Is the praise for DoT for the album itself or b/c it's Not-The-Astonishing?

[zappafrank2112]

Controversial opinion, please don't attack me, but given that DoT thus far has failed to wow me on a personal level, and I really haven't felt the need to keep replaying it, all of the praise for the album seems really weird to me.  I don't get what's so amazing about it and why people seem to be losing their minds over it.

And it's caused me to wonder if so much of the apparently ubiquitous praise for the album isn't so much for what the album is, but for the fact of what it isn't, i.e., The Astonishing.  People seem to be so happy that the album is not overblown, is not self-indulgent (by DT standards), and shows a lot of more of the "playing" that DT is known for that they're missing the fact that the album is really just kinda there and really is no great shakes (IMO).  Seeing them a few weeks ago in Upper Darby, I honestly was more excited for the 1 or 2 deep cuts from other albums I anticipated we'd get, more so than anything they might have played off the new album.  There was nothing to me that screamed "gotta hear this live!"

I also can't understand why to my ears this mix is so much flatter than it should be.  There's no oomph to the album at all.  And if your argument is "well, you need a really good setup to get it," that's a failure on their part, to make sure the album sounds as good as possible across all platforms. I also feel like the songs have a weird structure to them, where they start off a bit to get going, and then they get going... and then they just kinda trail off and end (I feel like At Wit's End and Pale Blue Dot suffer the most from this, and all the interplay at the start of Barstool Warrior devolves into the typical sort of plodding stuff that I think DT has been too guilty of over time).

There is stuff I enjoy about the album: the interesting melodies during the verses of Paralyzed, the noodliness in Fall into the Light, the aggression of Room 137, the beauty of Out of Reach (the one song I think I'd really actually have wanted to hear live, aside from maybe Room 137).  But I don't feel like the album is anywhere near "man, run out and get it NOW."

It's come out, I've seen the tour, the show didn't blow me away (I wasn't keen on seeing 1/2 of the show taken up by SFaM, which I already caught back when it came out), next. 

[Setlist Scotty]

For me, it's for the album itself. IMO, it's the best album of the MM-era. It has nothing to do with TA.

[zappafrank2112]

For me, it's for the album itself. IMO, it's the best album of the MM-era. It has nothing to do with TA.

See, I'd argue that DT12 does a better job of hitting on all cylinders consistently, and had more variety IMO.  And the tour for the album was great.

[bill1971]

Well since I loved the Astonishing and love this album for me that answer is no. This is very different and I like it better than the Astonishing but also like it better than every other DT album except for Awake, SFAM and MAYBE I&W.
It's just a great combination of intricate playing, emotion, amazing riffs and the best drumming on any DT album.
Sorry to hear it isn't clicking with you, there has been music that everyone else seems to love and doesn't click with me, I don't get it sometimes but glad they enjoy it.

[Progmetty]

For me, it's for the album itself. IMO, it's the best album of the MM-era. It has nothing to do with TA.

Definitely this.

[bosk1]

Well since I loved the Astonishing and love this album for me that answer is no.

Yeah, same here.  But even for those who didn't like The Astonishing and like this album, I don't think it has anything to do with D/T being different from TA.  I would be surprised if more than a handful of responses say otherwise.

[tjanuranus]

It's arguably the best MM era album to me. So I say it's warranted! 

[Samsara]

Absolutely the album itself. It's my favorite album of theirs in 20 years.

[Nekov]

Well, I talked to my brother shortly after the album had come out and he acknowledged that, while he liked it a lot, he was probably being over-appreciative of the album because of how much he didn't like TA.
I didn't like it at first but it has grown on me, though I don't think it's as good as many people here think it is.
You should take into account that this is a DT forum and most of the fans are biased towards the band 

[lovethedrake]

A few things:

1. I loved TA so that is definitely not the case for me. 

2. I think it's their best album since SDOIT by a considerable margin with TA coming next.

3. People are praising the album but VERY few people have DOT in their top 3 albums. 

I think At Wit's End is a flat out classic and I haven't said that since SDOIT. 

Personally I have the album 5th behind The Big 3 (SFAM, I&W, SDOIT) and Awake. 

If you remove UA and R137 and replace them with 2 more classics it may have eclipsed Awake but it sits nicely at #5 as is.

[RAIN]

I completely understand what the OP is getting at, and it does make sense, and would not be surprised to hear that many fans feel like this.
I for one am not completely sure myself if it's because it's after TA, or that after 3 past albums, I'm finally used to this new DT...

[Setlist Scotty]

You should take into account that this is a DT forum and most of the fans are biased towards the band 

True, but there is quite a bunch even here on this forum who really did not like TA, so I think the OP's question is valid.
 
