Rank the Dream Theater mega-epics

[New World Rushman]

8V - I discovered DT late in my musical life (2004, I was 41), 8V was my first 'new' DT album, so I devoured it, and to this day this song is just at the top. My dad had just passed and the whole "I never wanted to become someone like him" through "I wanted to become, to be someone just like him" totally floored me (so true!). All the sections are brilliant and the ending is one of, if not the most epic endings of any song. I saw it live in RCMH at the Score show, but for some reason, my lasting impression is JP leaning backwards to the point of almost falling back, holding that final note for what seemed like 5 minutes, at the end of Schmedley Wilcox on the Chaos tour.

ACOS - Nothing to say that hasn't been said. These two may actually be 1 and 1A for me.

TCOT - Another album that I devoured when it first came out, I was living a bit of a bachelor life at the time while my wife and kid were away for almost a month that summer, so this played non-stop in the house, loud. Heard it recently for the first time in a while and it has aged quite well (like all the finest wines).

6DOIT - Never connected with this one too much, my first exposure to it was War Inside My Head/Test That Stumped Them All back to back on the Budokan DVD, I loved those tracks, so heavy, but when I finally got the album , the rest of it didn't stand up. That said, it was great to see live with the 8V orchestra at RCMH.

ITPOE - Liked the first part when SC first came out, the second part not as much, but honestly haven't revisited this album much since the initial excitement of a new release wore off.

IT - Barely know it, somewhat fell out of love with DT since MP left. But this new album is bringing me back in a big way!

[robwebster]

1. Octavarium
2. Illumination Theory
3. A Change of Seasons
4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5. In the Presence of Enemies

Pretty standard list, so I'll weigh in on the semantics.

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence has exactly the same structure as Porcupine Tree's album The Incident. SW described it as a song cycle, I'd happily go along with Six Degrees being the same thing - but I'm on board with both angles and do count it as an epic.

The Count of Tuscany is well out of the running for an epic, for me. ANTR and TCoT are both in the same bracket, and that's "closer" in spirit to In the Name of God than A Change of Seasons. Just a long song! I think the lack of named sections does make a difference.

[Fritzinger]

1. Octavarium













2. The Count Of Tuscany
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. In The Presence Of Enemies
5. A Change Of Seasons
6. Illumination Theory

In The Presence and Six Degrees are very close to each other, and they could swap any day. It's hard to rank them among each other because they are so different. They are amazing in very different way.
Octavarium is one of my 3 favourite songs of all time however (the other one being Supper's Ready and The Gates Of Delirium), and it's mainly the reason why I am a prog fan. Very important song for me.

[Dave_Manchester]

1. Octavarium. 10/10, their masterpiece.
2. A Change of Seasons. 10/10, ever-so-slightly behind.
3. The Count of Tuscany. 10/10, for a long time my favourite of theirs.
4. In The Presence of Enemies. 9/10. Fantastic musicianship, lyrics I take in the fun spirit I think they were meant.
5. Illumination Theory. 9/10. Beautiful piece of music.
6. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. 4/10. On the whole not for me but some wonderful parts.

[Dream Team]

ACOS
OV
IT
TCOT
SDOIT
ITPOE

[erwinrafael]

I am the only one who voted for IT. Oh well. I really love how perfectly structured this song is despite the length. And the range of emotions match the lyrics.

SDOIT - ambitious and over the top. ATC, SS and ATC(R) are amazong sections.

ITPOE - works well for me as separate songs. ITPOE 2 really clicked for me last year.

8VM - Amazing if not for the atrocious lyrics in the Full Circle section.

ACOS - Good template for future epics. I do not really connect with it much and I find a lot of sections long just for length's sake.

TCOT - excellent intro and ending. But the sections from the metal to the ambient just don't do it for me.

[KevShmev]

I am the only one who voted for IT.  

I am stunned you voted for the only song on the list that has Mike Mangini.

