Tempos and Time Signatures from DT that elude you

[RAIN]

I'm a big DT fan and have been since 1992 and yet there are so many time signature changes and tempos that still elude me.  Even with tab books I just can't "follow" them, I lose track of where the beat is.  It's frustrating and yet I'm still attracted to their music.

Anyone else?  What are parts that still elude you?

A recent example would be the intro to Pale Blue Dot, I just can't, after checking out two different tabs, can't figure out that intro.

The riff section before and during the beginning of the solo on Lie.

 

[pg1067]

The one that springs immediately to mind is the fast descending riff at the end of the "Crimson Sunrise" section of "A Change of Seasons," but it's more that I can never quite perceive the groupings of the 17 notes that make up the riff (plus the landing note).

Also the guitar solo section of "Lifting Shadows off a Dream."

[erwinrafael]

I'm a big DT fan and have been since 1992 and yet there are so many time signature changes and tempos that still elude me.  Even with tab books I just can't "follow" them, I lose track of where the beat is.  It's frustrating and yet I'm still attracted to their music.

Anyone else?  What are parts that still elude you?

A recent example would be the intro to Pale Blue Dot, I just can't, after checking out two different tabs, can't figure out that intro.

The riff section before and during the beginning of the solo on Lie.

The funny thing about this is Mike Mangini would most likely say do not count those difficult parts. Rather, sing them.

[Max Kuehnau]

yes. Rain, you can use konnokol to help you figure things out, it's what I do. The PBD introductory time signature is 19/16 btw. Back to the subject at hand: I don't think there is anything that eludes me about the rhythmical aspects of DT. (I analyse everything right away while listening, so it usually doesn't take me long to figure things out)

[Lonk]

I remember the first time I saw this I was scratching my head for a good 3 mins and had to ask my theory professor what 21:12 meant.

[The Letter M]

I remember the first time I saw this I was scratching my head for a good 3 mins and had to ask my theory professor what 21:12 meant.

WOW... I knew Jordan played some complex polyrhythms, but that's nuts. Piano music can get pretty intense with polyrhythms, though, but I wonder if he intentionally made that a 21:12 polyrhythm as a nod to Rush...

-Marc.

[nattmorker]

One of the things I love the most with DT music is to count along the music. For example, I looove counting aloud to the verses in TTTSTA, it's so fun. The same with the first pre-verse and verse of BAI.

Most of the time I try to figure out the time signatures on my own. I still have a hard time figuring out:

The intro of BAI
The last part of TTTSTA (the super fast run of notes at the end)   

[Lonk]

WOW... I knew Jordan played some complex polyrhythms, but that's nuts. Piano music can get pretty intense with polyrhythms, though, but I wonder if he intentionally made that a 21:12 polyrhythm as a nod to Rush...

-Marc.

I never thought of it but it’s possible.

And what’s TTTSTA?

[The Letter M]

WOW... I knew Jordan played some complex polyrhythms, but that's nuts. Piano music can get pretty intense with polyrhythms, though, but I wonder if he intentionally made that a 21:12 polyrhythm as a nod to Rush...

-Marc.

I never thought of it but it’s possible.

And what’s TTTSTA?

Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence: IV. The Test That Stumped Them All

-Marc.

[TheCountOfNYC]

The Dance of Eternity used to be a complete mindf*** to me, but I’m proud to say that I can play that monster from beginning to end on drums. Honestly once you get past the intimidation factor of the time signature changes and just listen to it, you realize that the music has a natural flow that makes it easier to comprehend what’s going on.

The end of the instrumental section of Metropolis threw me off for a very long time, but I was finally able to figure it out thanks to repeated plays of it in Rock Band.

The section of Enigma Machine starting at 1:41 confuses me a bit.

The Dark Eternal Night is a bit tricky as well.

And then there’s Outcry...

[Lax]

Buying a drumkit made me understand way faster than theory (I'm a guitarist), because I feel those faster than I think of them.
I mean it's like I'm memorising rythm patterns and hear some kind of click track in my head, instead of number and counting while playing.

Does anybody has a "Hum ta ta hum ta hum ta hum tatatata" map of songs in head like me ?

PS : Polyrythms are complicated in every cases tho

[JLa]

Metropolis pt 1 - the section starting at 7:23

I know it by heart and can sing every note, but tap my foot to the beat? Hell no. It's just a flurry of notes and beats.

In my younger days I thought parts like these were mind-blowingly amazing. Now they just annoy me. There are a few crazy instrumental sections in the latest release too, and now they just make me impatient. "Oh get over with it, get back to the music will you?" 

[Max Kuehnau]

Metropolis pt 1 - the section starting at 7:23

I know it by heart and can sing every note, but tap my foot to the beat? Hell no. It's just a flurry of notes and beats.

In my younger days I thought parts like these were mind-blowingly amazing. Now they just annoy me. There are a few crazy instrumental sections in the latest release too, and now they just make me impatient. "Oh get over with it, get back to the music will you?" 

the section you mean is: (5/8 - 7/8)x3 , 5/8, 5/8 and 7/8 in that order IIRC. Not too hard to figure out.

[pg1067]

Metropolis pt 1 - the section starting at 7:23

I know it by heart and can sing every note, but tap my foot to the beat? Hell no. It's just a flurry of notes and beats.

