Author Topic: AOC thread  (Read 6433 times)

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #280 on: May 23, 2019, 10:04:14 AM »
Which is cool because I'm not selling it. Some people would certainly care. Some of what she says would even be newsworthy. I'm just saying that she's jerkoff fodder for conservatives who want to rag on the silly liberal, and that's the reason we hear about her as much as we do. That wouldn't bother me so much if they'd just own up to it. You might well be right that she invites it herself, but as I keep saying, who's worse, the loudmouth or the people who hang on to the loudmouth's every word? She's like the god damned rock and roll hall of fame.

Tough call, but who here hangs on to her every word? I certainly do not. I only knew about the overtly sexist thing because bosk1 alluded to it, and I assumed he meant the GoT thing when I googled her name out of mere curiosity. If he was talking about something else, then he'd have to clarify that.

I think that's partly right. She's certainly destructive, but she's not the typical divider, per se. You take somebody like Trump and his objective is to exploit the divide for the benefit of his own side. Liberals will be the ruin of all. Vote Trump. Democrats do the same thing. In the meantime people don't notice that both sides are fucking them. The far left gets it. I don't see who she's looking to divide, honestly. I do see two parties she's looking to burn down, though, and that's not such a bad thing. If somebody you liked were doing it you'd probably agree, wouldn't you?

And here's something you might consider. The people on the far left think they have nothing left to lose. I don't think we're there yet, but I see why they do, and I think that point will definitely come. They're seeing a system that is fucking them and their kids will have it worse. Why shouldn't they want to burn the thing to the ground?

Mostly, yes. but while I am not a fan, I would not go so far as to say I dislike her; I simply do not agree with many of the positions she takes, and think she sticks her foot in her mouth too much. 

As for the left having nothing to lose, I can get on board with that, but I still take the position that centrist, moderate stances are the best way to get things done, but between d-nozzles like Mitch McConnell refusing to work with the Democrats and far lefties like AOC not wanting to budge an inch, it makes for a situation where not a lot will get done.

Offline bosk1

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #281 on: May 23, 2019, 11:00:53 AM »
Which is cool because I'm not selling it. Some people would certainly care. Some of what she says would even be newsworthy. I'm just saying that she's jerkoff fodder for conservatives who want to rag on the silly liberal, and that's the reason we hear about her as much as we do. That wouldn't bother me so much if they'd just own up to it. You might well be right that she invites it herself, but as I keep saying, who's worse, the loudmouth or the people who hang on to the loudmouth's every word? She's like the god damned rock and roll hall of fame.

Tough call, but who here hangs on to her every word? I certainly do not. I only knew about the overtly sexist thing because bosk1 alluded to it, and I assumed he meant the GoT thing when I googled her name out of mere curiosity. If he was talking about something else, then he'd have to clarify that.

Seemed like it was at the top of pretty much EVERY news feed on EVERY site I visited that day.
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Online El Barto

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #282 on: May 23, 2019, 11:04:54 AM »
As for the left having nothing to lose, I can get on board with that, but I still take the position that centrist, moderate stances are the best way to get things done, but between d-nozzles like Mitch McConnell refusing to work with the Democrats and far lefties like AOC not wanting to budge an inch, it makes for a situation where not a lot will get done.
They would say, and of this I think they're absolutely correct with this, that it's centrist policies that got us to where we are. As much as we like to blame extremists on the other side, what we have now is the result of compromise and concession.

Final
   1   2   3   4   T
KC   7   16   7   21   51
LAR   13   10   17   14   54

A whole lot of people thought this was the greatest game they'd ever seen (I did not). Both teams traded small victories the entire time, but neither ever led by very much for very long. The game started with both teams tied and 105 points later ended with one team up by 3. This is what's been happening with the democrats and republicans for 75 years. The Rams won because they only get to play for 60 minutes. Our democracy goes on and on and on while neither side ever really gets to make much of a difference for very long, leaving us +/- a few points here or there. In the meantime we're in a state of decline, so perpetuating this with concession and compromise is essentially arguing about what color to paint the walls while the house burns down with you in it.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #283 on: May 23, 2019, 11:38:10 AM »
Shirley you understand that there's a major difference between the amount of coverage a presidential candidate and a junior congressman get. Do you think the media should cover Trump to the same extent it covers the mayor of Poughkeepsie? One is newsworthy to every single citizen in the united states. AOC matters to 400k Queens residents. Robert G. Rolison will remain unknown no matter how much foolishness he tweets to his 25 (seriously) followers. Their dipshit opinions are normally going to see coverage commensurate to their standing.

