The "Masterpiece Method" of ranking Dream Theater albums

[pg1067]

1. TA: 24 (DO, TGOM, LN, WYTH, AOF, TD, BCYHM?, ALLB, Ravenskill, Chosen, ATO, TXA, ANB, MOB, HC, BA, TPTD, TWS, MLF, LF, HOTV, ONW, Astonishing) [#3 on my favourites ranking]

. . .

I gotta ask:  what is your definition of a "masterpiece"?  Given the numbers you mentioned, it seems like it's a pretty low bar.

TA, to me, is a masterpiece on its own, made out of masterpieces; the tracks that aren't there are tracks that have a storytelling purpose, but don't work on their own (like Road To Revolution or The Answer, or the NOMACs tracks, which I like). The Astonishing isn't an album I can listen on any mood, otherwise it would be my favourite, no doubt about that.

FWIW, my question was intended to be more broad than TA.  I didn't add up your numbers, but it seems like you consider more than half of DT's recorded songs to be masterpieces.

[TAC]

Doesn't everyone?

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Started ranking the albums according to the OP's guidelines, but quickly realized, as others in the thread have pointed out, how flawed it is considering it doesn't take regard for song lengths.

So that is exactly what I did instead because I have nothing better to do. I determined "masterpiece" in this context to mean a song I think is an 8/10 or above to garner more actual results. Simply adding the song lengths for each album up and then getting a percentage of the album's total runtime, and then ranking them, I arrived at this:

14. The Astonishing
Total runtime: 130m 40s
Masterpieces: 7m 41s (ANB….if I had to pick one)
% of Album: 461s / 7,840s = 5.88%

13. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Total runtime: 75m 27s
Masterpieces: 19m 16s (TCOT)
% of Album: 1,156s/4,527s = 25.54%

12. When Dream and Day Unite
Total runtime: 51m 30s
Masterpieces: 14m 27s (TYJ, TKH)
% of Album: 867s / 3,090s = 28.06%

11. A Dramatic Turn of Events
Total runtime: 77m 05s
Masterpieces: 23m 49s (Outcry, BAI)
% of Album: 1,429s / 4,625s = 30.90%

10. Systematic Chaos
Total runtime: 78m 44s
Masterpieces: 25m 38s (ITPOE)
% of Album: 1,538s / 4,724s = 32.56%

9. Dream Theater
Total runtime: 68m 05s
Masterpieces: 22m 17s (IT)
% of Album: 1,337s / 4,085s = 32.73%

8. Distance Over Time
Total runtime: 56m 51s
Masterpieces: 23m 07s (FITL, BW, AWE)
% of Album: 1,387s / 3,411s = 40.66%

7. Falling Into Infinity
Total runtime: 78m 19s
Masterpieces: 35m 21s (HY, HK, LITS, ToT)
% of Album: 2,121s / 4,699s = 45.14%

6. Train of Thought
Total runtime: 69m 20s
Masterpieces: 39m 53s (TDS, Vacant, SoC, ITNOG)
% of Album: 2,393s / 4,160s = 57.52%

5. Octavarium
Total runtime: 75m 47s
Masterpieces: 48m 14s (TROAE, TW, PA, 8V)
% of Album: 2,894s / 4,547s = 63.65%

4. Awake
Total runtime: 75m 01s
Masterpieces: 53m 23s (CIAW, Erotomania, Voices, The Mirror, LSOAD, Scarred, SDV)
% of Album: 3,203s / 4,501s = 71.16%

3. Scenes From a Memory
Total runtime: 77m 08s
Masterpieces: 63m 20s (O1928, SDjV, BTL, THE, Home, TDoE, TSCO, FF)
% of Album: 3,800s / 4,628s = 82.11%

2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Total runtime: 96m 21s
Masterpieces: 83m 59s (TGP, BF, Misunderstood, TGD, Disappear, Overture, AtC, WIMH, TTTSTA, SS, AtCR)
% of Album: 5,039s / 5,781s = 87.16%

1. Images & Words
Total runtime: 57m 07s
Masterpieces: 51m 34s (every track save for Surrounded)
% of Album: 3,094s / 3,427s = 90.28%

I split 6DOIT (the song) into its parts since while I love the epic as a whole, feel I would have gotten more accurate results when considering each part separately.

