Poll

How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?

I trust them completely
Not completely, but quite a bit
I don't trust or distrust them
Not much, but I do at times
I distrust them completely

Voting closes: May 27, 2025, 12:05:53 PM

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Offline Stadler

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #175 on: June 03, 2020, 10:16:05 AM »
Why donít many trust the media?

A week ago, CNN and MSNBC were still going out of their way to shame those going out in public not wearing a mask, due to COVID.

Now, they are praising the protesters of the last week, most of whom arenít wearing masks as these events.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

And FOX is just as bad. The above is the most recent example that is glaring.

I'm not sure I understand, are you saying they are praising the protesters FOR not wearing masks? Because that would definitely be weird.  In my anectodal experience seeing pictures of protests I've seen a lot of people with masks.

No, they are praising the protesters for protesting. But a week ago, anyone who was gathering in public without wearing a mask was selfish and someone they were gonna shame.  Amazing how that changed in an instant.

I know for me it's proof that "identity politics" trumps everything.   Three weeks ago, the Ministry of Memes was working overtime with "clever", "quippy" memes mocking the COVID protestors, highlighting their hypocrisy, making fun of their position, and yet now... dead silence.  Let's not forget that whether any one person thinks their cause worthy, many of those being mocked and singled out WERE protesting their vision of tyranny.

Here, as some have noted, there's not a tremendous effort to separate those that are legit protesting and those that are just opportunists (regardless of their motivations).   

I'm not judging whether the media is right or wrong (morally) in terms of where they prioritize the level of protest.   I am, though, saying that they are wrong for moralizing it to begin with.  They are not the arbiters of our moral temperature; they are a source of information by which we the citizenry can decide where we fall on the moral spectrum.   The fourth estate is supposed to report the facts on the ground, show us that information that we couldn't possibly see on our own, and allow us to arrive at our own moral conclusions. 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 10:26:17 AM by Stadler »

Offline bosk1

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #176 on: June 03, 2020, 10:32:28 AM »
Well said, Gary.  :coolio

If we're airing our grievances against the media, I would also like to add two examples:
1.  Deliberately equating "rioters" and "looters" with protesters.  If the vast, VAST majority of instances, these are two separate, distinct groups.
2.  Overreacting and firing a well-respected media personality for uttering the phrase "all lives matter."  (I say "the media" fired him, because he worked in media)

I assume youíre talking about the Kings announcer? On the one hand, itís a shame that he was fired for basically saying that all lives are equal, but on the flip side, given the cancel culture that now exists (unless youíre on the side of the SJW), he should have been smarter and just not said anything.

Yeah.  Grant Napear.  And I don't disagree about being "smarter."  But a few counterpoints to that (that I don't think you strongly disagree with; I just feel they need to be said): 
(1) Do we really need to be THAT sensitive that something we say that shouldn't be taken as having any racist connotations should be construed that way?  I mean, I guess there's a big part of trying to be sensitive to others' feelings and likely reactions that goes into that.  But I just don't really see how we can live in a society where we have to constantly keep up with ever-changing levels of offense a given group might take to statements that might either be innocuous, or at the very least, were commonly used and bandied about not so very long ago that became taboo overnight.  (2) Napear's community involvement and, more specifically, involvement in the Black community locally, should speak volumes about his character.  And the fact that he very sincerely apologies, without caveat, and without it smacking as p/r and just an attempt to salvage his career, also speaks volumes.  I don't even like the guy, in general, but cannot deny his character or where he stands on racial issues. 

I dunno--maybe that actually says NOTHING about whether he should have been smarter.  But cutting him loose over this is pretty sad, IMO.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #177 on: June 03, 2020, 10:39:11 AM »
I have no take on wether that person was fired legitimatly or not and have no idea of the situation and I won't comment on that.


That being said I think it should be well understood by now that 'Black Lives Matter" doesn't imply ONLY.  So saying "All Lives Matter" as a response in the year of our lord 2020 is very likely a bad faith attack or at the very least a misunderstanding of the issues at stake.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 11:06:10 AM by XeRocks81 »

Offline Stadler

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #178 on: June 03, 2020, 10:50:20 AM »
"Misunderstanding" shouldn't be the basis of a firing though, at least at the social level (all caveats included that the employer can likely fire him for any reason or no reason at all).   I think that's the point.   We ARE allowed to disagree, aren't we?   

There's a double standard when it comes to identity politics issues, and that should be clear to all at this point.   If you're on one side, all bets are off, and who cares about those store owners, whether their feelings were hurt by the protests or the bottles being thrown?  But this guy SAYS something perhaps insensitive and bets are back on.   We now ARE concerned about feelings.

None of this is to advocate for who is ACTUALLY right, but short of libel/slander, that isn't a deciding factor. 

Offline Adami

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #179 on: June 03, 2020, 10:53:09 AM »
"Misunderstanding" shouldn't be the basis of a firing though, at least at the social level (all caveats included that the employer can likely fire him for any reason or no reason at all).   I think that's the point.   We ARE allowed to disagree, aren't we?   

There's a double standard when it comes to identity politics issues, and that should be clear to all at this point.   If you're on one side, all bets are off, and who cares about those store owners, whether their feelings were hurt by the protests or the bottles being thrown?  But this guy SAYS something perhaps insensitive and bets are back on.   We now ARE concerned about feelings.

