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Author Topic: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....  (Read 3275 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2019, 11:35:24 AM »
I dunno.  I just find that reviews or criticisms of a product by someone who has never owned or tried the product to be of VERY limited value.  I'm just not sure you learn much about the product in question from someone who won't buy it based on some principle or the other. 
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Offline Implode

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2019, 11:48:17 AM »
Right. And most of the criticism comes from new articles and reviews posted online. Not to say those are completely worthless, after all, that's all we have to go with without buying one for ourselves. But at the same time, it is something where people assume the worst, and the news loves to portray new technology in a bad light.

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2019, 12:15:12 PM »
That totally makes sense. And this has me wondering if it's just a difference in what we find value in, or if I'm legitimately doing something dumb by considering buying one. That's my biggest concern.

Also sorry for trying to take over this thread. lol Thought it had some good info in it already.

Personally? I think it's value.   My step-son just bought a car - 1988 if memory serves - with about 400,000 miles on it for $150, and he bought it in part because he did much of the service on it (while working for the dealership) and knew that the owner did EVERY service through the dealer since she bought it from the dealer, and actually saved most of the documentation.   So for her - and, indirectly with him - it was worth it to bring the car into the dealer on a regular basis for all her service needs.

But I grew up with a dad that (before he got sick) did all his own work on his cars.  To me it was a badge of honor that you do your own oil changes and brakes.  We're at the point now that I've taxed my knowledge on some things (on my 2006, I can do the front brakes, not the rear, go figure) and so I want someone who is up on new technology.   Having said that, I also know that I personally get no value, either in comfort or risk management, from paying the premium to the dealer.  In fact, I often feel the opposite, but I'm honoring my feelings, not any grand truth.  Some of the techs at dealerships are literally walking experts on the vehicles they service. 

Offline Nick

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2019, 01:47:18 PM »
1. Elon is a dick. Don't support him.
2. Cars are unreliable and rushed to completion so probably won't last long.
3. Insurance expensive
4. There were a bunch of bugs in an update last fall that kept some people from using their cars until they were fixed

I will respond more to this on FB, but want to hit the big points here:

1. I mean, I get why Elon has a reputation, some deserved, some not. If you don't like certain things about him and are going to not buy the associated brand that's up to you. I personally don't like the Chick-Fil-A loose association with charities I don't like but I still happily eat their chicken. In basically any organization, especially one of size your money will indirectly go to people and things you don't like.
2. The early production Model 3s had some issues, but otherwise this is mostly untrue. The biggest problem Tesla has, by far, is service, especially near end of quarter, but all their available products are now very solid.
3. This is always going to vary by state and company, but I shopped around a bit, stayed with the company I already had (Traveler's), and went from a 2017 car worth ~35k when bought to a 50k Model 3 and pay an extra ~$100/year. So hardly expensive to insure in my case.
4. Unfortunately in a software laden car bugs can happen, and one did screw me over pretty hard once, but the problem with Tesla reporting is that every rare case tends to get reported and overblown. This is why you hear about Tesla fires all the time if you follow news closely even though they are FAR less likely to have fires than their gas counterparts. I do believe last fall a few people did have to have cars towed to service centers, but it wasn't widespread. By far the biggest issue for me that they STILL haven't fixed is that sometimes when you go into reverse the screen goes black for 5 or more seconds before displaying the backup camera.
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Offline Implode

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2019, 01:56:37 PM »
Stadler, you're right. Different people find value in different things. I don't like driving. Most of the time it feels boring and like a waste of time. I see owning a Tesla and having access to its tech as a way to make the driving experience a lot more fun. That's a huge value to me, and probably a lot more than the average person considering I see zero point in upgrading my car to some low end luxury vehicle otherwise.

And thanks, Nick! The only huge concern with out of that list is 4. If I decide to go Tesla, I just have to be aware that something like that might happen. That's how I usually live, putting a bit more trust into technology, knowing that it might just glitch out sometimes.

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2019, 07:40:31 PM »
I don't think I would ever buy an Electric Car unless the prices became much more equivalent to their gas powered counterparts, they had range upwards of 400 miles, and charging took little more time than filling up a gas powered car (if it took 10-15 minutes to fully charge I would be on board). Since I don't see all of this happening in my lifetime, I doubt I will ever buy one.

As an aside, I believe Electric Cars are more of a stopgap until someone finally perfects hydrogen powered cars (or rather the efficient production and storage of hydrogen fuel). Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai all have ones that work, but haven't really taken off and I'm not really sure why. I mean I know why, it has to do with the way hydrogen fuel is being made, which I believe requires natural gas (which isn't renewable) or some kind of thermochemical process (which is extremely expensive). Once they figure that out, hydrogen may be the only cars we drive.
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Offline Nick

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2019, 07:50:01 PM »
I don't think I would ever buy an Electric Car unless the prices became much more equivalent to their gas powered counterparts, they had range upwards of 400 miles, and charging took little more time than filling up a gas powered car (if it took 10-15 minutes to fully charge I would be on board). Since I don't see all of this happening in my lifetime, I doubt I will ever buy one.

