Author Topic: #metoo and rock music  (Read 581 times)

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Offline KevShmev

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#metoo and rock music
« on: March 01, 2019, 08:25:08 AM »
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/15/opinions/ryan-adams-metoo-and-my-rock-collection-stewart/index.html

Still gathering my thoughts as to what I think of this, but I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Online El Barto

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2019, 09:09:19 AM »
My thoughts are pretty simple. Fuck this guy. If he wants to deny himself countless hours of great music, film, television, and literature because he doesn't share the same values as the performers that's his business, but I think he's an idiot. He's no different than the stoneage cretins who used to protest Maiden concerts because their music will lead kids to devil worship. Or people who boycott Roger Waters and Ted Nugent because they disagree with their politics. In fact he might be worse, since he's basing it largely on lyrical content, which should never be seen as necessarily indicative of the author. If I thought he was worth the effort I'd ask how he could ever listen to the music of Mozart, Puccini, or Verdi again. After all, they each wrote operas filled with terrible examples of objectionable values. Cosi Fan Tuti, wonderful opera by Mozart, involves two degenerates tricking their girlfriends into sleeping with each other. My god, how sick is this Wolfgang asshole? Me? I'm content to call it comedy and continue living my damn life.
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Online Stadler

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2019, 09:41:56 AM »
Yeah, I made the mistake of reading her OTHER article, about how "Sixteen Candles" is racist and sexist and ought to be "retired".   It bugs the crap out of me when people who make their living with words and ideas knee-jerk to denying others the same right.   

This woman thinks she's helping and she's not.   

Online Chino

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2019, 09:44:13 AM »
Someone should introduce this woman to Steel Panther

Offline KevShmev

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2019, 10:10:16 AM »
I'll bet she is a big fan of Lick My Love Pump by Spinal Tap. :P

Ultimately, I agree with Barto.  I don't have to think much of the artist to enjoy their work.  I get that it can be hard to separate the two at times - like, if Bill Cosby did something new, I doubt I would want to watch it, but his old comedy didn't become not funny because his sordid past was revealed - but sometimes you just to kick back and enjoy life without worrying about every little thing.

Online RuRoRul

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2019, 10:11:38 AM »
It's well known that looking back on previous rock and roll eras things that were considered part of the times and even glorified would be seen a lot differently now (e.g. sex with under 16 groupies). So it might be pretty weird to think of the image of some rockstars from the past and how they'd be perceived now. And maybeeven if we're a fan we can stop short of saying "____ is a wonderful human being and we should all have his values!" just because we like someone's music. But considering that most people don't do that anyway, I'd say they're good to continue being fans of what they like exactly as they are doing.

I think though that if someone no longer wants to continue supporting an artist because they have a problem with them there's nothing wrong with them doing that, it's actually a perfectly rational position - as a consumer, what you choose to buy and support is the main thing you have control over and even though you're just a small player in the game and are unlikely to make a difference alone, it makes sense to throw your money at things according to what you want. Part of it is getting or seeing music for your own enjoyment, but part of it is about supporting the artist, and people can weigh how much those things matter to them when making their decisions (e.g. buying a special bundle or VIP pass as much because you want to support the band as because you want the extra goodies).

But feeling the need to go back and "reevalute" what you like to make sure the songs, the artists, and everything around them shared the same values you hold today? No. I was thinking about what that would have to mean for considering anything from the distant past - El Barto already posted a perfect example. People's taste can change over time, but forcing yourself to stop liking things is stupid. I know I always try to avoid allowing anything outside of the music affect what I enjoy.

