Differing viewpoints on obvious influences in DT songs

[Setlist Scotty]

Having just listened to Octavarium the song yesterday, I was thinking about how much that particular song was praised, despite the obvious nods to Pink Floyd, Yes and others. But on the other hand, a song like Prophets of War is generally regarded with disdain, largely due to the overt Muse influence. And this is not limited to just these two songs - they're probably just the two most extreme examples of how fans look at songs that have significant influences.

So my question is: why is it that no one makes a big issue with regards to some songs, and for other songs it's a major problem that fans are quick to criticize?

[bosk1]

I'm not sure those are the best examples.  I don't recall POW being panned so much because of the Muse influences, but rather just because it isn't a very good song.  But that said, I think there are at least a few things that come to mind that do go to your overall point:

1.  I think sometimes, it depends on whether someone likes the particular influence.  For someone who likes Floyd or Yes, a nod to those bands in DT's music might be great.  If that same person hates Muse, obviously, they won't take as kindly to a Muse influence. 

2.  It might not be the influence itself that is the issue in a particular song.  I'm not sure I get much of a Muse influence in POW.  But to the extent there is, I just don't like that particular song.  But Panic Attack, which seems to have a pretty heavy Bellamy influence in the vocals, sounds fantastic to me.  So, same band as an influence.  But I love one song and hate the other.  The influence doesn't have anything to do with it.

3.  It might be the extent of the influence and a particular person's subjective feeling on when "enough is too much."  A subtle influence might be just fine.  But when, e.g., the chord and note progressions in TDS seem to outright mimic Blackened, some fans might say "okay, that's just too much to not be a distraction," even if they like Blackened.

Those are my thoughts.

[cramx3]

I just think if you like it, you look past those things and if you don't you use that as a reason to not like it.  Just speaking in general. 

Octavarium is a way more liked song than PoW so I think that just comes into play more so than the influences.

[RoeDent]

It's annoying that influence is always seen as a negative trait. Everything that has ever been in music has been influenced by what has gone before, some more subtly than others, but still everything has gleaned something from what has gone before. You'd think we'd be used to it by now. It should be a beautiful thing that all our lives, going right through history, are entwined.

I wonder where the lines fall on criticism of influences. If it's older people criticising DT's Muse influence while praising the Floyd/Yes influence, that would say an awful lot about the generation gap.

[Anguyen92]

Interesting topic.  I don't enjoy much about Octavarium as others do and I do think part of that reason was mainly due to the callbacks to older bands.  After all, if I don't care about those older bands, it's going to be hard for me to care about those nods or the song.  However, take a song like The Looking Glass, which easily takes influences to Rush's Limelight.  I like Limelight the most out of Rush's most well-known songs, so something like The Looking Glass is going to be an easy win for me, even if the influences appears to be blatant to me.

I do recall the backlash that Avenged Sevenfold's This Means War did to their reputation since it's so similar to Sad But True, but then they came back with the next album, The Stage, so it's pretty much water under the bridge now.

[King Postwhore]

Interesting topic.  I don't enjoy much about Octavarium as others do and I do think part of that reason was mainly due to the callbacks to older bands.  After all, if I don't care about those older bands, it's going to be hard for me to care about those nods or the song.  However, take a song like The Looking Glass, which easily takes influences to Rush's Limelight.  I like Limelight the most out of Rush's most well-known songs, so something like The Looking Glass is going to be an easy win for me, even if the influences appears to be blatant to me.

I do recall the backlash that Avenged Sevenfold's This Means War did to their reputation since it's so similar to Sad But True, but then they came back with the next album, The Stage, so it's pretty much water under the bridge now.

And now an old fart who loves Rush will correct you.   I think it's more or a nod to the sound of Permanent Waves.  The bass growl and the solo is a nod to that album.



Wait!  Influences of bands that lead to influences of certain albums!  A bit of a 4th wall.  * I said this in my Deadpool voice*

[MoraWintersoul]

I think this is about Octavarium the song: it's about everything they are as a band, all of their influences, and a journey within a journey - it's pretty appropriate to have references there. It's also about the content of the references in the other songs: if they reference Rush super blatantly, a band much older and more revered than them, most people think it makes sense. If they reference a recent song by Muse super blatantly, a band younger than them and from a different scene, suddenly it's not taking influence, but like... ripping off. I don't think of it that way - I know DT love to reference directly and will often point out what they referenced, they aren't hiding "lifting riffs" or whatever, they have no problem coming up with original content and just wanna pay respect to some bands. But most people have negative associations with that.

[RoeDent]

And sometimes, it's just as plain and simple as elements of an older band's sound being in DT's musical DNA.