So much of this has already happened, and it really shows the misconceptions people have about electric cars.

If you do 15,000 miles or more a year the 5-year cost to own on a SR+ Model 3 is likely going to beat a comparable Honda Accord, Ford Fusion, or Toyota Corolla. Yeah, we need a bigger market or available cars that do this, but one big example is already on the streets. Just comparing sticker prices is worthless when comparing gas and electric vehicles.

Charging speed you again have to go with Tesla, but people have to realize if you can charge at work or home then top charging speed won't matter for 95% of your driving. You don't stop somewhere special to charge in most cases, and again, Tesla has shown that when you have to the network can be put in place. The current network is mostly V2, and their newer faster V3 is rolling out, but even as it is now, the last time I stopped here was my experience: Plugged in car, walked to deli in shopping center, was immediately waited on, ordered food, ate food, returned to car in under a half hour. In that time the car had added 160 miles of range, which was over double what I actually needed to get home. Again, you just can't compare gas to electric using only gas rules.
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Online Stadler

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2019, 08:28:45 AM »
Honest question:  Does the battery (do the batteries) have memory?  Is there long term risk to continual partial charging?   

Look, I'm not arguing against electric; I think there are absolutely applications that make sense now (not every driver is like me, who will hop in the car and drive 250 miles - or more - without blinking an eye) and I do not disagree even a little bit with the degree of misinformation out there, but I'm not sure what you mean by "you just can't compare gas to electric using only gas rules."   Unless I'm misunderstanding you, isn't that the base problem, that most people ARE going to compare using only gas rules?  That's a human condition, not anything more nefarious; look at the different (but certainly related) issue of alternate energy.   The amount of misinformation with respect to solar, wind and nuclear vis-a-vis electricity generated from fossil fuels is mind-boggling.   To me it's not much different.  Why this country doesn't get at least 50% of it's energy now from nuclear makes me scratch my head till it bleeds.

Offline Implode

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2019, 09:12:27 AM »
It's actually the opposite. There's a risk to continual full charging. That tends to degrade the batteries faster, so they recommend a vast majority of the time you don't charge to 100%. Apparently that's the reason cell phone batteries die quickly too. Since you're charging them to 100% daily.

Offline Lonk

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2019, 10:10:19 AM »
It's actually the opposite. There's a risk to continual full charging. That tends to degrade the batteries faster, so they recommend a vast majority of the time you don't charge to 100%. Apparently that's the reason cell phone batteries die quickly too. Since you're charging them to 100% daily.

Oh the days when a cellphone battery used to last 3 days instead of 8 hours.

Based on what I read online, the batteries have gotten much better and after a couple of years of use, the battery might lose less than 5% of its power at most. So instead of 320 miles per charge, you would do 304 miles.
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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2019, 10:16:02 AM »
It's actually the opposite. There's a risk to continual full charging. That tends to degrade the batteries faster, so they recommend a vast majority of the time you don't charge to 100%. Apparently that's the reason cell phone batteries die quickly too. Since you're charging them to 100% daily.

Oh the days when a cellphone battery used to last 3 days instead of 8 hours.

Based on what I read online, the batteries have gotten much better and after a couple of years of use, the battery might lose less than 5% of its power at most. So instead of 320 miles per charge, you would do 304 miles.

McSorley's (my favorite bar) is 317 miles away from me.  Electric car: OUT.   :)

(I'm joking of course. McSorley's is 132 miles from my house. ;) )

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2019, 11:03:47 AM »
It's actually the opposite. There's a risk to continual full charging. That tends to degrade the batteries faster, so they recommend a vast majority of the time you don't charge to 100%. Apparently that's the reason cell phone batteries die quickly too. Since you're charging them to 100% daily.

There's a chance I'm incorrect here, but I've been charging batteries and putting them under tremendous loads for almost 20 years now. The golden rule, and this goes for nickel-cadmium, nickel metal hydride, and lithium-ion polymer batteries, has always been to never over-discharge your cells. You can peak charge them as often as you want (and should if being used often), but as soon as you start letting the juice get too low, you begin to run a serious risk of damage and failure. Doing so prevents a process from sulfation from occurring and greatly extends the life of the battery.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 01:10:01 PM by Chino »

Offline Nick

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2019, 04:21:00 PM »
It's actually the opposite. There's a risk to continual full charging. That tends to degrade the batteries faster, so they recommend a vast majority of the time you don't charge to 100%. Apparently that's the reason cell phone batteries die quickly too. Since you're charging them to 100% daily.