But while the general idea is sound, the application is a little suspect.  She's NOT just of importance to 400k Queens residents.  Calling for government - the FEDERAL government - to assume ownership stakes in businesses (no qualifications, or limitations, on that; I've posted about this before) is not limited to "Queens".   And when she's actively one of the voices that is adamently going against the general caucus by outright calling for impeachment (though her boss is on record as recently as today as saying "NYET" to that noise), or when two Presidential candidates (namely Warren and Sanders) are actively, openly and explicitly jockeying for her public endorsement in their campaigns, we're not at all talking about the "Mayor of Poughkeepsie".

And don't call me Shirley. 

Quote
Quote
Game of Thrones was a show where the men were considered far more important than women in everyday life, yet women really thrived.  Dany and Cersei were both told whom to marry, yet both thrived and achieved great power in spite of that.  The Stark women (Catelyn, Sansa, Arya) all kicked ass at various points.  Olenna Tyrell had tons of power during her tenure as well.  A show like that should have been empowering for women, like "wow, did the many female leads do well despite always being considered 3rd class citizens."  But, no, just because a man got the crown at the end, which seemed like a mere formality anyway since the real story was about the others, it was somehow a fail for women?  No way.  See my posts about how the Stark family were really the overall winners of the Game of Thrones, with the final sequence focusing on three people, two women and a man.  To pitch a fit because a male got the crown, while ignoring how much many women overcame incredible odds at many points in the show in getting from a to z, is to ignore the story itself. 
So I really don't have a horse in the race. I'm generally on your side about forced inclusion, and I've only seen two scenes ever of GoT, ever. This does not help your cause, though, buddy.  I'll let one of our more liberal neighbors write a treatise on it, but even I thought it came off as pretty sexist.  :lol

But so what if it was?  Isn't the role of art to reflect and cause us to reflect?   If the response from the Warren's/Ocasio-Cortez's of the world was more measured and interested in dialogue (as to how, not the what) it would be more meaningful.  I don't argue with the "pitching a fit" descriptor, because it didn't take an educated look at things, it took a reactionary, rejectionary look at things, based solely on the outcome.   "She's crazy"?  Fucking men.   "A woman not on the throne"?   Fucking men.  Why not dig in, and point to similarities between the finale and, say, the 2016 election?  Or point to how the best laid plans can go awry for reasons that don't involve gender or sex?  Or perhaps show how gender/sex plays a role even when it doesn't?  There were so many places to go that don't revolve around simply measuring everything based on outcome.

(And by the by, a part of me is almost secretly in favor of the "outcome" approach, because ultimately, the backlash will be resounding.  If you DO look to "outcome only", then as the dust settles after the uproar, it becomes a math problem.   As time goes on, then in any given instance, Jews should have roughly 4% of whatever positions we're talking about.  African Americans, 13%.   Whites, 60%.  Homosexuals, 4%.   Women, 50.5%.  That's not going to play well when making your identity politics pitches to the electorate.  Yet again, another example of the narrow thinking of inexperience and youth, putting all the eggs in the basket of hyperbole with no forethought as to the ramifications of action.)