None of this is to advocate for who is ACTUALLY right, but short of libel/slander, that isn't a deciding factor.

I agree. But that's the free market baby. They did (in their heads at least) a cost-benefit analysis and decided it was a better business decision to fire him than to risk their profits due to backlash. They gave the market what it wanted.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #180 on: June 03, 2020, 11:01:08 AM »
All true.  And also true that a segment of the population, as represented here by Stadler and I, are voicing our opposition to the fact that the net result is to chill discourse, further the echo chamber society, and create many more societal problems than it solves.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #181 on: June 03, 2020, 11:02:45 AM »
"Misunderstanding" shouldn't be the basis of a firing though, at least at the social level (all caveats included that the employer can likely fire him for any reason or no reason at all).   I think that's the point.   We ARE allowed to disagree, aren't we?   

There's a double standard when it comes to identity politics issues, and that should be clear to all at this point.   If you're on one side, all bets are off, and who cares about those store owners, whether their feelings were hurt by the protests or the bottles being thrown?  But this guy SAYS something perhaps insensitive and bets are back on.   We now ARE concerned about feelings.

None of this is to advocate for who is ACTUALLY right, but short of libel/slander, that isn't a deciding factor.

I agree. But that's the free market baby. They did (in their heads at least) a cost-benefit analysis and decided it was a better business decision to fire him than to risk their profits due to backlash. They gave the market what it wanted.

And that's fine; an advocate of the market like me sees that for what it is.   But let's not confuse that with "change", and let's not scratch our heads and wonder why all those firings didn't result in that cop treating George Floyd with compassion or human kindness, which is what a lot of people - not necessarily you, not necessarily here at DTF - are doing.

EDIT:  What Bosk said.  :)

Offline Adami

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #182 on: June 03, 2020, 11:03:47 AM »
All true.  And also true that a segment of the population, as represented here by Stadler and I, are voicing our opposition to the fact that the net result is to chill discourse, further the echo chamber society, and create many more societal problems than it solves.

Oh I agree. I just thought it was important to recognize one of the main mechanisms of the problem is something a lot of people advocate for at all costs. This is one of those costs.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #183 on: June 03, 2020, 11:05:43 AM »
"Misunderstanding" shouldn't be the basis of a firing though, at least at the social level (all caveats included that the employer can likely fire him for any reason or no reason at all).   I think that's the point.   We ARE allowed to disagree, aren't we?   

There's a double standard when it comes to identity politics issues, and that should be clear to all at this point.   If you're on one side, all bets are off, and who cares about those store owners, whether their feelings were hurt by the protests or the bottles being thrown?  But this guy SAYS something perhaps insensitive and bets are back on.   We now ARE concerned about feelings.

None of this is to advocate for who is ACTUALLY right, but short of libel/slander, that isn't a deciding factor.

I did say I didn'T want to comment on that didn't I?   :laugh: :P

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #184 on: June 03, 2020, 11:37:54 AM »
Well said, Gary.  :coolio

If we're airing our grievances against the media, I would also like to add two examples:
1.  Deliberately equating "rioters" and "looters" with protesters.  If the vast, VAST majority of instances, these are two separate, distinct groups.
2.  Overreacting and firing a well-respected media personality for uttering the phrase "all lives matter."  (I say "the media" fired him, because he worked in media)

I assume youíre talking about the Kings announcer? On the one hand, itís a shame that he was fired for basically saying that all lives are equal, but on the flip side, given the cancel culture that now exists (unless youíre on the side of the SJW), he should have been smarter and just not said anything.

Yeah.  Grant Napear.  And I don't disagree about being "smarter."  But a few counterpoints to that (that I don't think you strongly disagree with; I just feel they need to be said): 
(1) Do we really need to be THAT sensitive that something we say that shouldn't be taken as having any racist connotations should be construed that way?  I mean, I guess there's a big part of trying to be sensitive to others' feelings and likely reactions that goes into that.  But I just don't really see how we can live in a society where we have to constantly keep up with ever-changing levels of offense a given group might take to statements that might either be innocuous, or at the very least, were commonly used and bandied about not so very long ago that became taboo overnight.  (2) Napear's community involvement and, more specifically, involvement in the Black community locally, should speak volumes about his character.  And the fact that he very sincerely apologies, without caveat, and without it smacking as p/r and just an attempt to salvage his career, also speaks volumes.  I don't even like the guy, in general, but cannot deny his character or where he stands on racial issues. 

I dunno--maybe that actually says NOTHING about whether he should have been smarter.  But cutting him loose over this is pretty sad, IMO.
I get really tired of seeing white people respond to "Black Lives Matter" with "All Lives Matter", but there's no way the guy should have been fired for making such a comment, especially given his track record.

We'll never get to Dr. King's hope of judging people by the content of their character by firing someone for saying something that is basically innocuous. Nothing good was accomplished by this firing.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #185 on: June 03, 2020, 12:11:31 PM »


I know for me it's proof that "identity politics" trumps everything.   Three weeks ago, the Ministry of Memes was working overtime with "clever", "quippy" memes mocking the COVID protestors, highlighting their hypocrisy, making fun of their position, and yet now... dead silence.  Let's not forget that whether any one person thinks their cause worthy, many of those being mocked and singled out WERE protesting their vision of tyranny.