[BeardedGentlemanHistorian]

1. Octavarium - The very first DT song I heard and still my favorite.
2. The Count of Tuscany - I'm surprised hos divisive this song is. It has some of Petrucci and Rudess' best work.
3. A Change of Seasons - I can't say anything about this song that hasn't already said.
4. In the Presence of Enemies - DT's most underrated epic, IMO.
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Great song overall but some of the sections are a bit weaker than others.
6. Illumination Theory - A little disjointed but still very enjoyable.

[Ninjabait]

01. Octavarium - imo one of the best pieces of music ever written
02. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - an overall fantastic song cycle, even with that stupid 2 minute fade out
03. In the Presence of Enemies - epic all the way through, but not quite as memorable as the above two
04. The Count of Tuscany - the acoustic sections are fantastic. If it wasn't for the sheer amounts of "ALL THE FINEST WINES...IMPROVE WITH AGE!" this would be easily #2
05. A Change of Seasons - has some cool moments, but honestly I don't find it very memorable.
06. Illumination Theory - again, some very cool moments scattered throughout the song, but man is it kind of a hot mess.

[1neeto]

1. ACOS - it is not just their best epic, it is also their very best song. The fact it was written during the Images and Words sessions speaks volumes at the kind of creative level they were so early in their career. It’s the only epic I actually seek, it simply never gets old.

2. Octavarium - this one took the longest to grow on me. I still think the intro is drawn out a bit too long, but what happens after is just absolutely amazing.

3 6DOIT - their most epic sounding epic. Their best produced one too IMO

4. IT - yes, ranking it this high is going a bit against the grain, but I think this is a great epic, even if at parts it sounds a bit all over the place. It is fun to listen.

5. TCOT - solid song, I listen to it when it comes on my playlist, but I don’t actively seek it. Big fan of the outro.

6. ITPOE - DT did the Pink Floyd thing by splitting the epic as first and last songs of the album, and I thought that was cool. Unfortunately, it didn’t work nowhere near as good as Shine On You Crazy Diamond. And I can’t get past the absolutely silly lyrics “dark master I will come for you”. In fact that whole album is a lyrical cornball. I think this song would work better if it wasn’t split.

[Herrick]

Surprised to see In The Presence of Enemies ranked so highly but that made me think that I never actually listened to the two parts together.

Herrick's ranking:

1. A Change of Mofuckin' Seasons by faaaaaaaaar.
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. Octavarium
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany or In The Presence of Enemies. Maybe I'll make a decision after listening to both parts of the latter song black to black.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

1. A Change of Seasons
I can't even remember how many times I'd listen ACOS back in day..that piece alone made me wanna write/improvise music like this. With all the changes in moods and great lyrics it really sparked the love for DT even more..So that was my first choice!

2. 6 Degrees...
Oh the memories of having the CD all summer long and trying to figure out the music..it's more of an anthology of pieces for me that make a great epic!

3.  Tuscany...
BC&SL to me is a great balanced album, with many epics, this one is fast. heavy, and really melodic..

4. In the presence of Enemies
Systematic Chaos..what a weird album.. believe it or not it was in the last couple of years that I truly appreciated this one, it's really epic, complex with nice shreds and tells a cool story..

5. Octavarium
Well I can see the Pink Floyd influence in this one..it's very organic, not so complex as other epics but very emotional..

6.Illumination
Yeah I never could get into this one, some great riffs here and there and the opening theme is very cool, but that moment where the music stops and goes to strings...I don't know it kinda halts the flow of the piece...

