Author Topic: Sound quality of new D/T  (Read 4888 times)

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Offline Dedalus

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2019, 09:38:31 AM »
The DR database is a really cruddy measurement. All it does is calculate the peak volume minus the average volume. So, FII has a lot of dynamic variance, but it never extremely peaks, and thus gets a low DR.

That's a good start.

It's been a while since I've realized that audiophilia and science aren't good friends. A lot of "I think", "I feel", "I perceive a difference" and little scientific evidence.
I'll add this to the list: we have a DR measure that is not so good at measuring ..... dynamics. Wonderful!  :lol

Offline Thoughtspart3

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2019, 01:57:42 PM »
The DR database is a really cruddy measurement. All it does is calculate the peak volume minus the average volume. So, FII has a lot of dynamic variance, but it never extremely peaks, and thus gets a low DR.

That's a good start.

It's been a while since I've realized that audiophilia and science aren't good friends. A lot of "I think", "I feel", "I perceive a difference" and little scientific evidence.
I'll add this to the list: we have a DR measure that is not so good at measuring ..... dynamics. Wonderful!  :lol

No, the DR range does make a difference in most instances. I think it is fair to say though that it is not the ONLY factor.  I don't know if FII is the best comparison because it is so different from later albums. Much more variation in the songs themselves and more mellow sections / songs.  This makes the constant high compression less noticeable. I remastered FII and it sounds better with more dynamics restored.

Offline Dedalus

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2019, 08:16:26 PM »
The DR database is a really cruddy measurement. All it does is calculate the peak volume minus the average volume. So, FII has a lot of dynamic variance, but it never extremely peaks, and thus gets a low DR.

That's a good start.

It's been a while since I've realized that audiophilia and science aren't good friends. A lot of "I think", "I feel", "I perceive a difference" and little scientific evidence.
I'll add this to the list: we have a DR measure that is not so good at measuring ..... dynamics. Wonderful!  :lol

No, the DR range does make a difference in most instances. I think it is fair to say though that it is not the ONLY factor.  I don't know if FII is the best comparison because it is so different from later albums. Much more variation in the songs themselves and more mellow sections / songs.  This makes the constant high compression less noticeable. I remastered FII and it sounds better with more dynamics restored.

You can change FII for Haken -Vector or PoS - In The Passing Light of Day or Soa - Psychotic Symphony or any Metal Allegiance album or any Flying Colors album or any Periphery album etc. All these albums have in common low average DR scores.

But I think you're right on bolded part.

Offline Groundhog

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2019, 11:35:15 PM »
The DR database is a really cruddy measurement. All it does is calculate the peak volume minus the average volume. So, FII has a lot of dynamic variance, but it never extremely peaks, and thus gets a low DR.

That's a good start.

It's been a while since I've realized that audiophilia and science aren't good friends. A lot of "I think", "I feel", "I perceive a difference" and little scientific evidence.
I'll add this to the list: we have a DR measure that is not so good at measuring ..... dynamics. Wonderful!  :lol

No, the DR range does make a difference in most instances. I think it is fair to say though that it is not the ONLY factor.  I don't know if FII is the best comparison because it is so different from later albums. Much more variation in the songs themselves and more mellow sections / songs.  This makes the constant high compression less noticeable. I remastered FII and it sounds better with more dynamics restored.

You can change FII for Haken -Vector or PoS - In The Passing Light of Day or Soa - Psychotic Symphony or any Metal Allegiance album or any Flying Colors album or any Periphery album etc. All these albums have in common low average DR scores.

But I think you're right on bolded part.

Falling into infinity sounds surprisingly good for DR6, but even that sounds better on the vinyl because of better dynamic range. I don't agree with the albums you mentioned at least with the ones I've heard. I can't stand the debut album of Flying Colors because of the loudness. It just sounds harsh. The True colors release with DR8 sounds considerably better that the original release with DR6. Same thing with PoS - Passing light of day. Yes, it is a lot better than the previous albums, but still way too compressed to actually sound good.  And based on what I've heard from Periphery their albums are really loud and would also sound a lot better with better DR. FII even in digital sounds a lot better than any of these albums.

Yes, DR is not the only factor and FII proves that. But albums like that are far and between. To me there is a clear correlation with DR and sound quality. Albums under DR8 rarely sound good to me.