Comparing this to my actual rankings, I think these results are fairly accurate. What I found interesting though is how low ADTOE's placement is here than I would actually rank it. I attribute this to feeling it is a fairly consistent album, but just a bit sparse in terms of "masterpieces". Also found it funny how SFAM placed last in the "holy trinity" even though I rank it at the top. To me, I think it says more about how the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

[fluojn]

Ok, I'll play. I consider the song being a masterpiece, when I always listen to it from start to finish when I play a particular album.

Since I always play albums from start to finish without skipping stuff, this makes absolutely no sense to me.

I rarely, if ever, play albums from start to finish (at least not in a single sitting), but the notion of a song being a "masterpiece" because someone "always listens to [the song] from start to finish" is a bit bizarre.  If you're not going to play a song from start to finish, why even start it (unless it's something like "Misunderstood" that has an easily skippable outro)?

Ok, that "from start to finish" was kinda misleading. I meant that when I listen to some particular album these songs are the ones I want to hear. Everything else might get a skip. For example when I put on the Distance Over Time I usually listen BW, AWE and PBD. For me they are masterpieces. I don't think that's bizarre at all 

As being said, this method is flawed, but fun nevertheless. It can create top lists where I&W, Awake, SFAM and 6DOIT are not always on top. (Even though they still are most of the time)

If I consider also the song lengths like ThatOneGuy2112 suggested, my list is like this (with masterpiece percentage):

1) Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (71,01%)
2) Images and Words (54,13%)
3) Dream Theater (49,56%)
4) Distance Over Time (43,04%)
5) Black Clouds & Silver Linings (42,97%)
6) Scenes form a Memory (40,10%)
7) Train of Thought (35,34%)
8) Systematic Chaos (32,39%)
9) Octavarium (31,67%)
10) Awake (29,75%)
11) When Dream and Day Unite (29,64%)
12) Falling into Infinity (29,56%)
13) The Astonishing (27,66%)
14) A Dramatic Turn of Events (16,11%)

The Astonishing is now WAAAAAAY too low But 6DOIT being my DT all time favourite I don't complain 

[robwebster]

1. Train of Thought (29%)
2. Octavarium (25%)
3. Six Degrees (17%)
4. Images & Words (13%)
5. Dream Theater (11%)
DNR. Everything else (0%)

Maybe I'm gatekeeping a bit too much on the word masterpiece; for me it's something that's both really ambitious and really good, whereas a lot of my favourite songs are more straightforward. Like, The Dark Eternal Night is one of my very favourites, but I wouldn't call it a masterpiece.

[BeatriceNB]

1. TA: 24 (DO, TGOM, LN, WYTH, AOF, TD, BCYHM?, ALLB, Ravenskill, Chosen, ATO, TXA, ANB, MOB, HC, BA, TPTD, TWS, MLF, LF, HOTV, ONW, Astonishing) [#3 on my favourites ranking]

. . .

I gotta ask:  what is your definition of a "masterpiece"?  Given the numbers you mentioned, it seems like it's a pretty low bar.

TA, to me, is a masterpiece on its own, made out of masterpieces; the tracks that aren't there are tracks that have a storytelling purpose, but don't work on their own (like Road To Revolution or The Answer, or the NOMACs tracks, which I like). The Astonishing isn't an album I can listen on any mood, otherwise it would be my favourite, no doubt about that.

FWIW, my question was intended to be more broad than TA.  I didn't add up your numbers, but it seems like you consider more than half of DT's recorded songs to be masterpieces.

I pretty much do, to be fair, not so much for their "Metal" songs, but I still think DT does Metal better than any non-prog Metal band.

[H2]

Actual masterpieces only:

SFAM: 5 <"Fatal Tragedy", "Beyond This Life", "Home", "The Dance of Eternity", "The Spirit Carries On">
IAW: 3 <""Take the Time", "Metropolis Pt. 1", "Learning to Live">
Awake: 1 <"Voices">
SDOIT: 1 <"Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence">
Octavarium: 1 <"Octavarium">
TA: 1 <"Three Days">
D/T: 1 <"At Wit's End">
BCASL: 0
WDADU: 0
FII: 0
TOT: 0
SC: 0
BCASL: 0
ADTOE: 0
DT12: 0

[commanderbob]

My list updated since AVFTTOTW. I highlighted my changes/additions. Where did it rank for y'all? And have there been any changes in the other albums for you?

#15 - WDADU
Masterpiece count: 1 (Ytse Jam).  Production and Charlie's voice drag everything down.

#14 - The Astonishing
Masterpiece count: 1 (Life Left Behind). There are many moment of mastery in this album, but they are either short snippets or the silly story lyrics get in the way. I wish this didn't exist.

