Katt's Top 50 Albums v. I bless the rains down in Africa [#1]

[The Walrus]

GnR has shaped and molded my musical life arguably more than any other band in the world. UYI is a masterpiece. Maybe YOU need to listen to more albums if this is the "biggest disappointment of your life" 'cause it's a damn good album.  Debuted at #2 on the Billboard charts, 18 million copies worldwide, 5.5 million in the USA alone, 7x platinum, and Grammy nominated. Speaks for itself. Come at me bro!

[Nekov]

So, does that mean they are the reason you like power metal so much? If that's the case then you would have been better without them 

[The Walrus]

Power metal rules. (Nekov, you share some of the blame, since you're singlehandedly responsible for me liking Bloodbound!)

Actually you can blame Stratovarius, Blind Guardian, Rhapsody, Sonata Arctica, and Dragonforce, and to some extent, Dream Theater...

[Nekov]

 

Just kidding. I used to listen to a lot of power metal back in the day. I still listen to some Blind Guardian and Angra here and there

[The Walrus]

Just kidding. I used to listen to a lot of power metal back in the day. I still listen to some Blind Guardian and Angra here and there

See, Lethean? Angra IS power metal 

[Stadler]

Seriously?  Dude, you need to listen to more albums if this is in your top 40.  UYI I & II were the biggest fucking disappointments of my life.  It's got barely one album of good/decent material, and handful of gems, and a ton of outright tripe.

I did see Skid Row/GnR about 2-3 weeks before this album dropped, and the one new GnR song that I vividly remember from that show was .... November Rain.  That is my 2nd fave GnR tune, so I'll give it that.

But overall, massive massive disappointment given the circumstances.

See, I COMPLETELY understand this and where it's coming from... and COMPLETELY disagree.   

I remember getting a bootleg tape around the time of Appetite, and it had a couple demos on it.  Two were this tune that I presumed was called Cold November Rain or something like that.  One was Axl and a piano, one was Axl and guitar.   It. Was. AMAZING.  I listened to those until the tape broke, and I was constantly amazed that this didn't get to Appetite.  And when I heard the album version, I knew exactly why.  Not saying one is 'better' than another, but Axl was clearly going for something very different on UYI.   At the time, I was really into Queen - Innuendo, the EXCELLENT Innuendo, came out in February of '91 - and to hear UYI, in the fall of '91, I totally got it.   

UYI was NOT Appetite part II, or even Son Of Appetite.  It was a whole 'nother ball of wax, and I totally got it (and totally agree with this insertion, though II better be 37).   

I initially hated the Axl vanity pieces - Back Off Bitch, Get In The Ring - but even those are essential to the over all work.   I've come to the conclusion that a single album wouldn't work. It's a work in it's totality.  I sometimes will playlist the two (I prefer the more epic stuff; November Rain, The Garden, Coma and on II, Estranged, Civil War, Locomotive) but if you're evaluating the work, I think part of it's sprawl is part of it's statement. There is nothing concise or to the bone abuot the band, the music or the albums.

It was a hell of a tour, too.  (Brian May was the opener for the leg I saw). 

[jingle.boy]

Come at me bro!

Don't mind if I do.  Look, I get your perspective, and appreciate how influential this is given how music shapes our life in our earlier years.  Like I said, take a look at some of the albums in my original Top 50 list.  But citing the sales figures is a comical defense.  For starters, Appetite is in the 30M range, so these albums severely underperformed.  They were only as successful (financially) as they were because of the anticipation what was next from the band that re-shaped the musical landscape of accessible heavy metal coming from the west coast.  At the time, some were thinking they might be releasing what could be the highest grossing rock albums of all-time.  For those of us over 40, the anticipation was nothing like anything I had ever seen, or have seen since in music.  I mean back then, 4 years between albums was an eternity (let's disregard Lies... a 4 cover / 4 acoustic EP album was done more by the label just to try and hold the fans over until a real album came out, actually fuelling the anticipation that much more) ... and to take that long to follow on the heels of a revolutionary album like Appetite!?!?!  Fans were craving ... DYING ... for these albums.