Do I recall correctly? Was FII recorded on analog tape?

Offline PixelDream

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2019, 01:00:30 AM »
DoT could’ve used some breathing room in the mastering department but at least the sounds are there this time! Badass, full sounding DT record.
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Offline goo-goo

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2019, 07:35:32 AM »
I believe FII was recorded on tape. IIRC, Six Degrees was the last DT album recorded on tape, which still sounds warmer than the newer stuff.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2019, 10:11:37 AM »
For those who own the Artbook, I don't know if you've noticed, but the Instrumental mixes of the album are actually much less compressed than the album itself.
They're not quite as dynamic as the Blu-Ray 2.0 mix, but even from a casual glance at the wave forms, the difference is very noticeable.
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Offline ytserush

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2019, 08:11:35 PM »

When you are an audiophile, you can easily say, "How could they take such wonderful music and compress it so much? It's criminal," but the simple truth is that the vast majority of music consumers are not audiophiles, and Dream Theater caters to more than just a hardcore niche demographic. Funny enough, they just posted on Facebook, proclaiming that Distance Over Time got over 10 million streams on Spotify. They're obviously excited by this figure, and it does prove that a lot of people listen to them on Spotify, for better or for worse. The bottom line is, they are a commercial band and they're catering to a larger demographic than just people with big, expensive hi-fi systems, studio monitors, and headphones.

I think the fact that they're releasing their music on vinyl, and in several other formats on the Blu-Ray is proof that they do want to appease the demographic that really cares about dynamics and sound quality, but the album itself, its standard master that appears on the CD and on streaming and download services, that's for the common consumer and it has to accommodate people who are going to be streaming it on their smartphone, while traversing noisy places. All I'm saying is that the way it's been mastered, I think, is completely justified based on that reasoning.

Unfortunately, you are right. I can't really listen to this more than once at a time (even though it's somewhat short by Dream Theater standards) I get ear fatigued because the nearly everything on the CD is at the same level.  I really want to listen to this more than once at a time.

It's unfortunate for me because I think this is a very inspired album (aside from some vocal things that I suppose are modus operandi at this point.)

Offline ytserush

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2019, 08:21:00 PM »
The DR database is a really cruddy measurement. All it does is calculate the peak volume minus the average volume. So, FII has a lot of dynamic variance, but it never extremely peaks, and thus gets a low DR.

I wouldn't know.  I know DR is popular with many in the audiophile crowd (Which I suppose I am one to some extent) but I only go by what I hear when I pop the CD in my CD player. There's so much cool stuff going on  musically with this record but it's all at the same level and it's hard to listen to what's going on because there's not a lot of separation on instruments.  Jordan is on fire on this record but it's very difficult to focus on any one thing without being clouded by something else.

A lot of this stuff should be cleared up live.

Offline ytserush

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2019, 08:25:05 PM »
For those who own the Artbook, I don't know if you've noticed, but the Instrumental mixes of the album are actually much less compressed than the album itself.
They're not quite as dynamic as the Blu-Ray 2.0 mix, but even from a casual glance at the wave forms, the difference is very noticeable.

I have not test driven the instrumental disc yet. I wanted to get used to the album as it was intended to be. I thought there might be an improvement. I might try the other formats this weekend and see if that improves things for me.

Offline Dedalus

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2019, 09:29:02 PM »

Falling into infinity sounds surprisingly good for DR6, but even that sounds better on the vinyl because of better dynamic range. I don't agree with the albums you mentioned at least with the ones I've heard. I can't stand the debut album of Flying Colors because of the loudness. It just sounds harsh. The True colors release with DR8 sounds considerably better that the original release with DR6. Same thing with PoS - Passing light of day. Yes, it is a lot better than the previous albums, but still way too compressed to actually sound good.  And based on what I've heard from Periphery their albums are really loud and would also sound a lot better with better DR. FII even in digital sounds a lot better than any of these albums.

Yes, DR is not the only factor and FII proves that. But albums like that are far and between. To me there is a clear correlation with DR and sound quality. Albums under DR8 rarely sound good to me.

Do I recall correctly? Was FII recorded on analog tape?

Well, I just decided to choose recent albums with low DR that were well received (understand: no complaints about the sound). I don't remember a lot of people complaining about the sound of Psychotic Symphony or In the Passing Light of Day. In some cases the album was praised for having a great sound (Vector).