[Shooters1221]

I think Bosk’s #1 response also has to do with the listeners age as DT has been around for many years now and I’m around the same age as JP/JM and have the same influences as they did growing up in that era and pretty much every Rush/Yes part I hear, I love, where as I can’t relate to some of the younger fans views on the other, latter influences like Muse which I think were only formed in the mid 90’s(sheesh...that’s even 25 years ago)...uggg! Well, IDK, I think that maybe some of the younger fans don’t even realize that some pieces are influenced by what us older fans recognize. An example I showed my nephew the other day as we were listening to IT and part IV. The Pursuit of Truth came up and I told him how “I believe” that it was kind of a nod to Rush’s “The Necromancer” part II. Under The Shadow” for about a minute or so, and he had never heard of that song, so had no idea. WOW, sorry, I got waaaay off topic but point being that age and era kind of plays a role.

Or not because I love the metal/Pantera stuff too...LOL Great topic/question!

[KevShmev]

I just think if you like it, you look past those things and if you don't you use that as a reason to not like it.  Just speaking in general. 

Agreed.

For me, if I really like a song, I listen to it a lot, and then the obvious influence and/or "borrowed" melody or riff sometimes gets lost in my head to where I don't even notice it, or barely that is, because the song becomes all Dream Theater at some point.

[Dublagent66]

Do people like a certain song or not?  That's the main thing.  I really don't think influences are a major factor either way.  Like Kev said, it's all DT in the end anyway like it or not.  For example, most people here already know that I don't like Illumination Theory.  Some also know that Rush is my all-time favorite band.  However, just because IT has some obvious Rush influence doesn't change the fact that I don't like it.

[Zook]

Comparing Prophets of War to Octavarium should get you at least a few years in prison.

[Shooters1221]

Do people like a certain song or not?  That's the main thing.  I really don't think influences are a major factor either way.  Like Kev said, it's all DT in the end anyway like it or not.  For example, most people here already know that I don't like Illumination Theory.  Some also know that Rush is my all-time favorite band.  However, just because IT has some obvious Rush influence doesn't change the fact that I don't like it.

I hear ya, but I just remember the very 1st listen through of LTL back in 91...yes I already listened to the rest of IAW from the start...maybe I skipped PMU because of radio play, but hearing that bass line for the 1st time, thinking..”Heart Of The Sunrise” and looking down at the CD cover to see the length of that piece with much anticipation. So, it did kind of “influence me”, but of course, it is a masterpiece regardless, just a point of reference. I just think that DT is that rare type of band due to the longevity and type of progressive/metal/classical/rock/whatever styles that can carry influences through a couple of different generations and the way the music industry is going, 200 years from now, we are f***ing lucky to witness it, but yes, it’s always an individual listener ‘thing’. JMO.

[gzarruk]

I think there's two factors at play here:

First, it's about how much of an influence/inspiration it ends up being for the new song. It can be more subtle, like Surrender to Reason, where we know there's definitely a Rush-like style being used, but the song still sounds like DT and the Rush inspiration only enhances the song. There's other cases where the influence is much more in your face, so much that people might accuse them of "ripping off" another artist's songs, like Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome and BMU,BMD/Feed the Machine. The former tends to be perceived very well, while the latter isn't.

The other element is what people already commented here, it all depends on whether you like the original artist/song or not and if you like the new song or not. (TL;DR, taste).

[ReaPsTA]

I think the crux of the issue is whether or not it sounds like a Dream Theater song with an exterior influence, or just Dream Theater lifting from another band.

Having just listened to Octavarium the song yesterday, I was thinking about how much that particular song was praised, despite the obvious nods to Pink Floyd, Yes and others. But on the other hand, a song like Prophets of War is generally regarded with disdain, largely due to the overt Muse influence. And this is not limited to just these two songs - they're probably just the two most extreme examples of how fans look at songs that have significant influences.

So my question is: why is it that no one makes a big issue with regards to some songs, and for other songs it's a major problem that fans are quick to criticize?

I can only comment on the Floyd influence - Octavarium has an extended intro with spacey leads played over a very warm and spacey pad, like Shine On You Crazy Diamond. But you can't listen to the Continuum and Lap Steel solos and not hear the fact that Jordan Rudess is playing them.

As for Prophets of War, I like the first verse, but I don't hear Dream Theater in it. I hear Dream Theater trying to do Muse. If I want to hear Muse, I'll listen to Muse.

[Devin Townsend]

Is it just me or is "Untethered Angel" almost like a mini version of "In the name of God" with some flourishes from "On the blacks of angels" and/or "The enemy inside", at least stylistically.
I listened to the instrumental version of Untethered Angel and the similarity with the aforementioned TOT song did come to mind, has anyone else noticed this before? it seems to show in the keyboard solo parts too.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I’ll use what is probably the most notorious song in their discography as far as this subject is concerned: Never Enough. Now I’ve stated many times that I absolutely love this song, but it’s essentially a more technical version of Stockholm Syndrome by Muse. While that doesn’t ruin the song for me, I still joke about it every time the song comes on, and I can see how it would turn people off. Now take a song like I Walk Beside You. It has obvious U2 influences, but it isn’t outright copying a U2 song’s chord progression or structure.

