up becoming Lie" in the first quote was in reference to the section of the song that was developed into Lie (time stamp 6:43 to 8:32 on the demo) and was *not* referring to the final 1.5 minutes which were not expanded or altered at all.

Therefore, the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 on Awake is really The Mirror, not Lie even tho it's not labeled as such or tracked separately from Lie.

You know, this whole discussion is one of the reasons why I love DT so much.  Some people look at a song in a certain way, and sometimes in a way I hadn't thought of before, with evidence and reasoning and others will look at the same song and argue the opposite point with evidence and reasoning.

I think we've definately entered a DT philosophical/Technical mosh pit.  :xbones

Way entertaining! :corn
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2019, 01:25:22 PM »
This isn't a shot at you Scotty. I respect you as much as anyone on this forum. But I don't care what the band thought or wanted or intended. I treat albums are exactly as they are released.
No harm, no foul. No offense taken. What you're saying is fine - you can believe whatever you want to believe. But really that's your interpretation as opposed to what would be considered official fact. Kinda like understanding/interpreting lyrics. You can read all sorts of things into lyrics that are legit, because of what words are used. But that still doesn't mean that's what the band was conveying in the song. Reminds me how a bunch of people on MP.com originally ASSumed that Train of Thought was going to be a Christian album based strictly on the song titles when they were first released and the fact that MP had been working with Neal Morse. But I digress...

By your comment, I would guess you consider the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 to be a part of Lie, correct? What if that section had been made track 9? Would that change your opinion? Better yet, what are your feelings on ItPoE and the title track to SDoIT? On SC, ItPoE was broken up into 2 tracks - so does that make it 2 separate songs? And SDoIT was broken up into 8 tracks - so does that mean it is 8 songs that are linked together? By that reasoning, yes. But then consider how ItPoE is one track on Chaos in Motion and SDoIT is a single track on Score. How do you explain that? That conflicts with that mentality of believing according to how it's released. So, IMO, in this sort of situation, the safest way to go is by what the band says/intends as opposed to personal interpretations based on how it's released or some other arbitrary way.
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Offline Peter Mc

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2019, 02:32:06 PM »
I really donít think the ITPOE or SDOIT examples are comparable. They are clearly labelled as being parts of the same song. The reasons for splitting ITPOE on the album were clearly explained at the time of release and are widely known. It would make a difference if, as you suggested, that instrumental section was track 9 and called ĎThe Mirror repriseí or track 8 was called ĎLie/The Mirror Repriseí or even in the lyric booklet at the end of the Lie lyrics, it said The Mirror reprise. I think the comparison here is the Burning My Soul / Hellís Kitchen situation which were conceived as one song and then split into two for the final product. They are now considered two separate songs.

Like I said, Iíve been a fan of DT from around the time ACOS was released, Iíve read pretty much anything there was to read and, until you mentioned this, I was not aware of it. Iím not doubting what you read in the liner notes regarding the Awake demos and the two songs have clear links but in the finished product they have been presented to us as two separate songs in terms of them being separate tracks on the album and different song titles.

In the grand scheme of things, it doesnít really matter but, as much as I would love that solo at the end of The Mirror, I will always consider it as part of Lie.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2019, 03:15:25 PM »
I really donít think the ITPOE or SDOIT examples are comparable. They are clearly labelled as being parts of the same song. The reasons for splitting ITPOE on the album were clearly explained at the time of release and are widely known.
I can't speak for Cool Chris, because I don't know his personal feelings, but I know that there are some people on this forum that would argue that they consider both ItPoE and SDoIT to consist of multiple songs instead of being single songs that were split up for tracking purposes.
 
 
It would make a difference if, as you suggested, that instrumental section was track 9 and called ĎThe Mirror repriseí or track 8 was called ĎLie/The Mirror Repriseí or even in the lyric booklet at the end of the Lie lyrics, it said The Mirror reprise.
But here's the thing - if that were true, then why on LSFNY is track 5 of CD2 listed simply as "The Mirror"? Shouldn't it be "The Mirror/Lie" or "The Mirror/Lie outro"? And shouldn't it be 2 separate tracks instead of 1?
 
 
I think the comparison here is the Burning My Soul / Hellís Kitchen situation which were conceived as one song and then split into two for the final product. They are now considered two separate songs.
Sorry, but I disagree with comparing The Mirror and Lie to BMS and HK. Quite frankly, there is no argument that BMS and HK are separate songs, because that's what the band intended and has expressly stated. Yes, originally the first part of HK was in the middle of BMS, but then Kevin Shirley talked them into editing it out. Instead of leaving it on the cutting room floor, the band decided to write a new outro for that instrumental section so that it would be a *separate* and *complete* song that would perfectly transition from BMS into LitS. You can play BMS by itself and it sounds like a complete song. You can play HK by itself and it sounds like a complete song.