My point has always been: why does the complaint happen in some cases and not in all of them?

Actually I think it's a sum of reasons:

- Physical and technical factors, such as DR.

- Particularities of each album.

- Individual auditory perception (real and imaginary ones)

- Herd behavior


Offline dparrott

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2019, 01:27:41 AM »
I can see the digital files being brickwalled, but the CD shouldn't be.  I doubt people are still walking around with Discmans or having a multi-CD player that shuffles songs on multiple discs.  And even if there are, they can change the volume.
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Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2019, 05:15:48 AM »
nothing should ever be brickwalled. Nothing. Sadly almost everything is nowadays.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2019, 07:11:14 AM »
The DR database is a really cruddy measurement. All it does is calculate the peak volume minus the average volume. So, FII has a lot of dynamic variance, but it never extremely peaks, and thus gets a low DR.

I think the DR database is a useful guide, but I would agree that is not the end-all be-all that some make it out to be when it comes to sound quality.

Offline Thoughtspart3

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2019, 08:37:12 PM »
I find the DR database very helpful.  It helps when there are multiple releases.  You can pick the one with the best DR.

Preserving dynamic rage is important. That is the way the music sounds live.  In fact most sounds you hear have dynamic range.  The only sound that doesn't is white noise.  So, when you take out the dynamic range you are not hearing the sounds the way they actually are.

A sound wave is like waves on the ocean.  It has peaks and valleys that you can feel and your ear senses.  When you flatten all the sounds through compression it is like an ocean with no waves.  It is flat and boring. You can not feel the peak and valley of the sound wave. It is subtle but it affects the listening experience.

Offline Dedalus

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2019, 08:52:48 PM »
You all canl be right. Makes sense.
But I still have doubts about the limits of "reality" and the reveries of audiophilia. To what extent it is not something like the difference between MP3, Wav, etc., which people can't distinguish (at least most of them - yes, it includes most audiophiles).

Double blind tests!  :biggrin:
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 09:12:20 PM by Dedalus »

Offline Groundhog

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2019, 01:25:48 PM »

Falling into infinity sounds surprisingly good for DR6, but even that sounds better on the vinyl because of better dynamic range. I don't agree with the albums you mentioned at least with the ones I've heard. I can't stand the debut album of Flying Colors because of the loudness. It just sounds harsh. The True colors release with DR8 sounds considerably better that the original release with DR6. Same thing with PoS - Passing light of day. Yes, it is a lot better than the previous albums, but still way too compressed to actually sound good.  And based on what I've heard from Periphery their albums are really loud and would also sound a lot better with better DR. FII even in digital sounds a lot better than any of these albums.

Yes, DR is not the only factor and FII proves that. But albums like that are far and between. To me there is a clear correlation with DR and sound quality. Albums under DR8 rarely sound good to me.

Do I recall correctly? Was FII recorded on analog tape?

Well, I just decided to choose recent albums with low DR that were well received (understand: no complaints about the sound). I don't remember a lot of people complaining about the sound of Psychotic Symphony or In the Passing Light of Day. In some cases the album was praised for having a great sound (Vector).

My point has always been: why does the complaint happen in some cases and not in all of them?

Actually I think it's a sum of reasons:

- Physical and technical factors, such as DR.

- Particularities of each album.

- Individual auditory perception (real and imaginary ones)

- Herd behavior

That's fair and I get that. I think that people have gotten so accustomed to low DR sound and that's what they are usually comparing the sound of different albums. So when something, in low DR, sounds better than average it will be received better and thought of a good sounding album. From what I've heard from Periphery they seem to have better than average sound within the confines of low DR. The way I see that is that they've just managed to have less negative side effects of dynamic range compression than usual. So to me it's more about damage control rather than sounding as good as possible.

I agree that the final sound on the album is combination of different things (recording, production, mixing, the format of the album, the system that the album is listened to, etc), but dynamic range in my opinion is the factor that sets the upper limit on how good the album can sound. Even if everything else is great from recording, production and mixing it cannot sound great if the dynamic range is over compressed.

You all canl be right. Makes sense.
But I still have doubts about the limits of "reality" and the reveries of audiophilia. To what extent it is not something like the difference between MP3, Wav, etc., which people can't distinguish (at least most of them - yes, it includes most audiophiles).

Double blind tests!  :biggrin:

I claim that I can hear difference between MP3, FLAC, CD etc., but in some cases the difference between a good MP3 and CD quality can be really hard to distinguish. You need to have a sound system that can produce a good sound stage if you want to hear the difference between a good mp3 and cd quality. I prefer to listen to in CD quality, but I would rather have 320kbps MP3 with good dynamic range than a hi-res file with low DR. The difference that a lack of dynamic range does is in whole another level than that of the formats.

The reason why I am so obsessed with dynamic range is that I really cannot enjoy music with low DR properly. I know that I am way more sensitive to this than most people. I have friends that also think that music should be dynamic, but they can enjoy albums with low DR and it does not bother them nearly as much as it bothers me. I have a really good sound system at home, but I do most of my listening in my car nowadays as with family and children it's hard to find the time to enjoy music at home. Even in car I prefer the more dynamic sound. When listening to album with low DR it only takes three to four songs when I get the need to lower the volume and after couple of songs I need to lower the volume again. My ears tire just just like as I was exposed to noise. So listening through an album, no matter how good musically, can be really tiring to my ears. With dynamic albums I don't have this problem. Actually the opposite happens I get the feel to turn up the volume and I don't have a problem of blasting out an album or two.

I've heard an sound engineer comparing the dynamic range of Metallica Death Magnetic and some Arctic Monkeys album to a vacuum cleaner. He had actually measured the dynamics of the sound of a vacuum cleaner and it was more dynamic than those albums.  :lol

Offline Thoughtspart3

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2019, 05:36:26 PM »

[/quote]

I claim that I can hear difference between MP3, FLAC, CD etc., but in some cases the difference between a good MP3 and CD quality can be really hard to distinguish. You need to have a sound system that can produce a good sound stage if you want to hear the difference between a good mp3 and cd quality. I prefer to listen to in CD quality, but I would rather have 320kbps MP3 with good dynamic range than a hi-res file with low DR. The difference that a lack of dynamic range does is in whole another level than that of the formats.

The reason why I am so obsessed with dynamic range is that I really cannot enjoy music with low DR properly. I know that I am way more sensitive to this than most people. I have friends that also think that music should be dynamic, but they can enjoy albums with low DR and it does not bother them nearly as much as it bothers me. I have a really good sound system at home, but I do most of my listening in my car nowadays as with family and children it's hard to find the time to enjoy music at home. Even in car I prefer the more dynamic sound. When listening to album with low DR it only takes three to four songs when I get the need to lower the volume and after couple of songs I need to lower the volume again. My ears tire just just like as I was exposed to noise. So listening through an album, no matter how good musically, can be really tiring to my ears. With dynamic albums I don't have this problem. Actually the opposite happens I get the feel to turn up the volume and I don't have a problem of blasting out an album or two.

I've heard an sound engineer comparing the dynamic range of Metallica Death Magnetic and some Arctic Monkeys album to a vacuum cleaner. He had actually measured the dynamics of the sound of a vacuum cleaner and it was more dynamic than those albums.  :lol
[/quote]

I am the same way.  After awhile I have to stop listening. 

That is hilarious about the vacuum cleaner.   :rollin

Offline Thoughtspart3

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2019, 05:38:53 PM »
You all canl be right. Makes sense.
But I still have doubts about the limits of "reality" and the reveries of audiophilia. To what extent it is not something like the difference between MP3, Wav, etc., which people can't distinguish (at least most of them - yes, it includes most audiophiles).

Double blind tests!  :biggrin:

It is a much bigger difference.  I can actually listen to a new album and tell pretty quickly when it is heavily compressed.

On the positive side I heard the first tracks from the new Neal Morse Band release The Great Adventure and it sounded very good.  I though the dynamic range was improved and sure enough it was.

Offline Dedalus

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2019, 09:04:30 PM »
I definitely don't want to sound in a negative way, but I'll take the risk.

I still don't have a final opinion so formed about how far DR's impact on music is. I think you're probably more certain than I am. But I'm  definitely REALLY skeptical with everything involving audiophilia

That's why I mentioned the WAV, FLAC, MP3, etc. files. I'm fully convinced that people can't differentiate them. Some may, but are rare. Outliers. I'm well acquainted that MANY people say they can. Whenever this subject is discussed, at least half of the people say that. It is not difficult to make this statement. It's difficult to actually achieve. And when I say that it's from an absolutely scientific point of view. I'm sure many people "differentiate" the files, but if we test them rigorously, they will fail (for the most part, I have no doubt). With whatever equipment they choose. Placebo effect. What's more, everyone wants to be on the "special side".


Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2019, 11:02:02 PM »
The files I mostly listen to are the ones I purchased from iTunes in m4a format which are "mastered for iTunes". I remember that Apple undertook this program because just using the same master used for CDs did not sound good on iTunes. I wonder if they indeed used a different master for D/T for this format.

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2019, 04:50:06 AM »
I listened to all of Octavarium and d/t last night which was alot of fun!  I love both albums but d/t sounds miles better as far as production goes. It's just so much cleaner and the guitar tone has way more punch.
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Offline PixelDream

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2019, 08:08:21 AM »
I listened to all of Octavarium and d/t last night which was alot of fun!  I love both albums but d/t sounds miles better as far as production goes. It's just so much cleaner and the guitar tone has way more punch.

I wouldn't say miles better..? Just a matter of taste I'd say in this case. I could argue that the drums on 8VM sound a little bit more natural and that the overall production is less 'smashed'. But anyway, they both sound good.
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Offline JLa

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2019, 02:21:48 PM »
I think it sounds good. No fancy vocabulary from me, I like how it sounds. Streaming via Spotify, to my phone, using bluetooth headphones.  :lol

Although.. I put on Awake regularly, and the sound on that is just ... brilliant. So much more dynamic, the snare is crisp, I can hear every instrument clearly.. The 90's aren't coming back but I don't get why they couldn't keep recording albums like that.

Offline aglenn01

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2019, 05:15:20 PM »
I think it sounds good. No fancy vocabulary from me, I like how it sounds. Streaming via Spotify, to my phone, using bluetooth headphones.  :lol

Although.. I put on Awake regularly, and the sound on that is just ... brilliant. So much more dynamic, the snare is crisp, I can hear every instrument clearly.. The 90's aren't coming back but I don't get why they couldn't keep recording albums like that.

This is exactly what I am stating with my initial post. Record from 25 years ago sounds great. We have come so far technologically in that period of time, yet somehow nobody makes a record that sounds as good as a record from a quarter century ago?!?!

Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2019, 09:37:45 PM »
Honestly, most of the mixes and masters from the Mangini era have been good, or at the very least fine. ADToE gives every instrument ample room to breathe, nothing is stepping on each other's toes, and the mastering isn't classical levels of quiet where you have to turn the volume up to max to hear the slow movement and then someone freaking coughs and your house explodes from the sudden jump in volume and it's not painfully loud either. The Astonishing is in a similar situation. D/T tends to push Rudess a bit back in the mix, sure, but it doesn't have any problems outside of that. DT12, on the other hand, is loud. Very loud. Things are constantly fighting each other for attention, Rudess is pushed back in the mix again, and the album is almost painful to listen to it's so loud. DT12 has some issues in its mix, and it probably has the worst mastering job out of any DT album.

Now let's break some of the common complaints about poorly mixed and mastered albums:

1. Why Are Albums So Loud These Days?

First off, I want to clarify that albums being too hot is mostly a fault of the mastering, not the mixing. The mixing, arrangement, composition, and recording all play a role in the dynamics, but most of the problems arise from mastering.

It's basically common knowledge that songs are on the whole, getting louder. While a lot of the complaints are probably exaggerated (not every song is completely brickwalled, and even most loud recordings tend to have a bit of dynamics), the claims aren't completely unfounded. The levels of recordings from the 20s to the 40s tended to be mostly around -15db, which began to steadily increase from the 50s to the 80s, and then accelerated during the 90s and exploded during the 00s, where it's stayed. Songs now tend to hover around -5db, and those hitting as low as -15db are very rare (still, those at 0db are even rarer). [1]*

Now why did these jumps occur?

Well, these three movements coincide with three moments in music history: the explosion of rock'n'roll in the 50s, the adoption of the CD in the late 80s, and the advent of streaming and digital files in the 00s. Rock'n'roll pushed the limits of what was considered acceptable levels of noise and volume, especially with its introduction of the distorted guitar and louder drum and vocal styles. Around this time, the amplifier, microphone, and 45rpm record were all being introduced into the music industry, which allowed greater dynamic heights to be reached. [2] It also doesn't help that things like song length and placement would affect the dynamics, bass frequency levels, and speed of the song. [3]

The second of these three jumps happens in the 80s, when the Compact Disc started making waves in the music industry. The Compact Disc had a unique advantage over the vinyl record and cassette: it allowed for a much greater dynamic range than ever before. It could go as quiet as it wants and as loud as it wants. This also coincided, interestingly enough, with the birth of grunge and the rise of metal, which are two genres known for being loud.

The third of these jumps happens in the 00s, with the universal acceptance of the CD as the go-to form of music distribution and (as erwinrafael pointed out) the advent of streaming and digital files. The elimination of giant leaps in dynamic ranges makes for a smoother listening experience when shuffling between songs by different artists and is part of the reason why every music service has some sort of audio compression applied automatically to everything uploaded. I can attest from personal experience that it's really annoying to have to turn the volume WAY up for a classical piece and then get deafened by a Dream Theater or Taylor Swift song (or by another part of that classical piece). One of the things to note is that dynamic levels haven't just gotten louder, they've gotten more homogeneous too. Almost every song tends to hit around the -10db to -5db range, where as in the 20-40s it was anything goes really.

Now, the question is, why have things gotten louder? The ability for recorded music to get quieter has also increased in the last 30 years. Well, there's two phenomenon at play here: 1) as mentioned previously, the homogenization of dynamics to fit streaming culture and 2) the fact that loud music sounds better to us. [3] Radio stations, streaming apps/sites/whatever, digital music stores, and record companies all want to take advantage of this phenomenon and ensure their product is going to sell. It's also why most live amateur DJ sets usually end up with blown out stage monitors.

However, an interesting peculiarity is that this decade is actually slightly QUIETER than the one that came before it. It's only by a bout 1 or 2db or so, but it's still worth mentioning. Weird, huh? And, as an aside, songs have actually gotten longer over time too!

*Yes I know this is a chart on reddit, but they DO cite their sources here, which I checked out and they are legit.

[2] Bogdanov, Vladimir, et al. All Music Guide to Rock the Definitive Guide to Rock, Pop and Soul. Backbeat Books, 2002.
[3] Gray, Kevin. “PRODUCING GREAT SOUNDING PHONOGRAPH RECORDS (or Why Records Don’t Always Sound Like the Master Tape).” Record Technology Incorporated, 3 May 1997, recordtech.com/prodsounds.htm.
[4] Blesser, Barry. “The Seductive (Yet Destructive) Appeal of Loud Music.” EContact!, no. 9.4, June 2007.

2. Why does the song sound muddy and cluttered?

This actually isn't the master's fault! This can arise from poor composition, arrangement, or mixing.

1) Composition: probably the rarest source for this problem in modern music. One of the biggest things you learn about in music school is counterpoint, which according to Wikipedia "...is the relationship between voices that are harmonically interdependent (polyphony) yet independent in rhythm and contour." [5] Basically, it's like how Iron Man is his own character, but he comes to form a part of the Avengers. He is simultaneously his own independent character and "a part of a much bigger universe". How does this concept relate to something sounding muddy and cluttered? Well, it could be that the song has too many distinct melodic voices occurring at the same time, or there's a lot of similar but not identical rhythms, or that the melodic voices are written in a way that makes them less independent of each other. Modern rock/pop/dance/rap/metal is not very contrapuntal, however, so it's not that big of an issue most likely. In metal, however, poor rhythmic layering is probably the biggest culprit! Here's a good explanation of rhythmic layering using Gourmet Race from Kirby Super Star as an example.

2) Arrangement: more common than you think! There are a number of ways in which arranging can make a song sound muddy. The first is related to the harmonic series. Humans (that's us!) have trouble distinguishing frequencies and pitches at the extremes of pitch. So we have a harder time parsing out two separate "voices" (a fancy term for a unique part of an instrument) when they're really low or really high. That's why you'll frequently see orchestration books recommending that you keep all the crazy contrapuntal stuff in the middle-low (the "tenor" voices) or middle ("alto") or middle-high (usually the "soprano", but that can leap up into the high/stratosphere) rather than in the extremes, especially the low parts. If you have the bass drum doing its own thing, the bass guitar doing its own thing, and two low rhythm guitars doing their own things, it's going to be hard to hear it as anything other than mush. I reference this as an example because I remember hearing a mediocre prog metal song not too long ago that did this exact thing. I can't remember what song it is, because it failed to grasp my attention.