Here, as some have noted, there's not a tremendous effort to separate those that are legit protesting and those that are just opportunists (regardless of their motivations).   

I'm not judging whether the media is right or wrong (morally) in terms of where they prioritize the level of protest.   I am, though, saying that they are wrong for moralizing it to begin with.  They are not the arbiters of our moral temperature; they are a source of information by which we the citizenry can decide where we fall on the moral spectrum.   The fourth estate is supposed to report the facts on the ground, show us that information that we couldn't possibly see on our own, and allow us to arrive at our own moral conclusions.

Agreed, and it's maddening beyond belief.

Yeah.  Grant Napear.  And I don't disagree about being "smarter."  But a few counterpoints to that (that I don't think you strongly disagree with; I just feel they need to be said): 
(1) Do we really need to be THAT sensitive that something we say that shouldn't be taken as having any racist connotations should be construed that way?  I mean, I guess there's a big part of trying to be sensitive to others' feelings and likely reactions that goes into that.  But I just don't really see how we can live in a society where we have to constantly keep up with ever-changing levels of offense a given group might take to statements that might either be innocuous, or at the very least, were commonly used and bandied about not so very long ago that became taboo overnight.  (2) Napear's community involvement and, more specifically, involvement in the Black community locally, should speak volumes about his character.  And the fact that he very sincerely apologies, without caveat, and without it smacking as p/r and just an attempt to salvage his career, also speaks volumes.  I don't even like the guy, in general, but cannot deny his character or where he stands on racial issues. 

I dunno--maybe that actually says NOTHING about whether he should have been smarter.  But cutting him loose over this is pretty sad, IMO.

Agreed, but, as I mentioned earlier, this is the cancel culture we are in now. I am waiting for the hammer to come down on the Broncos coach now for what he said about race in the last 24 hours.

"Misunderstanding" shouldn't be the basis of a firing though, at least at the social level (all caveats included that the employer can likely fire him for any reason or no reason at all).   I think that's the point.   We ARE allowed to disagree, aren't we?   

There's a double standard when it comes to identity politics issues, and that should be clear to all at this point.   If you're on one side, all bets are off, and who cares about those store owners, whether their feelings were hurt by the protests or the bottles being thrown?  But this guy SAYS something perhaps insensitive and bets are back on.   We now ARE concerned about feelings.

None of this is to advocate for who is ACTUALLY right, but short of libel/slander, that isn't a deciding factor.

Yep.

Take Jimmy Fallon.  I never watch any late night talk show, but I catch clips here and there on YT, and he is funny, but it comes out about him doing blackface 20 years ago.  All it takes is an apology and it is over and done with, which is the way it should be, but had that been someone not part of the "elite," he would have been gone right away.  That kind of double standard when it comes to the cancel culture is very troubling.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #186 on: June 03, 2020, 12:15:15 PM »
but had that been someone not part of the "elite," he been a Conservative/Republican/Christian he would have been gone right away. 

Fixed that for ya Kev  ;)
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #187 on: June 03, 2020, 12:24:50 PM »
but had that been someone not part of the "elite," he been a Conservative/Republican/Christian he would have been gone right away. 

Fixed that for ya Kev  ;)

Haha, I was trying to not be that direct.  Of course, it all depends on who your employee is, as there is no one person at the top saying, "fire that person, but give that one a pass," but the trend is more than obvious.

Offline Adami

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #188 on: June 03, 2020, 12:44:02 PM »
I dunno. Mel Gibson seems to be working just fine.

A lot of it really depends on how they handle it after. A lot of people just handle it the worst possible way and it screws them up. Others, if they weather the storm, eventually get back to being just fine.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #189 on: June 03, 2020, 12:56:54 PM »
Mel Gibson is almost the exception that proves the rule, in several ways.   

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #190 on: June 03, 2020, 12:59:21 PM »
All true.  And also true that a segment of the population, as represented here by Stadler and I, are voicing our opposition to the fact that the net result is to chill discourse, further the echo chamber society, and create many more societal problems than it solves.

Apparently, the segment isn't big enough. If it was, the NBA would be reconsidering firing him.  It's actually pretty scary, how making one little slip of a dumb decision can cost you your entire career/lifestyle.
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Offline Chino

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #191 on: June 03, 2020, 01:57:58 PM »
All true.  And also true that a segment of the population, as represented here by Stadler and I, are voicing our opposition to the fact that the net result is to chill discourse, further the echo chamber society, and create many more societal problems than it solves.

Apparently, the segment isn't big enough. If it was, the NBA would be reconsidering firing him.  It's actually pretty scary, how making one little slip of a dumb decision can cost you your entire career/lifestyle.

What amazes me is why anyone would even chance it these days. Some part of that guy's brain must have thought to at least some degree "in today's climate, especially given the circumstance in this very moment, this could possibly cause a shitstorm". Why say anything at all? I'm not saying the guy was right or wrong. I think it sucks for him regardless.   

Maybe this is easy to say because I'm not one, but if I'm a business owner, whether I agree with the guy or not, this would make me second guess if they're the type of employee I want (contingent on the business of course) on my payroll. Any way you slice it, this was terrible judgement on this guy's part. Do I want to trust my business to people with such terrible judgement on the most basic of concepts? I don't think so.