Online El Barto

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #284 on: May 23, 2019, 12:33:11 PM »
But so what if it was? 
You're asking me? Fuck, I'm mostly on his side here.  :lol
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Isn't the role of art to reflect and cause us to reflect?   If the response from the Warren's/Ocasio-Cortez's of the world was more measured and interested in dialogue (as to how, not the what) it would be more meaningful.  I don't argue with the "pitching a fit" descriptor, because it didn't take an educated look at things, it took a reactionary, rejectionary look at things, based solely on the outcome.   "She's crazy"?  Fucking men.   "A woman not on the throne"?   Fucking men.  Why not dig in, and point to similarities between the finale and, say, the 2016 election?  Or point to how the best laid plans can go awry for reasons that don't involve gender or sex?  Or perhaps show how gender/sex plays a role even when it doesn't?  There were so many places to go that don't revolve around simply measuring everything based on outcome.
As for the why nots, why not read Dostoevsky to 3rd graders? Surely they'd benefit from his wisdom and insight, right? This is akin to Gilibrand using Roe as shorthand for all abortion arguments. Speech is tailored to the intended audience. YOu skip 550 brutal pages of Russian text and use metaphors, similes and the like to give them an important lesson and hope that one day they'll be able to suffer through the whole damn thing. Like you, I'd love to live in a democracy where the electorate is informed enough and capable of understanding a more thoughtful discussion, but alas, here we are. And where do they stop? Does KG phrase her remarks on the legal aspect so that only you and Bosk can understand them, leaving me out? Does she work it to my level? Or does she deliver it to where the most people can get the flavor of it? Does AOC need to spend 3 hours on 74 tweets righting a detailed analysis of sexism in Westeros? As I said, I suspect KG and ACO are both capable of having a far more accurate and meaningful discussion of what they speak about (at least one I'm sure of). They both know how to target their audience of dolts.

By the way, I'm typing up a post regarding opportunity vs outcome goals. It's something I want to spend a bit more time on than my typical flyby replies.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #285 on: May 23, 2019, 04:18:56 PM »
. Our democracy goes on and on and on while neither side ever really gets to make much of a difference for very long, leaving us +/- a few points here or there. In the meantime we're in a state of decline, so perpetuating this with concession and compromise is essentially arguing about what color to paint the walls while the house burns down with you in it.

Okay, but what is the solution?  Neither side is going to let the other completely have their way, so it sounds like we are screwed no matter what. 

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #286 on: May 23, 2019, 05:16:54 PM »
. Our democracy goes on and on and on while neither side ever really gets to make much of a difference for very long, leaving us +/- a few points here or there. In the meantime we're in a state of decline, so perpetuating this with concession and compromise is essentially arguing about what color to paint the walls while the house burns down with you in it.

Okay, but what is the solution?  Neither side is going to let the other completely have their way, so it sounds like we are screwed no matter what.
That's my take, yeah. I'm perfectly happy to let the new left make a bunch of noise and maybe shake a few things up, though. I really don't buy into the pipedreams they throw out, but if nothing else they understand the problem and most of them actually seem to care. Neither mainstream republicans nor democrats to fit that bill. I don't know as AOC actually cares, either. I think Bernie does, though.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #287 on: May 24, 2019, 09:01:03 AM »
But so what if it was? 
You're asking me? Fuck, I'm mostly on his side here.  :lol
Quote
Isn't the role of art to reflect and cause us to reflect?   If the response from the Warren's/Ocasio-Cortez's of the world was more measured and interested in dialogue (as to how, not the what) it would be more meaningful.  I don't argue with the "pitching a fit" descriptor, because it didn't take an educated look at things, it took a reactionary, rejectionary look at things, based solely on the outcome.   "She's crazy"?  Fucking men.   "A woman not on the throne"?   Fucking men.  Why not dig in, and point to similarities between the finale and, say, the 2016 election?  Or point to how the best laid plans can go awry for reasons that don't involve gender or sex?  Or perhaps show how gender/sex plays a role even when it doesn't?  There were so many places to go that don't revolve around simply measuring everything based on outcome.
As for the why nots, why not read Dostoevsky to 3rd graders? Surely they'd benefit from his wisdom and insight, right? This is akin to Gilibrand using Roe as shorthand for all abortion arguments. Speech is tailored to the intended audience. YOu skip 550 brutal pages of Russian text and use metaphors, similes and the like to give them an important lesson and hope that one day they'll be able to suffer through the whole damn thing. Like you, I'd love to live in a democracy where the electorate is informed enough and capable of understanding a more thoughtful discussion, but alas, here we are. And where do they stop? Does KG phrase her remarks on the legal aspect so that only you and Bosk can understand them, leaving me out? Does she work it to my level? Or does she deliver it to where the most people can get the flavor of it? Does AOC need to spend 3 hours on 74 tweets righting a detailed analysis of sexism in Westeros? As I said, I suspect KG and ACO are both capable of having a far more accurate and meaningful discussion of what they speak about (at least one I'm sure of). They both know how to target their audience of dolts.