Having said that, I haven't found myself being able to go back and listen to the band Lostprohpets after everything came out about the singer Ian Watkins (if you don't know about him you can Google it, as long as your prepared to read some pretty vile stuff). I used to listen to their album Start Something a lot when I was young. They're not exactly the style I gravitated towards over time, but sometimes I'll be listening to some nostalgic early 2000s alt rock or pop punk, or just remember a bit of a song in my head, and briefly think maybe of putting on one of those old songs... until I remember who it is and pass on the idea. I still like the music and according to my own principles nothing should stop me listening to it, but I've still never felt comfortable enough with the idea of enjoying it again that I've actually done so. Maybe one day I will.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 10:26:08 AM by RuRoRul »

Online El Barto

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2019, 10:55:25 AM »
It's well known that looking back on previous rock and roll eras things that were considered part of the times and even glorified would be seen a lot differently now (e.g. sex with under 16 groupies). So it might be pretty weird to think of the image of some rockstars from the past and how they'd be perceived now. And maybeeven if we're a fan we can stop short of saying "____ is a wonderful human being and we should all have his values!" just because we like someone's music. But considering that most people don't do that anyway, I'd say they're good to continue being fans of what they like exactly as they are doing.

I think though that if someone no longer wants to continue supporting an artist because they have a problem with them there's nothing wrong with them doing that, it's actually a perfectly rational position
- as a consumer, what you choose to buy and support is the main thing you have control over and even though you're just a small player in the game and are unlikely to make a difference alone, it makes sense to throw your money at things according to what you want. Part of it is getting or seeing music for your own enjoyment, but part of it is about supporting the artist, and people can weigh how much those things matter to them when making their decisions (e.g. buying a special bundle or VIP pass as much because you want to support the band as because you want the extra goodies).

But feeling the need to go back and "reevalute" what you like to make sure the songs, the artists, and everything around them shared the same values you hold today? No. I was thinking about what that would have to mean for considering anything from the distant past - El Barto already posted a perfect example. People's taste can change over time, but forcing yourself to stop liking things is stupid. I know I always try to avoid allowing anything outside of the music affect what I enjoy.

Having said that, I haven't found myself being able to go back and listen to the band Lostprohpets after everything came out about the singer Ian Watkins (if you don't know about him you can Google it, as long as your prepared to read some pretty vile stuff). I used to listen to their album Start Something a lot when I was young. They're not exactly the style I gravitated towards over time, but sometimes I'll be listening to some nostalgic early 2000s alt rock or pop punk, or just remember a bit of a song in my head, and briefly think maybe of putting on one of those old songs... until I remember who it is and pass on the idea. I still like the music and according to my own principles nothing should stop me listening to it, but I've still never felt comfortable enough with the idea of enjoying it again that I've actually done so. Maybe one day I will.
I absolutely get the bolded and agree with it completely. If you don't want to spend money on something a person you don't like has produced then don't. She's talking bout getting rid of albums she already owns, though. She reminds me of the dipshits that burn their Nikes because they used Kapernick in an advert. Watching Sixteen Candles on Netflix isn't really supporting it, though. And it's certainly not an endorsement of getting that hot blond chick loaded and letting your friend bang her. If you don't want to buy a ticket to see Robert Plant because he didn't check the ID of every girl that wanted to fuck him that's you're prerogative. I think it's silly, but whatever. If you decide to toss his albums on the fire because of it you're an idiot, though.

And really, where does it all end?
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Offline Adami

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2019, 11:48:57 AM »
I'm of two minds about this.

1) I think it's completely dumb, for the exact reasons pointed out. I remember watching a youtube show I always watch during the big time when a lot was coming out, and one actor came up in convo and someone asked "are we allowed to like their movies still?" and being very serious. I was like....yes. Like whatever you want. I think Mel Gibson is a racist douche, but I still love a lot of his movies, even What Women Want.

2) I think it's completely dumb, but because it devalues the legitimacy of the movement. These stupid extremists shift the convo over to how dumb it all it is, which is too often generalized for the entire movement, which is unfair, but inevitable and will likely happen in this very thread.
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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2019, 11:50:37 AM »
This sort of begs a larger question:  is there benefit to having examples of all kinds of behavior, in order to see the spectrum of what's possible?

I sort of believe there can be no good without evil, generally, because "evil" shows us how important "good" can be (and is).  I think seeing some of these stories and songs and acts can be enlightening.   All so-called "bad" references can't be taken out of context like this.   