It could also be that the arrangement is too "bottom heavy", where's there's a lot of stuff going on in the low end and it ends up drowning out the middle and higher parts. The Enemy Inside is a really good example of this, where the T H I C C guitar and bass end up stepping on the keyboard and vocal's toes during the choruses. The main part of Blind Guardian's The Ninth Wave (and, to a lesser extent, And Then There Was Silence) also has this problem.

Finally, and this is related to mixing, the dynamics might be bad for a particular section or song or whatever. By this I mean there's no sense of priorities in the song. Everything is constantly demanding equal attention on the part of the listener and they end up stepping on each other's toes. Sometimes the best thing you can do is push a less important part further back so that the important stuff can shine.

3) Mixing: In mixing, we have a "holy quantinity" (dibs on THAT band name) of sorts: volume, panning, eq, compression, and reverb. These are what help define the "3D space" that a recording or live concert sound takes up. Volume defines the forward-backward positioning, panning the left-right, EQ the up-down, Compression the amount of forward-backward movement and how the instruments breathe, and reverb the characteristics of the space and the specifics of location in that space. Instruments and sounds are slotted into a 3D box using this information. Now what happens when two instruments or sounds end up overlapping each other in this box? That's right, they end up competing for attention and you get that muddied/cluttered sound.

An instrument that's too loud can end up drowning out other instruments, or you have that problem I mentioned earlier where everything is trying to compete for the listener's attention because the priorities aren't set. Not mentioned nearly often enough is panning. If everything is in the left, right, or center, you're bound to get more toe-steppin' than awkward cousins at a Kentucky prom. If an instrument with a lot of frequency content (like a distorted guitar/synth/cello or a brass instrument) isn't EQ'd aggressively enough or it has too much going on elsewhere, you might get some muddiness. Compression is also a handy tool for creating space, to the point that it's abused by side-chaining the bass to the drums (side-chaining is basically "one comes in, other goes out. Can't expla-well, actually I guess you can never mind") in genres like Electrohouse. But it's best used for augmenting groove by allowing instruments to breathe. Too aggressive of a reverb can also add unwanted frequencies into a mix, and might end up stepping on another instrument's toes! Usually, you need a good combination of all 5 to get a mix to both breathe and leave enough space for Jesus in the mix.

And I want to echo the claim earlier that Dynamic Range has literally nothing to do with the quality of music. It's almost completely meaningless. A song that centers around -15db and a song that centers around -5db might have the same dynamic range. It has no effect on the quality of a mix or a piece of music. If it did, then Bach wouldn't be the literal, objective greatest composer ever.

[5] Stewart-Macdonald, R. “The Complete Musician: An Integrated Approach to Tonal Theory, Analysis, and Listening. By Steven G. Laitz.” Music and Letters, vol. 95, no. 2, 2014, pp. 318–321., doi:10.1093/ml/gcu015.

3. Complaining About The Snare

The thing that armchair audio engineers do the most. Most complaints about the snare are divided into three categories: 1) internet intellectual gesticulating, 2) weirdly specific personal preferences, or 3) a genuinely bad snare sound (the rarest of the three). If someone starts complaining about the snare around you, it's best to lie back and think of English Rock and wait for them to finish.

(for a live performance version, replace with old people complaining about the "drums being too loud", which is also an inevitability)

Offline GentlemanGaga

  • Posts: 1
Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2019, 10:15:41 PM »
a lot of it is personal taste. i think the new album sounds great. someone mentioned haken vector as well, which to me is one of the best sounding albums i've heard in this genre. i think the drums and mix sound amazing on that album.

Offline PixelDream

  • Posts: 2917
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  • Maestro
Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2019, 05:01:59 AM »
Well it's all a matter of taste. That Haken stuff sounds way too sterile for me, but that could also be because of me not liking their music in the first place.
Not 'Down To F***', but 'Dream Theater Forums' .

Offline bill1971

  • Posts: 743
Re: Sound quality of new D/T
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2019, 11:50:07 AM »
nothing should ever be brickwalled. Nothing. Sadly almost everything is nowadays.

Except of course the third little pig house.