Offline Adami

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #192 on: June 03, 2020, 01:59:23 PM »
I'd never heard of this guy (not a sports fan) but I looked into it, and his responses seem pretty good. I wouldn't be shocked if, in a few weeks, he's rehired. Dude seemed just ignorant which is not a crime to me, as long as we don't cling to it.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #193 on: June 03, 2020, 02:35:19 PM »
All true.  And also true that a segment of the population, as represented here by Stadler and I, are voicing our opposition to the fact that the net result is to chill discourse, further the echo chamber society, and create many more societal problems than it solves.

Apparently, the segment isn't big enough. If it was, the NBA would be reconsidering firing him.  It's actually pretty scary, how making one little slip of a dumb decision can cost you your entire career/lifestyle.

What amazes me is why anyone would even chance it these days. Some part of that guy's brain must have thought to at least some degree "in today's climate, especially given the circumstance in this very moment, this could possibly cause a shitstorm". Why say anything at all? I'm not saying the guy was right or wrong. I think it sucks for him regardless.   

Maybe this is easy to say because I'm not one, but if I'm a business owner, whether I agree with the guy or not, this would make me second guess if they're the type of employee I want (contingent on the business of course) on my payroll. Any way you slice it, this was terrible judgement on this guy's part. Do I want to trust my business to people with such terrible judgement on the most basic of concepts? I don't think so.

I respect your point of view - and don't disagree with the "business owner" discussion because that's a different set of metrics - but it all comes down to values, and with that behavior we're sending a stark message that we as individuals don't really have full say in what our own values are.   Why couldn't we value his courage?  Why does "agreement" have to be a part of the analysis as to whether an opinion can or should be voiced?   

Offline Adami

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #194 on: June 03, 2020, 02:47:18 PM »
I'm in between.

I'm not going to value someone's courage in cases like this. He didn't say it to be brave. He admitted he said it out of ignorance. I just don't feel ignorance should be punished, it should be educated...kindly and with respect.

This doesn't AT ALL apply to this guy, but saying anti-cultural things is not courageous.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #195 on: June 03, 2020, 03:38:26 PM »
I dunno. Mel Gibson seems to be working just fine.


Now, sure, but didn't he not get any work in Hollywood for like 3-4 years?  He wormed his way back in, but the initial shunning with him was quick and decisive. 

Offline Adami

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #196 on: June 03, 2020, 03:41:48 PM »
I dunno. Mel Gibson seems to be working just fine.


Now, sure, but didn't he not get any work in Hollywood for like 3-4 years?  He wormed his way back in, but the initial shunning with him was quick and decisive.

He also went way further than most people did. And still seems fine.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #197 on: June 03, 2020, 03:44:58 PM »
I dunno. Mel Gibson seems to be working just fine.


Now, sure, but didn't he not get any work in Hollywood for like 3-4 years?  He wormed his way back in, but the initial shunning with him was quick and decisive.

He also went way further than most people did. And still seems fine.

Very true.  His "cancelling" was well deserved, and if he had never worked in the industry again, I wouldn't have felt the least bit sorry for him.  I think it helped him to have people like Robert Downey Jr. really going to bat for him to get him back in the loop, although I am guessing there are many out there who won't work with him under any circumstance, although Hollywood is loaded with hypocrites, so their convictions will crumble quickly for the right money and/or role.

Offline bosk1

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #198 on: June 03, 2020, 05:16:55 PM »
I'd never heard of this guy (not a sports fan) but I looked into it, and his responses seem pretty good. I wouldn't be shocked if, in a few weeks, he's rehired. Dude seemed just ignorant which is not a crime to me, as long as we don't cling to it.

Even if you were a sports fan, unless you are local, you wouldn't have heard of him before this anyway.  He is the color commentator for a team in a small market that has almost zero popularity outside of its market, and is a personality on local sports radio in said small market.  But I think your assessment is right on.  And, for context, he had been critical of Demarcus Cousins as a player and person when Cousins was a player here on the Kings.  (some of that criticism was of Cousins as a player; some as a teammate and his reputation for being a "locker room cancer"; and some for his personal life, such as a recording of him that became public when the mother of one of his children filed for a restraining order after he, among other things, threatened to shoot her in the face)  Fast forward a few years, Cousins still holds a grudge, and baited Napear into the comment in the heat of discussion.
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Offline Chino

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #199 on: June 04, 2020, 05:51:19 AM »
All true.  And also true that a segment of the population, as represented here by Stadler and I, are voicing our opposition to the fact that the net result is to chill discourse, further the echo chamber society, and create many more societal problems than it solves.

Apparently, the segment isn't big enough. If it was, the NBA would be reconsidering firing him.  It's actually pretty scary, how making one little slip of a dumb decision can cost you your entire career/lifestyle.

What amazes me is why anyone would even chance it these days. Some part of that guy's brain must have thought to at least some degree "in today's climate, especially given the circumstance in this very moment, this could possibly cause a shitstorm". Why say anything at all? I'm not saying the guy was right or wrong. I think it sucks for him regardless.   