And, of course, there's the general aspect of "story-telling".  We can't tell stories with so-called "bad" behavior?   As El Barto noted, I think, some of our best works of art illuminate our dark sides.

Offline bosk1

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2019, 12:04:06 PM »
I'm of two minds about this.

1) I think it's completely dumb, for the exact reasons pointed out. I remember watching a youtube show I always watch during the big time when a lot was coming out, and one actor came up in convo and someone asked "are we allowed to like their movies still?" and being very serious. I was like....yes. Like whatever you want. I think Mel Gibson is a racist douche, but I still love a lot of his movies, even What Women Want.

2) I think it's completely dumb, but because it devalues the legitimacy of the movement. These stupid extremists shift the convo over to how dumb it all it is, which is too often generalized for the entire movement, which is unfair, but inevitable and will likely happen in this very thread.

This post completely pisses me off.  I completely agree with every word of it.  How is that even possible?
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Offline TL

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2019, 11:40:51 PM »
I don't think there's anything wrong about thinking critically about media. Not only even the media we enjoy, but especially the media we enjoy. It's not even to say that we can't continue to enjoy things (after all, we do live in a free society), but there's nothing wrong with wanting the things we enjoy to be better.
There are plenty of films and albums that I enjoyed when I was younger, where I've gone back to them more recently and found them off-putting for this or that reason. Not because anyone told me that I should be offended by them, but because I have different sensibilities now. There are absolutely things I would have found to be a funny joke in my teenage years that I find incredibly problematic and harmful now.

It's not to say that you automatically have to change your opinions of old media to conform with a new prevailing consensus.
But it's also a bit silly and childish to refuse to take a critical look at old media you enjoyed years ago.

Also, 16 Candles and a bunch of other '80s comedies absolutely play date rape for laughs. After all, "The female character (who is acting the way the film makers wrote her to act) is fine with it, so what's the big deal?".

Quote
And, of course, there's the general aspect of "story-telling".  We can't tell stories with so-called "bad" behavior?   As El Barto noted, I think, some of our best works of art illuminate our dark sides.
I think the concern is that in some older films, things we would consider 'bad' by modern standards are not portrayed as bad. There's a difference between having an anti-hero and having a hero who hasn't aged well.

Also, yes, a performer whose work I enjoyed can absolutely be soured for me by certain transgressions. Obviously that's up to each person to decide where the line is, but it's absolutely a thing. For instance, I still don't want to watch anything with Kevin Spacey in it, and before his issues came to light I quite enjoyed his work. No one told me to not enjoy Kevin Spacey anymore. I just genuinely don't want to watch him anymore.

That's a key thing here too. With these opinion pieces, no one is saying, "These things should be banned". They're literally just suggesting how people might re-evaluate works based on newer information on their creators. What's the harm in that?

Online El Barto

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2019, 11:59:28 PM »
I don't think there's anything wrong about thinking critically about media. Not only even the media we enjoy, but especially the media we enjoy. It's not even to say that we can't continue to enjoy things (after all, we do live in a free society), but there's nothing wrong with wanting the things we enjoy to be better.
There are plenty of films and albums that I enjoyed when I was younger, where I've gone back to them more recently and found them off-putting for this or that reason. Not because anyone told me that I should be offended by them, but because I have different sensibilities now. There are absolutely things I would have found to be a funny joke in my teenage years that I find incredibly problematic and harmful now.

It's not to say that you automatically have to change your opinions of old media to conform with a new prevailing consensus.
But it's also a bit silly and childish to refuse to take a critical look at old media you enjoyed years ago.

Also, 16 Candles and a bunch of other '80s comedies absolutely play date rape for laughs. After all, "The female character (who is acting the way the film makers wrote her to act) is fine with it, so what's the big deal?".

Quote
And, of course, there's the general aspect of "story-telling".  We can't tell stories with so-called "bad" behavior?   As El Barto noted, I think, some of our best works of art illuminate our dark sides.
I think the concern is that in some older films, things we would consider 'bad' by modern standards are not portrayed as bad. There's a difference between having an anti-hero and having a hero who hasn't aged well.