But all due respect, it's not an appropriate analogy.    The "Dostoevsky to 3rd graders" is part of a bigger program.  Math is a better example; we don't teach multivariable calculus to third graders either, but the curriculum of K through 12 assumes a progression, and what you learn in 3rd grade will be revisited in ever-increasing complexity at least three times before 12th grade.   That's not the case with Gillebrand.  She's throwing it out there to accumulate votes and fuck 'em if they never learn, they voted for me!  And if they didn't, they're deplorable!   (I say that as a sign that this is all related and all a continuum.)  At least the teacher of Dostoevsky will likely at some point say "well, it's more complicated than this, but here's the gist."   Or "for those of you feeling adventurous, you could contemplate the symbolism of St. Petersburg, though that won't be on the test."  That's not the case with Gillebrand.    She's doubling down with other, related messages that are equally as specious, and if you don't agree?  You are engaged in a war on women (read: "you're deplorable", or if you don't like the heavihandedness of that, then "you're immoral").   

The teacher is leading the student.  Gillebrand, et al. is bullying the "student" (the voter).

Offline XJDenton

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #288 on: May 31, 2019, 01:47:59 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/30/aoc-ted-cruz-lobbying

Well would ya look at that. Some bipartisanship.

Offline Harmony

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #289 on: June 20, 2019, 10:59:58 AM »
When is a concentration camp not a concentration camp?  Would a camp by any other name smell as foul?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-says-she-will-never-apologize-blasts-gop-for-focusing-on-concentration-camps-comparison

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #290 on: June 21, 2019, 09:07:28 PM »
She's great, and I hope that her being so visible and aggressive with her opinion inspires a lot of other young left leaning people to run for office.

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1142106638519848960
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 09:12:38 PM by Dave_Manchester »
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #291 on: June 21, 2019, 09:25:24 PM »
LOL one of the replies:

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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #292 on: June 22, 2019, 12:25:34 AM »
I thought this was a good take https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-unimaginable-reality-of-american-concentration-camps  though I expect Dave is not a big fan of this author.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #293 on: June 22, 2019, 04:37:10 AM »
Sounds about right. People don't like to reminded that their own country and own people are capable of horrific things.

LOL one of the replies:


[/quote

Pretty laughable take, indeed.

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #294 on: June 22, 2019, 08:09:24 AM »
Yeah that cartoon is pretty terrible, even as propaganda. The 'AOC' character (angry contorted wetback thrusting her hand into someone's face) misstates her point in order to set up the proper American's (that is, the elderly white character with impeccable posture and an imperturbable expression) MAGA-baiting scripture from the Holy Book of America (In the beginning, the earth was formless and empty. And God said "Let there be America" and it was good). America's border is "the only one in history" that people risk their lives to cross? I guess you could say that if your ignorance of history and geography is near-total. But never mind those pesky details, let's all just repeat the perfectly logical mantra: America can never be guilty of inhumanity because people want to emigrate there. QED I guess.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #295 on: June 22, 2019, 08:19:06 AM »
I think most of us know that the concentration camps have a longer and bigger history that WW2, but I don't think it is unfair to say that whenever someone says the words "concentration camps," most think of Hitler and what went on during WW2, and AOC knows that, which is why she said what she did; she was, once again, going over the top with her words to score political points.  Props to her as those who follow and are fans of her, eat up everything she says with a spoon, but while it is awful what is going on at the border right now, I think most are reasonable and intelligent enough to know that those are not concentration camps based on the widely-thought of definition of the phrase (WW2). 

Trump is a clown and the list of reasons to criticize him is like 495 pages long, but this continuing need to try to make him out as the second coming of Hitler is ridiculous.  The same thing happened in the 00's when many tried to say W. was like Hitler as well.  Are people capable nowadays of criticizing someone without jumping to the most extreme and awful example of the 20th century?

Offline XJDenton

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #296 on: June 22, 2019, 09:21:28 AM »
Camps in Nazi Germany started out on this scale.