Maybe this is easy to say because I'm not one, but if I'm a business owner, whether I agree with the guy or not, this would make me second guess if they're the type of employee I want (contingent on the business of course) on my payroll. Any way you slice it, this was terrible judgement on this guy's part. Do I want to trust my business to people with such terrible judgement on the most basic of concepts? I don't think so.

I respect your point of view - and don't disagree with the "business owner" discussion because that's a different set of metrics - but it all comes down to values, and with that behavior we're sending a stark message that we as individuals don't really have full say in what our own values are.   Why couldn't we value his courage?  Why does "agreement" have to be a part of the analysis as to whether an opinion can or should be voiced?

I don't think this had to do with him not "agreeing". I don't know. I struggling to phrase what I'm trying to say. Maybe it's just too early. But I feel like there was a million things this guy could have chosen to say, and he landed on the one that's pretty controversial in all this. The one that was created in direct opposition to a black man taking a knee during the anthem to protest the very thing that lead to George Floyd's murder. The one that is on t-shirts and can usually be found in the same crowds as "fuck your feelings", "stomp my flag, I'll stomp your ass", and "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat". Regardless of the dude's intent behind his choice of words, he chose a phrase that is regularly associated with a very particular group of people. A group that's perceived as potentially hot headed and violent. So much so, Michigan's legislators refused to gather and do their jobs at the capitol because of their presence. A group that's being encouraged by a president who says things to police like "When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just seen them thrown in, rough. Please donít be too nice". 

I'm not saying that's the case all the time, but it's the default perception of a lot of people for a reason.

Do I think he deserved what he got? No. Especially since the guy doesn't seem like he's been a piece of shit his whole career and is only now getting called out. Do I think he's an idiot? Yeah. Very much so.



Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #200 on: June 04, 2020, 07:11:16 AM »
All true.  And also true that a segment of the population, as represented here by Stadler and I, are voicing our opposition to the fact that the net result is to chill discourse, further the echo chamber society, and create many more societal problems than it solves.

Apparently, the segment isn't big enough. If it was, the NBA would be reconsidering firing him.  It's actually pretty scary, how making one little slip of a dumb decision can cost you your entire career/lifestyle.

What amazes me is why anyone would even chance it these days. Some part of that guy's brain must have thought to at least some degree "in today's climate, especially given the circumstance in this very moment, this could possibly cause a shitstorm". Why say anything at all? I'm not saying the guy was right or wrong. I think it sucks for him regardless.   

Maybe this is easy to say because I'm not one, but if I'm a business owner, whether I agree with the guy or not, this would make me second guess if they're the type of employee I want (contingent on the business of course) on my payroll. Any way you slice it, this was terrible judgement on this guy's part. Do I want to trust my business to people with such terrible judgement on the most basic of concepts? I don't think so.

It's making me think, from whom are the Knicks (as a business) losing money? If it's nothing related to basketball, it's all sponsorships from companies.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #201 on: June 04, 2020, 08:11:18 AM »
I'm in between.

I'm not going to value someone's courage in cases like this. He didn't say it to be brave. He admitted he said it out of ignorance. I just don't feel ignorance should be punished, it should be educated...kindly and with respect.

This doesn't AT ALL apply to this guy, but saying anti-cultural things is not courageous.

I kind of disagree with that.  I don't always value "speech" based on the content.   In a culture where "bullying" is so prevalent - and I mean that broadly; I think there's just as much bullying from the identity politics advocates as from those they are supposedly fighting against - that when people speak "their truth", it's courageous regardless what the message is.   THEN we can parse out what the actual merits are of the information, but telling people to "shut the fuck up" because you don't like what they say* solves nothing

* EXACTLY what Malcolm Jenkins said to Drew Brees when Drew opined that disrespecting the flag wasn't the best way of protesting racial injustice. 

And speaking of Brees - who has apologized - sad to see so much of the push back be in this form:  ""Y'all got to check y'all teammates. Michael Thomas, I salute you bruh," Jackson said. "F--- Drew Brees. Way to check his ass. If you ain't down with us, you on the other side.""   Stephen Jackson, friend of George Floyd (that quote is in the same article I cited).  Ed Reed (also in that article) said something similar.   With us or against us, no room for any subjectivity.   I can't help but feel like we're destined to repeat this over and over. 

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #202 on: June 04, 2020, 08:18:56 AM »
I dunno. Mel Gibson seems to be working just fine.


Now, sure, but didn't he not get any work in Hollywood for like 3-4 years?  He wormed his way back in, but the initial shunning with him was quick and decisive.

He also went way further than most people did. And still seems fine.

Very true.  His "cancelling" was well deserved, and if he had never worked in the industry again, I wouldn't have felt the least bit sorry for him.  I think it helped him to have people like Robert Downey Jr. really going to bat for him to get him back in the loop, although I am guessing there are many out there who won't work with him under any circumstance, although Hollywood is loaded with hypocrites, so their convictions will crumble quickly for the right money and/or role.

This is delicate, because I'm not really a Mel Gibson fan and am not defending his words in any way, but I think there was more to this.  First, there was his flagrant hate, but it was wrapped up at the time with his religious beliefs, which made it seem more egregious.  He was "cancelled" (I hate that term, but whatevs) for a spell, but it was Jodie Foster that really gave him the path back; I feel like if it was just pure hate, if that was his character as determined by those that know him best, we wouldn't be seeing him now.  He's tempered, but not really walked back from his RELIGIOUS position, though he's completely disavowed the hate aspect of some of his behavior.   He's not just "back", he's accepted; you don't get Academy Award nominations if you don't have at least some moral support from the community. 