Also, yes, a performer whose work I enjoyed can absolutely be soured for me by certain transgressions. Obviously that's up to each person to decide where the line is, but it's absolutely a thing. For instance, I still don't want to watch anything with Kevin Spacey in it, and before his issues came to light I quite enjoyed his work. No one told me to not enjoy Kevin Spacey anymore. I just genuinely don't want to watch him anymore.

That's a key thing here too. With these opinion pieces, no one is saying, "These things should be banned". They're literally just suggesting how people might re-evaluate works based on newer information on their creators. What's the harm in that?

Nobody has to suggest that they be banned. They merely have to suggest that they not be shown, or played, or performed. Fear and corporate greed will handle the rest. That's the insidious part of this. Things become effectively banned without anybody actually having to use the "B" word. I don't think anybody called for The Dukes of Hazard to actually be banned, but it's sure as hell dead and never coming back. In ten years will you even be able to see a Kevin Spacey flick anymore? American Beauty, FFS?

And perhaps it's just me, but I never once thought that getting a hot blond girl drunk so my friends could pork her was acceptable. Even when I'm all of 15 I recognized juvenile humor as just that and not something that should ever happen. I can also laugh at a humorous depiction of a Nazi POW camp, a guy's severed head going down on a different hot blond girl, and Marvin getting his brains blown all over the back of Chevy Nova.
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Offline TL

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2019, 12:03:47 AM »
I don't think there's anything wrong about thinking critically about media. Not only even the media we enjoy, but especially the media we enjoy. It's not even to say that we can't continue to enjoy things (after all, we do live in a free society), but there's nothing wrong with wanting the things we enjoy to be better.
There are plenty of films and albums that I enjoyed when I was younger, where I've gone back to them more recently and found them off-putting for this or that reason. Not because anyone told me that I should be offended by them, but because I have different sensibilities now. There are absolutely things I would have found to be a funny joke in my teenage years that I find incredibly problematic and harmful now.

It's not to say that you automatically have to change your opinions of old media to conform with a new prevailing consensus.
But it's also a bit silly and childish to refuse to take a critical look at old media you enjoyed years ago.

Also, 16 Candles and a bunch of other '80s comedies absolutely play date rape for laughs. After all, "The female character (who is acting the way the film makers wrote her to act) is fine with it, so what's the big deal?".

Quote
And, of course, there's the general aspect of "story-telling".  We can't tell stories with so-called "bad" behavior?   As El Barto noted, I think, some of our best works of art illuminate our dark sides.
I think the concern is that in some older films, things we would consider 'bad' by modern standards are not portrayed as bad. There's a difference between having an anti-hero and having a hero who hasn't aged well.

Also, yes, a performer whose work I enjoyed can absolutely be soured for me by certain transgressions. Obviously that's up to each person to decide where the line is, but it's absolutely a thing. For instance, I still don't want to watch anything with Kevin Spacey in it, and before his issues came to light I quite enjoyed his work. No one told me to not enjoy Kevin Spacey anymore. I just genuinely don't want to watch him anymore.

That's a key thing here too. With these opinion pieces, no one is saying, "These things should be banned". They're literally just suggesting how people might re-evaluate works based on newer information on their creators. What's the harm in that?

Nobody has to suggest that they be banned. They merely have to suggest that they not be shown, or played, or performed. Fear and corporate greed will handle the rest. That's the insidious part of this. Things become effectively banned without anybody actually having to use the "B" word. I don't think anybody called for The Dukes of Hazard to actually be banned, but it's sure as hell dead and never coming back. In ten years will you even be able to see a Kevin Spacey flick anymore? American Beauty, FFS?

And perhaps it's just me, but I never once thought that getting a hot blond girl drunk so my friends could pork her was acceptable. Even when I'm all of 15 I recognized juvenile humor as just that and not something that should ever happen. I can also laugh at a humorous depiction of a Nazi POW camp, a guy's severed head going down on a different hot blond girl, and Marvin getting his brains blown all over the back of Chevy Nova.
You can still buy a copy of Song of the South or Birth of a Nation. I'm not too worried.