 

3. People are praising the album but VERY few people have DOT in their top 3 albums. 

Yes, but.....

Personally I have the album 5th behind The Big 3 (SFAM, I&W, SDOIT) and Awake. 

So what does your third point really have to do with your argument? DT has some very strong albums in its back catalog for d/t to "compete" with. So should it really be expected for d/t to make most fans' top 3, especially when it didn't even make yours?

[RoeDent]

OP, are you in collaboration with WildRanger in trying to stir up controversy here? As a supporter of Dream Theater, the reaction to D/T has been absolutely magnificent, and a welcome relief after 3 years of trying to fight the corner of TA and only coming up with an endless barrage of unjustified vitriol towards that great album. It's fantastic to see people getting behind the greatest band of all time once again.

[zappafrank2112]

OP, are you in collaboration with WildRanger in trying to stir up controversy here? As a supporter of Dream Theater, the reaction to D/T has been absolutely magnificent, and a welcome relief after 3 years of trying to fight the corner of TA and only coming up with an endless barrage of unjustified vitriol towards that great album. It's fantastic to see people getting behind the greatest band of all time once again.

...

I asked a sincere question and prefaced it with the knowledge that it might be controversial, asking that I not be attacked and explaining where I was coming from.

You may apologize to me now. 

[zappafrank2112]

a welcome relief after 3 years of trying to fight the corner of TA and only coming up with an endless barrage of unjustified vitriol towards that great album

Your hyperbole would suggest that you're the one trying to stir up controversy

[zappafrank2112]

Personally I have the album 5th behind The Big 3 (SFAM, I&W, SDOIT) and Awake. 

Is 6DoIT really considered top shelf across the fanbase at large?  I know a huge DT fan who can't stand Disc 2 and finds it completely unnecessary and also doesn't like The Great Debate.

[RoeDent]

OK, Sorry.

To answer the question, the praise is for the album. Have you heard it? It's bloody BRILLIANT! DT are back on top of the tree where they belong, baby! And we as fans should be celebrating! Everyone's finally happy with MM's drum parts, after years of criticism aimed at him when it should have been aimed at whoever mixed his drums.

[emtee]

It has nothing to do with TA. To my ears It's a great album full
of amazing songs...and it sounds excellent too.

[zappafrank2112]

OK, Sorry.

To answer the question, the praise is for the album. Have you heard it? It's bloody BRILLIANT! DT are back on top of the tree where they belong, baby! And we as fans should be celebrating! Everyone's finally happy with MM's drum parts, after years of criticism aimed at him when it should have been aimed at whoever mixed his drums.

Thank you.

I honestly am just not that moved by it, and DT is one of my top 5 favorite bands I hold near and dear.  I didn't feel bored or inconvenienced during the show when they played songs from it, and I'm glad I went.  But for some reason it hasn't made an impression on me other than "this is perfectly cromulent, but nothing more."

[bosk1]

I honestly am just not that moved by it

Then maybe that's all there is to it, and you don't need to try to come up with crazy theories or try to get others on the forum to help you feel better about not liking it more.  You don't like it?  Cool.  Listen to the stuff you do like.

[zappafrank2112]

I honestly am just not that moved by it

Then maybe that's all there is to it, and you don't need to try to come up with crazy theories or try to get others on the forum to help you feel better about not liking it more.  You don't like it?  Cool.  Listen to the stuff you do like.

...

Ooookaaaay then.  I'm just trying to spark discussion to see what people think, discussions I've had IRL with friends of mine, b/c I'm genuinely interested in their experience.  No need for this kind of reply to me (unless I've misread, apologies if so... I just kind of feel attacked).

[cramx3]

D/T sounds more like what people know and like DT for than TA so it's not surprise it is liked more overall by the fanbase.  I don't think it's because it's "not the astonishing" under that idea, DT could have experimented further and it would have been interesting to see the results, but I'd guess it wouldn't of been as popular as D/T simply because D/T sounds like a modern DT album.

Although maybe because of the long time between DT12 and D/T that maybe the return to this did hype up the album a bit more.  But I'm not sure about that.  And I'm a fan of both albums, I'm not really sure which one I like more honestly.

[zappafrank2112]

I just thought of something I could relay that might explain sort of where I'm coming from.

When Metallica's "Death Magnetic" came out, people were all over themselves in joy.  I personally thought it was a great return to form (not that I hated any of the other stuff, mind you).

But I had one friend who flat out raised the same kind of issue as I'm raising: how much of the praise for the album was because it wasn't St. Anger or the Load's?