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #203 on: June 04, 2020, 08:24:00 AM »
All true.  And also true that a segment of the population, as represented here by Stadler and I, are voicing our opposition to the fact that the net result is to chill discourse, further the echo chamber society, and create many more societal problems than it solves.

Apparently, the segment isn't big enough. If it was, the NBA would be reconsidering firing him.  It's actually pretty scary, how making one little slip of a dumb decision can cost you your entire career/lifestyle.

What amazes me is why anyone would even chance it these days. Some part of that guy's brain must have thought to at least some degree "in today's climate, especially given the circumstance in this very moment, this could possibly cause a shitstorm". Why say anything at all? I'm not saying the guy was right or wrong. I think it sucks for him regardless.   

Maybe this is easy to say because I'm not one, but if I'm a business owner, whether I agree with the guy or not, this would make me second guess if they're the type of employee I want (contingent on the business of course) on my payroll. Any way you slice it, this was terrible judgement on this guy's part. Do I want to trust my business to people with such terrible judgement on the most basic of concepts? I don't think so.

I respect your point of view - and don't disagree with the "business owner" discussion because that's a different set of metrics - but it all comes down to values, and with that behavior we're sending a stark message that we as individuals don't really have full say in what our own values are.   Why couldn't we value his courage?  Why does "agreement" have to be a part of the analysis as to whether an opinion can or should be voiced?

I don't think this had to do with him not "agreeing". I don't know. I struggling to phrase what I'm trying to say. Maybe it's just too early. But I feel like there was a million things this guy could have chosen to say, and he landed on the one that's pretty controversial in all this. The one that was created in direct opposition to a black man taking a knee during the anthem to protest the very thing that lead to George Floyd's murder. The one that is on t-shirts and can usually be found in the same crowds as "fuck your feelings", "stomp my flag, I'll stomp your ass", and "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat". Regardless of the dude's intent behind his choice of words, he chose a phrase that is regularly associated with a very particular group of people. A group that's perceived as potentially hot headed and violent. So much so, Michigan's legislators refused to gather and do their jobs at the capitol because of their presence. A group that's being encouraged by a president who says things to police like "When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just seen them thrown in, rough. Please donít be too nice". 

I'm not saying that's the case all the time, but it's the default perception of a lot of people for a reason.

Do I think he deserved what he got? No. Especially since the guy doesn't seem like he's been a piece of shit his whole career and is only now getting called out. Do I think he's an idiot? Yeah. Very much so.

I read what you wrote with interest, and I think I get where you're coming from.  But what stuck with me most was the line in bold.    Isn't, at it's heart, what we're (those of us that think that change IS overdue, because I do believe that, even if I don't buy in to all the trappings around that thought) trying to accomplish is to remove the reliance on "perception"?   Isn't that what got us here?   The fact that some police "perceive" the black man as a criminal or less than deserving of basic human decency?   

That's why so much of this "protest" rings false to me (similar to the criticisms of the President, even when I agree with them).   It's a struggle for me to get behind a criticism of the mentality/behavior that adopts that SAME mentality/behavior to make the point.  That's not "better", that's just "same arrows, pointed in a different direction".  It's akin to saying "Man, drugs be whack.  you can't be doing that meth. It'll kill you. Here, use this crack instead."   

Offline Adami

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #204 on: June 04, 2020, 08:32:57 AM »
I dunno. Mel Gibson seems to be working just fine.


Now, sure, but didn't he not get any work in Hollywood for like 3-4 years?  He wormed his way back in, but the initial shunning with him was quick and decisive.

He also went way further than most people did. And still seems fine.

Very true.  His "cancelling" was well deserved, and if he had never worked in the industry again, I wouldn't have felt the least bit sorry for him.  I think it helped him to have people like Robert Downey Jr. really going to bat for him to get him back in the loop, although I am guessing there are many out there who won't work with him under any circumstance, although Hollywood is loaded with hypocrites, so their convictions will crumble quickly for the right money and/or role.

This is delicate, because I'm not really a Mel Gibson fan and am not defending his words in any way, but I think there was more to this.  First, there was his flagrant hate, but it was wrapped up at the time with his religious beliefs, which made it seem more egregious.  He was "cancelled" (I hate that term, but whatevs) for a spell, but it was Jodie Foster that really gave him the path back; I feel like if it was just pure hate, if that was his character as determined by those that know him best, we wouldn't be seeing him now.  He's tempered, but not really walked back from his RELIGIOUS position, though he's completely disavowed the hate aspect of some of his behavior.   He's not just "back", he's accepted; you don't get Academy Award nominations if you don't have at least some moral support from the community.

I might be misreading this, but are you implying that he was only REALLY "cancelled" because he was religious and not because he used racial slurs, beat his wife and made extremely anti-semitic comments on multiple occasions and showed very little if any actual remorse at all?

Edit: I emphasize REALLY to show that his actions did have some impact, but they would not have had much impact if he had not been a religious Catholic as well.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 08:58:59 AM by Adami »
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Offline Chino

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #205 on: June 04, 2020, 08:49:53 AM »
All true.  And also true that a segment of the population, as represented here by Stadler and I, are voicing our opposition to the fact that the net result is to chill discourse, further the echo chamber society, and create many more societal problems than it solves.

Apparently, the segment isn't big enough. If it was, the NBA would be reconsidering firing him.  It's actually pretty scary, how making one little slip of a dumb decision can cost you your entire career/lifestyle.

What amazes me is why anyone would even chance it these days. Some part of that guy's brain must have thought to at least some degree "in today's climate, especially given the circumstance in this very moment, this could possibly cause a shitstorm". Why say anything at all? I'm not saying the guy was right or wrong. I think it sucks for him regardless.   

Maybe this is easy to say because I'm not one, but if I'm a business owner, whether I agree with the guy or not, this would make me second guess if they're the type of employee I want (contingent on the business of course) on my payroll. Any way you slice it, this was terrible judgement on this guy's part. Do I want to trust my business to people with such terrible judgement on the most basic of concepts? I don't think so.

I respect your point of view - and don't disagree with the "business owner" discussion because that's a different set of metrics - but it all comes down to values, and with that behavior we're sending a stark message that we as individuals don't really have full say in what our own values are.   Why couldn't we value his courage?  Why does "agreement" have to be a part of the analysis as to whether an opinion can or should be voiced?

I don't think this had to do with him not "agreeing". I don't know. I struggling to phrase what I'm trying to say. Maybe it's just too early. But I feel like there was a million things this guy could have chosen to say, and he landed on the one that's pretty controversial in all this. The one that was created in direct opposition to a black man taking a knee during the anthem to protest the very thing that lead to George Floyd's murder. The one that is on t-shirts and can usually be found in the same crowds as "fuck your feelings", "stomp my flag, I'll stomp your ass", and "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat". Regardless of the dude's intent behind his choice of words, he chose a phrase that is regularly associated with a very particular group of people. A group that's perceived as potentially hot headed and violent. So much so, Michigan's legislators refused to gather and do their jobs at the capitol because of their presence. A group that's being encouraged by a president who says things to police like "When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just seen them thrown in, rough. Please donít be too nice". 

I'm not saying that's the case all the time, but it's the default perception of a lot of people for a reason.

Do I think he deserved what he got? No. Especially since the guy doesn't seem like he's been a piece of shit his whole career and is only now getting called out. Do I think he's an idiot? Yeah. Very much so.

I read what you wrote with interest, and I think I get where you're coming from.  But what stuck with me most was the line in bold.    Isn't, at it's heart, what we're (those of us that think that change IS overdue, because I do believe that, even if I don't buy in to all the trappings around that thought) trying to accomplish is to remove the reliance on "perception"?   Isn't that what got us here?   The fact that some police "perceive" the black man as a criminal or less than deserving of basic human decency?   

That's why so much of this "protest" rings false to me (similar to the criticisms of the President, even when I agree with them).   It's a struggle for me to get behind a criticism of the mentality/behavior that adopts that SAME mentality/behavior to make the point.  That's not "better", that's just "same arrows, pointed in a different direction".  It's akin to saying "Man, drugs be whack.  you can't be doing that meth. It'll kill you. Here, use this crack instead."   

I hear you, and that's why I'm sort of torn on this one. I mean, there's a line somewhere with language. I think we can all agree on that. If a guy is standing up to lead a KKK rally, at some point you stop "perceiving" who/what that person is, and actually come to terms with the realization that they're just kind of a dick. One who's possibly willing to hang someone because of the color of their skin. Also, I hope it goes without saying that I'm not saying that "all lives matter" makes someone equivalent to a KKK member. This is a phrase that can go either way depending who's saying it and what it's in response to.

Offline Adami

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #206 on: June 04, 2020, 08:49:56 AM »
I'm in between.

I'm not going to value someone's courage in cases like this. He didn't say it to be brave. He admitted he said it out of ignorance. I just don't feel ignorance should be punished, it should be educated...kindly and with respect.

This doesn't AT ALL apply to this guy, but saying anti-cultural things is not courageous.

I kind of disagree with that.  I don't always value "speech" based on the content.   In a culture where "bullying" is so prevalent - and I mean that broadly; I think there's just as much bullying from the identity politics advocates as from those they are supposedly fighting against - that when people speak "their truth", it's courageous regardless what the message is.   THEN we can parse out what the actual merits are of the information, but telling people to "shut the fuck up" because you don't like what they say* solves nothing

* EXACTLY what Malcolm Jenkins said to Drew Brees when Drew opined that disrespecting the flag wasn't the best way of protesting racial injustice. 

And speaking of Brees - who has apologized - sad to see so much of the push back be in this form:  ""Y'all got to check y'all teammates. Michael Thomas, I salute you bruh," Jackson said. "F--- Drew Brees. Way to check his ass. If you ain't down with us, you on the other side.""   Stephen Jackson, friend of George Floyd (that quote is in the same article I cited).  Ed Reed (also in that article) said something similar.   With us or against us, no room for any subjectivity.   I can't help but feel like we're destined to repeat this over and over.