[Grizz]

I've always felt that Floyd was one of the biggest influences on DT, at least as big as Rush or Metallica. So, when a song sounds a lot like Pink Floyd, it doesn't stand out.

Prophets of War sounds like store-brand Muse. It's a radical departure from what DT fans have come to know and love, so it's going to be scrutinized. I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with the Muse influence, but I don't love the song, and when asked why, that might be something I cite.

[pg1067]

Having just listened to Octavarium the song yesterday, I was thinking about how much that particular song was praised, despite the obvious nods to Pink Floyd, Yes and others. But on the other hand, a song like Prophets of War is generally regarded with disdain, largely due to the overt Muse influence. And this is not limited to just these two songs - they're probably just the two most extreme examples of how fans look at songs that have significant influences.

So my question is: why is it that no one makes a big issue with regards to some songs, and for other songs it's a major problem that fans are quick to criticize?

I've never heard of POW being criticized because of any influence (I'm not familiar with Muse, so any obvious influence wasn't obvious to me), and I've sometimes heard Octavarium criticized because of the several influences.

I generally like the overt influences, but I don't usually recognize them.  Probably the first ones I noticed were Solitary Shell (Yes) and About to Crash (Reprise) (Styx).  The only others that struck me as obvious were in Panic Attack (Maiden) and The Looking Glass (Rush) (this one was well publicized before the album was released, but I probably would have noticed it anyway).  I like all of those songs, and my fondness for them is partly, but not entirely, a result of the references to those other bands in ways that didn't seem like ripoffs.

Others that weren't obvious to me until they were pointed out are Metropolis (my roommate at the time commented that the instrumental section reminded him of the Dregs) and most of the stuff on SFAM that the band members point out in the commentary track.  In particular, the Frank Zappa section in Beyond this Life is my favorite part of the song, and I'm not sure I've ever heard a single thing Frank Zappa ever did.

[Cool Chris]

I do not tend to hear the influences as readily as others, but I also don't listen to many of the bands the seem to emulate the most often (at least based on reading through this thread). I liked Never Enough and Prophets of War before ever hearing anything by Muse, for example. When it was pointed out to me, I could hear it, and then it got a little annoying that my favorite band couldn't be a little more original in some of their compositions, it also never bothered me much.

[Herrick]

I’ll use what is probably the most notorious song in their discography as far as this subject is concerned: Never Enough. Now I’ve stated many times that I absolutely love this song, but it’s essentially a more technical version of Stockholm Syndrome by Muse. While that doesn’t ruin the song for me, I still joke about it every time the song comes on, and I can see how it would turn people off. Now take a song like I Walk Beside You. It has obvious U2 influences, but it isn’t outright copying a U2 song’s chord progression or structure.

Interesting. I never knew Prophets of War and Never Enough were influenced by Muse. I don't listen to Muse but I do like Never Enough quite a bit. On the other hand, I actively dislike U2 and I do not like I Walk Beside You at all.

[gzarruk]

But there's two different cases here. POW sounds like DT exploring a different sound, borrowing a lot from Muse's style, but that's it (whether we like the song or not is a different story).

Never Enough is basically DT covering a Muse song, but with different lyrics and a cool instrumental section. The "influence" is much more in your face. You could even sing NE in SS and vice versa and they fit. That's why I got angry at MP when he said BMU,BMD was too similar to that song by Red, as he did the same exact thing (or even worse) with NE.

[Indiscipline]

DT without influences/nods/winks/reference would be at least 50% interesting and enjoyable to me.

[Grappler]

Well there's influences and then there's specifically crafting songs to sound like other artists.  Nobody begrudges a band for their influences as long as it doesn't start to sacrifice their own style.  I feel that some of DT's music falls into the latter part - at least albums like Octavarium.  Even The Great Debate from Six Degrees - that one sounds so much like Tool and not Dream Theater.  Whereas The Glass Prison sounds nothing like Pantera despite being heavily influenced by them. 

Amon Amarth did this as an EP - they wrote four of their own songs, but in the styles of Priest, AC/DC, Motorhead and Sabbath.  It was included as a bonus EP to a new album and was intended to be just something fun for the band and their fans.

Dream Theater, however, wrote some songs in very similar styles to other artists and put them on their studio albums.  I think that takes it a little too far, sacrificing their own style just to emulate someone else's.

[hefdaddy42]

Perhaps the most egregious example:  Build Me Up, Break Me Down sounds almost exactly like Feed the Machine by Red.

And also, I don't like it.  Which, again, seems to be the main point.