#13 TOT
Masterpiece Count: 1 (ITNOG). This ranking surprises me, since I regard the album as a whole a lot higher than this.

#12 AVFTTOTW
Masterpiece Count: 2 (Alien and the title track). This feels right, this does not feel like an essential part of the catalog to me yet.

#11 Black Clouds
Masterpiece Count: 2 (Nightmare and The Count). Not many tracks, and some of their weakest stuff.

#10 ADTOE
Masterpiece Count: 2 (BITS and BAI ). Most of the album is fine but a little flat, other than these 2 gems.

#9 Systematic Chaos
Masterpiece Count: 2 (ITPOE 1 and 2). OK stuff all around, but not many masterpieces.

#8 Octavarium
Masterpiece Count: 2 (Octavarium and Panic Attack). LOL Octavarium should count as 5 masterpieces.

#7 - FII
Masterpiece Count: 4 (Peruvian Skies, HK, LITS and Trial). Makes sense. Middle of the road DT.

#6 DoT
Masterpiece Count: 4 (Unthethered Angel, FITL, Barstool Warrior, Wit's End). I couldn't put PBD on there, too many noodley "Jordan Sections" that drive me nuts. These 4 new songs are some of my favorite that they have ever done, though.

#5  - 6DOIT
Masterpiece Count: 5 (Everything except Disappear). This would be higher if 6DOIT wasn't one song. It would be 8. Which surprises me, since I don't regard this as my tippy-top fav albums.

#4 DT13
Masterpiece Count: 5 (Looking Glass, Enigma, Bigger Picture, Along For the Ride and IT). An appropriate ranking for one of my top 3 DT Albums. Great return to form after ADTOE. It tries to fight it's way to my #1 DT album.

#3 Scenes
Masterpiece Count: 6 (Overture 1929, Strange Deja Vu, Fatal Tragedy, BTL, Home, TSCO). Shocking, since I think of this as mid-pack.

#2 - I&W
Masterpiece Count: 6 (PMU, Surrounded, Met1, UAGM, WFS and LTL). Yup. Too many classics to not be this high.

#1 - Awake
Masterpiece Count: 7 (6:00, Erotomania, Voices, Mirror, Lie, Scarred and SDV). Yup. My fave album ever. By anyone.

[Wim Kruithof]

The Wall is a masterpiece, but I wouldn't consider any song on it close to Masterpiece level.

But you do consider Mother and Comfortably Numb a masterpiece, right?

1. Images & Words
Total runtime: 57m 07s
Masterpieces: 51m 34s (every track save for Surrounded)

I consider Surrounded their best track on Images and Words and Surrounded on Live at the Marquee might be their best live performance to date, for me. Especially LaBrie. Pure perfect.

01) Awake: 6 Voices, The Mirror, Lie, Lifting Shadows Off a Dream, Scarred & Space-Dye Vest
02) The Astonishing: 5 The Savior In the Square, Ravenskill, Chosen, Moment of Betrayal & Hymn of a Thousand Voices
03) Six Degrees: 4 The Glass Prison, Overture, Goodnight Kiss & Losing Time / Grand Finale
04) A Dramatic Turn of Events: 4 Bridges In the Sky, Outcry, Breaking All Illusions & Beneath the Surface
05) Train of Thought: 4 This Dying Soul, Endless Sacrifice, Honor The Father & In the Name of God
06) A View from the Top of the World: 4 Answering the Call, Transcending Time, Awaken the Master, A View from the Top of the World
07) Images and Words: 3 Surrounded, Metropolis pt. 1 & Learning to Live
08) Metropolis pt. 2: 3 Home, One Last Time & Finally Free
09) Black Clouds & Silver Linings: 3 A Nightmare to Remember, The Shattered Fortress & The Count of Tuscany
10) Systematic Chaos: 3 In the Presence of Enemies pt. 1 / 2 & The Ministry of Lost Souls
11) Falling Into Infinity: 3 Hollow Years, Lines In the Sand & Trial of Tears
12) Octavarium: 2 The Root of All Evil & Octavarium
13) Dream Theater: 2 The Bigger Picture & Illumination Theory
14) Distance Over Time: 2 Barstool Warrior & At Wit's End
15) When Dream and Day Unite: 2 Ytse Jam & The Killing Hand
EP) A Change of Seasons: 1 A Change of Seasons

But as always, for me, it could change more than often...

My fave album ever. By anyone.

Same. Best music ever brought to life.