In my younger days I thought parts like these were mind-blowingly amazing. Now they just annoy me. There are a few crazy instrumental sections in the latest release too, and now they just make me impatient. "Oh get over with it, get back to the music will you?" 

the section you mean is: (5/8 - 7/8)x3 , 5/8, 5/8 and 7/8 in that order IIRC. Not too hard to figure out.

If you start at 7:23, you also have 12/8 x 3 and 9/8.  The "funny" thing about the 5's and 7's section is that the transcription on songsterr.com crams it all into 4/4 and it works.

[Lonk]

If you start at 7:23, you also have 12/8 x 3 and 9/8.  The "funny" thing about the 5's and 7's section is that the transcription on songsterr.com crams it all into 4/4 and it works.

The great thing about Music and Music theory in general, is that there are multiple ways of writing something and it still makes sense, since it's still going to give you the same sound. It's not until you get deep into theory that certain writing starts to look funny (note groups and sharps and flat for example).

[pg1067]

If you start at 7:23, you also have 12/8 x 3 and 9/8.  The "funny" thing about the 5's and 7's section is that the transcription on songsterr.com crams it all into 4/4 and it works.

The great thing about Music and Music theory in general, is that there are multiple ways of writing something and it still makes sense, since it's still going to give you the same sound. It's not until you get deep into theory that certain writing starts to look funny (note groups and sharps and flat for example).

Definitely true.

On a side note, my 15 year old flute/piccolo player will be taking AP music theory in school next year.  I'm probably looking forward to it as much as she is!

[spw5150]

So I am a newbie regarding music theory and time signatures.   What is the easiest way to learn what time sig a song is in? 

[nattmorker]

On a side note, my 15 year old flute/piccolo player will be taking AP music theory in school next year.  I'm probably looking forward to it as much as she is!

My wife is a flute/piccolo player! I had so much fun when she was in school studying music theory.

[pg1067]

So I am a newbie regarding music theory and time signatures.   What is the easiest way to learn what time sig a song is in?

Aside from looking at reliable sheet music or transcriptions....

The way I learned is by listening to a lot of bands that used "odd" time signatures commonly.  Of course, you have to have an understanding what a time signature is and signifies.  You also start from the premise that 90-95% of all popular/rock music is in 4/4 or 3/4 or some variant thereof (e.g., 12/8, 6/8 or 2/4).

On a side note, my 15 year old flute/piccolo player will be taking AP music theory in school next year.  I'm probably looking forward to it as much as she is!

My wife is a flute/piccolo player! I had so much fun when she was in school studying music theory.

The thing of it is that my daughter has always looked to me for theory-related information, but I'm mostly self-taught.  I learned a little bit of theory playing trumpet in elementary and one year of high school, and the woman from whom I took lessons why I started playing bass more than 30 years ago included some theory instruction, and I took a one semester class in college.  But I never learned advanced theory.  I have feeling, though, that when she gets done with the class, she'll be ahead of me.

[RAIN]

Also the guitar solo section of "Lifting Shadows off a Dream."

Weird thing is, I've always been able to follow that one...nuts how we can each be so different with the same band/time signatures. 

yes. Rain, you can use konnokol to help you figure things out, it's what I do. The PBD introductory time signature is 19/16 btw. Back to the subject at hand: I don't think there is anything that eludes me about the rhythmical aspects of DT. (I analyse everything right away while listening, so it usually doesn't take me long to figure things out)

Yeah, that 19/16 thing, I just can't.  I simply can't follow it.  I've tried and tried and I never get the count/beat.  That and so many other nutso ones.  Like the intro to At Wits End...11/16 to 7/8...I just can't follow it or count it out..

But then again, none of that stops me from enjoying the music, but I can't rhythmically beat to it.....

[Lonk]

I think it helps to start out with he sheet music. Get really familiar with a bunch of time signatures and feels and then work your way into figuring things out without the sheet music.

It's similar to playing by ear, or figuring out chord progression.

[DT89]

Also the guitar solo section of "Lifting Shadows off a Dream."

Weird thing is, I've always been able to follow that one...nuts how we can each be so different with the same band/time signatures. 

yes. Rain, you can use konnokol to help you figure things out, it's what I do. The PBD introductory time signature is 19/16 btw. Back to the subject at hand: I don't think there is anything that eludes me about the rhythmical aspects of DT. (I analyse everything right away while listening, so it usually doesn't take me long to figure things out)

Yeah, that 19/16 thing, I just can't.  I simply can't follow it.  I've tried and tried and I never get the count/beat.

19/16 looks complicated, but it's actually pretty simple.  It's basically 4/4 (equivalent to 16/16) with 3/16 tacked on the end.  So, to count along to the opening drum beat: 1(bass) 2(snare) 3(bass) 4(snare) then a quick 123.

[Lonk]

19/16 looks complicated, but it's actually pretty simple.  It's basically 4/4 (equivalent to 16/16) with 3/16 tacked on the end.  So, to count along to the opening drum beat: 1(bass) 2(snare) 3(bass) 4(snare) then a quick 123.

Yeah, This as well. It's always good to think in 4/4 and see where the timing goes off, are they beats missing, or something extra?

For example, Money by Pink Floyd is easy to figure out (7/4, could be divided into 4/4 and 3/4). You get feeling that there are 3 extra beats or 1 beat is missing from the second half.

Same with Stream of Consciousness. The first part is in 5/4 i believe. When listening to it you get that extra beat feel.