Looking back, people have a lot of problems with the album, like the brickwalling and the long sort of unfocused songs, but at the time, all I remember is, "praise the lawd, Metallica is back!!!!" So my mind kind of drifted back to that.  B/c I wouldn't necessarily reach for Death Magnetic these days the same way I would have back then.  Not to say I don't enjoy it or don't ever feel like it's the thing that perfectly fits my mood, but I do see where some of the "hold on now, let's slow our role a bit" comes from.

[cramx3]

Time will tell, Death Magnetic, also like D/T was closer to a return to form.  For me, I enjoyed it and liked the return to a better style, but over time, I find that album to be not the greatest.  Still light years better than St Anger, but not touching the rest of their albums, including Hardwired. 

[Samsara]

I just thought of something I could relay that might explain sort of where I'm coming from.

When Metallica's "Death Magnetic" came out, people were all over themselves in joy.  I personally thought it was a great return to form (not that I hated any of the other stuff, mind you).

That's a bad comparison, at least for me, as I was a big fan of Metallica fan from the first record through ...And Justice. And all Death Magnetic sounded like to me is them trying to please people from the thrash era, and make things overly bloated. Total jump the shark moment.

Distance Over Time isn't the same as that. It has the sound of a band coming together to realize their strengths, and playing to them in a way that is new and original. Same with Fates Warning's Theories of Flight. I don't even think in either of those examples that it was a conscious thing, except for wanting to get back to a certain vibe. By comparison, with Metallica, Death Magnetic was very contrived from the get-go. I don't think they quite got it right until Hardwired. And even then, I think parts of that are a bit contrived too. Metallica is a weird band in terms of understanding where they are coming from.

Anyway, Distance Over Time is the band discovering their chemistry together, again. And it worked out beautifully.

[bosk1]

I just thought of something I could relay that might explain sort of where I'm coming from.

When Metallica's "Death Magnetic" came out, people were all over themselves in joy.  I personally thought it was a great return to form (not that I hated any of the other stuff, mind you).

But I had one friend who flat out raised the same kind of issue as I'm raising: how much of the praise for the album was because it wasn't St. Anger or the Load's?

Looking back, people have a lot of problems with the album, like the brickwalling and the long sort of unfocused songs, but at the time, all I remember is, "praise the lawd, Metallica is back!!!!" So my mind kind of drifted back to that.  B/c I wouldn't necessarily reach for Death Magnetic these days the same way I would have back then.  Not to say I don't enjoy it or don't ever feel like it's the thing that perfectly fits my mood, but I do see where some of the "hold on now, let's slow our role a bit" comes from.

Put that way, I kind of see where you are coming from.  But I still see this situation as different.  I can identify with what you wrote about Metallica because (1) I saw the same thing, and (2) there are other bands we can point to that went through similar things.  Queensryche definitely comes to mind.  Although their sound changed and evolved, sometimes quite significantly, from album to album, there was still a "core sound" that fans came to expect after the first 5 or 6 albums.  Then HITNF came out, and many fans flipped out and didn't like it.  Same with Q2K.  And every album after that throughout the rest of the Tate era kind of repeated the cycle you identified with Metallica, where fans accepted whatever new album came out and said "Finally, Queensryche are back!" just because it didn't sound like whatever the most recent album was...and then the "new album smell" would wear off, and people would realize that that new album wasn't really that good either.  And then repeat...

Dream Theater never really lost their way and dramatically changed their core sound like that though.  I mean, yeah, The Astonishing was a departure.  But it was a one-album deviation that was intended to be just that.  And D/T, unlike the Metallica or Queensryche albums we can point to, is an album where most fans seem to really like most if not all of the songs.  There doesn't seem to be that "Death Magnetic phenomenon" of "Yes, now THIS finally sounds like 'old Metallica'...well, at least, these 3 or 4 songs do.  And I guess this other 1 or 2 are okay too.  But the rest...meh.  BUT METALLICA IS BACK, BABY!"  I think a lot of us feel that D/T is a very consistent album from start to finish (or at least feel that way about most of it).

[geeeemo]

I love TA.  Of course, everyone likes what they like or not. I like ketchup on my potato chips!

Now I was Hyped when d/t came out. I discovered DT only 3 years ago and now can barely listen to any other band. This was my first "new release" since I came on board.  That said, I was only ok with most of this record initially.  It was a total grower and took time - and it has been this way for me with a majority of their music. My experience these last 3 years is that every record was new, so I can easily remember how I have come to love the music.

I got closer to the songs when I learned the lyrics and understood the meaning. After this, At Wit's End became a top 5 song for me. Lately,  I can't seem to get enough of S2N, and at first it was my least favorite. When I put this on and ride my bike, it is perfect. Hard and edgy or emotionally energizing!