Also, yes, I believe you didn't become a scumbag because of '80s movies. Unfortunately, some people saw those movies and took the lesson that doing those sorts of things was fine. Some people, especially kids and teenagers, will absolutely assume certain views if those views are presented in a bunch of media that they watch.
Sexual assault, for example, is still a massive problem, and is still often passed off as "Boys will be boys", which is incredibly harmful and f'ed up.

Edit:
Quote
I can also laugh at a humorous depiction of a Nazi POW camp ... and Marvin getting his brains blown all over the back of Chevy Nova.
The Nazis are still the antagonists in that show, and the latter is presented as a negative development by anti-heroes that has to be dealt with. Context matters. The middle, I honestly don't know what film that is.
In those teen comedies, often the protagonists, who the audience are supposed to be supporting, are basically committing sexual assault, and it's played for a goof. I don't think it's wrong for someone to re-think that kind of thing critically.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 12:14:28 AM by TL »

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2019, 01:16:04 AM »
If you don't want to buy a ticket to see Robert Plant because he didn't check the ID of every girl that wanted to fuck him that's you're prerogative. I think it's silly, but whatever. If you decide to toss his albums on the fire because of it you're an idiot, though.

I remember something I've seen on those "best comebacks from celebrities" list, a reply from JK Rowling about someone wanting to burn the DVDs of Harry Potter:

"Well, the fumes of the DVDs might be toxic and I still have your money, so by all means go for it"  :lol
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2019, 08:03:29 AM »
The middle, I honestly don't know what film that is.

Stuart Gordon's Re-Animator (the first film in his loose HP Lovecraft trilogy, along with From Beyond and Castle Freak. They're all great, I recommend them. Nobody plays a mad drunken loon quite like Jeffrey Combs. Anyway, back on topic...).
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Offline jammindude

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2019, 07:17:44 PM »

You can still buy a copy of Song of the South or Birth of a Nation. I'm not too worried.


Not in the US you can't.   Not legally, anyway.
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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2019, 09:43:58 PM »

You can still buy a copy of Song of the South or Birth of a Nation. I'm not too worried.


Not in the US you can't.   Not legally, anyway.

https://www.amazon.com/Birth-Nation-Blu-ray-Nate-Parker/dp/B01LTHN5TK/ref=asc_df_B01LTHN5TK/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312193749052&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11877773137378795353&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1021449&hvtargid=pla-570866216798&psc=1

https://www.classicmoviesetc.com/song-of-the-south-disney-classic-dvd/?cmp_id=1507956861&adg_id=54859100541&kwd=&device=c

Soooooo Disney has authorized this release?    Remember....I said *legally*.   (and I knew Birth of a Nation was available...that's why I crossed it out before I responded.

For the record.   I own an illegal bootleg of Song of the South I bought at Comic Con a couple of years ago.   They sell it every year.   It's illegal....but it's there. 
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Offline Adami

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2019, 09:49:29 PM »
Itís legal. Google doesnít list illegal results on top page. Itís maybe not official Disney, but itís legally available.
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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2019, 09:55:43 PM »
Itís legal. Google doesnít list illegal results on top page. Itís maybe not official Disney, but itís legally available.

Don't see how The Mouse would allow it.   (and illegal bootlegs still sell for more)   So I'm honestly not sure how this happened. 

I mean, it's a Disney film.   Disney is not known for just letting other people freely sell their product. 
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2019, 09:14:19 PM »

You can still buy a copy of Song of the South or Birth of a Nation. I'm not too worried.