[MirrorMask]

On the other hand, there are influences that you discover later and then you forget about it because the song is so awesome. I mean, it's a bit of a bugger to listen to Home and then to 46 and 2 by Tool but then the song is great and I just pretend the likeness isn't there.

[Lethean]

I dunno - if Build Me Up, Break Me Down is the worst example... I think DT's doing alright.  I remember listening to them back to back when it was first brought up and it didn't seem at all like "almost exactly" to me.  I've done it again a few times since, including now, and feel the same way.  Maybe something's wrong with me.  The Muse example is a lot "worse" to me.

[hefdaddy42]

I dunno - if Build Me Up, Break Me Down is the worst example... I think DT's doing alright.  I remember listening to them back to back when it was first brought up and it didn't seem at all like "almost exactly" to me.  I've done it again a few times since, including now, and feel the same way.  Maybe something's wrong with me.  The Muse example is a lot "worse" to me.

They are both bad.  "Worst" is probably up for debate.

[Samsara]

Having just listened to Octavarium the song yesterday, I was thinking about how much that particular song was praised, despite the obvious nods to Pink Floyd, Yes and others. But on the other hand, a song like Prophets of War is generally regarded with disdain, largely due to the overt Muse influence. And this is not limited to just these two songs - they're probably just the two most extreme examples of how fans look at songs that have significant influences.

So my question is: why is it that no one makes a big issue with regards to some songs, and for other songs it's a major problem that fans are quick to criticize?

Because not everyone knows all the references. I think if we all recalled everything, I think a lot more people would be critical. In addition, DT got a lot more overt with what they were "borrowing" over the years. So while stuff from Images, Awake, FII, SFAM tip the cap to obvious influences, stuff from the later-era MP catalog really makes it much more overt. At least to my ears.

[Max Kuehnau]

Having just listened to Octavarium the song yesterday, I was thinking about how much that particular song was praised, despite the obvious nods to Pink Floyd, Yes and others. But on the other hand, a song like Prophets of War is generally regarded with disdain, largely due to the overt Muse influence. And this is not limited to just these two songs - they're probably just the two most extreme examples of how fans look at songs that have significant influences.

So my question is: why is it that no one makes a big issue with regards to some songs, and for other songs it's a major problem that fans are quick to criticize?

Because not everyone knows all the references. I think if we all recalled everything, I think a lot more people would be critical. In addition, DT got a lot more overt with what they were "borrowing" over the years. So while stuff from Images, Awake, FII, SFAM tip the cap to obvious influences, stuff from the later-era MP catalog really makes it much more overt. At least to my ears.

I agree.

[fischermasamune]

I listened to Octavarium before Shine On You Crazy Diamond, Learning to Live before Heart Of The Sunrise, and listened to BMUBMD and Never Enough before anything of Muse or Red.

I pretty much always consider Octavarium and Learning To Live to be among the best DT songs, and the other two in the bottom 25% DT songs.

I like Pink Floyd and Yes, but not Red and Muse (which I just listened to today).

At least for me, the taste is probably more about the style and quality of the songs than the fact that there were nods and influences.

[Rob24]

DT without influences/nods/winks/reference would be at least 50% interesting and enjoyable to me.

This. And I would go a step further and say music wouldn't even exist if not for reprocessing of old ideas to create new material. The point is, some artists never realize that and strive to create purely original material all the time (as if such thing exists), while others acknowledge it and work with it in the best way they can. Petrucci belongs to the latter group - he knows that you cannot create something really "new"; there's always a foundation and given the knowledge of this mechanism he might as well do it in a more conscious fashion and do something like "his own version of a Muse / Rush / ... song".

Now, the difference in the way this is received by fans, IMO, lies in the fact that there still are a lot of people that think you have to break some kind of new ground with music. They classify influences in "worthy / obvious / classy" categories and make some kind of contest out of it, where Petrucci fails when the nods are to obvious or from a band they dislike. Also, preferences have a lot to do with it.

[pg1067]

I listened to Octavarium before Shine On You Crazy Diamond, Learning to Live before Heart Of The Sunrise, and listened to BMUBMD and Never Enough before anything of Muse or Red.

Hmmm...

I've been listening to Yes since the mid- to late 80s and to DT since 1992.  In all that time, I've never once thought LTL was reminiscent of HOTS or heard anyone suggest that.  I googled it and found a post on Reddit in which someone noted that both songs have "energetic" intros followed by long bass groove sections over strings.  Someone else noted that both LTL and HOTS "reprise" shorter songs found earlier on the album, but I don't think that's correct for HOTS.  The snippet from "We Have Heaven" at the end of Fragile is not part of HOTS.  I couldn't find anything else, and I think the intro and bass groove similarities are pretty superficial (as are the facts that both songs are longer than 10 minutes and close their respective albums).

Interesting to think about, though.