[krands85]

Using the term masterpiece fairly loosely, like I did with my previous post in the thread, AVFTTOTW would probably have:
Title Track, The Alien, Awaken the Master

[Madman Shepherd]

This was a really intriguing idea. I’ve always struggled with album rankings since it’s so subjective and while this is also subjective, it has a somewhat objective anchor. I decided to rank them, not by sheer number of songs, but by the total length of the masterpieces combined. For instance, I put Through My Words in there even though the song doesn’t do much for me aside from being the perfect segue into another perfect song in a string of perfect songs.

Likewise, there are only 3 masterpieces on Train of Thought but that is almost half the album.

I then decided to rank them based on overall percentage of the album that those masterpieces are no. The fact that 6DOIT is so long artificially inflates it’s importance in this ranking so I dividing the length of the masterpieces by total length of the album it gives a different outlook.

This was actually pretty difficult since i suck at math and was constantly being pulled away by a baby, a wife, and a dog that has anxiety, so there may be some mistakes. I’m also surprised how close some of these were.

Edit: I just read through the thread right before posting and saw someone else had this idea. Also, I didn't realize this thread was from years ago.

Masterpiece albums by total length of masterpieces:

1 A Dramatic Turn of Events - Build Me Up, Break Me Down, Lost Not Forgotten, This is the Life, Bridges in the Sky, Outcry, Breaking All Illusions, Beneath the Surface 65:15
2. Systematic Chaos - In the Presence of Enemies, Forsaken, Constant Motion, Prophets of War, Ministry of Lost Souls 59:05 
3. Distance Over Time - Untethered Angel, Paralyzed, Fall Into the Light, S2N, At Wit’s End, Out of Reach, Pale Blue Dot 45:45 
4. Awake - 6:00, Caught in a Web, Voices, Silent Man, Mirror, Lie, Space Dye Vest 45:20
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Blind Faith, Misunderstood, Great Debate, About to Crash, Solitary Shell 44:16
6. Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From a Memory - Regression, Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu, Through My Words, Fatal Tragedy, Home, Finally Free  42:39
7. Falling Into Infinity - Peruvian Skies, Hollow Years, Take Away My Pain, Anna Lee, Trial of Tears 37:35 
8. Train of Thought - As I Am, Endless Sacrifice, In the Name of God 33:20
9. A View From the Top of the World - Alien, Answering the Call, Invisible Monster, Awaken the Master 33:15 
10. Images & Words - Take the Time, Surrounded, Metropolis, Under a Glass Moon 30:25
11. Octavarium - Root of All Evil, These Walls 16:01
12. Dream Theater - The Bigger Picture, Alone for the Ride 12:10 
13. When Dream & Day Unite - The Killing Hand 8:41
14. Black Clouds & Silver Lining - Rite of Passage 8:36
15. The Astonishing - A Life Left Behind 5:49

_______________________________


Masterpiece albums by percentage of the album that is a masterpiece:


1. A Dramatic Turn of Events - Build Me Up, Break Me Down, Lost Not Forgotten, This is the Life, Bridges in the Sky, Outcry, Breaking All Illusions, Beneath the Surface  84%
2. Distance Over Time - Untethered Angel, Paralyzed, Fall Into the Light, S2N, At Wit’s End, Out of Reach, Pale Blue Dot  80%
3. Systematic Chaos - In the Presence of Enemies, Forsaken, Constant Motion, Prophets of War, Ministry of Lost Souls  76%
4. Awake - 6:00, Caught in a Web, Voices, Silent Man, Mirror, Lie, Space Dye Vest  60%
5. Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From a Memory - Regression, Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu, Through My Words, Fatal Tragedy, Home, Finally Free   55%
6. Images & Words - Take the Time, Surrounded, Metropolis, Under a Glass Moon  54%
7. Falling Into Infinity - Peruvian Skies, Hollow Years, Take Away My Pain, Anna Lee, Trial of Tears  48%
8. Train of Thought - As I Am, Endless Sacrifice, In the Name of God  48%
9. A View From the Top of the World - Alien, Answering the Call, Invisible Monster, Awaken the Master  47%
10. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Blind Faith, Misunderstood, Great Debate, About to Crash, Solitary Shell  46%
11. Octavarium - Root of All Evil, These Walls 21%
12. Dream Theater - The Bigger Picture, Alone for the Ride 18%
13. When Dream & Day Unite - The Killing Hand 17%
14. Black Clouds & Silver Lining - Rite of Passage 11%
15. The Astonishing - A Life Left Behind 4%

[TheCountOfNYC]

The way I’ll do this is by how many songs per album are in my top 50. Because A Change of Seasons is in my top 50 (ranked at #3), there will only be 49 songs listed here. The first tiebreaker will be percentage of songs in my top 50, then the next tiebreaker will be which album has the highest ranked song, with a star next to the highest ranked song on each album.