Not in the US you can't.   Not legally, anyway.

https://www.amazon.com/Birth-Nation-Blu-ray-Nate-Parker/dp/B01LTHN5TK/ref=asc_df_B01LTHN5TK/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312193749052&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11877773137378795353&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1021449&hvtargid=pla-570866216798&psc=1


I donít want to undermine your point, but thatís Nate Parkerís The Birth of a Nation from 2016, it shares a name and certain themes but itís not a remake, itís a different thing altogether.  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4196450/
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 09:20:08 PM by XeRocks81 »

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2019, 11:05:53 AM »
Also, yes, I believe you didn't become a scumbag because of '80s movies. Unfortunately, some people saw those movies and took the lesson that doing those sorts of things was fine. Some people, especially kids and teenagers, will absolutely assume certain views if those views are presented in a bunch of media that they watch.
Sexual assault, for example, is still a massive problem, and is still often passed off as "Boys will be boys", which is incredibly harmful and f'ed up.
Yeah, I see your point, but respectfully disagree with it.   As someone who was roughly the same age as the Nerd and the Hot Blonde, at the time, not only did I not think that getting a girl drunk so my friends could pork her was "ok", that whole existential message was totally lost.   I think a lot of this is hindsight and trying to find answers to questions we can't really answer.   Constructively banning (and by the way, I agree with el Barto 1000% on that point) "16 Candles" is a drop in the bucket compared to the lessons those kids learned from watching their mom and dad operate on the daily.     I suppose "every little bit helps", but this notion that "even ONE misogynist is too many!" is too unwieldly to manage.  By that standard, Jodie Foster should be banned, because someone murdered in her name.   This is the Judas Priest "suicide" case at heart, but with ideas not actions.

I also have started to wonder why the messages only seem to work ONE way.   I watched the preening and pontificating and preaching that went on at the political rally televised by CBS the other night (it might have been called "The Academy Awards" in your market) and I wrote here that it was so off-putting I had the thought that "I REALLY don't want to be like those people".  And they are ostensibly GOOD (at least they think so).  So why is that message okay, even if there are unintended consequences but this one movie from 1984 with what are actually somewhat ambivalent messages (the prom queen is still with the Nerd the next day, so it's not at all a given that it was a date rape, and the Hunk makes it clear he doesn't approve of the drunken tomfoolery... I'm not touching the Donger.)

« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 09:09:35 AM by Stadler »

Offline SystematicThought

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2019, 10:10:35 PM »
After the Ryan Adams news broke, I remembered how much I liked his last album Prisoner, which is oddly about his divorce from Mandy Moore. I've been listening to that album a lot since his whole scandal. I don't think he'll ever make another album again. I always thought it was common knowledge that he was emotionally and verbally abusive.

Anyways, when it comes to situations like this I go back to what Colin Quinn said when talking about the Founding Fathers being slave owners and sometimes you gotta look at the writing and not the person who wrote it. "It's like Phil Spector, sure he's a murderer, but "Be My Baby" is a pretty good song!
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2019, 07:53:44 AM »
I was going to make post about all of the Michael Jackson backlash but this thread seems similar enough. Does anyone else feel like MJ is getting crucified based on no solid proof? I mean it was never proven that he did anything and now you have radio stations not playing his music and the simpsons are pretty much deleting their MJ episode. Just seems wrong.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2019, 08:23:06 AM »
When there is this much smoke, regarding MJ, it seems hard not to believe that there was some fire.

Online El Barto

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2019, 08:31:17 AM »
When there is this much smoke, regarding MJ, it seems hard not to believe that there was some fire.
The problem is that as the incentive increases, so do the number of people who claim to see smoke.

I find that Corey kid's position interesting. He's spent years claiming that pedophiles outnumber the decent folk in Hollywood, and he'd tell you that MJ was pretty much the only person there that didn't try to bugger him.
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Online Stadler

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Re: #metoo and rock music
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2019, 09:11:31 AM »
When there is this much smoke, regarding MJ, it seems hard not to believe that there was some fire.
The problem is that as the incentive increases, so do the number of people who claim to see smoke.

I find that Corey kid's position interesting. He's spent years claiming that pedophiles outnumber the decent folk in Hollywood, and he'd tell you that MJ was pretty much the only person there that didn't try to bugger him.

Yeah, and to go half a step further, he HAS accused several of those executives of buggering HIM (and the other Corey, who, to some people's way of thinking, ultimately died as a result), so there's no "stigma" with him.  I feel like if MJ did fondle him, he'd say it.