On the other hand, if you were to set track 7 on Awake to play by itself, it sounds incomplete. Why? Because it is not a complete song. But tack on the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 and it does become a complete song. OTOH, play only the first 5 minutes of track 8 and hit stop and it sounds like a complete song - you don't need the last 1.5 minutes to complete it. So even the way track 7 and 8 are arranged (in terms of songwriting) provide evidence that Lie was a song that was inserted into the middle of The Mirror as MP expressly stated in the Awake demos liner notes.
 
 
Like I said, Iíve been a fan of DT from around the time ACOS was released, Iíve read pretty much anything there was to read and, until you mentioned this, I was not aware of it. Iím not doubting what you read in the liner notes regarding the Awake demos and the two songs have clear links but in the finished product they have been presented to us as two separate songs in terms of them being separate tracks on the album and different song titles.
You're in the same boat as me in terms of reading anything and everything DT related. But please don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to make myself "better" than you, but I've also had numerous discussions with MP both in person and via e-mail about a million different DT-related topics, and I know at least one of them had been related to The Mirror since it not only is one of my favorite songs, but also because I remember reading about the original demo of the song in one of the first issues of the Images and Words fanzine and how it was 10 minutes long, included an excerpt of what became Lie, blah blah blah... and I wanted to know the full story about it.
 
 
In the grand scheme of things, it doesnít really matter but, as much as I would love that solo at the end of The Mirror, I will always consider it as part of Lie.
No, it doesn't really matter. But you can believe that the solo at the end is The Mirror and is not Lie because the band says so.  ;)
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2019, 03:19:37 PM »
Scotty, I read the additional information you cited, and I understand it completely.  And I still have no idea how you reach the conclusion you reach.  But, hey, there are those that reach one conclusion from the evidence, and there are those that are wrong.  :dunno:
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2019, 03:21:11 PM »
A few points to respond to Scotty - again, with much respect cuz you've probably forgotten more about DT than I've ever known.
 You cite your evidence from the Demo liner notes.  Demo.  How many demos from how many bands over the history of music evolved out of one thing and into something completely different.  Just cuz it's in the demo liner notes (official or not) doesn't mean the intentions translate on to the formal studio release.

Second "what if"?  What if my aunt had balls - she'd be my uncle.  (it's a totally dumb analogy that I heard once and constantly use - makes no sense really).  But "what if" is a pretty weak point to justify a position.

Lastly tracks =/= songs.  Usually they do, but not always.  Songs are often cut into multiple tracks.  And multiple songs can be cut into one track.

Look, your views on the matter are cool, I an't bothered over it.  I just don't see that reasoning your providing adds up.

Ninja'd... haven't gone through that last post.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2019, 03:22:09 PM »
I don't consider In the Presence of Enemies to be one song; it is two.  Even if it was written originally to be one, it was broken up into two and released that way.  Think of it like the Kill Bill movies, which were eventually broken up into two films as well.

Scotty, I don't think what the band says is what should be written in stone.  When art is release to the masses, it is normal for the masses to categorize it accordingly.  Steven Wilson pushed back in his early days at the first few Porcupine Tree albums being called prog, but most called it prog, so it was prog.  I mean, if JP came out tomorrow and said, "Honor Thy Father is a rap song," would that make it rap?  Nope.

Despite my "cheat" earlier in this thread, I think of A Mind Beside Itself in the same way I do Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: a suite of songs that ties together (mostly) nicely, but isn't really a single song.  And in both cases, the band has labeled it as such on live releases (AMBI on Live Scenes, 6DOIT on Score).

Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2019, 03:27:07 PM »
I listened a little more closely to Lie and until it was mentioned here, I didn't know that the end of the song was originally part of The Mirror in the demo version (I never listened to it).  Although I do think that the final version on the album is basically a final statement by the band, I do think I will try editing the two songs in Audacity just to see what I personally think.

I have done this with other songs, so it won't be anything new to me.  I've edited the end of IT into it's own track, I've edited 6DoIT and ITPoE into single continuous songs (because of shuffle), I've also edited a few songs on TA to combine them because I think they sound better as single songs (Descent of the Nomacs/Dystopian Overture, A Savior in the Square/When Your Time Has Come, The Walking Shadow/My Last Farewell).  On Scenes I also edited off the end of Strange Deja Vu and the beginning of Fatal Tragedy and put them on Through My Words.