-01) Scenes From a Memory: Overture 1928, Strange Deja Vu, Fatal Tragedy, Beyond this Life, Home, *The Dance of Eternity, The Spirit Carries On, Finally Free (8/12, highest ranked song #9)
-02) The Astonishing: Dystopian Overture, Three Days, A Life Left Behind, A New Beginning, *Our New World (5/34, highest ranked song #21)
-03) Black Clouds & Silver Linings: A Nightmare to Remember, The Shattered Fortress, The Best of Times, *The Count of Tuscany (4/6, highest ranked song #2)
-04) Train of Thought: As I Am, Vacant, *Stream of Consciousness, In the Name of God (4/7, highest ranked song #14)
-05) Octavarium: These Walls, Panic Attack, Never Enough, *Octavarium (4/8, highest ranked song #1)
-06) Images and Words: Another Day, *Take the Time, Metropolis, Learning to Live (4/8, highest ranked song #5)
-07) Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: Blind Faith, Disappear, *Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (3/6, highest ranked song #7)
-08) A Dramatic Turn of Events: Bridges in the Sky, *Breaking All Illusions, Beneath the Surface (3/9, highest ranked song #4)
-09) Falling Into Infinity: Hell’s Kitchen, *Lines in the Sand, Trial of Tears (3/11, highest ranked song #13)
-10) A View From the Top of the World: *Sleeping Giant, A View From the Top of the World (2/7, highest ranked song #6)
-11) Systematic Chaos: *Constant Motion, In the Presence of Enemies (2/7, highest ranked song #11)
-12) When Dream and Day Unite: *Afterlife, Only a Matter of Time (2/8, highest ranked song #18)
-13) Distance Over Time: S2N, *Pale Blue Dot (2/9, highest ranked song #27)
-14) Dream Theater: Surrender to Reason, Illumination Theory (2/9, highest ranked song #28)
-15) Awake: *Scarred (1/11, highest ranked song #44)

When ranked strictly by percentage (with highest rated song being the tiebreaker), the list breaks down like this.

-01) Black Clouds & Silver Linings: 75% (4/6, highest ranked song #2)
-02) Scenes From a Memory: 75% (8/12, highest ranked song #9)
-03) Train of Thought: 57% (4/7, highest ranked song #14)
-04) Octavarium: 50% (4/8, highest ranked song #1)
-05) Images and Words: 50% (4/8, highest ranked song #5)
-06) Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 50% (3/6, highest ranked song #7)
-07) A Dramatic Turn of Events: 33% (3/9, highest ranked song #4)
-08) A View From the Top of the World: 29% (2/7, highest ranked song #6)
-09) Systematic Chaos: 29% (2/7, highest ranked song #11)
-10) Falling into Infinity: 27% (3/11, highest ranked song #13)
-11) When Dream and Day Unite: 25% (2/8, highest ranked song #18)
-12) Distance Over Time: 22% (2/9, highest ranked song #27)
-13) Dream Theater: 22% (2/9, highest ranked song #28)
-14) The Astonishing: 15% (5/34, highest ranked song #21)
-15) Awake: 9% (1/11, highest ranked song #44)

[crystalstars17]

Using the term masterpiece fairly loosely, like I did with my previous post in the thread, AVFTTOTW would probably have:
Title Track, The Alien, Awaken the Master

I would need to give significant time (whether I'll actually have that is debatable) and a lot more thought to ranking the entire catalog in this manner, but my immediate first thought was "A View From the Top of the World". That song is THE masterpiece. Over a year later I'm still in the honeymoon phase with this album. 💖 LOVE. 💖

[Madman Shepherd]

Using the term masterpiece fairly loosely, like I did with my previous post in the thread, AVFTTOTW would probably have:
Title Track, The Alien, Awaken the Master

I would need to give significant time (whether I'll actually have that is debatable) and a lot more thought to ranking the entire catalog in this manner, but my immediate first thought was "A View From the Top of the World". That song is THE masterpiece. Over a year later I'm still in the honeymoon phase with this album. 💖 LOVE. 💖

It's funny. I think this is a much easier way to rank the albums. I've never been one to rank things because it's much harder for me to think, "Well, I kind of like this one but a little better than this one"