Then we listened to them.

When a band delivers a 14 song, zero dud / no weak link album (3 of which are absolutely iconic, and the other 9 are gems) ... then takes for years to follow up with 30 songs comprised of 2 covers (great covers, btw); 5 maybe 6 gems, and the remaining 22 range from tripe to mediocre?  Honestly, because of those albums and that tour, the band irreparably damaged themselves, and became the biggest flameout in metal ever.

It may be a masterpiece *for you* given how/when it came in to your life, but it is anything but a masterpiece in and of itself.

[The Walrus]

I mean I was being a little facetious, not trying to use the sales numbers as an open-and-shut case for why it's a masterpiece. It's all subjective. Yes, to me, I think it's a masterpiece. That's why it's in my list. I do believe it's a masterpiece in and of itself, I could've written pages and pages on everything I think is awesome about it but I don't think anyone read the writeup for it anyway I also believe Chinese Democracy is a masterpiece in and of itself. Tastes... *shrug* I just totally, vehemently disagree with your portrayal of the UYI albums. The only duds I can agree with would be the alternate version of Don't Cry, and My World, the song we don't speak of. Everything else on those albums is gold, Jerry... er, Chad.  IMO.

And I know it's all in good fun here, so I hope you don't mind if I get critical, but... it sounds like you're using the fact that it didn't meet the astronomical expectations of listeners as a reason for why it's bad, which isn't a fault of the music itself. I get that they were arguably the biggest thing ever back then but I don't think that's fair to slag off the album because it didn't meet expectations. It's ambitious, it's creative, it's adventurous, I would imagine fans of prog rock would admire that more than the raw hard rock of the first album, so the response is kind of disappointing to me. Just because it didn't sell 30 million doesn't mean it still wasn't a major success.

The band didn't burn out just because of those albums and the tour. It's because of who they were as people and musicians and how they were essentially ticking time bombs all jam packed into a bottle together and eventually it all came apart. Add the fame and drugs to it and it's a miracle they even put out the first album.

Also... 14 songs? Appetite has 12.

[jingle.boy]

MJ... all fair points above.  And to that end, I'll actually go and spin them - both - this weekend just to listen to the album for the sake of it.  And to be clear, I didn't mean to say it's bad because it didn't meet expectations, I'm saying the opposite - it didn't meet expectations because it's bad.  I wanted to love it, so damned much.  But it just wasn't good.  Now, I'll come back over the weekend and see if it's aged any better, because I honestly can't remember the last time I spun it front to back - easily 20 years at least.

And you're right on the final part.  The aftermath of this album and tour were simply symptomatic of the reasons the band flamed out.

[The Walrus]

I'll actually go and spin them - both - this weekend just to listen to the album for the sake of it.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! That's what I like to hear. Even if you hate them, give them a fair and open minded listen, without comparing them to Appetite.

I think #37 is going to be the most controversial album on this entire list.

[TAC]

The Use Your Illusion albums are great!

I actually prefer II to I as my 14 song Illusion United Playlist features 8 II songs and 6 I songs.


I assume we'll talk about Appetite when the time comes, but what makes the Illusion albums special is that they are NOT Appetite Part 2.
Not every song across both albums is great, but there is so many amazing tracks across the two.

Matt Sorum is a fucking beast on these albums. Good call K-Lox giving him a shout out. I love the direction GnR took with this album. They went "next level" in my opinion. Not saying that means it's better than Appetite, but I just feel the playing and writing really showed great maturity, Get In The Ring's lyrics notwithstanding.

With respect to Part I, since it's the one listed, the 6 tracks that make my Illusion United playlist are:

Right Next Door To Hell
Double Talkin' Jive
The Garden
Don't Damn Me
Dead Horse
Coma


I just feel that II has the more epic pieces.

Alice Cooper is awesome on The Garden. Slash's solos are Godly on these albums.

Saw GnR 4 times on the Illusion tour.

It was a hell of a tour, too.  (Brian May was the opener for the leg I saw). 

That was the last leg. Saw that show at the old Boston Garden (March 16, 1993).