I know the band probably never intended any of these changes I made, but I feel it enhances my personal DT listening experience.

I guess I like cleaner transitions than DT has given me sometimes  :biggrin:. And who knows, maybe I will like The Mrror and Lie edited too.  I'm certainly willing to give it a try regardless of what the band intended.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2019, 03:46:56 PM »
I tried that years ago for shits and giggles, combining The Mirror and the end of Lie, to see if it worked, but it didn't.  It runs together rhythmically, yes, but the way that heavy guitar at the end of The Mirror suddenly drops out as the transition is made sounded very unnatural and just didn't work. 

Offline bosk1

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2019, 03:48:19 PM »
I've also edited a few songs on TA to combine them because I think they sound better as single songs (Descent of the Nomacs/Dystopian Overture, A Savior in the Square/When Your Time Has Come, The Walking Shadow/My Last Farewell). 

Fun fact:  The second one (Savior/Time) was actually a single track on the promo version of the album, and was only split on the final version.  I was actually momentarily confused when the album dropped and they were split.  :lol
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2019, 04:08:31 PM »
I've also edited a few songs on TA to combine them because I think they sound better as single songs (Descent of the Nomacs/Dystopian Overture, A Savior in the Square/When Your Time Has Come, The Walking Shadow/My Last Farewell). 

Fun fact:  The second one (Savior/Time) was actually a single track on the promo version of the album, and was only split on the final version.  I was actually momentarily confused when the album dropped and they were split.  :lol

Hey, that is cool!  I guess I'm not completely crazy then :)

I tried that years ago for shits and giggles, combining The Mirror and the end of Lie, to see if it worked, but it didn't.  It runs together rhythmically, yes, but the way that heavy guitar at the end of The Mirror suddenly drops out as the transition is made sounded very unnatural and just didn't work. 


Hmm, that's too bad.  Well, I'll give it a try anyway just because I like messing with songs in Audacity.  But, I'll probably come to the same conclusion you did.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2019, 04:09:33 PM »
Scotty, I read the additional information you cited, and I understand it completely.  And I still have no idea how you reach the conclusion you reach.  But, hey, there are those that reach one conclusion from the evidence, and there are those that are wrong.  :dunno:
...and it's time for you to finally admit that you're wrong even if you don't understand.   :biggrin:
 
 
How many demos from how many bands over the history of music evolved out of one thing and into something completely different.  Just cuz it's in the demo liner notes (official or not) doesn't mean the intentions translate on to the formal studio release.
Except for the fact that what I quote above come from the liners MP wrote many years *after* the fact, where he explains the process behind what was done and how the songs were altered when comparing the demo versions to what appears on the album. What I cited above is MP explaining how the song Lie developed from part of The Mirror into what appeared *on the album* not what is on the demo.

When MP stated they "decided to develop the ideas at the end of The Mirror into something that would be a separate song on its own but yet would still sit in the middle of The Mirror" I think it's pretty obvious what he meant - he meant that they took a section from The Mirror and expanded it into another song that still was in the middle of The Mirror. In other words, the whole thing starts with The Mirror, goes into Lie and the returns to The Mirror. It's interesting to note that on the demo release, The Mirror and Lie are two separate and complete tracks. The demo of Lie is only 5 minutes long - without that final 1.5 minutes that's on the album. If that final 1.5 minutes was supposed to be part of Lie, why didn't they include it?

And jingle - I didn't understand any of your other points, so I didn't respond.
 
 
I don't consider In the Presence of Enemies to be one song; it is two.  Even if it was written originally to be one, it was broken up into two and released that way.  Think of it like the Kill Bill movies, which were eventually broken up into two films as well.
Here's my evidence that some on this forum believe that ItPoE is two songs and SDoIT is eight (see the last part of his post). So Peter Mc, feel free to argue with Shmev on this one!   :biggrin:
 
 
Scotty, I don't think what the band says is what should be written in stone.
Then who should we believe? Whatever some fan says just because that's what he believes? If anything, I think MP, with his elephant memory and attention to detail regarding facts (not opinions) about these sorts of things should be accepted as gospel more than anything else. While some may argue that some of MP's statements have been affected by his ego, especially since he left the band, this was written long before that time and he made an effort to always convey accurate information.
 