Idk, but the sound of d/t is so different to me than how the other records sounded.  I thought that the singing was far away and odd, the music weird...Oh, wait.  It's prog..  And that is one of the great things about DT. They can sound different, but sound like DT!  When I say it was a grower I am talking maybe 30 listens..

[Dublagent66]

I like DoT because I think it's a great album.  Whether is better than TA or not, it's still a great album.

D/T sounds more like what people know and like DT for than TA so it's not surprise it is liked more overall by the fanbase.

I think most of us can agree with this.  Makes a lot of sense.

[lovethedrake]

You should take into account that this is a DT forum and most of the fans are biased towards the band 

True, but there is quite a bunch even here on this forum who really did not like TA, so I think the OP's question is valid.
 
 

3. People are praising the album but VERY few people have DOT in their top 3 albums. 

Yes, but.....

Personally I have the album 5th behind The Big 3 (SFAM, I&W, SDOIT) and Awake. 

So what does your third point really have to do with your argument? DT has some very strong albums in its back catalog for d/t to "compete" with. So should it really be expected for d/t to make most fans' top 3, especially when it didn't even make yours?

My point is just that although the album has received great praise I don't think people are saying it's incredible or anything amazing.   People are ranking it ahead of the MM albums and the final MP albums (which are generally considered lower tier DT).  So although it is being well received it's not like people are saying "this is the greatest album ever". 

I think a better question would be "is this album receiving praise because the band is getting old and hasn't had a universally praised album in quite some time?   I  don't think it has much to do with TA.

[lovethedrake]

Personally I have the album 5th behind The Big 3 (SFAM, I&W, SDOIT) and Awake. 

Is 6DoIT really considered top shelf across the fanbase at large?  I know a huge DT fan who can't stand Disc 2 and finds it completely unnecessary and also doesn't like The Great Debate.

I call them the Big 3 because they are easily my top 3 and doubt they will ever be surpassed.   It wasn't a reference to how the fanbase as a whole considers them.

Although I would guess if you polled the entire DT fanbase that SFAM and I&W would definitely make the top 3 and SDOIT would be a candidate for it......  what else would get slotted there?  Awake? FII? TOT?

Meaning, if you took everyone's top 3 and took the most votes for each album.

[bosk1]

From everything I have ever seen and heard, I think Awake and Six Degrees would compete for the #3 spot, and I have no idea which would take it.

[zappafrank2112]

Although I would guess if you polled the entire DT fanbase that SFAM and I&W would definitely make the top 3 and SDOIT would be a candidate for it......  what else would get slotted there?  Awake? FII? TOT?

I would think I&W, Awake, and SFaM would be the top 3, with ToT or maybe Octavarium closing in on #4.

In fact, I'm surprised Awake isn't solidly in there for a lot of people.

I say ToT b/c soooooo many times, I've seen people use it as a comparison point for a style they wished the band would revisit.  Although Octavarium isn't my favorite, the reaction it got during the intro video on the Along for the Ride tour blew me away - I never realized it was so beloved (at least per the Hammerstein Ballroom crowd I was with, heh).

And I've heard enough people talk about how The Glass Prison and The Great Debate don't really do it for them (not to mention "I can't believe they dedicated an entire CD to one song") to lead me to believe that 6DoiT is polarizing enough not to make its way into a widespread "best of."

[erwinrafael]

Personally D/T is my top Dream Theater album, just ahead of Awake and DT.

[Metal_Bandicoot]

For me DoT is the first new Dream Theater release I wasn’t super excited for. To be fair, I was on a major power metal kick a few months prior to the albums release. Unteathered Angel is a snooze fest of a single when you’ve been blasting epic cheese metal in your ears for half a year! I haven’t listened to much prog during that time. I also loved TA. I over played the hell out of The Gift of Music when it was first released, the album even more so. Taking all that into account the singles, minus FITL, didn’t impress me so much. I was worried I wasn’t going to dig DoT

Luckily the album was excellent! I was moved to tears when first listening to Barstool Warrior and At Wits End. I also really loved Viper King. What a banger of a track! Same with S2N! It took about three whole listens of the album for me to be in love with it. I was still weaning off the power metal obsession.

I think most fans would still highly praise DoT regardless if TA was ever released. It sounds like great standard Dream Theater. It’s also the best sounding since MM joined. It’s too soon for me to rank it with the rest of the catalog. I have been listening to it every day still.

[Herrick]

I no longer dislike The Astonishing as much as I did when it first came out. I don't love it either. However, I don't think that has any bearing on why I enjoy Distance Over Time. As much as I love Dream Theater, it wouldn't be the end of the world if they put out two "back to crap" albums. I'm not that desperate for new DT music to the point where I'd fucking force myself to enjoy it