There's a chance I'm incorrect here, but I've been charging batteries and putting them under tremendous loads for almost 20 years now. The golden rule, and this goes for nickel-cadmium, nickel metal hydride, and lithium-ion polymer batteries, has always been to never over-discharge your cells. You can peak charge them as often as you want (and should if being used often), but as soon as you start letting the juice get too low, you begin to run a serious risk of damage and failure. Doing so prevents a process from sulfation from occurring and greatly extends the life of the battery.

I can only go by what Tesla/Elon Musk have said when it comes to car batteries, but you're only supposed to charge to 90% daily at most. On Tesla cars the charging screen even has a section for daily charging (50-90%), and trip charging (90-100%), to underscore the point that you shouldn't be charging to 100% every day.
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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2019, 04:44:26 AM »
It's actually the opposite. There's a risk to continual full charging. That tends to degrade the batteries faster, so they recommend a vast majority of the time you don't charge to 100%. Apparently that's the reason cell phone batteries die quickly too. Since you're charging them to 100% daily.

Oh the days when a cellphone battery used to last 3 days instead of 8 hours.

To be fair, those were the days without powerful and bright displays, and apps who require more processing power than the computers that sent a man to the moon.

It's easier to last 3 days when the most energy consuming thing you do is playing an 8-bit version of Worms or the equivalent.
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Offline Implode

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2019, 06:57:25 AM »
Ordered the wall connector and going to buy the car today. Good luck to me!

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2019, 07:23:14 AM »
It's actually the opposite. There's a risk to continual full charging. That tends to degrade the batteries faster, so they recommend a vast majority of the time you don't charge to 100%. Apparently that's the reason cell phone batteries die quickly too. Since you're charging them to 100% daily.

Oh the days when a cellphone battery used to last 3 days instead of 8 hours.

To be fair, those were the days without powerful and bright displays, and apps who require more processing power than the computers that sent a man to the moon.

It's easier to last 3 days when the most energy consuming thing you do is playing an 8-bit version of Worms or the equivalent.

Yeah, those essential Snapgram filters burn some electrons.  ;)  :) :)

Offline Nick

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2019, 11:26:02 AM »
This thread is in need of some pictures and thoughts from someone. :D
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Offline Implode

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2019, 09:12:48 AM »
I'm trying to be a low-key Tesla owner. Thanks, Nick.  :lol

Yeah, so I decided to buy the car, and took delivery on Friday. So far it's been a wonderful experience to drive. Luckily my car arrived with no issues, and I haven't had any yet (knock on wood). It was raining on the day I got it, so sadly no immaculately clean car to start off. The only really interesting thing is that I asked multiple people multiple times if my car would have the Pedestrian Warning System installed. For those that don't know, electric vehicles are so quiet that the US made a law that EVs made after a certain date have to have a speaker to make noise when the car is moving forward and backward at low speed. While I do think that will improve safety, it is kind of lame. An almost silent car is one of the coolest things about owning an EV imo. But when I got my car, turns out it didn't have it installed. So that's a bonus!

I'm not trying to flaunt the car or anything. I know it's a bit dumb for me to be concerned with stuff like this, but like I said earlier, there's so much baggage with Tesla and most people my age think the car is cringey to have, it's a slight status symbol, etc. Not looking forward to facing the multiple people that told me not to get it.

But that aside, the car has been so much fun to drive. It's made my commute more bearable. Haven't done any long trips yet, but I did go to a super charger to try that out. Was really easy. Really looking forward to not buying gas again or getting an oil change any time soon.

Here are a couple pics as requested.




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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2019, 01:50:20 AM »
Awesome! :) :tup
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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2019, 04:42:11 AM »
Cool and the gang!
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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2019, 09:04:21 AM »
That's pretty cool, the dash seems so empty though with everything on the screen.  Not an complaint, just something that sticks out to me and different.

I'd be interested in following up on you new tesla owners in 6-8 years.  Not that I have doubts, but just out of curiosity of how the new sales are still holding up.  I use that time frame as that's my typical life cycle of going through a car and would probably align with me getting my next vehicle which maybe by then I'll go a Tesla or similar route.

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Re: If you could afford an electric car that suited your standards....
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2019, 02:17:44 PM »
I'm trying to be a low-key Tesla owner. Thanks, Nick.  :lol

Haven't done any long trips yet, but I did go to a super charger to try that out. Was really easy.

Glad I was here to save the day. :D

I have to say, the simplicity of the supercharging was so much I almost couldn't comprehend it when I first went. I kinda looked the charger up and down looking for someplace to enter my card info or some identifying information about my car. But of course all you do is plug in and you're done.
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