Offline axeman90210

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #297 on: June 22, 2019, 09:26:00 AM »
Sorry Kev, but just because they aren't literally gassing crowds of people doesn't mean that we're not currently operating concentration camps. The stories coming out of these places are beyond the pale. 8 year old kids, clothes stained with tears and snot, holding younger children in shifts to comfort them because they won't stop crying. Toddlers shitting their pants because they're not given diapers. I saw a claim (that I will be upfront about not having been able to fact check yet) that the number of kids who have died in our custody is up to 24. And the lawyers for this administration are in court arguing that they shouldn't have to provide kids with soap or toothbrushes or anything more than a cold concrete floor to sleep on. It's a lot easier to tell yourself that we're not running concentration camps because it's not as awful as the worst case of them in human history, but it doesn't change the facts.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #298 on: June 22, 2019, 09:31:23 AM »
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #299 on: June 22, 2019, 10:50:26 AM »
Yeah that cartoon is pretty terrible, even as propaganda.

Political cartoonists are the lowest form of "journalists." There is a line between caricature and insult, and they don't know what it is. We got 8 years of W Bush looking like a chimp, so seeing Ocasio-Cortez exaggerated a bit is rather tame.
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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #300 on: June 22, 2019, 10:54:58 AM »
Political cartoonists are just like any other profession. Great when done well, worthless when done poorly. When they hit, they do a great job. This one, however, was a big miss.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #301 on: June 22, 2019, 11:00:37 AM »
Sorry Kev, but just because they aren't literally gassing crowds of people doesn't mean that we're not currently operating concentration camps. The stories coming out of these places are beyond the pale. 8 year old kids, clothes stained with tears and snot, holding younger children in shifts to comfort them because they won't stop crying. Toddlers shitting their pants because they're not given diapers. I saw a claim (that I will be upfront about not having been able to fact check yet) that the number of kids who have died in our custody is up to 24. And the lawyers for this administration are in court arguing that they shouldn't have to provide kids with soap or toothbrushes or anything more than a cold concrete floor to sleep on. It's a lot easier to tell yourself that we're not running concentration camps because it's not as awful as the worst case of them in human history, but it doesn't change the facts.

Just a reminder that I did say above that what is going on at the border is awful, so I am in total agreement on that.  I just think there are better and more accurate ways to discuss the awfulness of what is going on right now than trivializing the Holocaust (which it is) and comparing Trump to Hitler.

And make no mistake about it that rhetoric like this is why so many people dislike and do not trust politicians.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #302 on: June 22, 2019, 11:08:41 AM »
Sorry Kev, but just because they aren't literally gassing crowds of people doesn't mean that we're not currently operating concentration camps. The stories coming out of these places are beyond the pale. 8 year old kids, clothes stained with tears and snot, holding younger children in shifts to comfort them because they won't stop crying. Toddlers shitting their pants because they're not given diapers. I saw a claim (that I will be upfront about not having been able to fact check yet) that the number of kids who have died in our custody is up to 24. And the lawyers for this administration are in court arguing that they shouldn't have to provide kids with soap or toothbrushes or anything more than a cold concrete floor to sleep on. It's a lot easier to tell yourself that we're not running concentration camps because it's not as awful as the worst case of them in human history, but it doesn't change the facts.

Just a reminder that I did say above that what is going on at the border is awful, so I am in total agreement on that.  I just think there are better and more accurate ways to discuss the awfulness of what is going on right now than trivializing the Holocaust (which it is) and comparing Trump to Hitler.


But it's not trivializing the holocaust, that's the whole point people have been making. Tell you what though I think making a fuss about using the the term concentation camp IS trivialzing what's happenining down there. 

edit: from the vox piece Dave posted
Quote
In memory of the 6 million Jews who perished because they were considered less human, I will not accept my government treating migrants like animals. And as the daughter of a Soviet Jewish refugee, I will not accept the criminalization of stateless people. Perpetrators depend on complacency, on our inability to care for people unlike ourselves. No person is illegal, or a pest to be exterminated. If you don’t like the term concentration camp, help close them.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 11:14:54 AM by XeRocks81 »