Brian May's band featured not only Neil Murray on bass, but COZY FUCKING POWELL on drums. In Boston, Gary Cherrone came out and they closed with Tie Your Mother Down.

[The Walrus]

Spoiler alert: UYI2 is definitely on this list. And I was just listening to it last night, and while I'll talk about it at length when its time comes, I give a big pass to Get In The Ring. Shotgun Blues has the cringier lyrics ("you can suck my ass"), I think, but the charm of Get In The Ring is how absolutely over the top, bonkers, tough guy wrestling intro music it is. "You wanna antagonize me? Antagonize me, motherfucker! Get in the ring, motherfucker!'" And then, normally, I'd find that moment where he laughs to be beyond corny, but Axl sounds like a demon there and somehow manages to pull it off. That song is utterly ridiculous in every way and I like it because it goes full bore with it.

II absolutely has the more epic pieces, though. Except Coma. That's all-time great GnR.

[TAC]

Oh I just said the lyrics lacked maturity. I didn't say I didn't like them!

Get In The Ring kicks total fucking ass.

[Dave_Manchester]

Come at me bro!

The cavalry's arrived...

Both the Use Your Illusions are fantastic albums (slightly prefer part 2 over part 1, but in truth I view it all as one album). I was about 10 or 11 when they were released and I was obsessed with them thoughout the 90s (i.e my youth). There aren't many albums that cover such a wide variety of styles and moods (Estranged runs the entire gamut on its own, and that's just one song).

By the way Katt, the last time I was at the Vatican (how cool does that sound?) I was able to view the Raphael Rooms (they used to be the Pope's personal library and study back when the Medicis and Borgias were running the show) when there was nobody there and snagged a couple of pictures with the image used on these albums. See if you can spot it (the whole fresco is Raphael's School of Athens from 1511, and Gunners used a detail from it for the album cover). I've never tried to upload a photo here before so let's see if this works:   

[TAC]

That's cool. I see it.


Planning on going there next summer.

[The Walrus]

Dave, that's AWESOME! I found it right away. Way too cool.

I regularly jam Estranged (in its entirety, not just the piano break; pairing the vocal melody with the piano/bass/guitar lines is tricky but worthwhile) on piano. It's one of the most fun things ever and that piano break is just the tops. Beeeeeautiful music.

[jingle.boy]

The fact you have a consolidated playlist proves my point. Both albums are severely bloated. Do you have a consolidated playlist for VH I and II?  Zeppelin I and II?  When it comes to independent albums released simultaneously, the only two I can think of off the top of my head are The Universal Migrator albums, and Wicked Symphony/Angel of Babylon.  Anyone make a consolidated "album" from those?

Hell, there's even an official release in'98 that consolidates them - so the band/label acknowledges they are filled with filler.

[The Walrus]

The fact you have a consolidated playlist proves my point. Both albums are severely bloated. Do you have a consolidated playlist for VH I and II?  Zeppelin I and II?  When it comes to independent albums released simultaneously, the only two I can think of off the top of my head are The Universal Migrator albums, and Wicked Symphony/Angel of Babylon.  Anyone make a consolidated "album" from those?

Hell, there's even an official release in'98 that consolidates them - so the band/label acknowledges they are filled with filler.

Walmart and K-mart (and maybe others, I can't remember) didn't carry the initial unedited version of the album, if I recall correctly. I never bought the compilation so I assume it's edited in order for Walmart to sell it now. The speech from Knockin' On Heaven's Door was also removed, and I'm almost 100% confident it was released as a compilation album in order to get some sales going, which was also the reason the Greatest Hits album was released, because there was no activity in the band during that time, and even Axl didn't approve of the tracklist on the GH... Nothing at all about UYI having filler.

I could make a consolidated album from TWS/Angel easily but Tobi like Axl was confident in his vision for a double release.

[jingle.boy]

[Dave_Manchester]

Hell, there's even an official release in'98 that consolidates them - so the band/label acknowledges they are filled with filler.

That was just a cash grab by the label released 7 years after the albums were first put out, because they thought (correctly) that the band was over and they wanted to bleed a few more cents out of their cash cow. Quite honestly my own 'best 12' songs from those 2 albums would look nothing like the hits package Geffen (the label) lazily threw together.