[darkshade]

Octavarium (10/10) A perfect building epic, with some of my favorite DT moments, including the "Someone like him" section, the keyboard "solo" that follows, and topped with a major climax and a glorious finale, only flaw is the guitar could have been mixed louder.
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (10/10) A huge epic, emits a very positive vibe, and flows extremely well. This is DT's best album, and it's within their best album imo. Dark Side of the Moon is just about the same length, goes by in a flash.
A Change of Seasons (9.5/10) I obviously also think this epic is fantastic, but I don't connect with this one as much, and the individual sections are more complex than 8vm and Six Degrees, but the overall mix is weird; if this song had Awake production values it would be better.
The Count of Tuscany (9/10) The lyrics bring it down a peg, but otherwise another excellent composition.
In The Presence of Enemies (8/10) Mostly great, kind of drags in the middle, not as big on the darker theme or the "metul" vibe, but there are some intense moments on this one.
Illumination Theory (4.5/10) a bad epic, not well arranged, but the 3 main parts of the tune (the ambient section, the orchestral section, and everything else) are all great, and I particularly think the orchestral section is one of the most beautiful pieces of music I've ever heard. This is a tune that could have benefited from being worked on more, tweaking it, similarly to A Change of Seasons and much of the band's IaW material. I think the little Easter egg at the end of the track is better than the entirety of IT

[SleeperAwake]

1. A Change of Seasons - If there is one song that is Dream Theater's magnum opus, it's this one. Excellent all the way through, it's also their only epic with lyrics that carry actual emotional weight. It's in a league of its own.

2. A Mind Beside Itself - ...but this one does come pretty close.

3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - A stunning piece of work. It ebbs and flows through many sections, from full on heavy to acoustic, intense to laid-back and even playful. All sections work well on their own as songs and the transitions are almost seamless. But of course the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

4. Octavarium - It's really great, yes. The way it continually builds is interesting, the downside is that it takes a while to get going. Half the song, really. To put it another way: the 'boiling' is outstanding but it just simmers for so long. The finale is of course one of the most glorious sections in the catalogue.

5. In the Presence of Enemies - Mostly great, though the solo section meanders and should be cut. The rest rocks (Prelude), drives (Slaughter of the Damned) or is just awesome (Heretic).

6. The Count of Tuscany - The intro, ambient section and outro are all very good. The verses/choruses (you know, the actual song) are not. And the lyrics... I mean, the story is absurd.

7. Illumination Theory - I don't really care for it.

[WildRanger]

1. A Change of Seasons - probably my favorite DT song (5/5 stars)
2. Octavarium (5/5)
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (4/5)
4. In the Presence of Enemies (3.5/5)
5. The Count of Tuscany (3/5)
6. Illumination Theory (2.5/5)

[The Walrus]

Hm... just using the 6 presented in the OP.

#6. Illumination Theory

This song is disjointed to me. It has some cool ideas, but it doesn't flow well between sections - the orchestral section in the middle just doesn't fit, the transitions in and out don't work to me. The tag at the end of the song is a bit annoying when it comes on shuffle. I don't like the nebulous lyrics, the production, or the riffs, and in fact the only thing I really like about this is the amazing epic build into the last verses. Mangini's fills, that driving kick drum on the beat, the crack of those toms or whatever he's hitting - magical. Unfortunately that's the only thing I really like about this song.

#5. In The Presence of Enemies

Some great music in this song across both parts. For part 1 I really like the riff and just how the band works so well. I love the tension in those really fast chromatic runs leading up to the main motif. Lyrically I like the idea behind all of it, too; I don't find it nearly as corny as some people do, or as cheesy as the inspirational ballads they'd do in later years. One of my favorite DT sections ever is the beginning of part 2, with the creepy bass and piano, and James giving an awesome vocal performance. I really love the "I cannot see his face, but I can feel his spite" part, his voice is great. Lots of shred on this but I think it's a lovely epic that usually - not always, but usually - remains entertaining throughout.

#4. The Count of Tuscany

Beautiful. Sweet, beautiful music. One of DT's finest opening few minutes in an epic. Production is great. Lyrics aren't Shakespeare but they work for a song like this. Petrucci in rare form, from the solos to the riffs to the spacey section to the clean strumming at the end. Jordan does some really cool things, I like the synth part in the first half that just uses 2 notes. This song really has everything DT does well in the back half of their career, it's just a delight from start to finish, bursting with melody and creative ideas.

#3. A Change of Seasons

Incredible. What more can be said about ACOS? First time I heard The Crimson Sunset is one of those pivotal moments in my musical life. Still one of their best songs ever.

