Humour me for a minute - a very specific MM- and MP-related poll

[Peace and Love]

Let me say at the very beginning that this is not a venue for people to bash MP or MM.

I am just curious to know what people think about this question related to MP and MM's drumming styles: I read a lot of "MP Warriors" on Youtube etc. say that they while they agree MM is more technically advanced, he sounds robotic, sterile, overthought, etc.. A common accompaniment to this opinion is that "MP's great skill is in playing odd meters and making them sound like 4/4"

Now, my opinion is exactly the opposite! To me, MP's approach is all about making it extremely obvious to the listener "look at me, I'm doing something very technical, very advanced - this is prog" - while MM's approach is in fact the opposite. His playing is so smooth, his mastery of odd times so advanced, that often times I don't even detect that he is playing something crazy technical. It takes me many listens, and sometimes having to read an explanation by someone on DTF or Youtube to even realize that what he is doing is very advanced! To me, this MM's greatest quality, and it's what throws long-time DT listeners off (at least the ones that hate everything post MP-era)... MM makes the hardest thing sound natural and fluid, to the point that unless it's explained, many listeners don't even realize what's going on - we're conditioned through decades and decades of flashy "prog" drumming.

Anyway, will be interested to read where you all stand on this.

[ReaPsTA]

I agree with your premise. I'll see interviews with Mangini where he breaks down stuff that sounds simple, but when he explains the structure under it my brain melts.

[Stadler]

A common accompaniment to this opinion is that "MP's great skill is in playing odd meters and making them sound like 4/4"

Since I've written almost that exact phrase within the last couple days, I guess you know where I stand.  And I stand by it.   

[nobloodyname]

Yup, we all need this thread like a hole in the head, regardless of its intention

[Madman Shepherd]

They are both incredibly technical. Mangini more so. They also both play with a ton of feel. Mangini no less.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

For me some of the stuff MM does both looks and sounds technical because even if I know exactly what he plays it’s still hard to pull off. Even worse if you don’t play on a similar setup because then it might be impossible.

[erciccio]

Mangini is more technical- this is a fact, not an opinion. 

The second part of the question is more tricky.

I think Portnoy is VERY GOOD with odd times, and one of the things I loved about the old DT was his ability to create fluid odd times working on the accents, even through "simple" structures. Think of the 11/8+10/8 part in Erotomania. Very "basic", but works perfectly.
I think he "sounds" more technical more because he tends to overload some parts with fills and hi-hats..

Mangini at first listen can sound a bit more "rationale", robotic and too "structured"...I get that.
But when he is unleashed, he is a real monster.
Pale Blue Dot is simply amazing...super groovy 19/16 riffs, poly-rythms, great fills, great change of dynamics...

So, in terms of "appearance": "Unleashed Mangini" > Portnoy > Mangini

[bosk1]

They are both very technical in actuality.  But MM is even more technical.  Kind of like Reapsta said:

I'll see interviews with Mangini where he breaks down stuff that sounds simple, but when he explains the structure under it my brain melts.

As far as "feel," I think they both feel very technical as well.  But here's where I would explain it differently than the poll options and differently than you see in YouTube comments:  They each feel very technical in very different ways. 

Portnoy sounds very flashy and loose (he is a pretty tight player, but he has a sound that just feel more loose and relaxed).  That's the best way I can describe it.  He sounds like he is playing rock and roll--very complex, technical rock and roll--but rock and roll.  He is having fun, and drawing attention to himself, and drawing attention to other parts of the song.  But it is loose sounding.  That's more his approach.

Mangini approaches his technicality differently than Portnoy.  He makes a point of sounding more even and polished.  His playing doesn't sound as flashy, even when he is doing something incredibly technical, and even when he is drawing attention to it in a live setting.  But he has an incredible focus on precision and in making sure to play a support role to every instrument, and that just makes him sound different. 

Neither approach is necessarily "better."  IMO, they each work incredibly well in a progressive metal setting.  But they do have a different sound and feel. 

[Peace and Love]

Neither approach is necessarily "better."  IMO, they each work incredibly well in a progressive metal setting.

I definitely agree with that, I'm a huge fan of both. This topic certainly wasn't meant to invite bashing of either drummer, nor am I interested in convincing anyone to hear things the way I do.

But I am very interested in understanding how other listeners perceive their respective drumming styles - and to my surprise, my own opinion (#4) is not the most common! In fact 70% of voters think MM's style sounds more technical, which is not what I expected.

[bosk1]

If I had to choose one of those options, I guess I would go with #3.  To make what I posted above more concise, the most accurate option for me, if it existed, would be:

#5:  MM's drumming is more technical; They both *sound* very technical, but in different ways

[darkshade]

[MP] has a sound that just feel more loose and relaxed

That is a good description to differentiate MP and MM.

MM is 'too' technical, and lacks a groove that MP has, everything just always sounds technical, and when he isn't being technical (like on many TA songs) the drumming is boring to my ears. Like, all the crazy drumming doesn't mean much if the material isn't that strong, either.

[erwinrafael]

I have been asking for a specific example of MM making a simple 4/4 beat sound more complicated than it is. Nobody has been able to give any. More often, he makes complicated beats sound like 4/4 (for example, Enigma Machine, OTBOA).

[Peter Mc]

I’m no drummer but I think MM is the more technically accomplished drummer and MP is much more overtly flashy and more of a show off for want of a better term. I think therefore that MP sounds more technical as he overplays a lot more in situations where MM sometimes sits back. When MM does go for it though, he plays stuff that is probably beyond the capability of MP, that’s me speculating though.

[Volante99]

Welll...the material DT was composing in the MP days, by in large, was more technical so I will say MP’s drumming has been more ‘technical’ with Dream Theater.

It’s not that I don’t think MM isn’t technical but MP has material like Metropolis, Dance of Eternity. The majority of MM songs are comprised of a lighter prog/rock opera, and more straight forward ~5:00minute songs.

[darkshade]

I agree, MM is a more technically accomplished player, but it's true; modern DT hasn't written anything as complex as the most complex stuff from I&W-8vm

[erwinrafael]

Nah, the drumming in the instrumentals of Illumination Theory are more complex than Metropolis Pt. 1 and Pale Blue Dot is more complex than TDOE. You would only know it if you try drumming it, which really is why I think MM is the one who is more technical but doesn't actually make it sound difficult.

[goo-goo]

For the 1st three post-MP albums, Mangini does sound technical and robotic. In Distance Over Time, MM sounds like MP (in a good way). In d/t, Mangini sounds very fluid and non-robotic and he is doing insane stuff and still plays for the song. I'm in awe with Mangini in this new album.

[Trav86]

Being a drummer, the best I can describe it is MM is more technical, but it may come across better to other drummers.  MP sounds more technical to non-drummers. There is less nuance. Another way to describe it is that when I got into DT and MP as a young teen, I thought he was amazing.  20 years later, and more maturity as a music listener and player, I think MP is really great.  But I think MM is amazing.

[Dream Team]

I just watched a couple of videos, drum covers of Lost Not Forgotten and Illumination Theory (probably my 2 favorite MM songs) and to see everything he was doing is  .

[Thoughtspart3]

I feel like MM is a little more loose on D/T.  Nothing compared to MP but it is noticeable to me. It is the first album with DT that I am really appreciating him. I think having him part of the writing process helped quite a bit.