[TAC]

The fact you have a consolidated playlist proves my point. Both albums are severely bloated. Do you have a consolidated playlist for VH I and II?  Zeppelin I and II?  When it comes to independent albums released simultaneously, the only two I can think of off the top of my head are The Universal Migrator albums, and Wicked Symphony/Angel of Babylon.  Anyone make a consolidated "album" from those?

Hell, there's even an official release in'98 that consolidates them - so the band/label acknowledges they are filled with filler.

Avantasia is a playlist band for me, except for TMOT.

I like ONE song on LZ I so yes, consolidation please.


So what. The albums have filler. But they have some AMAZING music on them. I mean, of all of the albums on this list (sorry K-Lox0 this is the album you have a problem with?

[The Walrus]

No offense taken, I'm 150% aware of how unpopular my takes are, and how unpopular power metal in particular is. This is my favorite albums of all time, not objective in any way. If ya'll came expecting recommendations or albums that would be suited to your tastes, I'm sorry to disappoint!

[TAC]

No offense taken, I'm 150% aware of how unpopular my takes are, and how unpopular power metal in particular is. This is my favorite albums of all time, not objective in any way. If ya'll came expecting recommendations or albums that would be suited to your tastes, I'm sorry to disappoint!

All good, K-Lox! Don't let J Boy derail this fine thread!

[425]

Katt, I listened to that Stratovarius album this morning, and I really enjoyed it! Looking forward to checking out the ones you put above it, too.

[The Walrus]

Katt, I listened to that Stratovarius album this morning, and I really enjoyed it! Looking forward to checking out the ones you put above it, too.

That's the last time I'm going to use that GIF for a while, but I couldn't resist. I'm happy you liked it, 425 - if you liked that, I think you're in for a good time with what's to come. You'll have a backlog for sure...

[wolfking]

I fucking can't stand GnR.  Carry on, next!

[pg1067]

I fucking can't stand GnR.  Carry on, next!

^^This!

[twosuitsluke]

I've never listened to a Guns n Roses album, nor do I intend to 

[The Walrus]

You're really missing out and I can guarantee there's some stuff on the Illusion albums that would surprise you, in a good way..

[pg1067]

I've never listened to a Guns n Roses album, nor do I intend to 

You're really missing out on indescribable pain and suffering.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

Actually I'm 100% with you on the whole UYI thing. Disappointing is an understatement. Granted there are some great songs spread super thin across both albums and there were a couple songs I didn't like on Appetite...

[The Walrus]

I should be the one posting that gif now.  WTF @ the amount of disrespect on UYI here but y'all like prog. Fucking... really. That's like hating on weed but loving sleeping pills.   

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

I should be the one posting that gif now.  WTF @ the amount of disrespect on UYI here but y'all like prog. Fucking... really. That's like hating on weed but loving sleeping pills.   

You know, it's all in good fun. Even though I only really like a few of the albums you've posted so far, I enjoy seeing other peoples music tastes and reading about what makes these particular albums so enjoyable to you.

[The Walrus]

I should be the one posting that gif now.  WTF @ the amount of disrespect on UYI here but y'all like prog. Fucking... really. That's like hating on weed but loving sleeping pills.   

You know, it's all in good fun. Even though I only really like a few of the albums you've posted so far, I enjoy seeing other peoples music tastes and reading about what makes these particular albums so enjoyable to you.

Oh yeah don't get me wrong, I think the back and forth and difference in opinions is super fun. I'm just legit surprised by the near universal criticism of these particular albums. It's fascinating to me. I'm glad you're having fun 

[twosuitsluke]

You're really missing out and I can guarantee there's some stuff on the Illusion albums that would surprise you, in a good way..

I mean I've obviously heard all the hits and they're fine, just not really my jam. I've never been a fan of Axl Rose and stories of his antics have not given me any inclination to give them a shot..

I'm sure there are songs I might really dig but there's just too much good stuff out there I'll love, to waste time on stuff I'll find ok.

I'm on board with all the power metal though