#2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

I personally do count this as one long song with 8 individual parts, and it's phenomenal in every way. Every member of the band has at least a few moments throughout this track that rank among their best stuff ever in this band. It's a brilliant work of art, and each musician is firing on all cylinders. It's only a hair away from #1.

#1. Octavarium

It does not get better than this. The nuggets referencing so much inspirational music and so many artists, the musical nuggets alone referencing the scale system and the rest of the album, the story about a man waking from a coma, the Continuum and the Pink Floyd homage, the excellent lyrics particularly in the Razor's Edge section, John Myung's best bass line ever, Jordan Rudess's best keyboard solo ever, I could go on and on and on. AMAZING.

[mikeyd23]

I think my ranking would be -

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
The Count of Tuscany

[hefdaddy42]

1. A Change of Seasons.  So glad to finally see this live on the Images & Words tour.

2. Octavarium.  Fantastic.  Live version from SCORE is superior to the album version, and I was blessed to be there that night.

3. Illumination Theory.  I love the composition on this, and frankly, it may be one of the best examples of the musical composition tying in with the lyrics in DT's catalogue.

4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.  Magnificent.  Probably worthy of being higher, but I just like those other 3 songs a little more.

5. In The Presence of Enemies.  This is a fun song, but for me, the enjoyment is surface only.  It doesn't strike me as having the same depth as the first four songs here (a trait shared by the rest of Systematic Chaos as well).

6. The Count of Tuscany.  Big drop-off here.  The least of these by a wide margin.

[Dublagent66]

I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.

Come at me. 

C'mon Kev.  I thought you got the memo on this a long time ago. 


1. SDOIT - Best DT epic ever.
2. ACOS - A very close 2nd
3. 8VM - Pretty solid epic
4. TCOT - A little on the corny side lyrically but still pretty cool
5. ITPOE - Really like Pt.1.  Pt.2 is pretty good but gets a little weird.  Overall still good.
6. IT - Well...I just don't wanna say 

[romdrums]

My ranking:

ACOS

SDOIT
ITPOE

IT
TCOT

8V

[Herrick]

I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.

Come at me. 

You know what? I agree!

[Rattlehead]

Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
In The Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory

This has changed a lot for me over the years, but it's still a little tough to rank because I don't listen to any of them very often.

[Podaar]

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence -- None of the other epics take you on such a journey as this. So many chills.

In The Presence of Enemies -- I know I'll get flack for this, but this again is quite the journey. Muscular and dark. The fictional themes don't bother me because I like fiction.

A Change of Seasons -- I don't think I've listened to this for five years or better, but I could probably still hum the entire song. Probably a nostalgic pick.

Octavarium -- Everything from the moog solo on is fantastic! Prior to that, it's pretty nice.

Illumination Theory -- A consistently interesting track when it's on but I don't crave it when it's not.

The Count of Tuscany -- The first bit up until James comes in is brilliant...then I zone out. MP's vocals on this track are... completely tragic (I toned this critique down, a lot, out of respect for the rest of the band.)

[bosk1]

The top 3 are not surprising to me.  I can't help but wonder what this poll would look like if we included all songs that are 10 minutes or longer, which would obviously sweep in several more.  Hmm...   

[bill1971]

I will have to listen to Octavarium again. People seem to love it so much. It has been a while. I really love around the 13 minute mark I think it was.

[Mladen]

Octavarium
A Change of seasons
In the presence of enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination theory
Six degrees of inner turbulence

[jammindude]

Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Illumination Theory


The Count of Tuscany
































In the Presence of Enemies

[darkshade]

Listening to Octavarium right now, can't recall the last time I listened to this epic. It has aged very well. So many elements I still catch that I never noticed before. This is both my favorite DT song and I also think it's their best song. It's also my #4 epic of all time.

Where do DT epics stand among other prog rock epics?