 
When art is release to the masses, it is normal for the masses to categorize it accordingly.  Steven Wilson pushed back in his early days at the first few Porcupine Tree albums being called prog, but most called it prog, so it was prog.  I mean, if JP came out tomorrow and said, "Honor Thy Father is a rap song," would that make it rap?  Nope.

Despite my "cheat" earlier in this thread, I think of A Mind Beside Itself in the same way I do Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: a suite of songs that ties together (mostly) nicely, but isn't really a single song.  And in both cases, the band has labeled it as such on live releases (AMBI on Live Scenes, 6DOIT on Score).
Ah ha! So you did cheat! Busted!  :biggrin:

Well, you can argue all you want, but I'll go by what the band says. The band never said that AMBI was a single song, but is has said that SDoIT is, and so I follow that reasoning. Why should I? Because they're the ones who wrote and recorded it. They know better than anyone else what they were doing.

As an aside, how did SW describe the first few PT albums? If not prog, then what? I'd say the first few albums were almost more psychedelic than prog, akin to early PF.
 
 
I listened a little more closely to Lie and until it was mentioned here, I didn't know that the end of the song was originally part of The Mirror in the demo version (I never listened to it).  Although I do think that the final version on the album is basically a final statement by the band, I do think I will try editing the two songs in Audacity just to see what I personally think.

I tried that years ago for shits and giggles, combining The Mirror and the end of Lie, to see if it worked, but it didn't.  It runs together rhythmically, yes, but the way that heavy guitar at the end of The Mirror suddenly drops out as the transition is made sounded very unnatural and just didn't work.
Well if neither of you guys have the Awake demos, I'm sure you can find them on a certain site for reference as to how The Mirror was originally.  ;)

And as for cutting The Mirror out completely, just listen to the way the song flows on LSFNY. It doesn't include that fast guitar section that appears from 4:57 to 5:07 on track 8 of Awake, but includes everything after it, tacked on to the end of The Mirror.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2019, 04:10:38 PM »
I've also edited a few songs on TA to combine them because I think they sound better as single songs (Descent of the Nomacs/Dystopian Overture, A Savior in the Square/When Your Time Has Come, The Walking Shadow/My Last Farewell). 

Fun fact:  The second one (Savior/Time) was actually a single track on the promo version of the album, and was only split on the final version.  I was actually momentarily confused when the album dropped and they were split.  :lol

Hey, that is cool!  I guess I'm not completely crazy then :)


You are completely crazy if you think he's being serious.  ;D
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2019, 04:11:01 PM »
I can't believe Scotty is getting this much grief.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2019, 04:16:16 PM »
By your comment, I would guess you consider the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 to be a part of Lie, correct? .... So, IMO, in this sort of situation, the safest way to go is by what the band says/intends as opposed to personal interpretations based on how it's released or some other arbitrary way.

My copy of Awake has Track 8 listed as Lie. So track 8 is Lie. It's not an interpretation. It isn't open to interpretation. It is not arbitrary. It's written that way on the CD.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2019, 04:17:51 PM »
By your comment, I would guess you consider the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 to be a part of Lie, correct?

I would.


What if that section had been made track 9? Would that change your opinion?

Probably, but it would depend on what name was given to track 9.


Better yet, what are your feelings on ItPoE and the title track to SDoIT?

I don't really see what this has to do with what's being discussed.  The two ITPOE tracks are clearly labeled as parts 1 and 2 of the same song.  Disc 2 of SDOIT (the album) is clearly labeled as being a 42:00 long song called "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" that is split into eight sections.  By contrast, track 8 on Awake -- all 6:33  of it -- is clearly labeled as a song called "Lie" (as opposed to track 7, which is clearly labeled as a song called "The Mirror").

Regardless of how it was done on the demos, the band clearly made a choice to create a song called "Lie" that is separate and distinct from the song called "The Mirror."  That the end of the former has a part that, on a demo, was part of and which is musically similar to the latter doesn't change that.


You cite your evidence from the Demo liner notes.  Demo.  How many demos from how many bands over the history of music evolved out of one thing and into something completely different.  Just cuz it's in the demo liner notes (official or not) doesn't mean the intentions translate on to the formal studio release.

Exactly.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your top ten Dream Theater songs.
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2019, 04:35:29 PM »
Then who should we believe? Whatever some fan says just because that's what he believes? If anything, I think MP, with his elephant memory and attention to detail regarding facts (not opinions) about these sorts of things should be accepted as gospel more than anything else.

Exactly right.  It's just that, with regard to The Mirror, he isn't saying what you think he's saying.
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