I am not shocked you disagree.  :lol I'd be worried if you didn't! So at least I know you're doing okay.

But I don't disagree that bullying is bad. You just seem to have chosen one side to defend over the other, which I know you'll deny. Saying "SHUT THE HELL UP!" is no more bullying that "ALL LIVES MATTER!" Both only serve to try shut the other side up. Again, I do NOT think this particular guy used it in that way, so I'm not talking about him. But each side bullies the other, just in different ways. Saying ALL LIVES MATTER! is no more brave than SHUT THE HELL UP! They're both pretty similar. It's just that, for whatever reasons, one seems to speak more to you than the other, which is cool.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #207 on: June 04, 2020, 11:01:56 AM »
I dunno. Mel Gibson seems to be working just fine.


Now, sure, but didn't he not get any work in Hollywood for like 3-4 years?  He wormed his way back in, but the initial shunning with him was quick and decisive.

He also went way further than most people did. And still seems fine.

Very true.  His "cancelling" was well deserved, and if he had never worked in the industry again, I wouldn't have felt the least bit sorry for him.  I think it helped him to have people like Robert Downey Jr. really going to bat for him to get him back in the loop, although I am guessing there are many out there who won't work with him under any circumstance, although Hollywood is loaded with hypocrites, so their convictions will crumble quickly for the right money and/or role.

This is delicate, because I'm not really a Mel Gibson fan and am not defending his words in any way, but I think there was more to this.  First, there was his flagrant hate, but it was wrapped up at the time with his religious beliefs, which made it seem more egregious.  He was "cancelled" (I hate that term, but whatevs) for a spell, but it was Jodie Foster that really gave him the path back; I feel like if it was just pure hate, if that was his character as determined by those that know him best, we wouldn't be seeing him now.  He's tempered, but not really walked back from his RELIGIOUS position, though he's completely disavowed the hate aspect of some of his behavior.   He's not just "back", he's accepted; you don't get Academy Award nominations if you don't have at least some moral support from the community.

I might be misreading this, but are you implying that he was only REALLY "cancelled" because he was religious and not because he used racial slurs, beat his wife and made extremely anti-semitic comments on multiple occasions and showed very little if any actual remorse at all?

Edit: I emphasize REALLY to show that his actions did have some impact, but they would not have had much impact if he had not been a religious Catholic as well.

No; I'm saying people were more inclined to dismiss him because of his religious views.  He used the words, no doubt, but there's evidence that the leaked tapes were doctored, and it is in those tapes that the domestic abuse was allegedly "admitted to".   I think it's telling that activists like Jodie Foster and Whoopi Goldberg gave him the benefit of the doubt.  I think he did some bad things, but I think there's an element of cancel culture in there as well.   

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #208 on: June 04, 2020, 11:08:41 AM »
I'm in between.

I'm not going to value someone's courage in cases like this. He didn't say it to be brave. He admitted he said it out of ignorance. I just don't feel ignorance should be punished, it should be educated...kindly and with respect.

This doesn't AT ALL apply to this guy, but saying anti-cultural things is not courageous.

I kind of disagree with that.  I don't always value "speech" based on the content.   In a culture where "bullying" is so prevalent - and I mean that broadly; I think there's just as much bullying from the identity politics advocates as from those they are supposedly fighting against - that when people speak "their truth", it's courageous regardless what the message is.   THEN we can parse out what the actual merits are of the information, but telling people to "shut the fuck up" because you don't like what they say* solves nothing

* EXACTLY what Malcolm Jenkins said to Drew Brees when Drew opined that disrespecting the flag wasn't the best way of protesting racial injustice. 

And speaking of Brees - who has apologized - sad to see so much of the push back be in this form:  ""Y'all got to check y'all teammates. Michael Thomas, I salute you bruh," Jackson said. "F--- Drew Brees. Way to check his ass. If you ain't down with us, you on the other side.""   Stephen Jackson, friend of George Floyd (that quote is in the same article I cited).  Ed Reed (also in that article) said something similar.   With us or against us, no room for any subjectivity.   I can't help but feel like we're destined to repeat this over and over.

I am not shocked you disagree.  :lol I'd be worried if you didn't! So at least I know you're doing okay.

But I don't disagree that bullying is bad. You just seem to have chosen one side to defend over the other, which I know you'll deny. Saying "SHUT THE HELL UP!" is no more bullying that "ALL LIVES MATTER!" Both only serve to try shut the other side up. Again, I do NOT think this particular guy used it in that way, so I'm not talking about him. But each side bullies the other, just in different ways. Saying ALL LIVES MATTER! is no more brave than SHUT THE HELL UP! They're both pretty similar. It's just that, for whatever reasons, one seems to speak more to you than the other, which is cool.

But no.  I haven't chosen any side, and to think I did is to invoke "you're with us or against us", and I categorically reject that.   I think right now there are plenty advocating for the "Black Lives Matter" point of view and my little voice isn't necessary or meaningful in that chorus in order to allow me to make other, more interesting (to me, anyway) points. 

Please don't assume that one "speaks to me" any more than another.  That's the kind of assumption that I'm most railing against.   

Offline Adami

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Re: How much do you trust the news media (here in the States)?
« Reply #209 on: June 04, 2020, 11:10:48 AM »
I apologize.


bro hug?
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