1. Yes - Close to the Edge
2. Yes -  Gates of Delirium
3. Pink Floyd - Shine On You Crazy Diamond
4. DT - Octavarium
5. Pink Floyd - Echoes
6. DT - SDOIT
7. Transatlantic - All Of The Above
8. Transatlantic - The Whirlwind
9. Jethro Tull - Thick As A Brick
9a. ELP - Tarkus
10. DT - ACOS
10a. Yes - The Revealing Science of God

11. Rush - Cygnus X1 pt. 2

Special shout out to Pink Floyd - Dogs, Rush - 2112, Pat Metheny Group - The Way Up, and The Flower Kings - Stardust We Are

[bosk1]

Thanks for the reminder in another thread.  To me, the ranking after 170 or so votes is not surprising.  But I always wonder whether it would look different if rankings were taken into account, rather than a single vote for a favorite. 

[pg1067]

Thanks for the reminder in another thread.  To me, the ranking after 170 or so votes is not surprising.  But I always wonder whether it would look different if rankings were taken into account, rather than a single vote for a favorite.

Well...there were 41 comments in this thread in which folks ranked the six songs given.  This does not include a couple comments in which folks excluded SDOIT.  Assigning six points for a first place ranking, five points for a second place ranking, etc., here's what you get:

1. Octavarium:  195 total points.  Most common ranking was first place, and it got the most first place votes with 17.  Also got one last place vote.

2. A Change of Seasons:  194 total points.  Most common ranking was first place (15 votes).  Only song to receive zero last place votes.

3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence:  160 total points.  Most common ranking was second place.  Received almost as many last place votes (7) as it did first place votes (8).

4. In the Presence of Enemies:  117 total points.  Most common ranking was third place (10 votes).  Received no first place votes.

5. The Count of Tuscany:  104 total points.  Most common ranking was fourth and fifth place (received 11 votes at each spot).  Received no first place votes.

6. Illumination Theory:  91 total points.  Most common ranking was last place (14 votes).  Received one first place and one second place vote.


So...ACOS and 8VM switch spots, but it's otherwise the same.  Of course, this is less than 1/4 of the votes in the actual poll.

[Evermind]

Good to see I didn't forget to vote for ITPOE in this thread too.

[goo-goo]

A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
Octavarium

Probably one of the few that doesn't like Octavarium the song. It sounds disjointed, doesn't flow very well. I do like the Someone Like Him, Medicate, and Razors Edge Sections though. The song loses me on the Full Circle and Intervals sections, which in my opinion are very weak (lyrics are clever but I just don't see their point and musically don't do anything for me). 

[Northern Lion]

A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
Octavarium

Probably one of the few that doesn't like Octavarium the song. It sounds disjointed, doesn't flow very well. I do like the Someone Like Him, Medicate, and Razors Edge Sections though. The song loses me on the Full Circle and Intervals sections, which in my opinion are very weak (lyrics are clever but I just don't see their point and musically don't do anything for me).

My reasons are different, but in general I feel the same way about the song.  It's dead last for me.

Here's my ranking:

ITPoE
TCoT
SDoIT
ACoS
IT
8VM

SDoIT, ACoS, IT can switch places on any given day.  Depending on my mood .  The only epic I don't listen to on a regular basis is 8VM.  Although every once in a while I get a hankering.

[54_diplomats]

ACoS > 8VM > SOIT >> ITPOE > TCoT>>>> IT

Love ACoS to death, top 3 song easily. Octavarium and SDOIT are also amazing although I don't listen to the latter much anymore since it's too long. ITPOE is slightly ruined by The Reckoning for me but I love the song too. TCoT has some pretty awful lyrics which brings it down a lot for me, and I'm generally pretty forgiving when it comes to lyrics but musically its phenomenal. IT has some part I really enjoy but I don't like it anywhere near as much as the rest of the epics. It feels really disjointed and the sections I like don't last very long.

[Trav86]

I’m one of those people that doesn’t consider SDOIT as one song...however for the sake of this list...

A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

Octavarium


Illumination Theory
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany