NBA 2020-2021 - v. 2021 Finals: Milwaukee and Giannis rule the basketball world

[Indiscipline]

Yeah, and the lack of Isiah Thomas is a bit disconcerting.

[TAC]

[Indiscipline]

 

I mean the backstabber, not the backstabbed

[TheOutlawXanadu]

A well-done project, yes, but Kevin Garnett being 8th is a major WTF.  I don't know anyone who would rank Garnett ahead of Bird and Magic all-time.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but the logic behind it all ties together. I think the idea (not that you don't understand the idea, but I'm just speaking aloud) is that [1] situation matters and [2] longevity is really important. Garnett was in about the worst situation ever and had great longevity. Magic was in about the best situation ever and had weak longevity. If you adjust for situation and factor in longevity, while of course incorporating performance and stats, maybe Garnett should be in the top-ten.

Again... Don't know that I agree. But as someone who is willing to rank LeBron ahead of MJ despite their vast differences in accomplishments, I'm not going to fight back too hard against giving KG that same kind of wiggle room. Just my two cents, as always.

[Cool Chris]

That was my thought as well, though I don't know if I'd consider Magic's longevity "weak." 12 straight quality years, missing only part of one season due to injury.

[jingle.boy]

I don't get the longevity argument.  I'm a firm believer in quality > quantity  And with Magic, was the situation as good as it was *for* him, or *because* of him (at least in some ways).  Could you have put any A-list player from the 80s in that situation, and they perform as well?  Conversely, could you put Magic in a mediocre team, and he elevates it to contender-status?

I tend to think Magic's magic was more of his own doing, rather than a product of his situation.

[Indiscipline]

Longevity as a parameter is a bit unfair towards guys playing in Chuck Taylors and in favour of those getting cryo-baths 

[robbob]

Really enjoying The Last Dance, great interviews and behind the scene footage.

As far as comparing or claiming who is the GOAT, I agree with the Top 10 someone listed earlier. They're all great and worthy of it.
It's really hard to compare players from different era's.
My take would be how would they fare going one on one against each other. Someone mentioned Jordan would not be able to handle Wilt, I disagree. There's no way Wilt would be able to defend Jordan, maybe block a couple of shots, but Jordan's quickness and athleticism would prevail, including defending Wilt.

Magic and Bird, 2 of the best for sure, but can you see them beating Jordan, Kobe or Lebron one on one ?
The athleticism, overall game and skills of Jordan, Kobe and LeBron are unparalleled in my book. The 3 best in the game, ever.

The GOAT is Jordan IMO. The only negative on him is that it took him some time to learn how to play as a team player.

[hefdaddy42]

The GOAT is Jordan IMO. The only negative on him is that it took him some time to learn how to play as a team player.

Not really.  It just took the Bulls some time to assemble a team around him. 

[Cool Chris]

My take would be how would they fare going one on one against each other. Someone mentioned Jordan would not be able to handle Wilt, I disagree. There's no way Wilt would be able to defend Jordan, maybe block a couple of shots, but Jordan's quickness and athleticism would prevail, including defending Wilt.

Magic and Bird, 2 of the best for sure, but can you see them beating Jordan, Kobe or Lebron one on one ?
The athleticism, overall game and skills of Jordan, Kobe and LeBron are unparalleled in my book. The 3 best in the game, ever.

Basketball isn't a one-on-one sport though, I don't think it is fair to use a hypothetical one-on-one match-up as a way to rank players. Wilt can't defend Jordan outside, and vice versa down low. But that isn't a reflection of their skills.

[KevShmev]

I think longevity probably hurts Isiah Thomas' all-time ranking, plus he was never really in the top tier of players, but just outside of it (he was never on the level of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Dr J).  Not to mention that the way the Pistons played during their best years was very much a team style that was all about winning and no one player putting up crazy numbers, so he didn't have the added benefit of a few crazy statistical seasons that ran parallel to his championships.  The fact that he is kind of a smarmy shithead doesn't help either.

[robbob]

The GOAT is Jordan IMO. The only negative on him is that it took him some time to learn how to play as a team player.

Not really.  It just took the Bulls some time to assemble a team around him.

Agreed, he did not have many good options on those early Bulls teams.

My take would be how would they fare going one on one against each other. Someone mentioned Jordan would not be able to handle Wilt, I disagree. There's no way Wilt would be able to defend Jordan, maybe block a couple of shots, but Jordan's quickness and athleticism would prevail, including defending Wilt.

Magic and Bird, 2 of the best for sure, but can you see them beating Jordan, Kobe or Lebron one on one ?
The athleticism, overall game and skills of Jordan, Kobe and LeBron are unparalleled in my book. The 3 best in the game, ever.

Basketball isn't a one-on-one sport though, I don't think it is fair to use a hypothetical one-on-one match-up as a way to rank players. Wilt can't defend Jordan outside, and vice versa down low. But that isn't a reflection of their skills.

True, it's not a one-on-one game. And, hypothetical  one-on-one match ups are hard to quantify.
But, from the words of Magic himself during that era - "There's Michael... then there's the rest of us."

I look at it as who has the best overall game. Jordan, Kobe and Lebron had/have complete games. Total offense, can score inside, outside, great at distributing the ball to teammates, ball handling skills, defense, rebounding... everything.

A lot of other players have all of the skills too, but not at the same level as the 3 mentioned IMO.

[KevShmev]

The GOAT is Jordan IMO. The only negative on him is that it took him some time to learn how to play as a team player.

Not really.  It just took the Bulls some time to assemble a team around him.

Agreed, he did not have many good options on those early Bulls teams.

While that is true, once he got good teammates, it took Phil Jackson hammering home the point constantly to Jordan to trust them.  I know it's easy to say MJ could have won with any coach, but it's not a coincidence that both Jordan's Bulls and the Shaq/Kobe Lakers went from being contenders that couldn't get over the hump to juggernauts that couldn't be stopped shortly after Jackson arrived in both places.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

That was my thought as well, though I don't know if I'd consider Magic's longevity "weak." 12 straight quality years, missing only part of one season due to injury.

Yea, not bad at all really. He probably would have played another four or five if not for his medical condition too.

Longevity as a parameter is a bit unfair towards guys playing in Chuck Taylors and in favour of those getting cryo-baths 

100%. Playing for ten years back in the day is probably as impressive as 13 or 14 years now.

I think longevity probably hurts Isiah Thomas' all-time ranking, plus he was never really in the top tier of players, but just outside of it (he was never on the level of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Dr J).  Not to mention that the way the Pistons played during their best years was very much a team style that was all about winning and no one player putting up crazy numbers, so he didn't have the added benefit of a few crazy statistical seasons that ran parallel to his championships.  The fact that he is kind of a smarmy shithead doesn't help either.

It's actually kind of impressive how much people hate that guy.

[contest_sanity]

The modern advances enabling greater longevity make Kareem stand out even moreso because he didn't have such benefit yet still an unbelievably long and consistently productive career. I guess in fairness, though, it certainly didn't hurt to have Magic on his squad for nearly the last decade of it, either.

[Indiscipline]

The modern advances enabling greater longevity make Kareem stand out even moreso because he didn't have such benefit yet still an unbelievably long and consistently productive career. I guess in fairness, though, it certainly didn't hurt to have Magic on his squad for nearly the last decade of it, either.

A phenomenon, truly. I believe winning Finals MVPs 15 seasons apart is a feat we won't be able to see again (we were close with Timmy). 

[KevShmev]

I think longevity probably hurts Isiah Thomas' all-time ranking, plus he was never really in the top tier of players, but just outside of it (he was never on the level of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Dr J).  Not to mention that the way the Pistons played during their best years was very much a team style that was all about winning and no one player putting up crazy numbers, so he didn't have the added benefit of a few crazy statistical seasons that ran parallel to his championships.  The fact that he is kind of a smarmy shithead doesn't help either.

It's actually kind of impressive how much people hate that guy.

In all fairness, Thomas has earned most of that hate.  He is the guy who is always smiling and saying something and you just know he is full of shit. 

The modern advances enabling greater longevity make Kareem stand out even moreso because he didn't have such benefit yet still an unbelievably long and consistently productive career. I guess in fairness, though, it certainly didn't hurt to have Magic on his squad for nearly the last decade of it, either.

I have long said that Kareem gets shortchanged in GOAT conversations.  I think he gets penalized because he has always been kind of an aloof guy; he was hard for a lot of people to like.  If he had had the charisma of Magic or the marketing of MJ, he'd be talked about in much greater terms by many.

[Cool Chris]

I have long said that Kareem gets shortchanged in GOAT conversations.  I think he gets penalized because he has always been kind of an aloof guy; he was hard for a lot of people to like. 

He was always very cerebral, and a little surly (according to some, anyway). I've read how that essentially cost him any chance at an NBA coaching job over the years.

[hefdaddy42]

Kareem should definitely be in the conversation. 

The interesting thing about him (to me, anyway) is that he was even better in college than as a pro.  I mean, they changed the rules of the game because of him.

[Cool Chris]

The interesting thing about him (to me, anyway) is that he was even better in college than as a pro.

It isn't just you, I posted earlier I've read articles about that very thing. To think that as a freshman, he couldn't play varsity due to NCAA rules. So he played on the Freshman team, which went on to beat the UCLA varsity team in an intersquad game, considered one of the best in the nation*.

I mean, they changed the rules of the game because of him.

Indeed, and those changes made him a better player.

*I can't find a reference for that but I am positive I read about it at some point.

[jammindude]

And yet it's interesting that there were guys who had Kareem's number.  And it wasn't the guys you would think

He *NEVER* gets mentioned in conversation these days, because he was a nobody.  But the Sonics had a backup center named Dennis Awtrey.   And in the Sonics championship season of 78-79, he only had one job.   Stop Kareem Abdul Jabbar.    And that was the only thing he did.   At one point in the playoff series, Kareem got so frustrated that he could not do anything when Awtrey was on him, that he just stopped and threw the ball at him.    I was too young to understand exactly what he was doing, but somehow Dennis had done his homework and figured out exactly what his pattern was and knew how to get in his head and turn him into less of a factor.

But as to Kareem's overall career there can be no doubt.  He was a phenomenal player. 

[Indiscipline]

And yet it's interesting that there were guys who had Kareem's number.  And it wasn't the guys you would think

He *NEVER* gets mentioned in conversation these days, because he was a nobody.  But the Sonics had a backup center named Dennis Awtrey.   And in the Sonics championship season of 78-79, he only had one job.   Stop Kareem Abdul Jabbar.    And that was the only thing he did.   At one point in the playoff series, Kareem got so frustrated that he could not do anything when Awtrey was on him, that he just stopped and threw the ball at him.    I was too young to understand exactly what he was doing, but somehow Dennis had done his homework and figured out exactly what his pattern was and knew how to get in his head and turn him into less of a factor.

But as to Kareem's overall career there can be no doubt.  He was a phenomenal player. 

He broke a hand punching .... Kent Benson (otherwise only memorable for the MIL-DET trade that later brought Lanier to the Bucks) in the noggin.   

A guy he hated playing was Cowens who, although at a considerable size disadvantage, used to draw him far from the hoop and punish him from mid range.

[jammindude]

I just did a little bit more research and discovered something about Dennis Awtrey I didn't know.   He played for the Bulls in about 74, and I guess at that time he sucker punched Kareem on national TV.    So I didn't even know until this very day that when the Sonics faced the Lakers on their championship run, Kareem and Dennis already had a history.

[TAC]

 
A guy he hated playing was Cowens who, although at a considerable size disadvantage, used to draw him far from the hoop and punish him from mid range.

I once saw Dave Cowens at the beach, somewhere around '93 near Cape Cod. 

[Indiscipline]

Was he cabbing? 

[TAC]

Was he cabbing?

I don't know what cabbing is.

He was walking.

[Indiscipline]

 

I heard he once spent half a season retired from hoops in order to drive a cab around Beantown

[Lonk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=he-VxfjhZt0

Interested to see where this goes

[Lonk]

Episode 3 of Season 7 Game of Zones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CStaxpRvKds

A lot of good one line jokes and references.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

What did people think about The Last Dance? I thought it was really enjoyable as a piece of entertainment, but perhaps a bit dubious as a historical documentary.

[gmillerdrake]

What did people think about The Last Dance? I thought it was really enjoyable as a piece of entertainment, but perhaps a bit dubious as a historical documentary.

I dug it. And thought it left no question that MJ is on a different tier than Kobe and Lebron. You can 'argue' it all you want for the fun of it.....but it's not even close.

[Indiscipline]

Love it. I only wish it came out while Jerry Krause was still able to put his 2 cents in. That would have made an interesting show even more interesting.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

What did people think about The Last Dance? I thought it was really enjoyable as a piece of entertainment, but perhaps a bit dubious as a historical documentary.

I dug it. And thought it left no question that MJ is on a different tier than Kobe and Lebron. You can 'argue' it all you want for the fun of it.....but it's not even close.

In my opinion, it depends what is meant by "different tier". I tend to agree that they cannot match him in terms of cultural influence or what is generally considered to comprise a player's "legacy", but in some other ways, LeBron in particular has arguments.

I think it's also worth mentioning that not only did Jordan have the final sign-off on the documentary, but his production company was involved in its creation as well. If Jordan came off as clearly a tier above everyone else, that was probably his intention. I'm hesitant to let a ten-part Jordan documentary sway my opinion when there is no ten-part Russell documentary, no ten-part Kareem documentary, etc. to compare it to.

[KevShmev]

I didn't watch a single second of The Last Dance, but I have heard a lot of chatter about it, and find it funny, but not surprising, that many others in the story, aside from Jordan, supposedly didn't come off well at times in it.  Jordan obviously made damn sure that he came off great (or as well as an a-hole who loved to bully anyone and everyone can come off), while making others look not so great.  I will say this: he obviously cares a lot about his legacy as the supposed GOAT.

[TAC]

I didn't watch a single second of The Last Dance, but I have heard a lot of chatter about it, and find it funny, but not surprising, that many others in the story, aside from Jordan, supposedly didn't come off well at times in it.  Jordan obviously made damn sure that he came off great (or as well as an a-hole who loved to bully anyone and everyone can come off), while making others look not so great.  I will say this: he obviously cares a lot about his legacy as the supposed GOAT.

Yeah, I didn't watch any of it either. It was a Jordan production anyway right? or something like that.