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #303 on: June 22, 2019, 11:16:34 AM »
Sorry Kev, but just because they aren't literally gassing crowds of people doesn't mean that we're not currently operating concentration camps. The stories coming out of these places are beyond the pale. 8 year old kids, clothes stained with tears and snot, holding younger children in shifts to comfort them because they won't stop crying. Toddlers shitting their pants because they're not given diapers. I saw a claim (that I will be upfront about not having been able to fact check yet) that the number of kids who have died in our custody is up to 24. And the lawyers for this administration are in court arguing that they shouldn't have to provide kids with soap or toothbrushes or anything more than a cold concrete floor to sleep on. It's a lot easier to tell yourself that we're not running concentration camps because it's not as awful as the worst case of them in human history, but it doesn't change the facts.

Just a reminder that I did say above that what is going on at the border is awful, so I am in total agreement on that.  I just think there are better and more accurate ways to discuss the awfulness of what is going on right now than trivializing the Holocaust (which it is) and comparing Trump to Hitler.


But it's not trivializing the holocaust, that's the whole point people have been making. Tell you what though I think making a fuss about using the the term concentation camp IS trivialzing what's happenining down there.

Which is entirely the tactic. Instead of talking about the conditions in the camps where people are concentrated, the Murdoch media is pushing out article after article about what a shrill drama queen AOC is. Here's one:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aocs-concentration-camps-label-was-just-tip-of-the-iceberg-here-are-some-of-her-most-controversial-moments

And another...

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-says-she-will-never-apologize-blasts-gop-for-focusing-on-concentration-camps-comparison

And another...

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/nbc-chuck-todd-aoc-concentration-camp-remarks

Day after day, hour after hour, their relentless creation of Emmanuel Goldstein continues.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #304 on: June 22, 2019, 11:21:36 AM »
But it's not trivializing the holocaust, that's the whole point people have been making. Tell you what though I think making a fuss about using the the term concentration camp IS trivializing what's happenining down there.

But we are completely reminded nowadays that "words matter" so I don't feel too bad about her being called to task for her word choice.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #305 on: June 22, 2019, 11:25:40 AM »
They do. Which is why people should describe concentration camps as such.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #306 on: June 22, 2019, 11:29:30 AM »
But we are completely reminded nowadays that "words matter" so I don't feel too bad about her being called to task for her word choice.

Well said.


But it's not trivializing the holocaust, that's the whole point people have been making. Tell you what though I think making a fuss about using the the term concentation camp IS trivialzing what's happenining down there. 

Okay, then let's look at this way: AOC herself said, "Concentration camps are considered by experts as 'the mass detention of civilians without trial,'" which Obama was guilty of as well, but on a smaller scale.  Are we now going to say that Obama put children in concentration camps?

A quick google search brought this up: https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-barack-obama-fort-sill-former-japanese-internment-camp-1443785

Offline XJDenton

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #307 on: June 22, 2019, 11:30:57 AM »
Yes.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #308 on: June 22, 2019, 11:44:24 AM »
It's been said from the beginning that the practice also occured under Obama, I don't have a problem with laying blame at the feet of his administration too but he's not in charge right now.

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #309 on: June 22, 2019, 11:44:43 AM »
We aren't "detaining" them in the same way the Jews were rounded up, or the Japanese were interned during WW2. We are detaining them because our borders our overwhelmed and ill-equipped to meet the needs of the mass influx of those seeing a better life free health care, housing, EBT cards, etc...

It's been said from the beginning that the practice also occured under Obama....

Curious there was no public and/or media-driven outrage then. 
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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #310 on: June 22, 2019, 11:45:46 AM »
We aren't "detaining" them in the same way the Jews were rounded up, or the Japanese were interned during WW2. We are detaining them because our borders our overwhelmed and ill-equipped to meet the needs of the mass influx of those seeing a better life free health care, housing, EBT cards, etc...

I'm not sure that matters to be honest.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #311 on: June 22, 2019, 12:23:42 PM »
We aren't "detaining" them in the same way the Jews were rounded up, or the Japanese were interned during WW2. We are detaining them because our borders our overwhelmed and ill-equipped to meet the needs of the mass influx of those seeing a better life free health care, housing, EBT cards, etc...

It's been said from the beginning that the practice also occured under Obama....

Curious there was no public and/or media-driven outrage then.

I don't deny the Obabma administration caught a pass on some stuff, they still have a a record of the most deportations after all,  but the Trump admin instituted a zero tolerance policy that much harsher than what the previous administation had been doing so they are rewriting history a little bit when they pin the blame on Obama.  found this info here : https://www.vox.com/2019/6/21/18700575/trump-family-separation-policy-obama-time-telemundo and here: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/enterthefray/la-ol-trump-border-obama-family-separations-20190409-story.html

Quote
During the Obama administration, family separations were rare and predicated upon two conditions: whether border officials felt the parents or guardians posed a threat to the children, or whether the adults, under U.S. immigration law, had to be detained based on prior criminal convictions.

Offline Harmony

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #312 on: June 22, 2019, 03:41:16 PM »
For the more squeamish among us how about instead of “concentration camps” we just refer to it as “human rights abuses”?  Everyone feel better now? 

Also consider this. It isn’t like we don’t have the resources to provide blankets, cots, diapers, clothing, and fucking tooth brushes. We most certainly do. This abuse and neglect of infants, toddlers, and children is designed to be purely punitive.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #313 on: June 24, 2019, 02:00:03 PM »
Sorry Kev, but just because they aren't literally gassing crowds of people doesn't mean that we're not currently operating concentration camps. The stories coming out of these places are beyond the pale. 8 year old kids, clothes stained with tears and snot, holding younger children in shifts to comfort them because they won't stop crying. Toddlers shitting their pants because they're not given diapers. I saw a claim (that I will be upfront about not having been able to fact check yet) that the number of kids who have died in our custody is up to 24. And the lawyers for this administration are in court arguing that they shouldn't have to provide kids with soap or toothbrushes or anything more than a cold concrete floor to sleep on. It's a lot easier to tell yourself that we're not running concentration camps because it's not as awful as the worst case of them in human history, but it doesn't change the facts.

Just a reminder that I did say above that what is going on at the border is awful, so I am in total agreement on that.  I just think there are better and more accurate ways to discuss the awfulness of what is going on right now than trivializing the Holocaust (which it is) and comparing Trump to Hitler.


But it's not trivializing the holocaust, that's the whole point people have been making. Tell you what though I think making a fuss about using the the term concentation camp IS trivialzing what's happenining down there. 

edit: from the vox piece Dave posted
Quote
In memory of the 6 million Jews who perished because they were considered less human, I will not accept my government treating migrants like animals. And as the daughter of a Soviet Jewish refugee, I will not accept the criminalization of stateless people. Perpetrators depend on complacency, on our inability to care for people unlike ourselves. No person is illegal, or a pest to be exterminated. If you don’t like the term concentration camp, help close them.

The irony of some - who seem to be predominantly on the left - now telling us that we shouldn't be offended, after decades of "it's not your place to decide whether [special interest] is offended" notwithstanding, it all boils down to partisanship.   Just recognize it for what it is.   When Trump exaggerates and lies, it's the end of democracy as we know it (or a wet dream for drooling, bigoted Trump SupportersTM).  When Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez exaggerates and lies, it's fresh revolution from our next generation of freedom fighters (or the desperate tools necessary to hopefully avoid that aforementioned end of democracy as we know it).   

I strongly disagree with her factually - shitting a diaper or missing a toothbrush is not at all the same thing, even if still wrong - but she's got people talking about her cause.    She'll be awarded with airtime and publicity for her cause, and will thus be encouraged to take ever coarser, ever more controversial stances and so the cycle continues. 

Offline axeman90210

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Re: AOC thread
« Reply #314 on: June 24, 2019, 02:57:46 PM »
This is not about whether people should be offended, it's about whether or not what she said is factually correct, and it is. Nazi Germany was obviously the worst instance of concentration camps in the history of humankind, and nobody is saying that what is happening along the southern border right now is in any way on the same level as that. But there have been other instances of concentration camps throughout history, both before and after WWII and both here and abroad, and I don't see how you can argue that the term doesn't apply according to its general definition. To argue otherwise would be like arguing that the Boston Marathon bombing wasn't a terrorist attack because when people hear terrorist attack they immediately think of September 11th and that was way worse than what happened in Boston.
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